• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 Offseason Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
It didn't help Sopranos, though. Average ratings went down after the first break and never recovered.
If the idea is to give GRRM more time, it'd be even more pointless, as he'll struggle to release TWOW before the show is over.

No it's not to stall but to have more episodes to cover TWOW/ADOS, I know there is no way GRRM will release the books in time. Breaking bad split the last season and I'm pretty sure it's ratings on the second half were significantly better. It depends on the show. Also it let's HBO have the GoT train running for another year.
 
They must have an outline of where the last two seasons are going already, and Season 6 will be fully written in a few months, well before TWOW will be out. Release timing of the books probably doesn't even matter anymore, they will wrap up the story in their own way with the knowledge GRRM has told them about what story beats they need to hit and where certain things will end.
 
Fuck IGN and Polygon for spoiling me on the upcoming season. What the hell is the point of articles like that except for spoiling fans of the show? Book readers already know everything that happens and show watchers are just going to get spoiled. Fuck them.

Why are you here if you're not a book reader? Meh, I had Joffrey's death spoiled for me by some third rate entertainment site just before I got to it in the books.

Anyone who hasn't read is just better off avoiding news for the most part and especially comment sections/message boards without strict policies about spoilers.
 

Sickbean

Member
Fuck IGN and Polygon for spoiling me on the upcoming season. What the hell is the point of articles like that except for spoiling fans of the show? Book readers already know everything that happens and show watchers are just going to get spoiled. Fuck them.

Do you also touch things that say 'caution, hot' and then complain when you burn your hand?
 

Moff

Member
Let's ignore how they completely butchered Tyrion's last scene with Tywin, and how it devolved into two lines being repeated over and over again.

you say that as if it was a bad thing.
we have a new chance at a well written, enjoyable tyrion in essos.
 

M.Bluth

Member
you say that as if it was a bad thing.
we have a new chance at a well written, enjoyable tyrion in essos.

With motivations that make no sense?
Show Tyrion has no reason to join Dany's forces whatsoever.

And the whole "I'm your son" "you're my son!" instead of what was in the books... disgusting.
 

Ratrat

Member
you say that as if it was a bad thing.
we have a new chance at a well written, enjoyable tyrion in essos.
Like what? He's not likely to do much with everything cut. Maybe he'll get to exchange a few words with Dany before she flies off.
 

Loke13

Member
With motivations that make no sense?
Show Tyrion has no reason to join Dany's forces whatsoever.

And the whole "I'm your son" "you're my son!" instead of what was in the books... disgusting.
So? Book Tyrion had no motivation to join Dany at the end of Book 3 this is basically the same situation how bout we actually wait for the season to air before jumping to conclusions.

I'm not sure what your problem with Tyrion's final scene is other then them omitting the "shit's gold" line it went pretty similarly to the book material and it certainly didn't "butcher" anything.
 

Turin

Banned
I recall I bitched hard about the rape scene and how silly Bloodraven looked. Other than that and a few minor things I'm enjoying the hell out of it.

This isn't a Hobbit situation. It's a pretty good tribute to the books in which it could never match.
 

Moff

Member
With motivations that make no sense?
Show Tyrion has no reason to join Dany's forces whatsoever.
I'm not sure what you mean. tysha was his reason to go to essos, but not to Dany.

Like what? He's not likely to do much with everything cut. Maybe he'll get to exchange a few words with Dany before she flies off.

sounds already much better than what I had to endure in ADWD.
 

Ratrat

Member
sounds already much better than what I had to endure in ADWD.
Sure. The same material would not work at all in the show. And I don't have faith in the writers to replace it with anything good. I'm fine if they just axe the whole thing.
 

Faddy

Banned
I'm not sure what you mean. tysha was his reason to go to essos, but not to Dany.



sounds already much better than what I had to endure in ADWD.


