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[Karsticles]

Damn you guys blew through MODOK so fast. Mind if I suggest a few changes? MODOK player here.

+ Increase untechable time on forward air throw. Right now this is his only throw that he can't convert off of unless it's as CLOSE to the ground as possible.
+ Killer Illumination has 0 frame startup after the super flash. Now works as a proper reversal like say Thor's grab hyper, so characters pushing buttons in his face can't just make themselves safe by jumping, super-cancelling, or XF cancelling.
- Characters overlapping with MODOK's Barrier should no longer be protected by the Barrier even if their hurtbox extends out in front of it.
- Either remove the low-hitting property or decrease the number of active frames on the cr.M puddle. Right now he can use this to set up cheesy unblockables on incoming. He can also whiff cancel cr.M into Psionic Blaster to pretty much always keep himself safe if Blaster gets stuffed... that needs to go.

Added the two buffs, but not the nerfs. The first nerf is likely impossible to implement. The second one is something I'm okay with because there are always ways out of those setups.

I personally never used it in the 2000+ games I used Task, so I would be okay with that change. Thought it had some hidden usefulness I wasn't exploiting as I knew I could set it up with Dark Hole but rarely ever bothered. Better counters fits with the characters photographic memory and reflexes. I've only seen WhiteBlack use the projectile counters in tournaments where he did have some success with it.

It's an unblockable!

And this version of haggar wont be touch of deathing people. Point haggar is strong right now because one tap off any of his big ass hit boxes leads to a kill, take that away and welll

I won't back a projectile invincible Violent Axe. That's just brain dead and too strong.

Taskmaster:
*Aim Master (uncharged) recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board.
*Aegis Counter now causes a spinning knockdown; can be followed up by wave dashing into a full combo.
*Guard Master (all versions) recovery reduced to 10.

Assists: Aim Master L (Hold), Aim Master H (Hold), Charging Star

I can agree with the cr.M nerf because we did that to Dorm. However cr.M into Psionic Blaster is essential for the character, he gets bodied hardcore by short characters. That's a very important tool for him in certain match ups. On the KI change... you can't compare it to Thor's because 1) Thor doesn't get a combo off of it like MODOK does and 2) it has way more range.

Wow Karst just pulled the EVO card on Haggar... that shit is low especially compared to Dorm who not only had 3 appearances in that same EVO but won the previous EVO. The double standards here are insane!

How many point Dormammu's were at Evo? He only does stuff when the point character already wins the neutral for you.

And I'm not pulling the Evo card on Haggar. I'm just saying that the character is clearly really good already, and we should be careful about giving him stupid stuff like a projectile invincible Violent Axe.

 

[QisTopTier]

I won't back a projectile invincible Violent Axe. That's just brain dead and too strong.

Well if you are going with the pipe thing then I hope you reduce the active frames on it because it's pretty much the same thing worse actually as it fucks over rush down characters that use projectile assist vs him

Almost every zoner in this version of the game is getting buffed on top of damage nerfs across the board. This by default makes Haggar worse.

Violent Axe getting projectile immunity even on the lower ranks of it makes him stronger vs zoners while not really making him stronger vs rush down

 

[Karsticles]

Well if you are going with the pipe thing then I hope you reduce the active frames on it because it's pretty much the same thing

It's not the same at all. Not remotely. Violent Axe H covers like half the screen. It's fast and just goes at you. The pipe is very predictable. You also have to time your pipe hit to negate projectiles, whereas Violent Axe is the definition of a herpaderp move if you give it invincibility. My change makes him a more skill-oriented character.

Well if you are going with the pipe thing then I hope you reduce the active frames on it because it's pretty much the same thing Almost every zoner in this version of the game is getting buffed on top of damage nerfs across the board. This by default makes Haggar worse

Zoning is still the underdog in this game outside of Hidden Missiles teams, and we're nerfing Hidden Missiles.

 

[Dahbomb]

It's an unblockable!

All the top Taskmaster players have stopped using the unblockable because it sucks. Moonz used to do it.. he would specifically have Ammy Cold Shots and Tatsu assist to set it up with Cold Shots and combo after it with Tatsu. Then later on he changed Tatsu with Nova because going for high/low unblockable with Centurion assist was 10000% better than going for that shitty unblockable. Honzo Gonzo used to do it in Vanilla and has stopped.

