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[QisTopTier]

Hsien Ko getting health drain on Gold Armor? LOL WHAT???

Dude I can understand why. This version of Hsienko will be A LOT faster an unstopable fast ass character needs a penalty and it's only red health.

Honestly I think one of the biggest reasons she sucks now is because of that super.

Look at all the characters they thought were too good. They suck ass.

 

[Dahbomb]

I think he meant that it's supposed to heal her, not drain her.

On the input change... aren't her command throws already HCB? And wouldn't having QCB and a HCB moves overlap with each other? I mean that's why no other character has simultaneous HCB and QCB moves.

 

[QisTopTier]

I think he meant that it's supposed to heal her, not drain her.

Nah

Her red health begins to drain slowly if she is hit on point

Her red health, drains, if she is hit.

^

 

[Professor Beef]

Why are you nerfing a character who isn't even that top tier? He's one of the most honest characters in the game.

I can agree to health decrease of Task to 1 million but nothing more. Sentinel health is getting buffed, no need to arbitrarily swap health numbers.

First off, wtf at what you quoted me on, lmao

Secondly, my vindictive nerf wasn't meant to be taken seriously. That's why I labeled it as such.

 

[enzo_gt]

Really? I've never seen the M version used.

M version is great for pressuring while moving forward with Mighty Swing momentum. You essentially block out the bottom half or the screen as a no-go area.

 

[Dahbomb]

First off, wtf at what you quoted me on, lmao

Secondly, my vindictive nerf wasn't meant to be taken seriously. That's why I labeled it as such.

I know I saw that, I don't think he needs any nerfs even a health decrease... definitely not a Shield Skill nerf.

And ignore that quote message, I was studying stuff and copy/pasting that got copied on the clipboard.

 

[QisTopTier]

M version is great for pressuring while moving forward with Mighty Swing momentum. You essentially block out the bottom half or the screen as a no-go area.

Taskmaster is his own assist?

 

[smurfx]

taskmaster

i want his projectile counter to have way less recovery.
less recovery if i shoot a single arrow on the ground or in the air
can characters be left in the air after doing his counter hyper? would be nice to get a combo afterwards without the need of assists.

Haggar:
*f.H and j.f+H do 15% chip damage.
*Rapid Fire Fist now combos when fully mashed.
*c.H now recovers in 10 frames.
*Violent Axe cross-up is now better represented visually.
*Giant Haggar Press recovery reduced to 0; causes a hard knockdown; links into itself.

Assists: Double Lariat, Violent Axe H, c.H

pretty good list. only thing i would like but its not need is having his pipe destroy some projectile barriers like novas.

 

[QisTopTier]

taskmaster

i want his projectile counter to have way less recovery.
less recovery if i shoot a single arrow on the ground or in the air
can characters be left in the air after doing his counter hyper? would be nice to get a combo afterwards without the need of assists.

You mean like instead of flying backwards you want them to kind of stop mid air in a frozen state for a bit for a pop up or something?

 

[smurfx]

You mean like instead of flying backwards you want them to kind of stop mid air in a frozen state for a bit for a pop up or something?

when he shoots them in the end it pops them up and then you recover and you can shield skill your opponent or maybe hit them with H.

 

[Dahbomb]

taskmaster

i want his projectile counter to have way less recovery.
less recovery if i shoot a single arrow on the ground or in the air
can characters be left in the air after doing his counter hyper? would be nice to get a combo afterwards without the need of assists.

Good changes.

On the Counter Hyper you would have to make it so that the final gun shot causes a crumple stun like Wesker's hit on the counter. I think that would be a good change, makes sense going for the counter rather than getting only a single hyper from it most of the time.

 

[Tirael]

Nothing stops this patch

That's the thread title. I don't care if Capcom shits on the dream... nothing stops the momentum.

That's fantastic. And you're right, if there's anything a Mahvel fan has an overabundance of, it's hope.

 

[Karsticles]

I know I saw that, I don't think he needs any nerfs even a health decrease... definitely not a Shield Skill nerf.

And ignore that quote message, I was studying stuff and copy/pasting that got copied on the clipboard.

Swordmaster leads to an unblockable; no need to buff that, either.

+Pendulum cancels with "S" input (all versions) and results in VSav air momentum. Pendulum (all versions) can also be special canceled into henkyo-ki (all versions)

Added.

