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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
SRK's are bad motions? Unless you mean it's literally backwards like df, d, f
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
Same. On the one hand it's something unique no other character really has, but ultimately it just gets in the way of better combos.
Karsticles
Member
It's not harder than an SRK motion. Play a few thousand matches with Dormammu and you'll never sweat an SRK motion again. ;-)
Karsticles
Member
I figured out a solution to the Taskmaster problem:
Taskmaster:
*Aim Master (uncharged) recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board.
*Aegis Counter now causes a spinning knockdown; can be followed up by wave dashing into a full combo.
*Guard Master (all versions) recovery reduced to 10.
*Sword Master (all versions) is now an overhead: follow-ups are no longer unblockable; final follow-up is launcher cancelable; follow-ups for L and H versions swapped.
Assists: Aim Master L (Hold), Aim Master H (Hold), Charging Star
Taskmaster:
*Aim Master (uncharged) recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board.
*Aegis Counter now causes a spinning knockdown; can be followed up by wave dashing into a full combo.
*Guard Master (all versions) recovery reduced to 10.
*Sword Master (all versions) is now an overhead: follow-ups are no longer unblockable; final follow-up is launcher cancelable; follow-ups for L and H versions swapped.
Assists: Aim Master L (Hold), Aim Master H (Hold), Charging Star
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I know he has great resets which is why I was saying that aspect of him would need to be improved a bit if he cant go for raw damage. The pipe thing still doesn't work though.
That's negated by you killing them just as fast on chip as before while they have to land an additional hit to TOD in most cases... that was the whole point of the chip % increase to bring parity with old version to the new version despite health differential. High damage combos are specifically nerfed in this version... aside from Missiles there are very few zoning tactics that were straight up nerfed in fact I can't seem to think of any really. There are more semi invincible assists as well to counter straight up rushdown. There's a character who can now chip on block from his normals.
The biggest destroyer of zoner in the game was Vergil.. and he got his biggest tool nerfed big time. Him being nerfed puts so many zoners on the map again like Hawkeye, Strange and Arthur who are getting big buffs.
The argument that zoning is weaker in this version is weak and in fact, mostly false. I don't think zoning is BETTER than rushdown right now straight up but there is no way in hell is it the same or worse than in the current game.
I don't understand this change. Why the hell would anyone want to use the H version now? More start up yet less follow ups?
And there was no change to the start up frames on the overhead. The only reason why it had huge start up before was that it led to unblockables, now it doesn't.
SolarPowered
Member
Backwards
Regular SRK is something anyone who walks forward should get. If they made a game where you spent more time walking backwards reverse DP would make more sense to people.
The motion itself sucks, but it'd be okay if it were attached to a move that warranted the extra execution. Her supers are easier to pull off than Henkyo-Ki. It feels downright weird when you think about that disparity.
Karsticles
Member
There is only one successful zoning combination, and that is [character] + Hidden Missiles. Hidden Missiles is also the only assist Dormammu and Morrigan can successfully zone with. Nothing we have added replaces it, either. I don't think it's clear that zoning is better now at all.
Precisely. The L version is going to be easier to drop because it has more follow-ups to memorize and link!
Reverse SRK is just an SRK facing the other way. Unless you have problems playing on the P2 side, it shouldn't be any harder.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
That's the worst change ever. It's the start up that differentiates the two along with more damage after the unblockable. You are giving L version more damage AND better start up.
Basically this is the only version of Swordmaster that makes sense to me.
L Swordmaster - Start up 21 frames on the overhead, less follow ups for less damage
M Swordmaster - Start up 23 frames on the overhead, more follow ups for more damage
H Swordmaster - Start up 25 frames on the overhead, most follow ups for most damage
Second to last hit is cancelable into launcher, last hit does unscaled damage and allows for follow ups with assists
Karsticles
Member
Mystic Ray does not let Dormammu zone against most of the cast. It's actually better for him as a rushdown tool.
More damage will be getting to your launcher sooner, not later. The follow-ups just waste HSD time.
I'm open to other suggestions, but I'm not closed on Taskmaster until we have something that makes all 3 versions usable.
biosnake20
Member
I don't like the assist change for Task. He should keep the M arrows. Or give him a spidey swing assist that wallbounces
lol
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
That works. Keeps the follow-ups, keeps the skill element of inputting them right and let's you combo properly afterwards.
Some things on Taskmaster.
First of all, lowering Aim Master's uncharged recovery by 15 frames results in basically equal framedata to the charged version, and it'd be 0 on block for the L version. Considering the startup difference(13 vs 21) that's a bit too much I feel. Change it to a ten(or maybe 8) frame reduction so it's not safe point blank, but still relatively safe compared to before.
Second, I like Sword Master being unblockable.
I have landed it dozens of times with Jam Session vs an incoming Vergil. >_>
And finally, his original assist pool is fine. Shield Skills would be a much worse assist than the M Aim Master.
First of all, lowering Aim Master's uncharged recovery by 15 frames results in basically equal framedata to the charged version, and it'd be 0 on block for the L version. Considering the startup difference(13 vs 21) that's a bit too much I feel. Change it to a ten(or maybe 8) frame reduction so it's not safe point blank, but still relatively safe compared to before.
Second, I like Sword Master being unblockable.
I have landed it dozens of times with Jam Session vs an incoming Vergil. >_>And finally, his original assist pool is fine. Shield Skills would be a much worse assist than the M Aim Master.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Karsticles
Member
I think it's better as an unblockable, but I don't really care. I'd love to hear people argue about it more.Some things on Taskmaster.