After the Tysha reveal Tyrion swears revenge on is full family telling Jaime he will meet him on the battlefield. He is driven to overthrow the crown and his whole family. He doesn't have this anymore since he left Jaime on good terms and he has always been found of Tommen and Myrcella on the show. He sends Myrcella to Dorne to keep her safe from the war as well as to build alliances.

I think differing motivations leading to the same act is something that many book purists can't grasp. There is also a focus on the main characters motivation wihout looking at the whole picture. The reason Shae was in Tywin's bed may not be the same, in fact it probably isn't. She is getting her revenge on Tyrion because he hurt her by having Bronn send her away. She has also been exposed due to her participation in the trial, Tywin may have her killed unless she does things for him.

She isn't just an unloving whore, Tyrion wronged her first.
 

sinxtanx

Member
I'm not sure what your problem with Tyrion's final scene is other then them omitting the "shit's gold" line it went pretty similarly to the book material and it certainly didn't "butcher" anything.

Tyrion's main motivation to kill his father in the book is that Jamie reveals during the escape that Tyrion's first wife was never a prostitute at all and Tywin basically forced Jamie to lie to Tyrion about it his whole life. That wasn't in the show and felt really weird to me.
 

M.Bluth

Member
So? Book Tyrion had no motivation to join Dany at the end of Book 3 this is basically the same situation how bout we actually wait for the season to air before jumping to conclusions.

I'm not sure what your problem with Tyrion's final scene is other then them omitting the "shit's gold" line it went pretty similarly to the book material and it certainly didn't "butcher" anything.

Um, at the end of Storm, Tyrion is filled with hate and a desire for revenge upon his house, that's pretty much why it makes sense for him to finally decide on joining Dany. But in the show, he's still best buddies with Jaime and probably wouldn't want to see him get hurt, so why would he ever join Dany?

As for what's wrong with the final scene, I'd just recommend re-reading the scene in the book and comparing it to the show.

I'm not sure what you mean. tysha was his reason to go to essos, but not to Dany.
Huh? Tysha was inexplicably cut at the end of S4, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
 
So? Book Tyrion had no motivation to join Dany at the end of Book 3 this is basically the same situation how bout we actually wait for the season to air before jumping to conclusions.

I'm not sure what your problem with Tyrion's final scene is other then them omitting the "shit's gold" line it went pretty similarly to the book material and it certainly didn't "butcher" anything.
Like others have said, the show completely cut Tyrion's main motive for killing his father, and cut he and Jaime parting on bad terms, and cut his revealing of Cersei's rampant unfaithfulness to Jaime, which also effects Jaime's attitude and actions toward Cersei going forward. Why cut that stuff? They're only going to have to make up a bunch of stuff to fix it. It's not like they didn't have the time.
 

Moff

Member
Um, at the end of Storm, Tyrion is filled with hate and a desire for revenge upon his house, that's pretty much why it makes sense for him to finally decide on joining Dany. But in the show, he's still best buddies with Jaime and probably wouldn't want to see him get hurt, so why would he ever join Dany?

As for what's wrong with the final scene, I'd just recommend re-reading the scene in the book and comparing it to the show.

Huh? Tysha was inexplicably cut at the end of S4, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
I meant tysha was not his reason to join dany, only to go to essos. but you already answere that right here.

I think cersei at the head of a kingdom trying to find and kill him is still more than enough reason for him to join in against her. although I do agree that the jaime part is different, and motivates him LESS to join dany. but you said he had no motivation at all, and that's not true. I am sure illyrio will convince him easily enough to destroy cersei. the best thing about it: it will all happen witthout tedious and prolonged borderline torture boring thoughts about tysha.
 

WaffleTaco

Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
I feel like the show when it messes something up, it messes it up bad. I don't mind filler like Asha's scene and Jon Snow's adventure last season. However, when they messed up the Jamie/Cersei sex scene and the scene at the end of S4 in the white tower, it kind of makes me mad. I also think Jamie and Tyrion leaving on good terms was not a good idea either. They had plenty of moments last season to re-bring up Tysha, most or the episodes are 51-55 minuets. They could have added a few mineuts onto a couple of of them and re-explained who she is. Sure people would be wondering why she's important until the S4 finale, but the payoff would be really good.
 

