Uncharted 4: A Thief's End |OT| You're gonna miss this ass

Ricky_R said:
Actually, Drake being a mass murdered was one of the main reasons Uncharted became a target. It's only now that people are focusing on his neck fetish.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about that. By that metric every shooter would have been made a target.

Like, even the Penny Arcade comic was a commentary on how he'll throw a dude off a cliff without a care in the world.

So it can't have been the body count; again, every game would be a target. I think the root of it always was Nate not seeming like the kind of dude who would kill someone, not that he amasses a large body count.
 
I actually felt that I needed to stealth my way through most situations just to stay in-character as Drake in this one. The neck-snapping really didn't fit.
 
Alienous said:
Well, if your point was that TLOU doesn't snap necks because it's depicting realistic violence, that doesn't seem right. He snaps the neck of a dude right after putting a knife in his knee.

Again, it was probably for gameplay reasons. Nate snaps necks in UC4 because it's a quick way of dispatching of a foe quickly and quietly (in a video game). Whereas The Last of Us wants to incentivize the use of shivs, and it wouldn't make sense to snap a dude's neck slowly, so you choke them out.
Click to expand...

Well, my TLOU point was tangential to my point about neck snapping in Uncharted. It feels tonally fine. It's like Arnold Schwarzenegger snapping necks in an 80s/90s action movie.
 
Rapier said:
OK, Charted on Crushing.

What the fuck at the ship graveyard shootouts.

I had to hoard grenades to spam at the machine brute and strategically take down the gasmask dudes with the Barok.

Sounds easy but the trial and error to get to that was rage inducing.

Two brutes, two grapplers, a grenade launcher and 4 armored snipers, PLUS the regular baddies with dead eye aim.

ND pls
Click to expand...

Yea that was the hardest fight I think.

Also the Catacombs on Crushing.... that very first fight... ugh. I probably died like 25 times in 10 minutes lmao.
 
The difference in other shooters is in other games because you're usually a government approved soldier. Im Master Chief or Marcus Fenix fighting aliens invading the planet, Im Pvt. Soap fighting terrorists with WMDs, Im Vanquish man fighting evil robots that want to destroy America, Im Coach from L4D2 killing zombies who are basically already dead anyway. Nobody questions that. Now I'm just some thief fuckin up other thieves, and this time I don't have the excuse "of, well, if we dont stop the bad guys they're gonna destroy the world with this thing!".

Nah, its just some greedy assholes shooting each other over money.
 
Alienous said:
I'm not sure about that. By that metric every shooter would have been made a target.

Like, even the Penny Arcade comic was a commentary on how he'll throw a dude off a cliff without a care in the world.

So it can't have been the body count; again, every game would be a target. I think the root of it always was Nate not seeming like the kind of dude who would kill someone, not that he amasses a large body count.
Click to expand...
Exactly. It's only an issue with UC because Nate is so likable that he feels like a friend, which makes it disturbing when he nonchalantly kills people.

Like I said, though, it's better now in UC4. It's just that gosh darn neck-snapping!
 
ViewtifulJC said:
The difference in other shooters is in other games because you're usually a government approved soldier. Im Master Chief or Marcus Fenix fighting aliens invading the planet, Im Pvt. Soap fighting terrorists with WMDs, Im Vanquish man fighting evil robots that want to destroy America, Im Coach from L4D2 killing zombies who are basically already dead anyway. Nobody questions that. Now I'm just some thief fuckin up other thieves, and this time I don't have the excuse "of, well, if we dont stop the bad guys they're gonna destroy the world with this thing!".

Nah, its just some greedy assholes shooting each other over money.
Click to expand...

Pretty much. The leap to a soldier killing his enemies is pretty easy to make. The leap to a treasure hunter putting bullets in his foes is less so; it'd be like if the Crocodile Hunter shot people on his excursions ('They were poaching the animals!').

It's about as well handled in Uncharted 4 as is possible. His context is a lot more justifiable.
 
Alienous said:
I'm not sure about that. By that metric every shooter would have been made a target.

Like, even the Penny Arcade comic was a commentary on how he'll throw a dude off a cliff without a care in the world.