First of all, lowering Aim Master's uncharged recovery by 15 frames results in basically equal framedata to the charged version, and it'd be 0 on block for the L version. Considering the startup difference(13 vs 21) that's a bit too much I feel. Change it to a ten frame reduction so it's not safe point blank, but still relatively safe compared to before.
Second, I like Sword Master being unblockable.
Here is my proposed Taskmaster change
L Swordmaster - Start up 21 frames on the overhead, most follows up for more HSD
M Swordmaster - Start up 23 frames on the overhead, less follow ups for less HSD
H Swordmaster - Start up 25 frames on the overhead, least follows up for least HSD
Second to last hit is cancelable into launcher, last hit does unscaled damage and allows for follow ups with assists.
If you make the unblockable too good then you get the same Firebrand/Viper bull shit all over again. If you don't make it too good (like what it is now), it's a shitty gimmick. That's just how unblockables are... they are a bad mechanic and nearly impossible to balance properly.
L Swordmaster - Start up 21 frames on the overhead, most follows up for more HSD
M Swordmaster - Start up 23 frames on the overhead, less follow ups for less HSD
H Swordmaster - Start up 25 frames on the overhead, least follows up for least HSD
Second to last hit is cancelable into launcher, last hit does unscaled damage and allows for follow ups with assists.
You wouldn't rather having a standing overhead on Taskmaster? The unblockable is extremely situational, a standing overhead is way more useful.Second, I like Sword Master being unblockable.
If you make the unblockable too good then you get the same Firebrand/Viper bull shit all over again. If you don't make it too good (like what it is now), it's a shitty gimmick. That's just how unblockables are... they are a bad mechanic and nearly impossible to balance properly.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Only if felicia's rolling buckler assist doesn't pop up anymore
But yeah honestly the swordmaster stuff isn't too bad it makes rushdown Tasky a lot stronger while removing unblockable situations *there are still some though*
It'd be okay, but I feel like I wouldn't get as many throws with him if he had one. It'd just make people start up backing more! He also has fuzzy setups with assist. Plus, I do this sometimes.
It rarely actually connects for me, though. >_>;
I just feel like Taskmaster is more or less perfect, and giving him an overhead is kinda... eh. I don't know how to describe it, but it just doesn't feel like it should happen.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I didnt see the chris changes I was out, did his fire grenades get nerfed when he gained an overhead?
Edit: NOPE LOL holy shit why
Well, it'd give them more reason to upback than they have now!
Yes, and I honestly don't like that change much either. *shrug*
Karsticles
Member
Nothing is officially closed out until we take an official vote. We just move on when it seems like no one has anything more to contribute.
Did we drop the "once on the ground, once in the air" Pendulum - Henkyo-Ki and vice versa cancels for Hsien? I really liked that change if only because of how hilarious it would be putting up mini-Aegis Reflectors in patterns that would literally hard counter Soul Fist L/M - Fly - Soul Fist H.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I keep wanting to test things. Guess I'm just riding out the withdrawal symptoms.
Nope lol. Although it's not a super fast overhead. All of the changes are in the front page by the way (3rd post of the OT).
Alright on the topic of Haggar, I think projectile invulnerability on Pipe is a mistake. Mostly because he is going to be using it to nullify beam/arrow assists of rushdown characters. Haggar was good in the previous games because he mauled rushdown characters... this tool makes the match ups even worse. How the hell is Felicia going to get in on Haggar now.. he nullifies the beam with pipe and then can Lariat on reaction to any approach. The utility against someone like Dorm is extremely limited, I mean what the hell is projectile invulnerable Pipe going to do against Pillars, Meteors and Stalking Flare? That is still a 9-1 match up free, right now Iron Fist has a better chance of getting in and apply pressure than Haggar. If we improved IF considerably in that weakness we can definitely do the same.
Right now I am looking at the other suggestions and the only 2 suggestions that make sense to me are projectile invulnerability on Violence Axe L (not M or H that's too good) and a better roll.
On the roll thing, Haggar still can't do shit about stuff like Flame Carpet. He can't get in on Nova when the shield is up, he can't get in on Chris when mines are up. The roll does not have invincibility like other characters who have a proper roll (like Cap, Felicia, Frank etc). The start up of the Roll has to have some invincibility for this to be a viable tactic, otherwise this is just meh. You can reduce the ability to spam this because quite frankly what the hell is spamming cr.H into roll going to do against Grav Shield?
The other suggestion is the Violent Axe. Now before people pull their hair out over this suggestion.. hear me out. Violent Axe L is mostly a combo tool and a mix up tool. For advance negation, pressure and frame trap the other Violence axes are used. Obviously Violence Axe on either M or H is too good to have projectile invul. on because they go quite far and they are safe on block. Now everyone should've noticed by now that Karst nerfed Violent Axe hit box so it's not as easy to cross under. This hit box nerf makes it so that it's going to be easier to hit him out of the move. This makes the mix ups he get off of Violent Axe L less effective and in general a worse move. For compensation, the "flip around" portion of the move should dodge projectiles so that this move actually has some utility. To balance this, it would have to go from 0 frame on block to -8 on block so you can bait this and punish it. The distance covered on this move is not good, not even comparable to Rising Fang or Cap's charging star. The active frame of the 'dodge' is not even that much, it would be somewhere in the middle and you would be able to punish it on recovery with your projectile. The change basically allows him to go through some barriers but it's not going to allow him to stay in especially since it's now minus on block.
