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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Capcom should have made the glasses mechanic its own separate move where he throws the glasses like he does in RE5, and if it hits, he gets the buff permanently. If it whiffs/blocked, he has to put them back on via a sped up version of his taunt.
I really just want to throw sunglasses at people.
SolarKnight
Member
Start playing KoF
It's just not really increasing his damage by much with the speed boost alone. The real utility is just giving him more options in combo trees and giving him better conversions.
Frankly, I'd be fine if the entire buff system were removed, but I'd much rather leave the speed boost for that added versatility in Wesker's arsenal.
Karsticles
Member
I just don't see why a character who is already very good, and arguably a top character, is getting a free, unneeded buff while we nerf the rest of the top tiers. Let's not return the game to Wesker land like it was in early Ultimate.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
It's also a guaranteed chip move at the end of the match. There's no reason why a few characters can duck it and some can't.
Because Capcom decided to buff him in Ultimate for no real reason whatsoever, and while the speed boost opened up exciting new options, it being tied to a silly and arbitrary sunglasses mechanic is dumb.
What do people think about the Samurai Edge OTG piercing, or at least prioritizing the point character in a happy birthday situation? Dahbomb seems against it.
We are not increasing his damage, we aren't giving him any damage buff only speed buff.
Wesker is never going to go to Ultimate land. Even a nerfed Zero and Vergil trump Wesker right now. You forget that a lot more characters are getting buffed than nerfed. Wesker is NOT a top 10 character anymore. Without speed buff he will do bad damage overall, not just for meterless but for metered combos too.
The best thing you can change for Hulk is that you can reduce the command throw distance to the point where he can Gamma Wave over, call assist, use Gamma Wave to pick up. If he doesn't need an OTG to pick up after command throws that would be a huge buff for him because then he can use something like Haggar Lariat and Sentinel Drones.
Karsticles
Member
Why not put your opponent in blockstun and use it, like almost every other chip hyper.
I'm iffy about the OTG piercing. Wesker does have good happy birthday combos already.
I get that the speed buff wasn't needed, but I don't get why everyone thinks he should get it for free. If the speed buff was so unnecessary, then remove the glasses and the speed buff. No one has made an argument as to why Wesker should get a free speed buff outside of it upping his damage, but he's already rather high damage, and we're trying to make the game more reset-oriented. So much damage isn't a very convincing argument to me.
Speed Buff = Better Combos = Damage Buff.
DeadPhoenix9065
Member
Case closed in favor of the plaintiff.
Phoenix you're here by dubbed easiest character to anti in Marvel
And that's fine. It's balanced by the 20% health boost. You have to remember that without the glasses mechanic, his Phantom Dance is going to do pitiful damage now.
The character has 5% scaling on normals, every throw leads to horrid damage. He's only going to get decent damage off of clean hits. I would be shocked if new Wesker broke 650K in a combo solo.
The speed boost makes him an interesting character because he gets more involved combos.
You can actually completely negate Gimlet's chip if you were already put into blockstun. Get put in blockstun, Gimlet comes out, pushblock during the super freeze and bam. No damage. I've beaten a number of Hawkeyes this way trying to close it out with stuff like slide into Gimlet.
Same thing can actually happen with Bionic Lancer.
SolarPowered
Member
The Goddess will put the wannabe in his place.
Karsticles
Member
On that note, I have no idea what to do with Amaterasu. Aside from a damage buff.
perhaps, 1 sec.
Edit: Hopping on.
Buff meter gain assist.
Karsticles
Member
That's an easy one.
SolarPowered
Member
She is one of the few characters they got right since day one.
Wesker with 10% speed boost (no damage buff) would do like 540K-550K meterless damage (and this is off of fairly optimal damage). Because there is no damage buff, Phantom Dance will do 10% less damage at all times as in the current game as soon as the hyper screen activates the 10% buff is applied if it wasn't applied before. That's almost exactly the same damage as Wolverine does meterless only he would do more overall damage than Wesker because his hypers do more damage.
This is perfectly acceptable. No matter what you do, Wesker's hyper damage is going to be nerfed whether you apply the speed boost or not. His meterless damage will be slightly higher (a whopping 50K...). Instead of nerfing the interesting combos of Wesker and be subjected to seeing the same shit over and over again... just slightly nerf the damage on his LVL3.
I don't know what more justification is needed... unless people think 550K meterless damage is too high.
