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Uncharted 4: A Thief's End |OT| You're gonna miss this ass

S

Spring-Loaded

Member
potatohead said:
Because it's also something that is rather inconsistent, so it seems strange to me why focus on the neck snap/choke hold thing, but not the inconsistency in behaviour or violence of cutscene Drake versus gameplay Drake? So I'm asking you to take a devil's advocate position and try to explain why there is a disparity here, if you also feel there is a disparity between killing with a sniper rifle headshot or snapping their neck. It can also help explain to you why there is some creative license given with the violence in gameplay.
Click to expand...

Lmao.

Dude, you wanting to have this discussion is fine, but find another post to kickstart it with. Purely from a gameplay perspective, the neck-snapping seems out of place. I'm not discussing the psychology behind people's reaction to the violence, just saying that neck-snapping doesn't fit.

The shootouts are fun, and they've PG13'd them up through cartoony animations and by not including blood and gore. shooting people is necessary for their gameplay.

Snapping necks isn't necessary within Uncharted's formula — it's an animation for a stealth kill (or, as they refer to them in multiplayer, "K.O."). As far as gameplay cycles go, the animation could be changed to a suckerpunch or a ground slam without changing the flow of action, and without incongruity to the overall intimacy of violence or to the tone.

Fair point to make about player familiarity/desensitization with certain actions, but you acknowledge people find it more brutal here, and that's the takeaway. No matter why people find certain actions in certain contexts more brutal, the neck-snapping in Uncharted is closer to the real thing than the shooting, or the explosions, and it shows. If you could get a knife and stab someone in the game, it would elicit worse reactions than the shooting. It's inconsistent, but it's just the way people will react to it.

I, someone who has willing suspension of disbelief for the action and a subjective threshold for acceptable violence within this particular context, find the neck-snapping to be too far. ND understands this reaction from people, which is why they don't have pools of blood and Soldier of Fortune-level gore in the game. I do wonder what the process behind deciding on neck-snapping was here, considering all the other melee takedowns are less cringeworthy, less intimate, less brutal. Perhaps it was just for simplicity's sake.
 
N

NeoRausch

Member
l1koz.jpg


Awwwww yeahhhh! Thanks for the ride Naughty Dog!
 
J

joms5

Member
Spring-Loaded said:
Lmao.

Dude, you wanting to have this discussion is fine, but find another post to kickstart it with. Purely from a gameplay perspective, the neck-snapping seems out of place. I'm not discussing the psychology behind people's reaction to the violence, just saying that neck-snapping doesn't fit.

The shootouts are fun, and they've PG13'd them up through cartoony animations and by not including blood and gore. shooting people is necessary for their gameplay.

Snapping necks isn't necessary within Uncharted's formula — it's an animation for a stealth kill (or, as they refer to them in multiplayer, "K.O."). As far as gameplay cycles go, the animation could be changed to a suckerpunch or a ground slam without changing the flow of action, and without incongruity to the overall intimacy of violence or to the tone.

Fair point to make about player familiarity/desensitization with certain actions, but you acknowledge people find it more brutal here, and that's the takeaway. No matter why people find certain actions in certain contexts more brutal, the neck-snapping in Uncharted is closer to the real thing than the shooting, or the explosions, and it shows. If you could get a knife and stab someone in the game, it would elicit worse reactions than the shooting. It's inconsistent, but it's just the way people will react to it.

I, someone who has willing suspension of disbelief for the action and a subjective threshold for acceptable violence within this particular context, find the neck-snapping to be too far. ND understands this reaction from people, which is why they don't have pools of blood and Soldier of Fortune-level gore in the game. I do wonder what the process behind deciding on neck-snapping was here, considering all the other melee takedowns are less cringeworthy, less intimate, less brutal. Perhaps it was just for simplicity's sake.
Click to expand...

Personally I'm surprised they didn't just go with a choke hold that knocks the player unconscious. It's almost identical in terms of animation (even less so in fact). As long as both have the same effect as a death (meaning the player can't wake up after a certain period of time) I feel like it would make Nate look more human. The guy isn't a maniac. But he will kill when his life is on the line.

In fact didn't TLOU have unconscious choke holds for a stealth takedown?
 
P

potatohead

Member
As long as we all understand we're talking about a neck snap/choke hold move in a game we're already shooting tons of guys in, then it's fine.

Maybe it's "more brutal" than a sniper rifle to the face (still debatable, since their heads also similarly snap backwards as a result of it, and they usually end up falling a great distance on top of that, that's not "not brutal" so different from the neck snap either).

But as far as saying it is out of character, he's already murdered plenty of guys with guns in gameplay too, so whether he dispatches a few here and there with his hands is really barely any different. Not seeing that one.

On the whole there's really no relishing in any of the death animations in this game. Which is why I'd still argue it's all pretty cartoony violence, no action so significantly more violent than anything else in the game.
Fancy Clown said:
Yeah that's right, they're just...sleeping. A nice. long. Sleep.
Click to expand...
The sleep shotgun to the face is even better and more efficient, no witnesses!
 
M

MegaSackman

Member
You're having super long arguments just to say that you didn't feel the game and that's fine, discussing neck snapping is digging beyond the core of the earth, everything stops after "The game didn't click to me"

Nate is a mix between Indy and McClane, he's gonna kill people, you either accept that or don't.
 
R

Ricky_R

Member
potatohead said:
As long as we all understand we're talking about a neck snap/choke hold move in a game we're already shooting tons of guys in, then it's fine.

Maybe it's "more brutal" than a sniper rifle to the face (still debatable).

But as far as saying it is out of character, he's already murdered plenty of guys with guns in gameplay too, so whether he dispatches a few here and there with his hands is really barely any different.

On the whole there's really no relishing in any of the death animations in this game. Which is why I'd still argue it's all pretty cartoony violence.
Click to expand...

I mean, I get you, but I also understand those who don't see the neck snap very Uncharted-ish... I'm pretty open minded and ludocrative dissonance doesn't bother me one bit, but I do feel a small tickle whenever I hear that neck break. A weird feeling like it JUST doesn't belong there. Not sure how to explain it.

I think a very short strangle (like a quarter of the time it takes to strangle in TLOU) would've been better overall. I still don't mind it though and it doesn't hamper my experience like at all.
 
X

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
Neck break is so satisfying, *snap!* and on to the next.

These fuckers are trying to kill me and my family...no remorse.
 
P

potatohead

Member
Ricky_R said:
I mean, I get you, but I also understand those who don't see the neck snap very Uncharted-ish... I'm pretty open minded and ludocrative dissonance doesn't bother me one bit, but I do feel a small tickle whenever I hear that neck break. A weird feeling like it JUST doesn't belong there. Not sure how to explain it.

I think a very short strangle (like a quarter of the time it takes to strangle in TLOU) would've been better overall. I still don't mind it though and it doesn't hamper my experience like at all.
Click to expand...

Yea I get where you guys are coming from too. I think it is just less different imo, that's all.

I thought it was a pretty short strangle. Maybe I just didn't have my volume up enough to hear the crackles and pops ;)

Maybe because I crack my fingers a lot so it doesn't bother me also in that way ^^
 
R

Ricky_R

Member
potatohead said:
Yea I get where you guys are coming from too. I think it is just less different imo, that's all.

I thought it was a pretty short strangle. Maybe I just didn't have my volume up enough to hear the crackles and pops ;)

Maybe because I crack my fingers a lot so it doesn't bother me also in that way ^^
Click to expand...

Haha I hear those fuckers loud and clear since I game with headphones.
 
N

Neiteio

Member
Spring-Loaded said:
Lmao.

Dude, you wanting to have this discussion is fine, but find another post to kickstart it with. Purely from a gameplay perspective, the neck-snapping seems out of place. I'm not discussing the psychology behind people's reaction to the violence, just saying that neck-snapping doesn't fit.

The shootouts are fun, and they've PG13'd them up through cartoony animations and by not including blood and gore. shooting people is necessary for their gameplay.

Snapping necks isn't necessary within Uncharted's formula — it's an animation for a stealth kill (or, as they refer to them in multiplayer, "K.O."). As far as gameplay cycles go, the animation could be changed to a suckerpunch or a ground slam without changing the flow of action, and without incongruity to the overall intimacy of violence or to the tone.

Fair point to make about player familiarity/desensitization with certain actions, but you acknowledge people find it more brutal here, and that's the takeaway. No matter why people find certain actions in certain contexts more brutal, the neck-snapping in Uncharted is closer to the real thing than the shooting, or the explosions, and it shows. If you could get a knife and stab someone in the game, it would elicit worse reactions than the shooting. It's inconsistent, but it's just the way people will react to it.

