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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 Offseason Thread

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pulga

pulga

Banned
Loke13 said:
Why is everyone acting as if that's the only reason why Tyrion has to go to Essos in the show? As if the murder of the King and his Hand isn't a good enough reason to get the hell out of dodge. Hiding out from your vengeance ridden sister who just happens to be the Queen in another country seems like a good idea.
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What? I never said Tyrion went to Essos because of it, he was literally shipped off in a barrell, he had no choice in the matter. All I said it was his main driver for a good part of his chapters.

Brakke said:
I don't know how you think that second sentence follows from the first. Of course I want character development; "where do whores go" is poor motivation. Changing Tyrion's time in Essos to be anything but the random wandering and feeling surly from the books will almost certainly be an improvement.
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So you don't think a love-starved man finding out that the woman who he thought betrayed him did truly love him all along is important? It's a massive part of Tyrion's character moving forward.

What's he going to do now anyway, considering Young Griff looks to be cut? Hangs out with Illyrio for a while, goes to a whorehouse and meets up with Jorah? SMH
 
J

Jigorath

Banned
Morrigan Stark said:
And that is why it's such great drama when Tyrion rejects him and they get separated. It was heartbreaking and sad and powerful, and started Tyrion down his dark path even deeper.

The show stripped all of that "because bromance" and because they're too cowardly to make Tyrion an anti-hero. It's pathetic. And they do this like that constantly because they don't get what makes good drama. It's a very superficial adaptation.
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As much as I love Tyrion I hate how the show has turned him into a saint who can do no wrong. I remember him confessing about how he wants to rape Cersei in the books. I highly doubt they'll put a line like that in the show because it would make him look bad.
 
B

Brakke

Banned
pulga said:
So you don't think a love-starved man finding out that the woman who he thought betrayed him did truly love him all along is important? It's a massive part of Tyrion's character moving forward.
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In what way is this true? Point me to any interaction he has in the books that's informed or colored by that one revelation in some kind of instrumental way.

It's lame and cheap and dumb that we spend hundreds and hundreds of pages seeing this dude's experiences but then he himself dwells so obsessively on the one we don't even see. It's not a good drawing of a human. Tyrion's had a long and rich life full of many triumphs and many traumas. How long was he even married to Tysha? Less long than he spent with Shae I expect. Tysha is boring and obsessing on her isn't earned, the stakes are so low there. Tyrion's personally responsible for killing tens of thousands of men on the Blackwater. So his brother lied to him once? So what?

"I thought my first love was a liar therefore I've spent my entire life treating women as disposable and as liars but oh man I didn't even realize maybe sometimes love is real"? Give me a break.
 
T

TheXbox

Member
Brakke said:
In what way is this true? Point me to any interaction he has in the books that's informed or colored by that one revelation in some kind of instrumental way.

It's lame and cheap and dumb that we spend hundreds and hundreds of pages seeing this dude's experiences but then he himself dwells so obsessively on the one we don't even see. It's not a good drawing of a human. Tyrion's had a long and rich life full of many triumphs and many traumas. How long was he even married to Tysha? Less long than he spent with Shae I expect. Tysha is boring and obsessing on her isn't earned, the stakes are so low there. Tyrion's personally responsible for killing tens of thousands of men on the Blackwater. So his brother lied to him once? So what?

"I thought my first love was a liar therefore I've spent my entire life treating women as disposable and as liars but oh man I didn't even realize maybe sometimes love is real"? Give me a break.
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Isn't the genesis of his internal conflict his family's betrayal? That's what drives him to murder his father, shit on Jaime, take credit for Joffrey's death, and vow to have revenge. We never see Tysha because she isn't important. It doesn't matter where she is now, hence the ambiguous "wherever whores go" line. His obsessesion over her and that encounter with his father shouldn't be mistaken as the realization of true love. It is instead a constant reminder of how he was utterly spurned by the people who should have loved him, and it fucking ruins him.
 
B

Brakke

Banned
TheXbox said:
Isn't the genesis of his internal conflict his family's betrayal? That's what drives him to murder his father, shit on Jaime, take credit for Joffrey's death, and vow to have revenge. We never see Tysha because she isn't important. It doesn't matter where she is now, hence the ambiguous "wherever whores go" line. His obsessesion over her and that encounter with his father shouldn't be mistaken as the realization of true love. It is instead a constant reminder of how he was utterly spurned by the people who should have loved him, and it fucking ruins him.
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Yes I agree. I'm saying he has more than enough evidence of all that without Tysha. His father boning Shae checks the same "family betrayal that goes one too far" box as "Jaime lied about Tysha" does.
 
pulga

pulga

Banned
Brakke said:
In what way is this true? Point me to any interaction he has in the books that's informed or colored by that one revelation in some kind of instrumental way.

It's lame and cheap and dumb that we spend hundreds and hundreds of pages seeing this dude's experiences but then he himself dwells so obsessively on the one we don't even see. It's not a good drawing of a human. Tyrion's had a long and rich life full of many triumphs and many traumas. How long was he even married to Tysha? Less long than he spent with Shae I expect. Tysha is boring and obsessing on her isn't earned, the stakes are so low there. Tyrion's personally responsible for killing tens of thousands of men on the Blackwater. So his brother lied to him once? So what?

"I thought my first love was a liar therefore I've spent my entire life treating women as disposable and as liars but oh man I didn't even realize maybe sometimes love is real"? Give me a break.
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If Tysha getting raped by a whole battalion didn't happen, he'd still be married, have kids, and be fucking around in Lannisport or something. It's important, I don't understand why you're so adamant it isn't. Tyrion's worldview absolutely changed after the fact.

And I think you're forgetting the fact he's a fucking dwarf and love didn't exactly come around that often for them in Martin's world.
 
R

Red Arremer

Member
Jigorath said:
As much as I love Tyrion I hate how the show has turned him into a saint who can do no wrong. I remember him confessing about how he wants to rape Cersei in the books. I highly doubt they'll put a line like that in the show because it would make him look bad.
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You are aware that he says that not because he actually wants to rape Cersei, but because he wants to appear like the monster people think he is, right?
 
T

TheXbox

Member
Brakke said:
Yes I agree. I'm saying he has more than enough evidence of all that without Tysha. His father boning Shae checks the same "family betrayal that goes one too far" box as "Jaime lied about Tysha" does.
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I don't think it does. Why should Tyrion go rogue and aid Targaryen scions when him and Jaime are still cool? Why would he even kill his dad? For boning Shae? It's uncharacteristic of Tyrion to act so violently with so little cause. At least with Tysha in the picture it makes sense. Tywin not only fucked Tyrion's honeydip, but he also stole his wife away from him and had dozens of dudes rape her in front of him. Then he made Tyrion himself rape her. Which is worse?

Again, Tysha herself is not what's important. It's the betrayal on the part of his father and brother that matters. Without that there is no logical motivation for him to murder his father, nor is there a reason for him to support claimants to the throne in active opposition to his family. We can debate whether or not Martin is too heavy-handed with "where do whores go" over and over and over, but without the betrayal none of what he does following his release from the dungeons makes any sense.
 
C

Cornballer

Member
- 'Game of Thrones' season 5 premiere date revealed
The launch date is not a surprise as Thrones always tends to return around the same time each year. But now it’s official: Thrones will unveil its fifth season on April 12.
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gE8DE7n.jpg
 
pulga

pulga

Banned
TheXbox said:
I don't think it does. Why should Tyrion go rogue and aid Targaryen scions when him and Jaime are still cool? Why would he even kill his dad? For boning Shae? It's uncharacteristic of Tyrion to act so violently with so little cause. At least with Tysha in the picture it makes sense. Tywin not only fucked Tyrion's honeydip, but he also stole his wife away from him and had dozens of dudes rape her in front of him. Then he made Tyrion himself rape her. Which is worse?

Again, Tysha herself is not what's important. It's the betrayal on the part of his father and brother that matters. Without that there is no logical motivation for him to murder his father, nor is there a reason for him to support claimants to the throne in active opposition to his family. We can debate whether or not Martin is too heavy-handed with "where do whores go" over and over and over, but without the betrayal none of what he does following his release from the dungeons makes any sense.
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Don't forget how Tywin went as far as to make Tyrion tip Tysha for her services. A good deal was lost in the translation :(
 
Moff

Moff

Member
TheXbox said:
without the betrayal none of what he does following his release from the dungeons makes any sense.
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I really don't agree at all, dinklage did an amazing job in the trial scene and showed how much he hated everyone at court, but especially his father, who treated him terribly his whole life. I can't imagine anyone who didnt read the books was confused why tyrion killed tywin. a opinion like that can only come from entitled book purists.
 
P

Paganmoon

Member
Emerson said:
That's a complete non-story. It's not currently on the publishing schedule, no shit. They'll put it on the schedule and release it as soon as possible when it's done. It stands to be an insanely huge release. Doesn't imply anything one way or the other about whether it makes it out in 2015.
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You'd think if they'd have a draft at the editors, they'd have a release date, which means, they don't even have a draft. Or are we imagining the book will be released straight from GRRM's printer, without an editor giving it a few passes?

I think hope for a 2015 release date is long gone. At best, 2016 release, before season premier.
 
J

Jigorath

Banned
Red Arremer said:
You are aware that he says that not because he actually wants to rape Cersei, but because he wants to appear like the monster people think he is, right?
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You are aware that's just your own interpretation right? He's clearly going mad with hatred. He's even entertained the possibility of getting Myrcella killed just to get back at his sister. It's not outside the realm of possibility that Tyrion would want to punish Cersei in the worst way possible.
 
eot

eot

Banned
Red Arremer said:
You are aware that he says that not because he actually wants to rape Cersei, but because he wants to appear like the monster people think he is, right?
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He says that when he's in exile, he's not surrounded by the people who hate him anymore. The way he treats prostitutes in ADWD I wouldn't be surprised if he actually meant those words.
 
B

Brakke

Banned
pulga said:
And not one show watcher will ever give a fuck because everyone thinks she's just a whore after Tyrion's money. As much as a tragedy as Tysha's true reality.
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I don't know who y'all are watching the show with but that scene was savage and most of my Unsullied peoples asked me about it after.
 
M

Marz

Member
The scene in the show where Tyrion asks his father for Casterly Rock pretty much set up the murder for anyone who hadn't read the books.

You have Tywin basically denying Tyrion his birthright while telling him he's responsible for his mothers death in the most cruel way possible, lets Joffrey embarrass Tyrion multiple times in front of the most important figures in the realm, then once Tyrion is accused Tywin pretty much condemns him to die even knowing Tyrion is innocent and sees the Wall as an excuse to finally rid himself of Tyrion.

To top it off he brings in his lover as a witness against him, more public humiliation, and then sleeps with her while Tyrion is rotting away in a cell.

I don't see why we need the stupid Tysha incident for motivation.
 
R

RobotChant

Member
PhoenixDark said:
His British editor, who doesn't even receive partials. Not really taking her word as gospel.
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Emerson said:
That's a complete non-story. It's not currently on the publishing schedule, no shit. They'll put it on the schedule and release it as soon as possible when it's done. It stands to be an insanely huge release. Doesn't imply anything one way or the other about whether it makes it out in 2015.
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Book isn't coming 2015.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
PhoenixDark said:
His British editor, who doesn't even receive partials. Not really taking her word as gospel.
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And a marquee book like this could be added to the schedule pretty late. They'd make room.

Emerson said:
That's a complete non-story. It's not currently on the publishing schedule, no shit. They'll put it on the schedule and release it as soon as possible when it's done. It stands to be an insanely huge release. Doesn't imply anything one way or the other about whether it makes it out in 2015.
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Basically this. It's not evidence in either direction.

RobotChant said:
Book isn't coming 2015.
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Probably not. Though we haven't had any solid information on GRRM's progress since March 2013, so who the hell knows when it is coming.
 
R

RobotChant

Member
Basileus777 said:
And a marquee book like this could be added to the schedule pretty late. They'd make room.


Basically this. It's not evidence in either direction.


Probably not. Though we haven't had any solid information on GRRM's progress since March 2013, so who the hell knows when it is coming.
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One of his editors, possibly? If it's not positive news people want to brush it off and dismiss her as a nobody. This is the second time she's said something about no book in 2015.

Fuzzy said:
I don't believe so either. Only GRRM book I'll be able to pick up this year is A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms (D&E collection).
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I still believe they expanded the collection with artwork (making the collection more expensive) because it was understood that there would be no TWOW in 2015.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
RobotChant said:
One of his editors, possibly? If it's not positive news people want to brush it off and dismiss her as a nobody. This is the second time she's said something about no book in 2015.
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She's not a nobody, but that comment isn't telling us much. And GRRM apparently hasn't been sending chapters to his editors as frequently as he did with past books, he seems to be keeping them in the dark too. And we already know from past quotes that GRRM doesn't pay much attention to suggestions from his editors any more. But I no longer expect the book to come out this year.
 
R

Red Arremer

Member
eot said:
He says that when he's in exile, he's not surrounded by the people who hate him anymore. The way he treats prostitutes in ADWD I wouldn't be surprised if he actually meant those words.
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That incident in the brothel where Mormont catches him is his lowest point, I agree, but you can't deny he's trying to better himself after that point. That said, towards the people who know his identity and his crimes, he tries to play himself as absolute monster. He claims killing Joffrey for himself (which we know he hasn't done), he proudly calls himself a kinslayer (even though we know how troubling killing his father was and is, despite all the things Tywin did to him). That's why I don't think that he actually wants to rape Cersei. He just wants to appear as bad and monstrous as his reputation has people believe, and I think that's partly to make people take him and his drive for revenge seriously.

Jigorath said:
You are aware that's just your own interpretation right? He's clearly going mad with hatred. He's even entertained the possibility of getting Myrcella killed just to get back at his sister. It's not outside the realm of possibility that Tyrion would want to punish Cersei in the worst way possible.
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Fair enough.
 
Z

ZeroRay

Member
Had a dream that GRRM announced that he was nearly/completely done with Winds a few days ago. I think it went like me reading a reddit post linking to his blog. FML

Then again, my dreams have been known to be prophetic...
 
Moff

Moff

Member
ZeroRay said:
Had a dream that GRRM announced that he was nearly/completely done with Winds a few days ago. I think it went like me reading a reddit post linking to his blog. FML

Then again, my dreams have been known to be prophetic...
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did he announce it on his blog?
 
B

Bebpo

Banned
Kind of sad my book 6 coinciding with season 5 start in a giant marketing campaign for both prediction didn't come to pass :(
 
Z

ZeroRay

Member
Moff said:
did he announce it on his blog?
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Yes. He wrote about him making great progress within the last few months and stuff. :(

According to a this Brynden guy on reddit, GRRM hasn't sent any partials to his editors in a long ass time due to him constantly needing to completely rewrite already sent chapters in ADWD. At this point we don't know if it's a good or bad thing that he hasn't sent anything in. Perhaps another contracted deadline's coming up, and we'll have more deets.
 
B

Basileus777

Member
ZeroRay said:
Yes. He wrote about him making great progress within the last few months and stuff. :(

According to a this Brynden guy on reddit, GRRM hasn't sent any partials to his editors in a long ass time due to him constantly needing to completely rewrite already sent chapters in ADWD. At this point we don't know if it's a good or bad thing that he hasn't sent anything in. Perhaps another contracted deadline's coming up, and we'll have more deets.
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Well that's coming from Adam Whitehead, who generally knows what he is talking about when it comes to this, someone on reddit just copy and pasted his comments.
 
Z

ZeroRay

Member
Right, should have credited the original source.

Oh well, let's hope George's comments about less rewrites hold true. A 2016 release is still 2 years faster than ADWD.
 
P

PHOENIXZERO

Member
TWoW isn't coming, the only things written are those sample chapters to string people along who have been nagging him about speeding up and talking about him dying before the series is finish, GRRM is going to announce he's calling it quits to focus on the remainder of the TV show, football and boobies.

56VcJLQ.gif
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
I think a 2015 release is possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.

The editors have had nothing since 2013. GRRM probably wants to finish his book before sending it off. The publishers will probably rush to get it on the shelves, especially if it coincides with the beginning or end of an HBO season.
 
B

badcrumble

Member
Bebpo said:
Kind of sad my book 6 coinciding with season 5 start in a giant marketing campaign for both prediction didn't come to pass :(
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I think a Book 6 release immediately *after* Season 5 is more realistic - the hope would be to get show watchers *approximately* caught up with the books, or at least feel like they're caught up enough to jump into the books at book 6 (and then get really confused lol).
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
ZeroRay said:
Yes. He wrote about him making great progress within the last few months and stuff. :(

According to a this Brynden guy on reddit, GRRM hasn't sent any partials to his editors in a long ass time due to him constantly needing to completely rewrite already sent chapters in ADWD. At this point we don't know if it's a good or bad thing that he hasn't sent anything in. Perhaps another contracted deadline's coming up, and we'll have more deets.
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Actually Whitehead said Martin diligently sent ADWD material to his editors, he'd just ended up re-writing it later. The difference is that he hasn't sent his editors anything for TWOW in over a year. His US editor recently did a reddit AMA where she said Martin sent her 168 pages in early 2013 but that's it. She had read other stuff (material moved from ADWD) and receives progress reports, but that's it.

Martin is on record saying he has re-written far less material for TWOW than he did for AFFC and ADWD. Honestly that reddit post have me some confidence. Martin has been home writing since late August 2014 and will be home until late Febuary. That's about six months of time with no traveling (outside of the brief NY stop to promote WOIAF). I'm going to assume he made good progress given the fact that he makes good progress when he has time to write.

2015 is still no guarantee due to the rest of his schedule. If he's not finished by April it won't come out IMO. Simply because the schedule results in multiple cases of him having 1-2 months at home before leaving again.

Honestly I really think that he'd be finished this year if he cancelled all his appearances except for World Con in November. But he'd never do that.
 
L

Loke13

Member
rhfb said:
Everyone will look silly when TWoW is out before the 6th season of GoT.
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Tbh that's not really an accomplishment especially when the tv adaption of your own show is going to spoil the ending of your series that's you've been working on since the 90's.
 
E

Euron

Member
Loke13 said:
Agreed I don't think it's very likely I'm starting to think we'll get another situation where the book has to be split into two parts again.
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I'm hoping that's the case just so we can get something soon. Even if the first release is less than 500 pages, if it contains two battles, Cersei's trial by combat, Brienne possibly bringing Jaime to Stoneheart, and maybe more, it would already be IMO more satisfying than the last two books.

My absolute best case scenario at the moment, which is itself wishful thinking, is SOMETHING releasing November 2015. If GRRM wants to release the full book only, then my guess is April 2016 right before Season 6 and that itself may also be wishful thinking at his pace. But I think we've passed the point where it can be adapted. D&D will continue to use the "broad strokes" and make up everything else as they go along.
 
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