So it can't have been the body count; again, every game would be a target.
Click to expand...

I think you're confusing that one guard he threw down in the Museum level which sparked controversy. It was later confirmed that the guard supposedly lived and could be seen swimming away. I don't know cause I couldn't have care less about that.

The issue was initially (it not initially, it was definitely the biggest) about Drake being a mass murderer. Druckmann even talked about it in an interview and even mentioned GAF. I mean, there's been countless threads where Drake being one is brought up.
 
Ricky_R said:
I think you're confusing that one guard he threw down in the Museum level which sparked controversy. It was later confirmed that the guard supposedly lived and could be seen swimming away. I don't know cause I couldn't have care less about that.

The issue was initially about Drake being a mass murderer. Druckmann even talked about it in an interview and even mentioned GAF.
Click to expand...

I genuinely think Druckmann misunderstands the issue. Or, at least, he has a fairly surface take on it. Not that it isn't handled well in UC4, because both he and Josh are good writers, but I think he attributes too much of it to the bodycount and not enough of it to the 'personality dissonance'. The 'mass murderer' thing comes from 'Nate is a realistic character; it's weird that he kills so nonchalantly' more than 'Nate kills a lot of people', I think.
 
NullPointer said:
This is the kicker with UC4. The stakes are entirely different, and pretty damn weak this time around.
Click to expand...
I agree there's a dissonance problem re: Nate and certain violent acts, but I think the stakes justify the encounters. Nate's in this to save his brother. If it was just a peaceful race to the treasure, there'd be no violence. Nate only kills because the others are trying to kill him and his loved ones, and he's only in that situation because Sam's life depends on it.

(Ending spoilers)
Or so he thinks. And of course this all makes Sam pretty suspect.
 
Alienous said:
I genuinely think Druckmann misunderstands the issue. Or, at least, he has a fairly surface take on it. Not that it isn't handled well in UC4, because both he and Josh are good writers, but I think he attributes too much of it to the bodycount and not enough of it to the 'personality dissonance'.
Click to expand...

Well, yeah... The issue with most is that the personality doesn't go well with all the killing and the jokes during said killings. However, the base of the controversy was the amount of people Drake killed with such swagger.

So, body count has definitive been an issue, and I'd argue it's been one of the main ones.
 
Ricky_R said:
Well, yeah... The issue with most is that the personality doesn't go well with all the killing and the jokes during said killings. However, the base of the controversy was the amount of people Drake killed with such swagger.

So, body count has definitive been an issue, and I'd argue it's been one of the main ones.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I think much of this controversy never would've occurred had Nate not been so jokey while killing in UC2.

On a side note, nice to see this thread active again!
 
Ricky_R said:
Well, yeah... The issue with most is that the personality doesn't go well with all the killing and the jokes during said killings. However, the base of the controversy was the amount of people Drake killed with such swagger.

So, body count has definitive been an issue, and I'd argue it's been one of the main ones.
Click to expand...

But that's what I'm saying, it can't be. There are games where you kill a ton more people that don't get nearly as much flak. So that can't be the problem. That might be what people think the problem is, but it can't be that, not just that at least.
 
Ricky_R said:
Well, yeah... The issue with most is that the personality doesn't go well with all the killing and the jokes during said killings. However, the base of the controversy was the amount of people Drake killed with such swagger.

So, body count has definitive been an issue, and I'd argue it's been one of the main ones.
Click to expand...

He's made comparisons to movies that has main characters making jokes every time they kill an enemy.
 
Alienous said:
But that's what I'm saying, it can't be. There are games where you kill a ton more people that don't get nearly as much flak. So that can't be the problem. That might be what people think the problem is, but it can't be that, not just that at least.
Click to expand...

Which is one of the reasons why I find the complaint rather absurd. That's why the phrase "mass-murderer" has been so freely used when talking about the issue, which makes me think that if Nate killed far less people, the complaints wouldn't have been as many.
 
gundamkyoukai said:
I like it more this way to tell the truth .
Saving the world shit gets boring .
So i rather he killing to save someone that is important to him .
Click to expand...
That sounds right, but then you kill
the guard staff at the black market auction and a ton of Nadine's mercenaries, guarding their own dig sites.