Taskmaster players would much rather prefer they had a standing comboable overhead (the first Swordmaster hit already looks like an overhead) than an unreliable unblockable series.

Realistically speaking Taskmaster has mediocre mix ups even including the unblockable. We gave Chris an overhead to fix this. Task should have a standing overhead.


LOL what difference does it make that Dorm was on second vs point? How many anchor Haggars did you see? Should we now buff Haggars anchor potential now because there were no anchor Haggars? You did pull the card of EVO to defend something. That's bad reasoning because by that same logic I can say you buffing Shuma's Mystic Ray is ridiculous because he got top 3 EVO with it.

Let's agree to never use EVO placing as basis for character changes. A lot of good characters didn't make top 8... like Spencer. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't nerf that Wire grapple. Or just because Akuma made it to Grand Finals doesn't mean that we shouldn't be buffing him.

 

[Uncle AJ]

I can agree with the cr.M nerf because we did that to Dorm. However cr.M into Psionic Blaster is essential for the character, he gets bodied hardcore by short characters. That's a very important tool for him in certain match ups. On the KI change... you can't compare it to Thor's because 1) Thor doesn't get a combo off of it like MODOK does and 2) it has way more range.

Believe me, I love abusing cr.M > PB. It just feels out of balance compared to other projectile characters that can be properly punished for throwing out a bad beam. PB already has a higher vertical hitbox than most beams, so normal jumping over it almost never works out.

I'm perfectly fine with nerfing the range on KI as long as it gets that startup buff.

 

[GuardianE]

Zoning is still the underdog in this game outside of Hidden Missiles teams, and we're nerfing Hidden Missiles.

Yes, but you've also buffed zoning characters in general, and given more utility to zoning assists.

 

[Karsticles]

All the top Taskmaster players have stopped using the unblockable because it sucks. Moonz used to do it.. he would specifically have Ammy Cold Shots and Tatsu assist to set it up with Cold Shots and combo after it with Tatsu. Then later on he changed Tatsu with Nova because going for high/low unblockable with Centurion assist was 10000% better than going for that shitty unblockable. Honzo Gonzo used to do it in Vanilla and has stopped.

Taskmaster players would much rather prefer they had a standing comboable overhead (the first Swordmaster hit already looks like an overhead) than an unreliable unblockable series.

Realistically speaking Taskmaster has mediocre mix ups even including the unblockable. We gave Chris an overhead to fix this. Task should have a standing overhead.

I'll think about it. I have to go do some stuff. I'll discuss it more in an hour or two.

 

[QisTopTier]

Dude karst I already said to just make the two weaker versions of violent axe have it not the H version. Pipe destroying projectles fucks over most of the melee characters.

Which in this scenario zoning still fucks with him badly due to universal buffs to them while melee characters that use projectile assist to get in get wacked even more free vs it.

Top this off with his own assist doing shit most melee characters will have a damn near impossible time getting a clean hit on him

 

[smurfx]

And this version of haggar wont be touch of deathing people. Point haggar is strong right now because one tap off any of his big ass hit boxes leads to a kill, take that away and well.

If anything just make the Weak and/or Medium one projectile immune

i'd rather get 1 hit of super armor on M and H hoodlum launchers. :3

 

[Deleted member 13876]

It's an unblockable!

I

Yeah, I know it's an unblockable, so my last post was a bit dumb admittedly. Never felt like setting it up or getting the follow-ups. When I did I'd usually cancel into hyper and maybe DHC rather than the follow-up. But I never really saw it used in the competitive scene either leading me to maybe vastly underestimate its worth now.

 

[Dahbomb]

Yeah, I know it's an unblockable, so my last post was a bit dumb admittedly. Never felt like setting it up or getting the follow-ups. When I did I'd usually cancel into hyper and maybe DHC rather than the follow-up. But I never really saw it used in the competitive scene either leading me to maybe vastly underestimate its worth now.

No the unblockable sucks. Top players tried to make optimized teams using the unblockable, it was not viable at all. Mostly because Task had to use two close up assists and he would rather have a neutral/zoning assist to play his game.