Moff

Member
I feel like the show when it messes something up, it messes it up bad. I don't mind filler like Asha's scene and Jon Snow's adventure last season. However, when they messed up the Jamie/Cersei sex scene and the scene at the end of S4 in the white tower, it kind of makes me mad. I also think Jamie and Tyrion leaving on good terms was not a good idea either. They had plenty of moments last season to re-bring up Tysha, most or the episodes are 51-55 minuets. They could have added a few mineuts onto a couple of of them and re-explained who she is. Sure people would be wondering why she's important until the S4 finale, but the payoff would be really good.

payoff? what payoff? tyrion thinking about her all the time in essos and ruining his own character for good?
tysha was not cut because they didnt have the time, tysha was never meant to be in, and everyone who read ADWD knows why.
 

WaffleTaco

Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
payoff? what payoff? tyrion thinking about her all the time in essos and ruining his own character for good?
tysha was not cut because they didnt have the time, tysha was never meant to be in, and everyone who read ADWD knows why.
Payoff with his interaction with Jamie, as well as being a darker Tyrion who wants to kill his family. If he remains pretty much the same as a character after all that, than the show runners have not done a good job. In the books he has definitely changed and not for the better.
 

Ogimachi

Member
No it's not to stall but to have more episodes to cover TWOW/ADOS, I know there is no way GRRM will release the books in time. Breaking bad split the last season and I'm pretty sure it's ratings on the second half were significantly better. It depends on the show. Also it let's HBO have the GoT train running for another year.
I see. TWOW and ADOS will probably be filled with battles, though, and that usually gets cut, so who knows.

They must have an outline of where the last two seasons are going already, and Season 6 will be fully written in a few months, well before TWOW will be out. Release timing of the books probably doesn't even matter anymore, they will wrap up the story in their own way with the knowledge GRRM has told them about what story beats they need to hit and where certain things will end.
Yes, he had to have the book released by March/April 2015 so they could adapt it in season 6. That chance is gone now.

I feel like the show when it messes something up, it messes it up bad. I don't mind filler like Asha's scene and Jon Snow's adventure last season. However, when they messed up the Jamie/Cersei sex scene and the scene at the end of S4 in the white tower, it kind of makes me mad. I also think Jamie and Tyrion leaving on good terms was not a good idea either. They had plenty of moments last season to re-bring up Tysha, most or the episodes are 51-55 minuets. They could have added a few mineuts onto a couple of of them and re-explained who she is. Sure people would be wondering why she's important until the S4 finale, but the payoff would be really good.
I agree, changing some of that character development is a much bigger problem, but then again Asha's hilariously terrible scene didn't mean anything to us because we knew nothing was going to happen. It must've been much more frustrating to the unsullied.

The whole shae arc was just bad. Tyrion was supposed to love her in the show, but I don't think anyone was ever convinced. Also, he kills her in self defence and then calling her a whore sets him off when he kills Tywin? Oh, please, that was cringeworthy.
 
Payoff with his interaction with Jamie, as well as being a darker Tyrion who wants to kill his family. If he remains pretty much the same as a character after all that, than the show runners have not done a good job. In the books he has definitely changed and not for the better.
Yup. I think the thing that broke Tyrion wasn't just the revelation that Tysha was not just a whore after all, but that Jaime, the one person in his family whom he liked, and whom didn't wish him dead, was complicit in the lie all along. It was pretty devastating in the book, and prompted his own revealations about Cersei, which have a pretty big knock on effect on Jaime's actions later. The show threw all that away for no reason really. There was plenty of time for that exchange to take place.