Basically without either of these two moves (or similar), Haggar is not a good character in the new game. He is one of those characters where you don't even need missiles to zone him, you just need a stationary trap that he has to jump into to negate. That's why Trish bodies him, that's why Nova bodies him, that's why Dorm bodies him. His options are pretty much garbage in these match ups.
I will not allow Haggar to go through the patch without a legitimate way to get around stuff that he has no answer for. I think having high risk/low reward options are better than having no option at all.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Thank you DahBomb for putting what I was thinking into full detail. I suck at writing out things I think clearly and that's pretty much exactly what I was thinking
"God's Beard!"
Member
I don't know why Haggar is vulnerable rolling out of 2H. I so thought I could troll projectile characters with it too.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73105326]I don't know why Haggar is vulnerable rolling out of 2H. I so thought I could troll projectile characters with it too.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much yeah. You have to improve it so that it's actually a legitimate roll, not this shitty poor man roll. He can barely even do it on command as it is. Allowing him to spam it more is not going to solve it, he covers enough distance with it as it is.
Pretty much yeah. You have to improve it so that it's actually a legitimate roll, not this shitty poor man roll. He can barely even do it on command as it is. Allowing him to spam it more is not going to solve it, he covers enough distance with it as it is.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Which is why I was saying letting him set it up for free vs projectiles is too good. But nerfing the range on it to make up for it being good for projectiles fucks up one of his mix up games which he vastly needs to keep in this version
Is this list as far as you got?
I think most people are salty about point Doom getting easy relaunches, i.e., you can do three reps of launch, j.M, j.M, j.fwd.H, j.S, land tri-dash relaunch, right? That combo is pretty shitty and un-optimized, to be honest. Reliable relatively optimized Doom bnbs only use OTGs at the end of the combo, otherwise you're doing some combination of buktooth loops (for midscreen reliability) and maziodyne loops (reliable max damage in the corner, sometimes midscreen). Rather than changing the hitstun of some of his normals in a effort to reduce his damage, I would just change his scaling a bit (from 20% scaling on normals to 15% or something). Force Doom players to not be lazy and optimize his combos.
Aside from nerfing his damage a bit, I don't think much in the way of point Doom nerfs are necessary. Most people won't agree with this though, and I suspect most people want to see j.S nerfed into the ground. I would just make Doom's actual hurtbox slightly larger so telegraphed footdives can be more easily anti-aired. I'd prefer this over messing with the hitbox to avoid possibly messing up his combos.
I like the suggested molecular shield buff. Point Doom has strong full screen options, and point blank, he has a pretty good high/low/throw mix-up game (though obviously a tier below Mags offense). Where Doom has difficulty is transitioning between his full screen game and his point blank game. Currently, he has a couple options. Butter gun is OK (good in some match-ups) but still isn't great. His horizontal footdive plus assist coverage is pretty good, but also risky. I like the molecular shield buff- maybe we could have it so it is unaffected by pushblock(once the rocks are detached from Doom)? That way he gets an additional approach option (following his own molecular shield). If people think that is too extreme, I would advocate improving butter gun a bit. Making point hidden missiles quasi-useful would be cool, but even with your proposed changes, I'm not sure you see it much outside of situations where it's currently used (on incoming characters).
Point Doom is pretty good right now, but there are only two legitimate point Doom players (Clock and DiosX). System changes (TAC changes, mostly) and nerfing plasma beam and hidden missiles assist will be enough that Doom usage will be significantly marginalized.
Karsticles
Member
I was against a j.S nerf, but I was overrun. :-(
The OTG nerf for Doom was just as much about the damage as it was about the combo length. Those combos are really long and boring.
Haggar's roll after c.H isn't invincible? That was my entire idea behind the buff. Change made.
I'll probably be out much of the rest of the evening. If someone could keep track of what changes everyone agrees on, I would appreciate it. No moving on until I get to look at the Firebrand changes.
Haggar:
*f.H and j.d+H do 15% chip damage; both now negate low and medium priority projectiles.
*Rapid Fire Fist now combos when fully mashed.
*c.H can now be canceled into a roll on the first frame of recovery; full invincibility until recovery.
*Violent Axe cross-up is now better represented visually.
*Giant Haggar Press recovery reduced to 0; causes a hard knockdown; links into itself.
Assists: Double Lariat, Violent Axe H, c.H
Doctor Doom:
*Hitstun reduced on s.M and s.H (fewer OTG relaunches).
*Hidden Missiles (assist): missiles which have not yet gained their tracking property fail to do so.
*Hidden Missiles assist now fires 2 fewer missiles.
*Plasma Beam no longer appears behind the point character.
*j.S untechable time decreased slightly; still allows for full combos off of a non-dash-canceled j.S; posterior hitbox reduced slightly.
*Molecular Shield inputs can now be held to keep the shield active for more frames before releasing the rock; 30 frames max; startup decreased by 2 frames across the board; L version now -3 on block; M version now -1 on block; H version now +1 on block.
*Hidden Missiles is now dash and hyper cancelable.
Assists: Plasma Beam M, Molecular Shield H, Hidden Missiles
Firebrand:
*Wall cling fireballs no longer leave Firebrand prone until landing.
*Hell Spitfire H reduced by half in startup and recovery; soft knockdown, only one on the screen at a time.
*Hell Spitfire H no longer leaves Firebrand prone until landing when performed in the air.
*Luminous Body no longer automatically puts Firebrand in Flight mode unless you hold S during the cinematic screen.
*Chaos Tide is now a level 2; all inputs cause the helper to perform his H attack.
*Dark Fire hitstun increased significantly.