This is perfectly acceptable. No matter what you do, Wesker's hyper damage is going to be nerfed whether you apply the speed boost or not. His meterless damage will be slightly higher (a whopping 50K...). Instead of nerfing the interesting combos of Wesker and be subjected to seeing the same shit over and over again... just slightly nerf the damage on his LVL3.
I don't know what more justification is needed... unless people think 550K meterless damage is too high.
Karsticles
Member
We are making changes to fix up characters, not just because we can. I don't understand why Wesker needs this buff, and why it's not just some willy-nilly thing people are doing without any good reason at all. I repeat: there has not been an argument as to why this should happen.
You're arguing for why it wouldn't be a problem, but not why it needs to happen.
You're arguing for why it wouldn't be a problem, but not why it needs to happen.
I just did. Do you need cliff notes?
1) Whether you implement the speed boost or not, Wesker's LVL1 is DEFINITELY getting nerfed in damage. In previous game, even if you didn't have glasses on the damage buff was applied to the LVL1 all the time. This means that a glasses off NO BUFFS combo in the current game that did let's say 700K would do less damage like 20K less damage automatically in the new game.
2) There is bigger emphasis on doing longer, fancier combos rather than relying on the same old "glasses on" BnB. People want to see and use cool combos.. not the same dry combos since day 1 of the game.
3) With speed boost (no damage boost) Wesker will now do 550K meterless solo off of fairly optimal confirm. Wolverine does almost that much damage but will do significantly more damage because his hypers do more damage as compare to Wesker's.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
You, see. I wrote the whole SRK article during the 1st month of vanilla "Wesker is not overpowered", when EVERYONE was bitching about him. And look who turned out to be right?
Wesker was BARELY sighted in top 32, and the players still using him (Unknown, Roachking) he's holding them back.
Wesker is much worse than he was in vanilla because
he lost full screen gun->teleport->combo. He now has to get in to do damage.
Lost his three favorite assists (Tron, Haggar, Akuma) who were essential for fighting wolverine, magneto, zero.
Lost rhino charge
Lost DHC glitch where he was one of the few DHC glitch enders that built meter
And the game's went away from "RESET" gameplay because TAC's were MUCH better.
But he got the the glasses buff and the mashable phantom dance, which made that super do ridiculous, stupid damage.
So what do I propose?
We buff "Smart" wesker play and nerf "Dumb" Wesker play.
Wesker-
+Make counter super invincible till it counters again
This super is useless now. It already scaled the combo afterward bad enough to go right into a reset. They didn't nerf Taskmasters.
-Increase normals damage scaling, but less slightly less command grab/throw damage scaling.
Maybe not so much on the regular throw, but reward the command grabs. And nerf his base BBCS-BBCS damage, and thus force players to optimize his combos with more specials.
- make both forward and back airthrow kick full screen
make S -5 on block (from -1)
when wesker Finishes a block string w/ S... wesker can just continue offense with low B call assist->teleport.
At least make Wesker's hit confirm SOMETHING.
buff counters to come on faster, be even on block, followups be better.
- It's ok that they aren't guarunteed... but Wesker being UNSAFE after successful counters that aren't even guaranteed is way stupid.
They just don't work currently, which is sad because his RE5 inspiration uses a lot of counters in his fighting style. Anyway, here's what it is now:
LOW counter is 18f startup and -8... and launches straight up...
HIGH counter is 21f startup and -5
PROJECTILE COUNTER is 19 and -5. and then isn't even invincible till it hits.
What to do?
+Make all "successful" counters invincible for startup and active frames.
+Speed them up to 12f for low 16 for high and 13f for projectile.
+Make them only -3 on block.
+Have projectile counter go slightly further, and be immune to projectiles during 12 of the 24 recovery frames (it sucks to use projectile counter, counter one, go through, get blocked, and get pegged by another).
+Have Low counter launch up forward, so he can get BBCS off of it.
-Lenghthen recovery on WHIFFED counters from 11f to 16f. (projectile from 13 to 18f).
PHANTOM DANCE
-Make Maximum wesker not randomly cross up
-make him always land right next to opponent upon completion. This allows for more followups (cool!) and easier punishes (yay!)
- Remove the abillity to mash this super.
+Increase c.C's range so it doesn't not combo off max range cr. B.
+Buff J. B's vertical hitbox so it doesn't whiff in aircombos on small characters or Xfactor.