I, someone who has willing suspension of disbelief for the action and a subjective threshold for acceptable violence within this particular context, find the neck-snapping to be too far. ND understands this reaction from people, which is why they don't have pools of blood and Soldier of Fortune-level gore in the game. I do wonder what the process behind deciding on neck-snapping was here, considering all the other melee takedowns are less cringeworthy, less intimate, less brutal. Perhaps it was just for simplicity's sake.
Click to expand...
I agree with you the snapping is too far and wholly unnecessary. As far as why ND reasoned it was OK, they probably figure it's quick and quiet and the enemy doesn't know what hit them. But it's still super-uncomfortable for us players to perform. I hate that sound. :-\

In general, though, I think this game did a better job handling the violence. I feel they adequately convey that Drake is outnumbered and outgunned by people that won't hesitate to kill him, so every attack (including those where he makes the first move) is out of self-defense. Like Rafe notes at one point, "(Nate and Sam) can't kill in cold blood." Nate doesn't wisecrack about killing people anymore, either.

We also have Nate's appalled reaction to
Rafe murdering Vargas
, and a cute animal moment with
the lemur in the market
, which also makes Nate seem less psycho. All of that combined with the "heightened reality" of pulp fiction where bad guys are mindless monsters and death carries little weight (outside important characters) means it feels pretty mild.

But the neck-snapping... Yeah. Still don't like that stuff in these games.
 
A

Alienous

Member
I know why they went with a neck snap, it makes more sense than choking a dude out in half a second. It's a gameplay conceit. Maybe a tackle-punch would have been worth implementing - it would suit the game better. It might be harder to rationalize being silent, but that's less rationalization needed for Nate feeling a dude's upper spine crumble in his arms.
 
N

Neiteio

Member
Alienous said:
I know why they went with a neck snap, it makes more sense than choking a dude out in half a second. It's a gameplay conceit. Maybe a tackle-punch would have been worth implementing - it would suit the game better. It might be harder to rationalize being silent, but that's less rationalization needed for Nate feeling a dude's upper spine crumble in his arms.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I think MGS4 did it best. Old Snake just spiked people face-first into the ground, knocking them out. It would seem loud, but the guards never noticed. :)
 
P

potatohead

Member
pastrami said:
The way I see it, snapping necks is just a classic movie trope. It's not something that really happens in real life. And this is why I think TLOU doesn't use it. It's too goofy and unrealistic a move for a game trying to depict more serious violence. But I think it fits perfectly within the Uncharted universe.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeckSnap
Click to expand...

Yes this is a good point, I shouldn't went more on the abstraction angle (it's the same reason I don't have a problem shooting so many people in UC... it's fun and I don't care :D).

But yea... so basically Drake actually went back in time at some point between Uncharted 3 and Uncharted 4 to take secret lessons on neck snapping from Big Boss?
 
A

Alienous

Member
pastrami said:
The way I see it, snapping necks is just a classic movie trope. It's not something that really happens in real life. And this is why I think TLOU doesn't use it. It's too goofy and unrealistic a move for a game trying to depict more serious violence. But I think it fits perfectly within the Uncharted universe.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeckSnap
Click to expand...

Well, Joel snaps a dudes neck in a cutscene, so...

potatohead said:
So basically Drake actually went back in time at some point between Uncharted 3 and Uncharted 4 to take secret lessons on neck snapping from Big Boss?
Click to expand...

Oh no, he's been snapping necks since UC2.
 
P

potatohead

Member
So what you're trying to say is Elena is the real problem here...

It all makes sense now. She is the true neck snapping virtuoso behind the scenes!
 
N

Neiteio

Member
Ricky_R said:
He actually practiced in Uncharted 2. People tend to forget that he snapped necks back then.
Click to expand...
I didn't forget. That's where I felt Nate was most detestable. He actually shouted "There goes your neck!" back in UC2.

I hated that detail, so in my head canon it's not part of his character. :-\
 
P

potatohead

Member
Alienous said:
Nate didn't know how to stealth then. If he did he would have been snapping necks.
Click to expand...

There is stealth, just only in specific parts and after you are found you can't escape back into stealth mode.

It's not like specifically a mechanic, but e.g. that first jungle arena fight, you can drop the first 3 guys with melee without anyone seeing you.

After that they automatically spot you.
 
A

Alienous

Member
pastrami said:
Hm, I don't remember that. Either way, I still stand by my point.
Click to expand...

Well, if your point was that TLOU doesn't snap necks because it's depicting realistic violence, that doesn't seem right. He snaps the neck of a dude right after putting a knife in his knee.

Again, it was probably for gameplay reasons. Nate snaps necks in UC4 because it's a quick way of dispatching of a foe quickly and quietly (in a video game). Whereas The Last of Us wants to incentivize the use of shivs, and it wouldn't make sense to snap a dude's neck slowly, so you choke them out.
 
V

ViewtifulJC

Banned
One day I'm sure they'll make an exciting 10+ hour action adventure game where you kill like 4 people and few things blow up that could sell to millions of people.

Today is not that day.
 
A

Alienous

Member
ViewtifulJC said:
One day I'm sure they'll make an exciting 10+ hour action adventure game where you kill like 4 people and few things blow up that could sell to millions of people.

Today is not that day.
Click to expand...

As surprising as it may seem, the bodycount isn't what people tend to have the 'issue' with. Which makes sense, because there isn't a shooter out there where you don't kill a ludicrous amount of people.
 
M

MegaSackman

Member
ViewtifulJC said:
One day I'm sure they'll make an exciting 10+ hour action adventure game where you kill like 4 people and few things blow up that could sell to millions of people.

Today is not that day.
Click to expand...

You described Tomb Raider 1 although you kill several animals there but no one complained.
 
BiGBoSSMk23

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
OK, Charted on Crushing.

What the fuck at the ship graveyard shootouts.

I had to hoard grenades to spam at the machine brute and strategically take down the gasmask dudes with the Barok.

Sounds easy but the trial and error to get to that was rage inducing.

Two brutes, two grapplers, a grenade launcher and 4 armored snipers, PLUS the regular baddies with dead eye aim.

ND pls
 
T

tcrunch

Member
Hmmm mountain of thousands of corpses...but you get
a dream house on the beach
...an easy bid for anyone I'm sure...
 
N

Neiteio

Member
ViewtifulJC said:
One day I'm sure they'll make an exciting 10+ hour action adventure game where you kill like 4 people and few things blow up that could sell to millions of people.

Today is not that day.
Click to expand...
I've never had a problem with the body count. I just see it as "movie time." In a movie it takes five minutes for a door to dramatically close, but in the story it takes a few seconds. So in a game's case, the player might kill a small army but in the story, it would actually be just a handful of goons (and purely out of self-defense, for that matter).

It's just the way some of them are killed that bothers me, given the context of an otherwise likable protagonist. But UC4 was much improved in this respect. The neck-snapping was the only thing that still bothered me, given the context.
 
A

Alienous

Member
tcrunch said:
Hmmm mountain of thousands of corpses...but you get
a dream house on the beach
...an easy bid for anyone I'm sure...
Click to expand...

Hey, he
earned that house with his blood gold
. Don't you dare besmirch his good name.

Neiteio said:
I've never had a problem with the body count. I just see it as "movie time." In a movie it takes five minutes for a door to dramatically close, but in the story it takes a few seconds. So in a game's case, the player might kill a small army but in the story, it would actually be just a handful of goons (and purely out of self-defense, for that matter).

It's just the way some of them are killed that bothers me, given the context of an otherwise likable protagonist. But UC4 was much improved in this respect. The neck-snapping was the only thing that still bothered me, given the context.
Click to expand...

Same. The only time the killing bothered me in Uncharted 4 was the neck-snapping. It's just "that doesn't feel like what he'd do". It was only the neck-snapping, and one time with throwing a grenade at someone's feet for the few seconds before they comically rocket into the air.
 
R

Ricky_R

Member
Alienous said:
As surprising as it may seem, the bodycount isn't what people tend to have the 'issue' with. Which makes sense, because there isn't a shooter out there where you don't kill a ludicrous amount of people.
Click to expand...

Actually, Drake being a mass murdered was one of the main reasons Uncharted became a target. It's only now that people are focusing on his neck fetish.
 
Daffy Duck

Daffy Duck

Member
Well

Drake finally learnt to swim underwater

Really enjoying this so far

upto the pirate markes chapter and really enjoying it
 
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