It's a gimmick at best. A standing overhead is more reliable and it makes Task's low footsie game even stronger.

 

[QisTopTier]

i'd rather get 1 hit of super armor on M and H hoodlum launchers. :3

LOL fuck that xD

 

[Dahbomb]

You can't start giving Haggar armor on stuff because then the match ups that he wins easily against melee characters go more in his favor.

 

[Azure J]

i'd rather get 1 hit of super armor on M and H hoodlum launchers. :3

Ban this man from Haggar discussion please. I nerfed Viper and Dante and will probably nerf Strider and this one wants stuff that makes the derpy side of his character let loose even more. :lol

 

[Dahbomb]

Dante got overall buffed buddy.

 

[GuardianE]

Ban this man from Haggar discussion please. I nerfed Viper and Dante and will probably nerf Strider and this one wants stuff that makes the derpy side of his character let loose even more. :lol

First of all, Dante got buffed. Second of all, stop proposing unnecessary nerfs for your characters, then. No one else can speak on your character's behalf here. It's all the people fighting against your characters that will propose the most nerfs.

 

[QisTopTier]

You can't start giving Haggar armor on stuff because then the match ups that he wins easily against melee characters go more in his favor.

yeah but isn't this exactly the problem with the pipe change?

Most melee characters get past it by having to use an assist to help open him up. If that option is gone, what will standard melee characters do vs him. You know the ones that don't have sword normals or other gimmicks

I'm all for helping haggar get past zoners better, but I rather have an option that doesn't fuck over who he is already good vs while not doing much for what he has trouble with

 

[Azure J]

Dante got overall buffed buddy.

First of all, Dante got buffed. Second of all, stop proposing unnecessary nerfs for your characters, then. No one else can speak on your character's behalf here. It's all the people fighting against your characters that will propose the most nerfs.

You guys are no fun.

smurf knows I'm just ribbing him on.

Spoiler

(I hope.)

 

[Fringot]

No new moves? Well, I hope they reconsider eventually, the hammer throw would definatley give Thor that feeling of having all his moves from the comics. They did give Magneto the ability to move people around with magnetism.

Well anyway, I like the Hsien-Ko changes. I also wouldn't mind if she were to become like her Vsav incarnation with really good projectiles. I don't know how I feel about bombs being a seperate projectile. It's hard to estimate how much that would bolster her without seeing a player take it to the lab and invent crazy things with it.

 

[AnkiRendan]

Man, after facing Slasher I feel so conflicted. I haven't been playing Marvel for a long time because I've been focusing on Tekken. I really feel like I want to make a different team though. I still want to use Hsien-Ko though. Maybe I'll pick a team of characters who use hidden weapons or something. Or Vergil can be the samurai I've always wanted. I'll think about it...

 

[Frantic]

I feel like if you roll backwards with Haggar, you should teleport to the other side of the screen.

 

[Dahbomb]

yeah but isn't this exactly the problem with the pipe change?

Most melee characters get past it by having to use an assist to help open him up. If that option is gone, what will standard melee characters do vs him. You know the ones that don't have sword normals or other gimmicks

You are right on this, I can't deny it.

The problem also is giving him projectile invulnerable moves that move him forward AND are safe on block. All these similar moves in the game are unsafe on block. That's why you can' t give him the property on Violent Axes.

 

[QisTopTier]

You are right on this, I can't deny it.

The problem also is giving him projectile invulnerable moves that move him forward AND are safe on block. All these similar moves in the game are unsafe on block. That's why you can' t give him the property on Violent Axes.

So just make Violent Axe L and M unsafe on block? He would be wanting to use them to get in if it gets baited it should be punished just like anything else like this

 

[Dahbomb]

So just make Violent axe L and M unsafe on block?

You can't just do that, they are important tools in his arsenal in terms of staying in/negating push block and frame trapping.

 

[QisTopTier]

You can't just do that, they are important tools in his arsenal in terms of staying in/negating push block and frame trapping.

Well the only other thing I can think of would be to make his drop kick*c.H* projectile immune... but uhh yeah.... worst idea

 

[GuardianE]

The solution is to do nothing. That roll buff is fine. I suggested making his roll a separate move so that it removes the obtuse way of implementing the roll to get around projectiles, but Karst seemed against it.