*qcb.S now causes Firebrand to rise into the air further like Hell’s Elevator L while already in the air; no higher than maximum superjump height.
*Throw follow-ups now more consistent in all situations.
*Devil’s Claw startup reduced to 10 frames.
Assists: Hell Spitfire L, Hell Spitfire H, Demon Charge M
Taskmaster:
*Aim Master (uncharged) recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board.
*Aegis Counter now causes a spinning knockdown; can be followed up by wave dashing into a full combo.
*Guard Master (all versions) recovery reduced to 10.
*Sword Master (all versions) is now an overhead: follow-ups are no longer unblockable; final follow-up is launcher cancelable; follow-ups for L and H versions swapped.
Assists: Aim Master L (Hold), Aim Master M (Hold), Aim Master H (Hold)
M.O.D.O.K.:
*M.O.D.O.K. automatically powers his assists up through levels of understanding when able to.
*Big Barrier now negates high priority projectiles.
*Psionic Blaster vertical hitbox extended lower slightly.
*Hyper Psionic Blaster damage reworked; scaling with levels of understanding below:
0: 8,000 X 34 (177,100)
1: 8,000 X 40 (201,100)
2: 8,000 X 50 (241,100)
3: 8,000 X 58 (273,100)
4: 8,000 X 68 (313,100)
5: 8,000 X 76 (345,100)
6: 8,000 X 85 (381,100)
7: 8,000 X 100 (441,100)
*c.L hitbox now hits crouching characters near M.O.D.O.K.
*Using specials in the air no longer reduces the number of hits Hyper Battering Ram will be capable of.
*Hyper Psionic Blaster’s beam durability is now consistent across all levels of understanding.
*Untechable time on forward air throw increased slightly.
*Killed Illumination startup changed to 18+0.
Assists: Psionic Blast M, Balloon Bomb H, Barrier
The OTG nerf for Doom was just as much about the damage as it was about the combo length. Those combos are really long and boring.
Haggar's roll after c.H isn't invincible? That was my entire idea behind the buff. Change made.
I'll probably be out much of the rest of the evening. If someone could keep track of what changes everyone agrees on, I would appreciate it. No moving on until I get to look at the Firebrand changes.
Haggar:
*f.H and j.d+H do 15% chip damage; both now negate low and medium priority projectiles.
*Rapid Fire Fist now combos when fully mashed.
*c.H can now be canceled into a roll on the first frame of recovery; full invincibility until recovery.
*Violent Axe cross-up is now better represented visually.
*Giant Haggar Press recovery reduced to 0; causes a hard knockdown; links into itself.
Assists: Double Lariat, Violent Axe H, c.H
Doctor Doom:
*Hitstun reduced on s.M and s.H (fewer OTG relaunches).
*Hidden Missiles (assist): missiles which have not yet gained their tracking property fail to do so.
*Hidden Missiles assist now fires 2 fewer missiles.
*Plasma Beam no longer appears behind the point character.
*j.S untechable time decreased slightly; still allows for full combos off of a non-dash-canceled j.S; posterior hitbox reduced slightly.
*Molecular Shield inputs can now be held to keep the shield active for more frames before releasing the rock; 30 frames max; startup decreased by 2 frames across the board; L version now -3 on block; M version now -1 on block; H version now +1 on block.
*Hidden Missiles is now dash and hyper cancelable.
Assists: Plasma Beam M, Molecular Shield H, Hidden Missiles
Firebrand:
*Wall cling fireballs no longer leave Firebrand prone until landing.
*Hell Spitfire H reduced by half in startup and recovery; soft knockdown, only one on the screen at a time.
*Hell Spitfire H no longer leaves Firebrand prone until landing when performed in the air.
*Luminous Body no longer automatically puts Firebrand in Flight mode unless you hold S during the cinematic screen.
*Chaos Tide is now a level 2; all inputs cause the helper to perform his H attack.
*Dark Fire hitstun increased significantly.
*qcb.S now causes Firebrand to rise into the air further like Hell’s Elevator L while already in the air; no higher than maximum superjump height.
*Throw follow-ups now more consistent in all situations.
*Devil’s Claw startup reduced to 10 frames.
Assists: Hell Spitfire L, Hell Spitfire H, Demon Charge M
Taskmaster:
*Aim Master (uncharged) recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board.
*Aegis Counter now causes a spinning knockdown; can be followed up by wave dashing into a full combo.
*Guard Master (all versions) recovery reduced to 10.
*Sword Master (all versions) is now an overhead: follow-ups are no longer unblockable; final follow-up is launcher cancelable; follow-ups for L and H versions swapped.
Assists: Aim Master L (Hold), Aim Master M (Hold), Aim Master H (Hold)
M.O.D.O.K.:
*M.O.D.O.K. automatically powers his assists up through levels of understanding when able to.
*Big Barrier now negates high priority projectiles.
*Psionic Blaster vertical hitbox extended lower slightly.
*Hyper Psionic Blaster damage reworked; scaling with levels of understanding below:
0: 8,000 X 34 (177,100)
1: 8,000 X 40 (201,100)
2: 8,000 X 50 (241,100)
3: 8,000 X 58 (273,100)
4: 8,000 X 68 (313,100)
5: 8,000 X 76 (345,100)
6: 8,000 X 85 (381,100)
7: 8,000 X 100 (441,100)
*c.L hitbox now hits crouching characters near M.O.D.O.K.
*Using specials in the air no longer reduces the number of hits Hyper Battering Ram will be capable of.