+Buff Jaguar Run somehow. Move is useless outside of a few combos. It's supposed to close the gap, but fails.
Here's a kinda far out there idea:
Make his teleport hyper cancelable.
This give him some more juice in basic air combos in setting up sweet spot phantom dance (bbc, gunshot, teleport, phantom)
High phantom dances also allows cool trickshots on landing
-This gives him OTG gunshot teleport phantom dance (without doing damn team super)
- Full screen gunshots now have a little bite back that he can gunshot teleport confirm into Phantom Dance (or Rhino Charge Xfactor... or if you're really lucky, level 3... but I doubt level 3's startup would allow it, which is probably very good).
Karsticles
Member
@Renegade: I think the counters should be positive on block. It's silly that a successful counter can lead to negative frame advantage.
Why, specifically, does the mechanic need to be changed? You've argued that it will help Wesker, and I don't disagree. It will obviously help him. I don't see why the mechanic needs to be changed at all, let alone buffed. Removing a whole character mechanic needs actual reasons for removing that mechanic. I think it's still a good mechanic. Right now what I've seen is this: "the glasses buff was dumb, so let's remove the glasses mechanic and give him half of the buff for free". There's a complete disconnect in logic and no case has been made for removing the glasses mechanic.
Sure is. She's pretty solid right now.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
Oh, for the record. I'm all for keeping speed boost, removing damage boost, and lowering xfactor damage minimum scaling threshold.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
The glasses mechanic is dumb because he only gets it through damage (unreliable, and often dies), or doing phantom dance.
And now people are randomly doing phantom dances to get glasses off. That's stupid.
Either remove the mechanic entirely, or
solution: make Wesker's taunt take his glasses off if he has them on.
And now people are randomly doing phantom dances to get glasses off. That's stupid.
Either remove the mechanic entirely, or
solution: make Wesker's taunt take his glasses off if he has them on.
Lmao, nah.
I get sudden team ideas and try them out but I usually end up going back to a Zero team, I might not this time! We'll see.
That's what I want.
Just have his 'put glasses on' taunt play in reverse if Capcom wants to be lazy about it!
If the mechanic is in place, people are going to throw out the hyper "randomly" during some assist call... get the trade and will get the full buff (damage plus speed). This is dumb, no one wants this to happen. This type of play should be discouraged instead the mechanic encourages it. Getting off 1 hyper in the game is a significant net bonus to your game. This also punishes Wesker + Phoenix play for no reason.. you know people still use that duo and they are hurt because they can't use that duo as effectively as it should be because Wesker's potential is locked behind a shitty mechanic. The mechanic also rewards bad play as it boosts your damage the lower your health is.
Now let's say we put in Wesker without the mechanic at all. What's the compensation for the overall damage lost on his LVL1 (that happens without the buff being applied before hand)? What's the compensation for losing your swag combos? What's the compensation for the overall health increase system wise? What's the compensation for no more buff stacking in XF? What's the compensation for the meter gain loss you get stuck with because you don't have access to your optimized combos?
The answer to this dilemma is simple.. you meet half way. Speed boost keeps the character interesting and removal of mechanic means Wesker/Phoenix players aren't punished for not having access to optimal combos that build more meter. You still lose the damage on the LVL1 but that's OK because now Wesker players will be more encouraged to go for reset rather than wasting bar on the LVL1 (unless it kills for sure). There is no artificial boost for getting beat up either.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
You're probably right.
As a point wesker main, I don't really want ask for TOO MUCH, you know?
How about +2? That'll allow for a low short/ kara command grab mixup.
If people are actually against Wesker doing more damage because of better combos... then just nerf his LVL3 damage. People are going to be avoiding doing his LVL1 anyway and will save for THCs or his LVL3. Nerfing the damage on his LVL3 a tad bit is a more effective nerf than taking away his good combos. His LVL3 already does a bit too much damage anyway.
Even more ridiculous is the fact he gets 15% boost on it with the glasses off. Does something like 520k with them off.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
Yeah, I'd give up the damage for speed any day. That's rewarding "smart' wesker players.
I'm fine with nerfing lvl3 damage, if the OTG time is increased a tad. It's a 1 frame link I think.
Honestly speaking all the changes to Wesker thus far have been "nerf dumb Wesker, buff smart Wesker". Buffs to his counters, nerf to glasses mechanic, nerf to launcher, nerf to Phantom Dance, buff to learning and using optimized combos. That's how it should be and that's how Viscant wants it as well.
Absolutely agreed.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
What do you all think about the hyper cancel on Teleport?
I don't like it mostly because you can bait teleport punishes with the Rhino Charge counter. Do a ground teleport raw, cancel into counter if you sense a punish. Do an air to ground teleport with someone waiting behind you, cancel into Rhino Charge.
If someone reads a teleport and punishes, that should be rewarded. There's already a lot of teleport play that is left uncontested in this game.
As a Wesker play I would like it... as a player of other characters who get bodied by teleporters I definitely don't.
The glasses buff was probably just an attempt to do something different and not be scientific about every little thing.
That's the only thing I worry about with some of your guys ideas.....and let me say, they've been well thought out for the vast majority of things, so I'm not hating.
Just make sure you remember to leave "fun" or whacky stuff in versus overbalancing the fun out.
E,g,, the glasses thing is so silly to rage about given his damage / speed / options.
That's the only thing I worry about with some of your guys ideas.....and let me say, they've been well thought out for the vast majority of things, so I'm not hating.
Just make sure you remember to leave "fun" or whacky stuff in versus overbalancing the fun out.
E,g,, the glasses thing is so silly to rage about given his damage / speed / options.
No one is raging, people are asking questions and stances are being defended.
I definitely like the wacky stuff. Wesker getting stuff like Low gun shot combos with speed boost is awesome, even if it's not optimized damage. However, getting a permanent boost for throwing out a random hyper or getting bonuses for getting damaged is not wacky... it's just flat out dumb. I wouldn't remove the mechanic if there was even a semblance of mind game or thought process involved in it.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
That is such a YOLO strategy, though. I kinda like it!
increase the recovery on the Rhino Charge if that's a worry. But I think it'll spice up his options a bit.
As I said, pie in the sky change.
Karsticles
Member
Damn that lag was bad. And you always duck out so fast, Onionfrog. 
GGs, but you leave me without a climax!
GGs, but you leave me without a climax!Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
Maybe taunt removing the glasses is the happy medium ? Take thought and setup to get the space, or anytime he kills a character.
Give her back her Vanilla hitstun so arf arf Paper arf arf arf works again maybe?
Sorry, have to go to bed so that I can get up early for work.Damn that lag was bad. And you always duck out so fast, Onionfrog.
Our connection has certainly gotten worse since you've moved. That's a shame since our connection used to be pretty solid.
If you want to play a long set, we'd really need to both be available at the same time on a Sunday. [i don't know how likely that'll be as I think you're in a different time zone now that you've moved to colorado
]Please no more nerfs to Rhino Charge.
Basically the amount of bad match ups that Wesker had almost doubled because of the Rhino Charge nerf. Pretty much everyone in the top 10 bodies him hardcore.
I don't think that will happen because he starts off the round with glasses on. So it would be redundant to taunt.
Maybe you start off with the buff but if you use a hyper or you get beat up you lose it. You then have to taunt to get back the glasses. Essentially the reverse of the glasses mechanic.
Renegade_Civil-War
Neo Member
I meant, if we allowed teleport hyper canceling + invincible rhino charge, it would need extra lag.
That's kind of my point, though. If it doesn't unbalance him, there's no reason to remove it. It *is* a whacky character trait for lack of a better term.
Your main argument for removing it is lack of thought, but not that it's overpowered.
I never said it's over powered. Wesker's cross up Phantom Dance isn't over powered neither is his -1 launcher but those two made it in the changelog because they encourage "dumb" play. I want the speed boost because that is just more fun and rewards execution. I want counters buffed because they reward skillful, read based play.
As a Wesker player, I don't like it, never did. I am putting my foot down on this one, I want the mechanic gone and replaced with just the 10% speed boost as standard. People can nerf the damage of his LVL3 for compensation but I am not budging on the sunglasses change. I have made my case for it enough as it is, if people can't see that train of thought then oh well... I can't say anything more that would convince people otherwise.
As a Wesker player, I don't like it, never did. I am putting my foot down on this one, I want the mechanic gone and replaced with just the 10% speed boost as standard. People can nerf the damage of his LVL3 for compensation but I am not budging on the sunglasses change. I have made my case for it enough as it is, if people can't see that train of thought then oh well... I can't say anything more that would convince people otherwise.