+Hsien-Ko's air momentum continues when you cancel an airdash with a jumping normal like in VSav

Added.

+Change command grab motion to HCB and change input for Henkyo-ki to QCB motion (all versions) like in VSav

The game has no overlapping inputs; I trust that they had issues with this, and I can't back it.

+Buff all Anki-hou items to 3 low projectile points and map the bomb (with hitbox) to "S" button. Every fourth item is a dizzy. All dizzies have 5 low projectile durability points.

I don't agree that the projectiles should randomly have more durability points. That is a bad kind of random. I think it's more interesting if her item tosses are random, too.

+Anki-hou can be special canceled into henkyo-Ki (all versions) and vice versa. Only works on the ground

Then you will have an infinite string of cancels.

+More frame advantage off standing, air and command throw. For post throw combos

She can already get full combos off of her standing throw. Agreed on the other two.

+Crouching Heavy has OTG property. It travels slightly faster and farther

Agreed.

+Buff normal air/ground dash and walk speeds by 10%

Needs to be more than that.

+Reduce startup of Rimoukon to 10 frames. Her red health begins to drain slowly if she is hit on point

No. It needs to be hard to earn.

+Lower start up of Chireitou to 20+3. It should also carry both point and assist characters on hit

Why?

+Improve horizontal hitbox on standing and jumping launcher

I think if we change c.H, this won't be necessary.

Hsien-ko:
*Air dash speed increased three-fold; aerial momentum retained after attack-canceling.
*Senpu Bu now dash, Henkyo Ki, and j.S-cancelable.; startup reduced by 10 frames (all versions).
*Time bomb item throw remapped to qcf.S.
*Item throw durability increased to 3.
*Henkyo Ki now +5 on block at close range; active frames increased by 50% (all levels).
*Canceled ground dash now always behaves the same as her plink dash.
*Ground attacks dash cancelable.
*Ground dash invincible on frames 10 – 25; dash takes 30 total frames to complete; distance unchanged.
*Houten Geki and her air throw now lead to full combos via c.H follow-up.
*Walk speed increased to Morrigan levels.
*c.H now OTGs and is jump-cancelable; travels faster and slightly farther.
*Chireitou startup reduced to 20+3, now carries two characters.

Assists: Senpu Bu L, Henkyo Ki H, Anki Hou S

Good changes.

On the Counter Hyper you would have to make it so that the final gun shot causes a crumple stun like Wesker's hit on the counter. I think that would be a good change, makes sense going for the counter rather than getting only a single hyper from it most of the time.

Nah, it should throw them into the air, but on a spinning knockdown. Taskmaster can wavedash into Shield Skills to follow up. Keep it interesting.

 

[QisTopTier]

Actually you know what, make Taskmasters projectile counter work vs Beams without him getting hit out of the damn thing. What's the point of having a projectile counter when it only works vs select ones.

 

[Karsticles]

taskmaster

i want his projectile counter to have way less recovery.

Give me frame data please.

less recovery if i shoot a single arrow on the ground or in the air

Frame data.

can characters be left in the air after doing his counter hyper? would be nice to get a combo afterwards without the need of assists.

I am not opposed to this or something similar. I don't get why Taskmaster's is worse than Wesker's.

pretty good list. only thing i would like but its not need is having his pipe destroy some projectile barriers like novas.

Why not just have it destroy projectiles? I like it!

 

[Azure J]

Hsien-Ko time? AWWWWW YISSS

+ Walk speed increased; startup on forward ground dash decreased; Increased speed and forward momentum on her aerial dashes
+ c.H now given OTG and jump cancel properties
+ Item Toss (Anki Hou) item internal logic now revamped to follow a set pattern determining stun items (represented [2 random items - 1 warning item - X] where X represents an item that will stun)
+ Pendulum Swing (Senpu Bu) now cancellable with S input leaving Hsien-Ko in a neutral aerial state. She retains forward momentum based upon the length of time swinging before cancel; Pendulum swing can also be cancelled once into Gong (Henkyo-Ki) special
+ Bombs (Chuukudan) removed from standard Anki Hou item rotation and are now mapped to new input QCF+S; Bombs have a hit box and explosion can OTG
+ Grounded Henkyo-Ki (Gong; all versions) are cancellable once into Senpu Bu (all versions)
+ Blender (Houten-Geki) command grab generate more frame advantage for post grab combos
+ Improved horizontal hitbox on her s.S and j.S
+ Chiretou super fixed to juggle point and assists on knockdown
- Gold Armor (Rinkumon) active frames on point decreased by a quarter; character takes 1.5x damage on point during the duration of the super

Assists: Henkyo-Ki H, Senpu-Bu L, Anki Hou S

Edit: I really had to steal a lot of suggestions made here because they're just TOO good. My buffs would make her functional, these all together would make her competitive.