In the show it was more like, 'Right I'm off to escape now. Might as well pop upstairs and kill dad before I go because he's a bit of a cunt'.
 

Brazil

Living in the shadow of Amaz
Yup. I think the thing that broke Tyrion wasn't just the revelation that Tysha was not just a whore after all, but that Jaime, the one person in his family whom he liked, and whom didn't wish him dead, was complicit in the lie all along. It was pretty devastating in the book, and prompted his own revealations about Cersei, which have a pretty big knock on effect on Jaime's actions later. The show threw all that away for no reason really. There was plenty of time for that exchange to take place.

In the show it was more like, 'Right I'm off to escape now. Might as well pop upstairs and kill dad before I go because he's a bit of a cunt'.

The showmakers are too attached to the Tyrion x Jaime bromance.
 

Turin

Banned
Tyrion had enough reasons to want to kill his dad in the show. While I agree that bringing back the Tysha element would have been better, at least I still give a shit about show-Tyrion. Fuck book-Tyrion.
 

pulga

Banned
D&D absolutely fucked up by not bringing up Tysha. Probably the biggest fuck up they've done to date.

Not only are all the aforementioned reasons of why they should have done it important, the only reason Tyrion hooked up with Jorah is because he was obsessing over "where do whores go?" and decided to visit a brothel.

Basically, they stripped two characters of their main motivations going forward from ASOS. So, what are they going to make up next in order for Jaime not to give a fuck about Cersei? Hell, how is Cersei's trail even going to work? The only person I recall her fucking on the show is Lancel.
 

Snuggles

erotic butter maelstrom
I liked how the Tysha experience fucked up Tyrion, and the whole time he was with Shae deep down inside he kept telling himself it was all bullshit and he was a fool for falling for another whore. I love the show, but Tyrion's scenes with Shae were pretty cringe worthy and basically just straight up romance junk. It also made her turning on him / banging his pappy much less of a random thing.
 
D&D absolutely fucked up by not bringing up Tysha. Probably the biggest fuck up they've done to date.

Not only are all the aforementioned reasons of why they should have done it important, the only reason Tyrion hooked up with Jorah is because he was obsessing over "where do whores go?" and decided to visit a brothel.

Basically, they stripped two characters of their main motivations going forward from ASOS. So, what are they going to make up next in order for Jaime not to give a fuck about Cersei? Hell, how is Cersei's trail even going to work? The only person I recall her fucking on the show is Lancel.

The show isn't the book...

The show will give the characters their own motivations. Whether those motivations make for good TV is another matter.

Maybe Tyrion is almost assassinated in the first ep of S5, Jaime walks in on Cersei banging someone else, etc.
 

pulga

Banned
The show isn't the book...

The show will give the characters their own motivations. Whether those motivations make for good TV is another matter.

Maybe Tyrion is almost assassinated in the first ep of S5, Jaime walks in on Cersei banging someone else, etc.

Agreed, but why fix something that isn't broken? They had Jaime and Tyrion at the foot of the stairs, it would've taken them 10 extra seconds to do this shit properly.

And I don't see how Tyrion being almost assassinated is even comparable to the Tysha bombshell.
 
Agreed, but why fix something that isn't broken? They had Jaime and Tyrion at the foot of the stairs, it would've taken them 10 extra seconds to do this shit properly.

And I don't see how Tyrion being almost assassinated is even comparable to the Tysha bombshell.

Agreed, but clearly they felt differently. Most of their changes make for bad TV, I'm not defending that, I'm just saying you can't demand or expect the show to equal the book.

Maybe someone tries to kill Tyrion and fails. He finds out the assassination decree was signed by Cersei and the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard (Jaime). Whereas in realty Jaime refused to sign it and Cersei sent him to Dorne as retribution, then forged his signature.
 