 

[QisTopTier]

The solution is to do nothing.

Which would make him assist tier with the current changes going on so far lol. Unless he get's his own special favoritism against the universal health increase. *damage goes up to match*

 

[Dahbomb]

I know that we already went over him... but if MODOK is getting an improve KI then Thor deserves to be able to combo off his Mighty Punish.

Make Mighty Punish last hit cause a bounce off of which Thor can combo from solo.

Otherwise it makes no sense that a zoner/flier has a better command throw hyper than a grappler/heavy character.

Which would make him assist tier with the current changes going on so far lol

Was about to say this. Haggar gets nerfed over the less damage because his combos just barely kill and he usually has to blow THCs to kill. Quite a few melee characters got better (Iron Fist in particular) and basically every zoner got better. There is no way Iron Man vs Haggar isn't supremely in IM's favor now for example.

Q is right, Haggar might be good/competitive now but with everyone getting better he feels left behind. At the bare minimum, he needs a good tool against zoning. Having a poor man's roll is not the answer.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

No the unblockable sucks. Top players tried to make optimized teams using the unblockable, it was not viable at all. Mostly because Task had to use two close up assists and he would rather have a neutral/zoning assist to play his game.

It's a gimmick at best. A standing overhead is more reliable and it makes Task's low footsie game even stronger.

Yeah I can clearly see how an overhead would be superior. His footsies could be damn evil with the threat of one.

 

[SolarPowered]

No new moves? Well, I hope they reconsider eventually, the hammer throw would definatley give Thor that feeling of having all his moves from the comics. They did give Magneto the ability to move people around with magnetism.

Well anyway, I like the Hsien-Ko changes. I also wouldn't mind if she were to become like her Vsav incarnation with really good projectiles. I don't know how I feel about bombs being a seperate projectile. It's hard to estimate how much that would bolster her without seeing a player take it to the lab and invent crazy things with it.

Bombs were mapped to ES input in VSav iirc. They just need to stay out of the regular rotation of items. It worked fine there and it'll be okay here. Karsticles needs to think carefully about adding some actual strategy to her dizzy gameplan.

 

[Karsticles]

Hsien-ko has too many changes.

I want to hear opinions on:
1) What Taskmaster's third assist should be.
2) Whether Hsien-ko's items should be random or pre-determined (I like random).
3) Whether Hsien-ko should have Anki Hou L or S for her third assist.

Then we can talk about Firebrand if the other characters are all wrapped up.

Taskmaster:
*Aim Master (uncharged) recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board.
*Aegis Counter now causes a spinning knockdown; can be followed up by wave dashing into a full combo.
*Guard Master (all versions) recovery reduced to 10.
*Sword Master (all versions) is now an overhead: follow-ups are no longer unblockable.

Assists: Aim Master L (Hold), Aim Master H (Hold), Charging Star

Haggar:
*f.H and j.d+H do 15% chip damage; both now negate low and medium priority projectiles.
*Rapid Fire Fist now combos when fully mashed.
*c.H can now be canceled into a roll on the first frame of recovery.
*Violent Axe cross-up is now better represented visually.
*Giant Haggar Press recovery reduced to 0; causes a hard knockdown; links into itself.

Assists: Double Lariat, Violent Axe H, c.H

Firebrand:
*Wall cling fireballs no longer leave Firebrand prone until landing.
*Hell Spitfire H reduced by half in startup and recovery; soft knockdown, only one on the screen at a time.
*Hell Spitfire H no longer leaves Firebrand prone until landing when performed in the air.
*Luminous Body no longer automatically puts him in Flight mode unless you hold S during the cinematic screen.
*Chaos Tide is now a level 2; all inputs cause the helper to perform his H attack.
*Dark Fire hitstun increased significantly.
*qcb.S now causes Firebrand to rise into the air further like Hell’s Elevator L while already in the air; no higher than maximum superjump height.
*Throw follow-ups now more consistent in all situations.
*Devil’s Claw startup reduced to 10 frames.

Assists: Hell Spitfire L, Hell Spitfire H, Demon Charge M

Hsien-ko:
*Air dash speed increased three-fold; aerial momentum retained after attack-canceling.
*Senpu Bu now dash, Henkyo Ki, and j.S-cancelable.; startup reduced by 10 frames (all versions).
*Time bomb item throw remapped to qcf.S.
*Item throw durability increased to 3.
*Henkyo Ki now +5 on block at close range; active frames increased by 50% (all levels).
*Canceled ground dash now always behaves the same as her plink dash.
*Ground attacks dash cancelable.
*Ground dash invincible on frames 10 – 25; dash takes 30 total frames to complete; distance unchanged.
*Houten Geki and her air throw now lead to full combos via c.H follow-up.
*Walk speed increased to Morrigan levels.
*c.H now OTGs and is jump-cancelable; travels faster and slightly farther.
*Chireitou startup reduced to 20+3, now carries two characters.

Assists: Senpu Bu L, Henkyo Ki H, Anki Hou S

 

[QisTopTier]

Was about to say this. Haggar gets nerfed over the less damage because his combos just barely kill and he usually has to blow THCs to kill. Quite a few melee characters got better (Iron Fist in particular) and basically every zoner got better. There is no way Iron Man vs Haggar isn't supremely in IM's favor now for example.

Q is right, Haggar might be good/competitive now but with everyone getting better he feels left behind. At the bare minimum, he needs a good tool against zoning. Having a poor man's roll is not the answer.

Exactly you can't look at characters in the context they perform now because a lot of shit is changing. Did you guys even stop to think about how Joe/Strange is going to work with the universal projectile buff?

Right now the only real option for hagger outside of giving him a new move is the violent axe thing. Make it on L only if anything and make him have to chain it across the stage which obviously leaves him open for melee stuff if he's derping it out

 

[Karsticles]

Exactly you can't look at characters in the context they perform now because a lot of shit is changing. Did you guys even stop to think about how Joe/Strange is going to work with the universal projectile buff?

Universal projectile buff?

 

[QisTopTier]

Universal projectile buff?

Unless you guys canceled it I recall chip damage being buffed up as well as just about every other zoner in the game staying almost the same or better.

Toss in the fact haggar wont be 1 touching anything and he has to pray for another hit he's going to be fucked over hard.

the ONLY other option I see is making his reset game stronger so he can potentially get the same damage as before off that one hit he does get but this can lead zero level stupidity though I guess haggar would deserve it for getting in

 

[Azure J]

Hsien-Ko's items should definitely follow a strategy.

 

[Karsticles]

Unless you guys canceled it I recall chip damage being buffed up as well as just about every other zoner in the game staying almost the same or better

Chip damage was buffed slightly to make the health buff less daunting for keepaway strategies. It's still a nerf overall.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Yeah I saw someone use it because it worked for their team in terms of combo extension. I forgot the team but I specifically remembered that assist and even made a comment about it in the EVO thread.

Kinderparty with his Nova/Task/?

 

[QisTopTier]

Chip damage was buffed slightly to make the health buff less daunting for keepaway strategies. It's still a nerf overall.

and how many zoning options are getting improvements as well?

You cant picture it as haggar in the current version of the game you gotta think of him with all the system changes in place and other character buffs.

What would haggar bring to the table in a game where he can't ToD anymore and Zoners are well better zoners? How would you help him in this situation without hurting the characters he's already good against?

 

[Karsticles]

and how many zoning options are getting improvements as well?

You cant picture it as haggar in the current version of the game you gotta think of him with all the system changes in place and other character buffs

That is how I think of it.

 

[QisTopTier]

That is how I think of it.

Well he's pretty much UMvC3 Tron at the moment if current changes are anything to go by, probably a bit worse actually outside of having a good assist.

Pipe crushing projectiles just doesn't fly and even dahbomb agrees this fucks over anyone that already has a hard time vs him

 

[SolarPowered]

Hsien-ko has too many changes.

I want to hear opinions on:
2) Whether Hsien-ko's items should be random or pre-determined (I like random).
3) Whether Hsien-ko should have Anki Hou L or S for her third assist.