 

[smurfx]

Why not just have it destroy projectiles? I like it!

i wanted this but i thought it might be asking too much.

 

[Karsticles]

i wanted this but i thought it might be asking too much.

Nah, it takes a lot of skill and confidence to whack a projectile out of the air. If the game had coding for it, I would have the pipe reflect the projectile at an angle and bounce around, haha. I think it will be good only situationally; I don't think it will cause problems.

 

[QisTopTier]

i wanted this but i thought it might be asking too much.

It's not, would make it so zoners have to play smater vs him than being able to keep him out for free. Though it just straight up eating every projectile it comes across would be WAY TOO GOOD, as in wacking a beam/plus sent drones all in one go.

Honestly if you wanted something better why not make violent axe work like berserker slash and let it go through projectiles

 

[GuardianE]

Pipe destroying projectiles? C'mon. It can't be that simple. Not for a move with that many active frames.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Taskmaster kind of feels just right at the moment, but a projectile counter buff would increase his options quite a bit. Mobility is probably the biggest thing preventing him from entering the top tiers. More Aegis Counter follow-up options could be nasty His activation frames are better than Wesker's at the moment, because he has too many invincibility frames on it since Ultimate, but Wesker does get free combo damage when it connects.

 

[smurfx]

Give me frame data please.


Frame data.

projectile counter

start up 5
active 20
recovery 20

don't think it says what the recovery is for a single arrow.

 

[Karsticles]

It's not, would make it so zoners have to play smater vs him than being able to keep him out for free. Though it just straight up eating every projectile it comes across would be WAY TOO GOOD, as in wacking a beam/plus sent drones all in one go

Pipe destroying projectiles? C'mon. It can't be that simple. Not for a move with that many active frames.

Why would you use Plasma Beam and call drones right in front of Haggar's face?

Keep in mind that our system changes already nerfed the pipe because you can't OS it with an air throw anymore.

Haggar:
*f.H and j.d+H do 15% chip damage; both now negate low and medium priority projectiles.
*Rapid Fire Fist now combos when fully mashed.
*c.H now recovers in 10 frames.
*Violent Axe cross-up is now better represented visually.
*Giant Haggar Press recovery reduced to 0; causes a hard knockdown; links into itself.

Assists: Double Lariat, Violent Axe H, c.H

projectile counter

start up 5
active 20
recovery 20

don't think it says what the recovery is for a single arrow.

I mean tell me what you want the data to be - I have the guide.

 

[Dahbomb]

Swordmaster leads to an unblockable; no need to buff that, either.

I would honestly remove the whole Swordmaster unblockable shit and just have the simple Swordmaster hit, have it be an overhead. No follow up attacks, sends them spinning a bit so you have to link a normal after it to combo after it.

Swordmaster unblockables are effectively useless as you need two assists for it or one assists + a specific hyper to set it up. There are in no way comparable to a FB or Viper unblockable mostly because the series that starts the unblockable puts the character in a state where Task needs an assist to pick him up. So you have to use an assist to lock them down and then an assist to pick up with. This severely limits team construction with Taskmaster, he would much rather have zoning assists or GTFO asssts that can also help him combo extend.

The follow up series doesn't even matter, it's pure fluff.

 

[FSLink]

Just wait until you see my Haggar changes.

+ Haggar now has flight mode and can flight cancel pipe


Done.

 

[smurfx]

Why would you use Plasma Beam and call drones right in front of Haggar's face?

Keep in mind that our system changes already nerfed the pipe because you can't OS it with an air throw anymore.

Haggar:
*f.H and j.d+H do 15% chip damage; both now negate low and medium priority projectiles.
*Rapid Fire Fist now combos when fully mashed.
*c.H now recovers in 10 frames.
*Violent Axe cross-up is now better represented visually.
*Giant Haggar Press recovery reduced to 0; causes a hard knockdown; links into itself.

Assists: Double Lariat, Violent Axe H, c.H


I mean tell me what you want the data to be - I have the guide.

5-7 frames recovery?

 

[GuardianE]

Why would you use Plasma Beam and call drones right in front of Haggar's face?

With that ginormous hitbox, you can't be that liberal with projectile nullification.

Yeah, yeah, I know: Vergil. But he's unsafe on whiffing normals, and his air normals don't cover nearly as much space as pipe while allowing him to move forward.

I do think he needs a way to get around projectiles, but I don't think that's it. Maybe have Violent Axe have some projectile invincibility?

 

[Karsticles]

Wesker's projectile counter is 5/13/13, so 5/20/20 makes some sense. I'm reluctant to reduce the recovery too much without reducing the active frames. Otherwise it becomes a little spammy.

With that ginormous hitbox, you can't be that liberal with projectile nullification.

Yeah, yeah, I know: Vergil. But he's unsafe on whiffing normals, and his air normals don't cover nearly as much space as pipe while allowing him to move forward.

Dormammu's s.S and s.M nullify projectiles, Sentinel's s.S nullifies projectiles, and Vergil's s.H nullifies projectiles. I don't think giving it to the pipe is crazy. He could use it for a few matchups.

 

[Frantic]

Haggar:
*f.H and j.d+H do 15% chip damage; both now negate low and medium priority projectiles.
*Rapid Fire Fist now combos when fully mashed.
*c.H now recovers in 10 frames.
*Violent Axe cross-up is now better represented visually.
*Giant Haggar Press recovery reduced to 0; causes a hard knockdown; links into itself.

Assists: Double Lariat, Violent Axe H, c.H

wait what?

 

[Dahbomb]

I honestly see nothing wrong with Haggar projectile negation on Pipe. Tron has it on her normals too. As does Sentinel.

 

[Karsticles]

wait what?

ROLLEH POLLEH!

I honestly see nothing wrong with Haggar projectile negation on Pipe. Tron has it on her normals too. As does Sentinel.

Ah yes, and Tron. Her j.H and j.S negate it, and j.S is better than the pipe.

 

[Frantic]

ROLLEH POLLEH!

I need more info on this, because cr.H has 49 frames of recovery atm.

Do you mean he can roll 10 frames into recovery or something?

 

[Karsticles]

I need more info on this, because cr.H has 49 frames of recovery atm.

Do you mean he can roll 10 frames into recovery or something?

c.H is only used for two reasons:
1) The OTG; this would have no effect on that.
2) Rolling across the screen to get through projectiles; this change would buff that.

Basically, c.H, roll, c.H, roll, c.H roll!

 

[GuardianE]

c.H is only used for two reasons:
1) The OTG; this would have no effect on that.
2) Rolling across the screen to get through projectiles; this change would buff that.

Basically, c.H, roll, c.H, roll, c.H roll!

Why don't you just give him a roll, then?

Dormammu's s.S and s.M nullify projectiles, Sentinel's s.S nullifies projectiles, and Vergil's s.H nullifies projectiles. I don't think giving it to the pipe is crazy. He could use it for a few matchups.

None of those are safe on whiff except Dorm's s.M, which doesn't have nearly as impressive a hitbox. Pipe can be canceled and has quick recovery.

I don't think Tron's j.S is as good as pipe.

 

[QisTopTier]

I still just say give violent axe projectile immunity or something

 

[Karsticles]

Why don't you just give him a roll, then?

We're not adding new moves to characters. It's better to buff an existing feature than to add a new one.

I still just say give violent axe projectile immunity or something

Noooooo! It already moves really fast.

 

[Frantic]

c.H is only used for two reasons:
1) The OTG; this would have no effect on that.
2) Rolling across the screen to get through projectiles; this change would buff that.

Basically, c.H, roll, c.H, roll, c.H roll!

Yes, but if you make the cr.H have 10 frames of recovery(down from 49), he can just cr.H OTG, recover in ten frames, cr.H OTG, recover in ten frames, cr.H OTG etc etc. It'd be an infinite.

If you mean he can roll 10 frames into recovery, that's completely different. Needs clarification.

 

[smurfx]

Wesker's projectile counter is 5/13/13, so 5/20/20 makes some sense. I'm reluctant to reduce the recovery too much without reducing the active frames. Otherwise it becomes a little spammy.

can't wesker hit you if he lands his projectile counter? task doesn't get too much out of it which is why i want less recovery.

 

[GuardianE]

I still just say give violent axe projectile immunity or something

I do think he needs a way to get around projectiles, but I don't think that's it. Maybe have Violent Axe have some projectile invincibility?

Yep.

We're not adding new moves to characters. It's better to buff an existing feature than to add a new one.

But he already has the animation. He literally rolls after his dropkick.

 

[Dahbomb]

Yes, but if you make the cr.H have 10 frames of recovery(down from 49), he can just cr.H OTG, recover in ten frames, cr.H OTG, recover in ten frames, cr.H OTG etc etc. It'd be an infinite.

If you mean he can roll 10 frames into recovery, that's completely different. Needs clarification.

Can't he already do that? I mean I am pretty sure he has a simple cr.H infinite in XF.

 

[Karsticles]

Projectile invincible Violent Axe is far too good. It is basically a comboable Charging Star then. Keep in mind that there was a point Haggar in top 8 at Evo - we don't want to change him too much.

Yes, but if you make the cr.H have 10 frames of recovery(down from 49), he can just cr.H OTG, recover in ten frames, cr.H OTG, recover in ten frames, cr.H OTG etc etc. It'd be an infinite.

If you mean he can roll 10 frames into recovery, that's completely different. Needs clarification.

Touche:
*c.H can now be canceled into a roll on the first frame of recovery.

can't wesker hit you if he lands his projectile counter? task doesn't get too much out of it which is why i want less recovery.

Wesker gets a change at hitting you (you've usually recovered), and Taskmaster reflects the projectile. The difference being that Taskmaster can shut down some game plans with his move, but Wesker can't. I'm curious what other people think about this.

 

[QisTopTier]

Noooooo! It already moves really fast.

Wolverine

 

[smurfx]

aren't you guys buffing weskers counters?

 

[Karsticles]

Wolverine

Not projectile invincible...if anything, he's a good example of why this is not okay. Berserker Slash made keepaway impossible.

aren't you guys buffing weskers counters?

You can check the list yourself, FYI.

And the counters themselves didn't get buffs, just the follow-ups. In their current form the follow-up is actually negative on block, and that's just dumb.

 

[Uncle AJ]

Damn you guys blew through MODOK so fast. Mind if I suggest a few changes? MODOK player here.

+ Increase untechable time on forward air throw. Right now this is his only throw that he can't convert off of unless it's as CLOSE to the ground as possible.
+ Killer Illumination has 0 frame startup after the super flash. Now works as a proper reversal like say Thor's grab hyper, so characters pushing buttons in his face can't just make themselves safe by jumping, super-cancelling, or XF cancelling.
- Characters overlapping with MODOK's Barrier should no longer be protected by the Barrier even if their hurtbox extends out in front of it.
- Either remove the low-hitting property or decrease the number of active frames on the cr.M puddle. Right now he can use this to set up cheesy unblockables on incoming. He can also whiff cancel cr.M into Psionic Blaster to pretty much always keep himself safe if Blaster gets stuffed... that needs to go.

 

[Dahbomb]

Taskmaster should honestly have better counters. They may have better active frames but he needs assists to combo off of them. The projectile counter is OK at best, it doesn't shut down any of the more powerful zoning options in the game. It doesn't stop Morrigan AV, doesn't stop Dorm zoning, Hawkeye zoning... it's best function is really reflecting Buster back at Zero and that's a HUGE risk vs little reward compared to what Zero is doing which is low risk/huge reward.

You either improve the counters in frame data or allow Task to combo off of them solo.

 

[QisTopTier]

Projectile invincible Violent Axe is far too good. It is basically a comboable Charging Star then. Keep in mind that there was a point Haggar in top 8 at Evo - we don't want to change him too much.

And this version of haggar wont be touch of deathing people. Point haggar is strong right now because one tap off any of his big ass hit boxes leads to a kill, take that away and well.

If anything just make the Weak and/or Medium one projectile immune

 

[Deleted member 13876]

I would honestly remove the whole Swordmaster unblockable shit and just have the simple Swordmaster hit, have it be an overhead. No follow up attacks, sends them spinning a bit so you have to link a normal after it to combo after it.