Even with reasons you come across as the big murderous assholes at the very least.

Now, I only care about this stuff to the extent that the story drives the action. And in that sense I found the "good guys" motivations to be suspect throughout.
Rafe, Nadine, Elena and Sully made perfect sense, but they're also pretty straightforward.
 
NullPointer said:
That sounds right, but then you kill
the guard staff at the black market auction and a ton of Nadine's mercenaries, guarding their own dig sites.

Even with reasons you come across as the big murderous assholes at the very least.
Click to expand...
All of those people were looking to kill you on sight.
 
NullPointer said:
That sounds right, but then you kill
the guard staff at the black market auction and a ton of Nadine's mercenaries, guarding their own dig sites.

Even with reasons you come across as the big murderous assholes at the very least.
Click to expand...

Well they both groups were trying to kill me first .
I was just trying to steal from them lol

Don't forget the first time you meet Nadine
she almost kill you by throwing out a window
 
NullPointer said:
But YOU were the interloper, knowing full well that each place was guarded. Them trying to kill you doesn't make them the bad guys.
Click to expand...
I kinda see your point, but you were trying to save your brother, and they were thugs trying to kill you for taking that which you needed to save Sam.

I'm not sure it's so black and white.
 
Neiteio said:
I kinda see your point, but you were trying to save your brother, and they were thugs trying to kill you for taking that which you needed to save Sam.

I'm not sure it's so black and white.
Click to expand...

Plus it was
black market auction so i doubt most of the people there were innocent in a way that i would care .
 
Its easier for Indiana Jones because he's fighting the ultimate personification of evil in pop culture with Nazis. Nobody complains when you shoot Nazis. And he had the moral high ground cuz "If we dont stop them, they'll become powerful and control the world" with the Christian artifact.

The one part that really bugged me is the big set piece in chapter 11. They've basically destroyed the whole town with this wild chase, Sam and Nathan do that privileged white men laugh as the black dock workers look on in shock and despair at the destruction of their homes/workstations, and they drive off consequence free.

Now usually that kind of stuff nobody cares about cuz its glossed over so fast. In the Raiders truck chase, Indy crashes through a few local's workstations, and there's even a joke when that guy ends up on the windshield. But its just such a huge fucking tour of destruction that the casual pause at the end before they're off to the next wacky thing bugged me.

It reminded me of that totally pointless car chase through San Franchiso Michael Bay added to The Rock cuz he felt there wasn't enough action. There is NO narrative reason for it to exist. It can be cut entirely and you miss nothing. Nic Cage and Sean Connery just tear through the entire town, there's a dumb joke at the end, angry black workers about how his livelihood was destroyed, all that shit. Its because Michael Bay is an anti-humanistic storyteller, like a bizarro world Hayao Miyazaki. He constructs chaos and people are just props for vulgar jokes and rapidly edited chaos.

Just an odd beat to be reminded of in a mostly smart, humanistic blockbuster, thats all
 
NullPointer said:
Oh noes!
People putting up statues and vases and nick-nacks for sale on the black market. Guess its OK to kill em all.

Really? Really?
Click to expand...

If there trying to kill me yes .
It's thieves stealing from thieves , that is the way how it goes .
Also
if you want to go deeper how much people you think get kill for those statues ,vases and nick-nacks
 
Finally finished the SP last night. The MP was keeping me away!

Anyway, I thought it was good and not great. I liked the changes to the way that fights happen, but I almost would have preferred a few instances that were more like previous Uncharted games. I had a few sections where my checkpoint was me with 4 bullets in each of my guns and I was facing a half dozen armored enemies that all shot me as soon as my head poked out. Every death started me right back in my unwinnable situation.

I also think the "exploration" has gotten unbelievably stale. After playing all of the Uncharted games, I just no longer get any excitement from the planned set pieces. I can almost guess when a rock is going to give way under me as I'm climbing a cliff. The climbing is no longer any fun and neither is the walking around.
 
Lol!

I bet Neil Druckmann and Bruce Straley frequent this thread and have a good laugh at all the "Ludonarrative Dissonance" discussion taking place.

In action-adventure movies, sometimes people get killed. Either people kill them, or they fall to their deaths because someone shot/pushed/pulled them, etc.

That's just an essential of the genre and it's reflected as a part of this game.
 
Deckard Chapel said:
Lol!

I bet Neil Druckmann and Bruce Straley frequent this thread and have a good laugh at all the "Ludonarrative Dissonance" discussion taking place.

In action-adventure movies, sometimes people get killed. Either people kill them, or they fall to their deaths because someone shot/pushed/pulled them, etc.

That's just an essential of the genre and it's reflected as a part of this game.
Click to expand...

We've already gotten past that point of the discussion into the real discussion. Feel free to check out the last few pages.

And whilst killing might be essential to shooters ludonarrative dissonance isn't.
 
Alienous said:
Come to think of it I do believe Rafe legally owns and acquired the land that the Shoreline PMCs are protecting. Hmm...
Click to expand...

Was talking about the
Black market auction .
Plus Rafe partner try to kill me a short while ago and Rafe is thief and murderer .
It's not like i am saying any of these people are good guys or nate right in doing what he doing .

ViewtifulJC said:
It reminded me of that totally pointless car chase through San Franchiso Michael Bay added to The Rock cuz he felt there wasn't enough action. There is NO narrative reason for it to exist. It can be cut entirely and you miss nothing. Nic Cage and Sean Connery just tear through the entire town, there's a dumb joke at the end, angry black workers about how his livelihood was destroyed, all that shit. Its because Michael Bay is an anti-humanistic storyteller, like a bizarro world Hayao Miyazaki. He constructs chaos and people are just props for vulgar jokes and rapidly edited chaos.
Click to expand...

Well movies are there to entertain and people love that stuff .
So while there is no narrative reason for it to be there .
There are other reasons why .
Plus playing in chaos event are awesome .
 
gundamkyoukai said:
Well movies are there to entertain and people love that stuff .
So while there is no narrative reason for it to be there .
There are other reasons why .
Click to expand...

I'm a firm believer that action should not be show-stoppers. The story shouldn't STOP because we need an action sequence here. The action should be be motivated by the characters and the plot, all flowing together as one narrative. Like a good dance number in a musical that expresses the characters' feelings or relationships or major action. They need to matter in some way, and the scene in the Rock doesn't. Nothing of consequences comes out of it. It has zero effect on the character dynamics between Nic Cage and Sean Connery's character. Its never brought up again. It advances none of the movie's themes, advances the main plot of breaking into Alcatraz not one bit. Its completely superfluous. Its very obviously something that was added in post-production cuz Michael Bay thinks audiences are attention-deficit idiots who whine about not having enough action

(the irony of me saying this in an Uncharted 4 thread where that's the main criticism is not lost on me, btw)
 
ViewtifulJC said:
I'm a firm believer that action should not be show-stoppers. The story shouldn't STOP because we need an action sequence here. The action should be be motivated by the characters and the plot, all flowing together as one narrative. Like a good dance number in a musical that expresses the characters' feelings or relationships or major action. They need to matter in some way, and the scene in the Rock doesn't. Nothing of consequences comes out of it. It has zero effect on the character dynamics between Nic Cage and Sean Connery's character. Its never brought up again. It advances none of the movie's themes, advances the main plot of breaking into Alcatraz not one bit. Its completely superfluous.
Click to expand...

I think the narrative purpose of that set piece is to drive home the fact that Nate is still very much in love with the adventure.

th
Click to expand...

After all that chaos, Sam and him laugh and ride off into the sunset. In the following scene when confronted by Elena he says it's different this time and he doesn't even care about the adventure; he is only there to save Sam. Elena points out that this is clearly bullshit.

At least that is what I took away from it; obviously they are still privileged assholes destroying that poor town. I just try not to think about that, I doubt Nate does.
 
I was mostly talking about the Rock in that sequence, I think Uncharted 4 does enough to justify its big set piece with saving Sam and what you mentioned about how excited he about being on an adventure again, which leads to the emotional high point of the Elena confrontation. "That look on your face when you came in here...."

Now if we were talking about the entire Boat chapter of Uncharted 3, which happens for literally no fuckin' reason at all, and has to end with a series of coincidences of Nathan Drake just so happen to survive being lost at sea, and just so happens to land back in town, and just so happens to arrive at Elena's place so they can get back to the actual plot...THERE's a sequence that could have been cut and changed the narrative not one bit.
 
Alienous said:
We've already gotten past that point of the discussion into the real discussion. Feel free to check out the last few pages.

And whilst killing might be essential to shooters ludonarrative dissonance isn't.
Click to expand...

I checked out the last few pages - it seems like topics are all over the place...

Is it about the ending being divisive or Nate's identity as a person leaving the adventure side of his life?
 
ViewtifulJC said:
I was mostly talking about the Rock in that sequence, I think Uncharted 4 does enough to justify its big set piece with saving Sam and what you mentioned about how excited he about being on an adventure again, which leads to the emotional high point of the Elena confrontation. "That look on your face when you came in here...."

Now if we were talking about the entire Boat chapter of Uncharted 3, which happens for literally no fuckin' reason at all, and has to end with a series of coincidences of Nathan Drake just so happen to survive being lost at sea, and just so happens to land back in town, and just so happens to arrive at Elena's place so they can get back to the actual plot...THERE's a sequence that could have been cut and changed the narrative not one bit.
Click to expand...

The worst.

Deckard Chapel said:
Lol!

I bet Neil Druckmann and Bruce Straley frequent this thread and have a good laugh at all the "Ludonarrative Dissonance" discussion taking place.

In action-adventure movies, sometimes people get killed. Either people kill them, or they fall to their deaths because someone shot/pushed/pulled them, etc.

That's just an essential of the genre and it's reflected as a part of this game.
Click to expand...

They clearly do care as they go out of there way to set up the antagonism and try to keep the violence light and mostly guilt free. I'm sure as designers they would love to have Nate performing brutal finishers and blowing off people's heads as that can be very fun and satisfying but they are ultimately slaves to the narrative.

The Tomb Raider reboot legit had problems regarding ludonarrative dissonance but as I gave so few shits about the characters and story, it really didn't bother me. :p
 
zsynqx said:
They clearly do care as they go out of there way to set up the antagonism and try to keep the violence light and mostly guilt free. I'm sure as designers they would love to have Nate performing brutal finishers and blowing off people's heads as that can be very fun and satisfying but they are ultimately slaves to the narrative.
Click to expand...

They slaves to the rating also at least for UC .
UC can have all of that but then it would be rated M .
There no narrative reason why people look so funny when things explode lol.
 
gundamkyoukai said:
They slaves to the rating also at least for UC .
UC can have all of that but then it would be rated M .
Click to expand...

If it had all that blood and gore I'd be more likely to buy into the the idea that 'Nate is a mass murderer'. Death has little consequence in Uncharted and adding TLOU style violence and an M rating would hurt that.
 
zsynqx said:
If it had all that blood and gore I'd be more likely to buy into the the idea 'Nate is a mass murderer'. Death has little consequence in Uncharted and adding TLOU style violence and an M rating would hurt that.
Click to expand...

That is true .
Side note i wonder after TLOU will ND do more M rated games.
Since the sales were so good they might not care anymore about the T ratings .
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Halo 4 on an xbox one...
6
10K
Ardamaeus replied
Uncharted 4: A Thief's End Multiplayer |OT| Swinging To Victory
152 153 154 155 156
8K
618K
Negotiator replied
  • Locked
Fate/Grand Order |OT| That's Hell You're Walking Into
228 229 230 231 232
12K
2M
EviLore replied
FireWall Zero Hour |OT| VR Group Sex With Optional Toys Required
22
4K
Bullet Club replied
NieR: Automata |OT2| You're thinking how much you want to **** this game aren't you?
21 22 23 24 25
1K
166K
JareBear: Remastered replied
Top Bottom