Hsien-ko:
*Air dash speed increased three-fold; aerial momentum retained after attack-canceling.
*Senpu Bu now dash, Henkyo Ki, and j.S-cancelable.; startup reduced by 10 frames (all versions).
*Time bomb item throw remapped to qcf.S.
*Item throw durability increased to 3.
*Henkyo Ki now +5 on block at close range; active frames increased by 50% (all levels).
*Canceled ground dash now always behaves the same as her plink dash.
*Ground attacks dash cancelable.
*Ground dash invincible on frames 10 – 25; dash takes 30 total frames to complete; distance unchanged.
*Houten Geki and her air throw now lead to full combos via c.H follow-up.
*Walk speed increased to Morrigan levels.
*c.H now OTGs and is jump-cancelable; travels faster and slightly farther.
*Chireitou startup reduced to 20+3, now carries two characters.

Assists: Senpu Bu L, Henkyo Ki H, Anki Hou S

Bold for the keepers.

*Any reason why item durability and item bomb need to take up separate slots each? I figured they could be put under a single line as part of an anki-hou buff.
*I guess you are playing the negotiation game with Capcom here (aim for the stars and land on the moon)? A 30% speed increase is just five percent below the current XF3 speed increase. It really seems unnecessary with Pendulum Cancel here.
*I made my arguments for adding some simple structure for dizzies. There is a fifteen year precedent in VSav and it really works well with her.
*I gotta say I don't care much about her other assists. Pendulum is at worst a good assist with some utility. I'd rather use the extra slot on something else like improving her Chireitou or the Henkyo-Ki buff.

 

[Dahbomb]

Kinderparty with his Nova/Task/?

Yea I think that was him.

2) Whether Hsien-ko's items should be random or pre-determined (I like random).

NO RANDOM SHIT PLEASE!!!

*Sword Master (all versions) is now an overhead: follow-ups are no longer unblockable.

If we are keeping the follow ups then make them all cancelable into launcher except for the final hit. Otherwise the overhead buff is useless because you won't be able to solo combo off of it.

Chip damage was buffed slightly to make the health buff less daunting for keepaway strategies. It's still a nerf overall.

I have to find my math again but the math comes out to zoning actually being slightly buffed (it's like a 0.4% thing). Characters being able to survive more combos makes zoning more powerful. You need at most one or two more hits on block to chip someone out... but they would need another clean hit to kill. The only big exception to this is Iron Fist, he is the only rushdown character we have improved dramatically although that is pretty much negated by characters like Trish, Storm and Iron Man being much better now.

 

[Karsticles]

Good?

Hsien-ko:
*Air dash speed increased three-fold; aerial momentum retained after attack-canceling.
*Senpu Bu now dash, Henkyo Ki, and j.S-cancelable.; startup reduced by 10 frames (all versions).
*Item throw durability increased to 3; Time Bomb remapped to qcf.S; stun items now regularly appears once every 4 tosses.
*Henkyo Ki now +5 on block at close range; active frames increased by 50% (all levels).
*Canceled ground dash now always behaves the same as her plink dash.
*Ground attacks dash cancelable.
*Ground dash invincible on frames 10 – 25; dash takes 30 total frames to complete; distance unchanged.
*Houten Geki and her air throw now lead to full combos via c.H follow-up.
*c.H now OTGs and is jump-cancelable; travels faster and slightly farther.
*Chireitou startup reduced to 20+3, now carries two characters.

Assists: Senpu Bu L, Henkyo Ki H, Anki Hou S.

Well he's pretty much UMvC3 Tron at the moment if current changes are anything to go by, probably a bit worse actually outside of having a good assist.

Pipe crushing projectiles just doesn't fly and even dahbomb agrees this fucks over anyone that already has a hard time vs him

Haggar can't OS pipe into throws. That's a major nerf in his matchups against rushdown as it is. You need to actually put an argument together if you want to claim he has gone from a great character to complete crap with these changes so far.

If we are keeping the follow ups then make them all cancelable into launcher except for the final hit. Otherwise the overhead buff is useless because you won't be able to solo combo off of it.

Then who would ever do all of the follow-ups?

Also, why would anyone use the H version of Sword Master with this change?

 

[Dahbomb]

Then who would ever do all of the follow-ups?

You would get more damage with the follow ups because the last hit is unscaled. So if you have an assist with you, you would go for the follow up... if not you have the option to cancel before the final hit into a launcher for a self combo.

Also, why would anyone use the H version of Sword Master with this change?

No one uses the H/M version already. L version is superior.. and even then it's useless. Honestly I would cut down the overhead start up from 31 frames to 24 frames.

Basically, the entire moveset is completely shit. The entire idea behind it was that L version was the fastest (at 31 frames) but it led into only 2 more hits. Medium version is longer start up but leads to more hits than L. H version has the highest start up and has the most hits/damage. The problem was that L version was way more practical and the damage you gained from the other versions was negated by the actual combo you would do... the damage was insignificant compared to the start up difference.

 

[SolarPowered]

Good?

Hsien-ko:
*Air dash speed increased three-fold; aerial momentum retained after attack-canceling.
*Senpu Bu now dash, Henkyo Ki, and j.S-cancelable.; startup reduced by 10 frames (all versions).
*Item throw durability increased to 3; Time Bomb remapped to qcf.S; stun items now regularly appears once every 4 tosses.
*Henkyo Ki now +5 on block at close range; active frames increased by 50% (all levels).
*Canceled ground dash now always behaves the same as her plink dash.
*Ground attacks dash cancelable.
*Ground dash invincible on frames 10 – 25; dash takes 30 total frames to complete; distance unchanged.
*Houten Geki and her air throw now lead to full combos via c.H follow-up.
*c.H now OTGs and is jump-cancelable; travels faster and slightly farther.
*Chireitou startup reduced to 20+3, now carries two characters.

Assists: Senpu Bu L, Henkyo Ki H, Anki Hou S.

As good as it gets with Henkyo-Ki remaining a reverse dragon punch motion.

 

[Karsticles]

You would get more damage with the follow ups because the last hit is unscaled. So if you have an assist with you, you would go for the follow up... if not you have the option to cancel before the final hit into a launcher for a self combo.

Going straight into launcher is probably better...

No one uses the H/M version already. L version is superior.. and even then it's useless.

The H version has a lot more follow-ups, resulting in bigger damage. If we're going to make the move useful, let's figure out a way for all 3 versions to be useful.

As good as it gets with Henkyo-Ki remaining a reverse dragon punch motion.

I got used to it. /shrug

 

[QisTopTier]

Haggar can't OS pipe into throws. That's a major nerf in his matchups against rushdown as it is. You need to actually put an argument together if you want to claim he has gone from a great character to complete crap with these changes so far.

He can't OS pipe anymore but pipe itself is now stronger to the point where it does almost the same thing it did before *throws negating assist hitting him unless they linger on screen for a long time* but now it extends past the throw range. This absolutely fucks characters like x-23 over if the haggar player is playing smart

And haggar not being able to ToD should be pretty obvious on why he sucks in that environment with stronger zoners when he already has a hard time getting in. Like I said before the fairest yet dumbest thing you could probably do without altering his other stuff is to make his drop kick projectile immune so he can use it as a decent way to get in with the roll after. But that just sounds stupid

 

[Dahbomb]

Launcher is unsafe, so you can go into Swordmaster series to make it safe.

Like I said if all those follows up were removed I would be OK with it too.

The H version has a lot more follow-ups, resulting in bigger damage. If we're going to make the move useful, let's figure out a way for all 3 versions to be useful.

H version has 57 frame start up.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Did anyone suggest a Haggar pipe throw yet?

And what if he had different versions of his lariat? L+S short version (one rotation) M+S medium and H+S is current version. Cause when he whiffs, he's fucked. Yeah he can cancel into super, but with this change he won't necessarily have to


I dunno...........

 

[Karsticles]

He can't OS pipe anymore but pipe itself is now stronger to the point where it does almost the same thing it did before *throws negating assist hitting him unless they linger on screen for a long time* but now it extends past the throw range.

And haggar not being able to ToD should be pretty obvious on why he sucks in that environment with stronger zoners when he already has a hard time getting in

Haggar has great resets.

And you could say the same thing about keepaway. "It sucks now because you have to hit your opponent so many more times without messing up". I don't think higher damage aids any particular kind of character more than any other. Haggar might have to touch you twice to kill you, but he's also going to be able to block a whole lot more before you take him down.