*Hyper Psionic Blaster’s beam durability is now consistent across all levels of understanding.
*Untechable time on forward air throw increased slightly.
*Killed Illumination startup changed to 18+0.
Assists: Psionic Blast M, Balloon Bomb H, Barrier
If optimized combos don't use up the OTG relaunches... then good players are rewarded for using better combos than the brain dead/lazy combos. Basically this punishes derp Doom player and rewards smart Doom player. Honestly I would be fine with either a normal damage scaling nerf or a hit stun nerf. I would let Karst decide between the two. But the easy mode combo shit needs to go down.
Too many people are against Foot Dive's cross up hit box and general ambiguity for it to go into the next patch unchanged. I seriously doubt changing the hit box would affect combos... it's really the posterior hit box that is being changed much like the Helm Breakers. Changing his hurt box doesn't change much in terms of the ambiguity that the Foot Dive leads into when it comes to crossing up or not.
And we did make point Hidden Missiles better... it is dash cancelable now. Buffs his zoning and his mix up game on incoming. I mean now he can do stuff like throw a missile, dash back, throw a missiles, dash back etc. Basically be an even more annoying presence like he's supposed to be.
It should only be invincible on the first few start up frames of the move (like around 20 frames of invincibility). Otherwise it would go through a whole mess of stuff.
I will handle the changes for you until you get back. Won't touch the FB changes either.
Haggar:
*f.H and j.d+H do 15% chip damage
*Rapid Fire Fist now combos when fully mashed.
*c.H can now be canceled into a roll on the first frame of recovery; roll is invincible from frames 1-20
*Violent Axe cross-up is now better represented visually.
*Giant Haggar Press recovery reduced to 0; causes a hard knockdown; links into itself.
Assists: Double Lariat, Violent Axe H, c.H
Doctor Doom:
*Hitstun reduced on s.M and s.H (fewer OTG relaunches).
*Hidden Missiles (assist): missiles which have not yet gained their tracking property fail to do so.
*Hidden Missiles assist now fires 2 fewer missiles.
*Plasma Beam no longer appears behind the point character.
*j.S untechable time decreased slightly; still allows for full combos off of a non-dash-canceled j.S; posterior hitbox reduced slightly.
*Molecular Shield inputs can now be held to keep the shield active for more frames before releasing the rock; 30 frames max; startup decreased by 2 frames across the board; L version now -3 on block; M version now -1 on block; H version now +1 on block.
*Hidden Missiles is now dash and hyper cancelable.
Assists: Plasma Beam M, Molecular Shield H, Hidden Missiles
Firebrand:
*Wall cling fireballs no longer leave Firebrand prone until landing.
*Hell Spitfire H reduced by half in startup and recovery; soft knockdown, only one on the screen at a time.
*Hell Spitfire H no longer leaves Firebrand prone until landing when performed in the air.
*Luminous Body no longer automatically puts Firebrand in Flight mode unless you hold S during the cinematic screen.
*Chaos Tide is now a level 2; all inputs cause the helper to perform his H attack.
*Dark Fire hitstun increased significantly.
*qcb.S now causes Firebrand to rise into the air further like Hell’s Elevator L while already in the air; no higher than maximum superjump height.
*Throw follow-ups now more consistent in all situations.
*Devil’s Claw startup reduced to 10 frames.
Assists: Hell Spitfire L, Hell Spitfire H, Demon Charge M
Taskmaster:
*Aim Master (uncharged) recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board.
*Aegis Counter now causes a spinning knockdown; can be followed up by wave dashing into a full combo.
*Guard Master (all versions) recovery reduced to 10.
*Sword Master (all versions) is now an overhead (Start up 21/23/25): follow-ups are no longer unblockable; the second last hit in the follow-up is launcher cancelable; follow-ups for L and H versions swapped.
Assists: Aim Master L (Hold), Aim Master M (Hold), Aim Master H (Hold)
M.O.D.O.K.:
*M.O.D.O.K. automatically powers his assists up through levels of understanding when able to.
*Big Barrier now negates high priority projectiles.
*Psionic Blaster vertical hitbox extended lower slightly.
*Hyper Psionic Blaster damage reworked; scaling with levels of understanding below:
0: 8,000 X 34 (177,100)
1: 8,000 X 40 (201,100)
2: 8,000 X 50 (241,100)
3: 8,000 X 58 (273,100)
4: 8,000 X 68 (313,100)
5: 8,000 X 76 (345,100)
6: 8,000 X 85 (381,100)
7: 8,000 X 100 (441,100)
*c.L hitbox now hits crouching characters near M.O.D.O.K.
*Using specials in the air no longer reduces the number of hits Hyper Battering Ram will be capable of.
*Hyper Psionic Blaster’s beam durability is now consistent across all levels of understanding.
*Untechable time on forward air throw increased slightly.
*Killed Illumination startup changed to 18+0.
Hsien-ko:
*Air dash speed increased three-fold; aerial momentum retained after attack-canceling.
*Senpu Bu now dash, Henkyo Ki, and j.S-cancelable.; startup reduced by 10 frames (all versions).
*Time bomb item throw remapped to qcf.S.
*Item throw durability increased to 3.
*Henkyo Ki now +5 on block at close range; active frames increased by 50% (all levels).
*Canceled ground dash now always behaves the same as her plink dash.
*Ground attacks dash cancelable.
*Ground dash invincible on frames 10 – 25; dash takes 30 total frames to complete; distance unchanged.
*Houten Geki and her air throw now lead to full combos via c.H follow-up.
*Walk speed increased to Morrigan levels.
*c.H now OTGs and is jump-cancelable; travels faster and slightly farther.
*Chireitou startup reduced to 20+3, now carries two characters.
Assists: Senpu Bu L, Henkyo Ki H, Anki Hou S
Too many people are against Foot Dive's cross up hit box and general ambiguity for it to go into the next patch unchanged. I seriously doubt changing the hit box would affect combos... it's really the posterior hit box that is being changed much like the Helm Breakers. Changing his hurt box doesn't change much in terms of the ambiguity that the Foot Dive leads into when it comes to crossing up or not.
And we did make point Hidden Missiles better... it is dash cancelable now. Buffs his zoning and his mix up game on incoming. I mean now he can do stuff like throw a missile, dash back, throw a missiles, dash back etc. Basically be an even more annoying presence like he's supposed to be.
Wow woah.. that's TOO good now.
It should only be invincible on the first few start up frames of the move (like around 20 frames of invincibility). Otherwise it would go through a whole mess of stuff.
I will handle the changes for you until you get back. Won't touch the FB changes either.
Haggar:
*f.H and j.d+H do 15% chip damage
*Rapid Fire Fist now combos when fully mashed.
*c.H can now be canceled into a roll on the first frame of recovery; roll is invincible from frames 1-20
*Violent Axe cross-up is now better represented visually.
*Giant Haggar Press recovery reduced to 0; causes a hard knockdown; links into itself.
Assists: Double Lariat, Violent Axe H, c.H
Doctor Doom:
*Hitstun reduced on s.M and s.H (fewer OTG relaunches).
*Hidden Missiles (assist): missiles which have not yet gained their tracking property fail to do so.
*Hidden Missiles assist now fires 2 fewer missiles.
*Plasma Beam no longer appears behind the point character.
*j.S untechable time decreased slightly; still allows for full combos off of a non-dash-canceled j.S; posterior hitbox reduced slightly.
*Molecular Shield inputs can now be held to keep the shield active for more frames before releasing the rock; 30 frames max; startup decreased by 2 frames across the board; L version now -3 on block; M version now -1 on block; H version now +1 on block.
*Hidden Missiles is now dash and hyper cancelable.
Assists: Plasma Beam M, Molecular Shield H, Hidden Missiles
Firebrand:
*Wall cling fireballs no longer leave Firebrand prone until landing.
*Hell Spitfire H reduced by half in startup and recovery; soft knockdown, only one on the screen at a time.
*Hell Spitfire H no longer leaves Firebrand prone until landing when performed in the air.
*Luminous Body no longer automatically puts Firebrand in Flight mode unless you hold S during the cinematic screen.
*Chaos Tide is now a level 2; all inputs cause the helper to perform his H attack.
*Dark Fire hitstun increased significantly.
*qcb.S now causes Firebrand to rise into the air further like Hell’s Elevator L while already in the air; no higher than maximum superjump height.
*Throw follow-ups now more consistent in all situations.
*Devil’s Claw startup reduced to 10 frames.
Assists: Hell Spitfire L, Hell Spitfire H, Demon Charge M
Taskmaster:
*Aim Master (uncharged) recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board.
*Aegis Counter now causes a spinning knockdown; can be followed up by wave dashing into a full combo.
*Guard Master (all versions) recovery reduced to 10.
*Sword Master (all versions) is now an overhead (Start up 21/23/25): follow-ups are no longer unblockable; the second last hit in the follow-up is launcher cancelable; follow-ups for L and H versions swapped.
Assists: Aim Master L (Hold), Aim Master M (Hold), Aim Master H (Hold)
M.O.D.O.K.:
*M.O.D.O.K. automatically powers his assists up through levels of understanding when able to.
*Big Barrier now negates high priority projectiles.
*Psionic Blaster vertical hitbox extended lower slightly.
*Hyper Psionic Blaster damage reworked; scaling with levels of understanding below:
0: 8,000 X 34 (177,100)
1: 8,000 X 40 (201,100)
2: 8,000 X 50 (241,100)
3: 8,000 X 58 (273,100)
4: 8,000 X 68 (313,100)
5: 8,000 X 76 (345,100)
6: 8,000 X 85 (381,100)
7: 8,000 X 100 (441,100)
*c.L hitbox now hits crouching characters near M.O.D.O.K.
*Using specials in the air no longer reduces the number of hits Hyper Battering Ram will be capable of.
*Hyper Psionic Blaster’s beam durability is now consistent across all levels of understanding.
*Untechable time on forward air throw increased slightly.
*Killed Illumination startup changed to 18+0.
Hsien-ko:
*Air dash speed increased three-fold; aerial momentum retained after attack-canceling.
*Senpu Bu now dash, Henkyo Ki, and j.S-cancelable.; startup reduced by 10 frames (all versions).
*Time bomb item throw remapped to qcf.S.
*Item throw durability increased to 3.
*Henkyo Ki now +5 on block at close range; active frames increased by 50% (all levels).
*Canceled ground dash now always behaves the same as her plink dash.
*Ground attacks dash cancelable.
*Ground dash invincible on frames 10 – 25; dash takes 30 total frames to complete; distance unchanged.
*Houten Geki and her air throw now lead to full combos via c.H follow-up.
*Walk speed increased to Morrigan levels.
*c.H now OTGs and is jump-cancelable; travels faster and slightly farther.
*Chireitou startup reduced to 20+3, now carries two characters.
Assists: Senpu Bu L, Henkyo Ki H, Anki Hou S
"God's Beard!"