Yup. I think the thing that broke Tyrion wasn't just the revelation that Tysha was not just a whore after all, but that Jaime, the one person in his family whom he liked, and whom didn't wish him dead, was complicit in the lie all along. It was pretty devastating in the book, and prompted his own revealations about Cersei, which have a pretty big knock on effect on Jaime's actions later. The show threw all that away for no reason really. There was plenty of time for that exchange to take place.

In the show it was more like, 'Right I'm off to escape now. Might as well pop upstairs and kill dad before I go because he's a bit of a cunt'.

I think it was 'better go kill Dad because he's been trying to kill me since I was born'

He was ready for the wall until once again, Tywin tries to shame him with the woman he loved. I think they got their motivation for killing Tywin perfectly fine. It's changing the relationship with Jamie that I don't care for. I always read too much into these things but when the show does stuff like this, I really just assume D&D found out that Jamie and Tyrion never meet each other again so they's rather not part the characters so bitterly. For the show, they whould rather have an amount of joy or respect between them...maybe because they think it's a bit more palatable for general audiences in a show that can be a downer. who knows
 

pulga

Banned
Agreed, but clearly they felt differently. Most of their changes make for bad TV, I'm not defending that, I'm just saying you can't demand or expect the show to equal the book.

Maybe someone tries to kill Tyrion and fails. He finds out the assassination decree was signed by Cersei and the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard (Jaime). Whereas in realty Jaime refused to sign it and Cersei sent him to Dorne as retribution, then forged his signature.

That'd be horrible :lol and unnecessarily complicated considering the alternative they had, but I see where you're coming from with it!

Plus, I'm pretty sure the Lord Commander doesn't have a say in who gets assasinated :p
 

Dysun

Member
I feel like a lot of you guys are overrating the books greatly.

It gets old to see people downplay the books in this thread over and over again. The show's best moments are lifted page for page out of the book that people "overrate" or "Bore me to death like ADWD"
 
In terms of Jaime's feeling towards Cersei, her inevitable manhunt for a brother who didn't claim ownership over the murder of his son, mock the unfaithfulness of the woman he loved, and pretty much threatened to put his head on a pike is sufficient enough to sour him on her, I think.
 
Smell like Oberyn's splattered brain

Gydja_For_Men_3.jpg
 

Brakke

Banned
The showmakers are too attached to the Tyrion x Jaime bromance.

Nah they're the right amount of attached because it's great. Those dudes had good chemistry on screen.

D&D absolutely fucked up by not bringing up Tysha. Probably the biggest fuck up they've done to date.

Not only are all the aforementioned reasons of why they should have done it important, the only reason Tyrion hooked up with Jorah is because he was obsessing over "where do whores go?" and decided to visit a brothel.

Basically, they stripped two characters of their main motivations going forward from ASOS. So, what are they going to make up next in order for Jaime not to give a fuck about Cersei? Hell, how is Cersei's trail even going to work? The only person I recall her fucking on the show is Lancel.

lmao thinking there's anything good or necessary about "where do whores go".

It gets old to see people downplay the books in this thread over and over again. The show's best moments are lifted page for page out of the book that people "overrate" or "Bore me to death like ADWD"

"there are good parts of the books that make for good tv" is a different claim than "the books get mired in a ton of boring stupid bullshit". Of course there's lots of good stuff in the books. I read all those things and liked them and they made me excited for the show. But there's no question there's a lot of garbage in the books that stands to be excised.
 
"there are good parts of the books that make for good tv" is a different claim than "the books get mired in a ton of boring stupid bullshit". Of course there's lots of good stuff in the books. I read all those things and liked them and they made me excited for the show. But there's no question there's a lot of garbage in the books that stands to be excised.
That's true, but there's also a lot of garbage in the show that wasn't in the books. It would be good if instead of padding out their limited running time with extended brothel scenes and shit they just made up, they just paid more attention to the good book material they're not throwing out.
 