Swordmaster unblockables are effectively useless as you need two assists for it or one assists + a specific hyper to set it up. There are in no way comparable to a FB or Viper unblockable mostly because the series that starts the unblockable puts the character in a state where Task needs an assist to pick him up. So you have to use an assist to lock them down and then an assist to pick up with. This severely limits team construction with Taskmaster, he would much rather have zoning assists or GTFO asssts that can also help him combo extend.

The follow up series doesn't even matter, it's pure fluff.

I personally never used it in the 2000+ games I used Task, so I would be okay with that change. Thought it had some hidden usefulness I wasn't exploiting as I knew I could set it up with Dark Hole but rarely ever bothered. Better counters fits with the characters photographic memory and reflexes. I've only seen WhiteBlack use the projectile counters in tournaments where he did have some success with it.

 

[SolarPowered]

The game has no overlapping inputs; I trust that they had issues with this, and I can't back it.

I don't have much faith in people who said Frank couldn't make it because of RAM or something.

I don't agree that the projectiles should randomly have more durability points. That is a bad kind of random. I think it's more interesting if her item tosses are random, too.

This is not a random change. Her old items in VSav had enough projectile durability to clash with Soul fists and Demitri's fireball. Here in MvC3 they've been nerfed to 1 low projectile durability point. Ryu's and Morrigan's fireballs both have 5 low projectile durability points (FIVE times the durability) and Morrigan can cancel hers safely. Her items ARE TERRIBLE compared to how they used to be in VSav in good old fashioned fireball fights. Also, her dizzies would come out after an Akuma doll toss (iirc) so there was an actual strategy in how many items you threw. That is how players like Kajoq managed to make Hsien-Ko work well in VSav. They'd throw a ton of items until they got the Akuma doll and they'd get ready to mash TRH inputs like their lives depend on it so they can get some dizzy unblockables. Right now her dizzy gameplan is the equivalent of a hail mary play every.single.time. There is no thought or rhyme to it.

Then you will have an infinite string of cancels.

Good point

It should be one can cancel into the other, but not both ways. Personally I'd go with Anki-hou being canceled into Henkyo Ki. Her anki hou is SHIT. I'd actually be okay with skipping on this if you took my advice on the item durability and dizzies, but she needs something big to fix her anki-hou if you aren't going to add an actual gameplan to her dizzies and item durability.

Needs to be more than that.

What is she supposed to play like when X-factor gets activated? I'm lobbying for some sensible changes here.

Note: Ten percent increase is slightly less than UMvC3 XF1 speed btw.

No. It needs to be hard to earn.

So you won't even consider nerfing it? That red health may come back to bite you in the ass.

Why?

It is slow and she assist characters drop out of the super when she gets a happy birthday.

I think if we change c.H, this won't be necessary.

Her launcher is ass, but it doesn't need fixing that bad. The list was from top to bottom in importance.

 

[Dahbomb]

Damn you guys blew through MODOK so fast. Mind if I suggest a few changes? MODOK player here.

+ Increase untechable time on forward air throw. Right now this is his only throw that he can't convert off of unless it's as CLOSE to the ground as possible.
+ Killer Illumination has 0 frame startup after the super flash. Now works as a proper reversal like say Thor's grab hyper, so characters pushing buttons in his face can't just make themselves safe by jumping, super-cancelling, or XF cancelling.
- Characters overlapping with MODOK's Barrier should no longer be protected by the Barrier even if their hurtbox extends out in front of it.
- Either remove the low-hitting property or decrease the number of active frames on the cr.M puddle. Right now he can use this to set up cheesy unblockables on incoming. He can also whiff cancel cr.M into Psionic Blaster to pretty much always keep himself safe if Blaster gets stuffed... that needs to go.

I can agree with the cr.M nerf because we did that to Dorm. However cr.M into Psionic Blaster is essential for the character, he gets bodied hardcore by short characters. That's a very important tool for him in certain match ups. On the KI change... you can't compare it to Thor's because 1) Thor doesn't get a combo off of it like MODOK does and 2) it has way more range.

Wow Karst just pulled the EVO card on Haggar... that shit is low especially compared to Dorm who not only had 3 appearances in that same EVO but won the previous EVO. The double standards here are insane!