Member
Why are you guys even talking about the roll? It should just be a normal tech roll because he's coming out of knockdown.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Uhh only if she can have 1 out at a time? That's way too strong :lol Damn thing reflects projectiles.
Also since MODOK's throw hyper was buffed to have instant start up, Thor's Mighty Punish should be made to allow Thor to get a combo off of it. Final hit that smacks the opponent down causes a bounce.
Why do you guys need to buff her walk speed when she is apparently getting a solid ground dash?
Why do you guys need to buff her walk speed when she is apparently getting a solid ground dash?
It's not about 'using up OTG relaunches.' Optimized Doom combos still use OTG relaunches at the end of the combos (usually 2 OTG relaunches). If you reduce hitstun on his OTGs, then you're cutting off that end portion, which could well put lazy Doom combos on par with more difficult Doom combos. Currently, you do the optimized quick stuff early and your HSD hasn't gotten too bad, so you get damage up front plus 2 OTG relaunches if you're doing proper combos. Lazy Doom players start using OTG relaunch super early in a combo (something which will still work with your proposed changes).
Like you said- Doom isn't an especially amazing point character currently, and we're buffing all the characters below him (and some who are better as well). Why are we significantly buffing point Dorm while nerfing point Doom? ToD combos will be more difficult due to health buffs anyway.
Karsticles
Member
Dahbomb, your lists are out of date. I PMed you my full list of changes, including my thoughts on many characters we have not discussed yet. Please do not mention those ideas.
And feel free to talk about Firebrand; just don't move on from him.
Hsien-ko:
*Air dash speed increased three-fold; aerial momentum retained after attack-canceling.
*Senpu Bu now dash, Henkyo Ki, and j.S-cancelable.; startup reduced by 10 frames (all versions).
*Item throw durability increased to 3; Time Bomb remapped to qcf.S; stun items now regularly appears once every 4 tosses.
*Henkyo Ki now +5 on block at close range; active frames increased by 50% (all levels).
*Canceled ground dash now always behaves the same as her plink dash.
*Ground attacks dash cancelable.
*Ground dash invincible on frames 10 – 25; dash takes 30 total frames to complete; distance unchanged.
*Houten Geki and her air throw now lead to full combos via c.H follow-up.
*c.H now OTGs and is jump-cancelable; travels faster and slightly farther.
*Chireitou startup reduced to 20+3, now carries two characters.
Assists: Senpu Bu L, Henkyo Ki H, Anki Hou S.
And feel free to talk about Firebrand; just don't move on from him.
Hsien-ko:
*Air dash speed increased three-fold; aerial momentum retained after attack-canceling.
*Senpu Bu now dash, Henkyo Ki, and j.S-cancelable.; startup reduced by 10 frames (all versions).
*Item throw durability increased to 3; Time Bomb remapped to qcf.S; stun items now regularly appears once every 4 tosses.
*Henkyo Ki now +5 on block at close range; active frames increased by 50% (all levels).
*Canceled ground dash now always behaves the same as her plink dash.
*Ground attacks dash cancelable.
*Ground dash invincible on frames 10 – 25; dash takes 30 total frames to complete; distance unchanged.
*Houten Geki and her air throw now lead to full combos via c.H follow-up.
*c.H now OTGs and is jump-cancelable; travels faster and slightly farther.
*Chireitou startup reduced to 20+3, now carries two characters.
Assists: Senpu Bu L, Henkyo Ki H, Anki Hou S.
You can recommend Doom buffs by the way. He still has plenty of slots. I will change the hit stun thing to scaling on normals.
BTW we buffed Rocks substantially... L version is essentially reversal status now. The problem was that we couldn't figure out where to buff the character.
Karst you should just combine all the ground dash changes as one. I mean its all change on one of her tool. Would free up more slots on the character.
Those Hsien Ko changes basically make her impossible to block now at close range. Command throw, insant overheads and teleport style mix ups I guess she always had that but now she can get in to apply it.
BTW we buffed Rocks substantially... L version is essentially reversal status now. The problem was that we couldn't figure out where to buff the character.
Karst you should just combine all the ground dash changes as one. I mean its all change on one of her tool. Would free up more slots on the character.
Those Hsien Ko changes basically make her impossible to block now at close range. Command throw, insant overheads and teleport style mix ups I guess she always had that but now she can get in to apply it.
Doom buffs I would like to see:
*Untechable time on his forward air throw slightly increased (maybe 10 more frames or something). Reasoning- presently in many situations it is near impossible to get the follow-up on his forward air throw (very dependent on the height the throw was performed at). Lengthening the window will let you get the pick-up in more situations, but it will still be difficult.
*Butter gun startup reduced. Currently it's 21 frames- maybe reduce it to 16? Reasoning- Doom transitions poorly from his full screen lame play to more rushdown oriented play. His midscreen options are bad (whereas Mags transitions very fluidly with mag blasts and such). Better butter gun will give Doom a better midscreen option.
*j.L hitbox size slightly increased so that it can overhead smaller crouching characters when tri-dashing. Reasoning- currently on some characters it is difficult/impossible to hit with j.L tri-dash overhead, leaving you with tri-dash j.M which is FAR more telegraphed. Making j.L non-character-specific would alleviate that.
*If you guys are dead set on heavily nerfing OTG relaunches, increase the hitstun on fwd.H footdive a bit so that Doom has more proper aerial combo options.
*Untechable time on his forward air throw slightly increased (maybe 10 more frames or something). Reasoning- presently in many situations it is near impossible to get the follow-up on his forward air throw (very dependent on the height the throw was performed at). Lengthening the window will let you get the pick-up in more situations, but it will still be difficult.
*Butter gun startup reduced. Currently it's 21 frames- maybe reduce it to 16? Reasoning- Doom transitions poorly from his full screen lame play to more rushdown oriented play. His midscreen options are bad (whereas Mags transitions very fluidly with mag blasts and such). Better butter gun will give Doom a better midscreen option.
*j.L hitbox size slightly increased so that it can overhead smaller crouching characters when tri-dashing. Reasoning- currently on some characters it is difficult/impossible to hit with j.L tri-dash overhead, leaving you with tri-dash j.M which is FAR more telegraphed. Making j.L non-character-specific would alleviate that.
*If you guys are dead set on heavily nerfing OTG relaunches, increase the hitstun on fwd.H footdive a bit so that Doom has more proper aerial combo options.
His Butter Gun is already pretty damn good, he gets full combos after it.
The other stuff can be implemented.
Doctor Doom:
*Minimum scaling on normals reduced from 20% to 15%
*Hidden Missiles (assist): missiles which have not yet gained their tracking property fail to do so. The assist now fires 2 fewer missiles.
*Plasma Beam no longer appears behind the point character.
*j.S untechable time decreased slightly; still allows for full combos off of a non-dash-canceled j.S; posterior hitbox reduced slightly.
*Molecular Shield inputs can now be held to keep the shield active for more frames before releasing the rock; 30 frames max; startup decreased by 2 frames across the board; L version now -3 on block; M version now -1 on block; H version now +1 on block.
*Hidden Missiles is now dash and hyper cancelable.
*J.L hit box improved so it can hit small crouching characters when tri-dashing
*Untechable time after forward air throw slightly increased
*J. f+H Foot Dive has increased hit stun for better aerial combo options
Assists: Plasma Beam M, Molecular Shield H, Hidden Missiles
Bolded are new changes. I consolidates the assist Missiles changes in one slot so this frees up a slot for another Doom buff.
Current order of business is buffing Mighty Punish to allow him to combo after it (so that it's at least on par with MODOK's hyper throw):
Thor:
*Mighty Spark startup hitbox extended downward more.
*Mighty Smash M assist causes a hard knockdown after the ground bounce; armored from frames 36-63.
*Mighty Smash L super armor from frames 6-20.
*Flight Startup reduced to 20 frames.
*s.H has super armor from frames 6-20.
*s.L startup reduced to 6 frames.
*Startup on all versions of Mighty Strike reduced to 15-25 (charged) frames, have super armor from frames 12-30 regardless of charging.
*Mighty Thunder now causes pushback equivalent to Magnetic Shockwave; startup decreased to 10+4.
*Air throws now cause enough knockdown to ensure Mighty Thunder can always connect afterward.
*Mighty Speech (assist) generates 15 meter per frame.
*Mighty Punish last hit causes a ground bounce that allows Thor to combo off of
Assists: Mighty Spark M, Mighty Smash M, Mighty Speech (complete speech)
We need to free up a slot so that change can happen.
The other stuff can be implemented.
Doctor Doom:
*Minimum scaling on normals reduced from 20% to 15%
*Hidden Missiles (assist): missiles which have not yet gained their tracking property fail to do so. The assist now fires 2 fewer missiles.
*Plasma Beam no longer appears behind the point character.
*j.S untechable time decreased slightly; still allows for full combos off of a non-dash-canceled j.S; posterior hitbox reduced slightly.
*Molecular Shield inputs can now be held to keep the shield active for more frames before releasing the rock; 30 frames max; startup decreased by 2 frames across the board; L version now -3 on block; M version now -1 on block; H version now +1 on block.
*Hidden Missiles is now dash and hyper cancelable.
*J.L hit box improved so it can hit small crouching characters when tri-dashing
*Untechable time after forward air throw slightly increased
*J. f+H Foot Dive has increased hit stun for better aerial combo options
Assists: Plasma Beam M, Molecular Shield H, Hidden Missiles
Bolded are new changes. I consolidates the assist Missiles changes in one slot so this frees up a slot for another Doom buff.
Current order of business is buffing Mighty Punish to allow him to combo after it (so that it's at least on par with MODOK's hyper throw):
Thor:
*Mighty Spark startup hitbox extended downward more.
*Mighty Smash M assist causes a hard knockdown after the ground bounce; armored from frames 36-63.
*Mighty Smash L super armor from frames 6-20.
*Flight Startup reduced to 20 frames.
*s.H has super armor from frames 6-20.
*s.L startup reduced to 6 frames.
*Startup on all versions of Mighty Strike reduced to 15-25 (charged) frames, have super armor from frames 12-30 regardless of charging.
*Mighty Thunder now causes pushback equivalent to Magnetic Shockwave; startup decreased to 10+4.
*Air throws now cause enough knockdown to ensure Mighty Thunder can always connect afterward.
*Mighty Speech (assist) generates 15 meter per frame.
*Mighty Punish last hit causes a ground bounce that allows Thor to combo off of
Assists: Mighty Spark M, Mighty Smash M, Mighty Speech (complete speech)
We need to free up a slot so that change can happen.
"God's Beard!"
Member
lol you've got a weird idea of parity here
Punish is way better than MODOK's. It's a reversal, not a combo tool. If you want to combo after a throw, use his normal one, it's even faster.
btw this should really be against opponents in the air. rapid fire on grounded opponents always connects unless you hit the opponent from pretty far away and the other punches don't connect.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Yeah it sucks balls.