Snuggles

erotic butter maelstrom
That's true, but there's also a lot of garbage in the show that wasn't in the books. It would be good if instead of padding out their limited running time with extended brothel scenes and shit they just made up, they just paid more attention to the good book material they're not throwing out.

As a fan of the source material I don't disagree, but we're just a small portion of the audience HBO is catering to.
 

Euron

Member
Given how much my favorite chapter of the series (the last Tyrion chapter in ASOS) was butchered, I'm terrified of what D&D are going to do to the Northern Arc going forward. Much of ADWD was a drag but the Northern Chapters, particularly Davos and Theon, redeemed the book for me and provided some of the best moments in the series. It still confuses me how Wyman Manderly of all characters, the biggest (lol) source of hope in the series in a long time with one of its greatest speeches might be cut entirely.

Though at this point, nothing they do will keep me from watching it. The show is pretty much the only way we'll actually see an ending for the series. It would take a miracle for TWOW to release this year. Then how long would it take to get ADOS out? Hell, GRRM will probably want another book on top of it knowing him. This could all take over a decade, time that just isn't available anymore.
 

Loke13

Member
That's like, his one motivation in Essos for half the book. You don't think character development is necessary?
Why is everyone acting as if that's the only reason why Tyrion has to go to Essos in the show? As if the murder of the King and his Hand isn't a good enough reason to get the hell out of dodge. Hiding out from your vengeance ridden sister who just happens to be the Queen in another country seems like a good idea.
 

Brakke

Banned
That's like, his one motivation in Essos for half the book. You don't think character development is necessary?

I don't know how you think that second sentence follows from the first. Of course I want character development; "where do whores go" is poor motivation. Changing Tyrion's time in Essos to be anything but the random wandering and feeling surly from the books will almost certainly be an improvement.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Nah they're the right amount of attached because it's great. Those dudes had good chemistry on screen.
And that is why it's such great drama when Tyrion rejects him and they get separated. It was heartbreaking and sad and powerful, and started Tyrion down his dark path even deeper.

The show stripped all of that "because bromance" and because they're too cowardly to make Tyrion an anti-hero. It's pathetic. And they do this like that constantly because they don't get what makes good drama. It's a very superficial adaptation.
 
Given how much my favorite chapter of the series (the last Tyrion chapter in ASOS) was butchered, I'm terrified of what D&D are going to do to the Northern Arc going forward. Much of ADWD was a drag but the Northern Chapters, particularly Davos and Theon, redeemed the book for me and provided some of the best moments in the series. It still confuses me how Wyman Manderly of all characters, the biggest (lol) source of hope in the series in a long time with one of its greatest speeches might be cut entirely.

Though at this point, nothing they do will keep me from watching it. The show is pretty much the only way we'll actually see an ending for the series. It would take a miracle for TWOW to release this year. Then how long would it take to get ADOS out? Hell, GRRM will probably want another book on top of it knowing him. This could all take over a decade, time that just isn't available anymore.

It's possible. I used to be firmly on the 2015 bandwagon, then Martin's schedule filled up...bah. Basically he'd have to be done by April for it to happen, because after that he doesn't have much free time.
 

Loke13

Member
And that is why it's such great drama when Tyrion rejects him and they get separated. It was heartbreaking and sad and powerful, and started Tyrion down his dark path even deeper.

The show stripped all of that "because bromance" and because they're too cowardly to make Tyrion an anti-hero. It's pathetic. And they do this like that constantly because they don't get what makes good drama. It's a very superficial adaptation.
Oh please I always rolled my eyes at the development it was another case of George injecting drama into the plot when there didn't really need it be. Does it make for good drama? Yes. Is it a unnecessary development put into the books for the sake of pitting Tyrion against Jaime? Absolutely.

The years of abuse by his father, the alcoholism, his need for acceptance, all coupled with the public vindication of his court scenes and add that to finding out Tywin took another love of his wife away while proving himself a hypocrite by bedding a whore is enough to send any sane person done a spiral of depression.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom