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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 Offseason Thread

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Sansa going north got its start based on some crazy analysis some dude did comparing the door in the background of the trailer shot where Sansa is in the sty to the doors in Winterfell in seasons 1 and 2 versus the doors we've seen in the Vale. It was kind of ridiculous. But then Alfie Allen gave an interview where he said that his plot involved characters who have never met or who have only shared brief screentime together meeting and interacting, and that there is a very strong relationship between Theon and another character he meets this way. So people immediately jumped to Sansa as the leading candidate for who that relationship would be.

I'm not even sure what the latest of Michele Fairley is at this point, I just sort of tune it all out. Last I heard, her agent gave a pretty strong denial that she was in the show, but then someone asked her instead and she gave a coy "who knoooooows you'll have to watch and see!" instead.

Thanks for the clarification. That's pretty wild about that Sansa analysis. Some people have too much time on their hands tbh.

Plus I think some of the LSH speculation comes from the fact we no absolutely nothing about Brienne and Pod in the upcoming season.

I agree, but I'm not getting my hopes up. I think they'll keep it along the same lines as the book though, they don't really need to make any major changes despite the change in Jaime's arc.
 
^^ Immediately after I put down the book I started reading through these threads and seeing what people had to say. I'm interested in Jon's fate in particular.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
^^ Immediately after I put down the book I started reading through these threads and seeing what people had to say. I'm interested in Jon's fate in particular.

Ha, well I'll just quote myself from a few pages back for someone else who just got caught up.

One of us, one of us. Read up on all those theories now so you're brain can turn into mush as you suddenly realize how much you missed just plainly reading them the first time through. Also, you should read the prequel stories like the Dunk and Egg novellas as well as "The Rogue Prince" and "The Princess and the Queen."

Also, those fan theories posted are far from the best and actually more like the craziest.

Here is a collection of the theories you want to read:
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79775-a-compendium-of-theories/
Of particular note:
-Three Eyed Crow= Bloodraven/Brynden Rivers (pretty much confirmed)
-Blackfyre Conspiracy
-Frey Pies
-Clegane Bowl
-Jojen Paste
-Alleras=Sarella

Also, Things you may have missed the first time through:
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2mfi6w/spoilers_all_significant_things_you_just/
 
Frey pies is one of those ones pretty much everyone believes. I don't think I've ever met a Frey pie skeptic.
It seems so perfect. Some of the details went over my head while reading but I do remember turning over the rat cook quote from manderly in my head when he said it at the winterfell feast.
 

foxtrot3d

Banned
It seems so perfect. Some of the details went over my head while reading but I do remember turning over the rat cook quote from manderly in my head when he said it at the winterfell feast.

You'll find that a lot of things probably went over your head reading the books the first time through, the books are just so dense and intricately layered that it's impossible to make all the connections the first time through. For example, remember when Jaqen H'gar somehow magically killed one of Arya's targets in Harrenhal by having the target's dog kill him. Everyone found it strange that the dog became violent towards the man since he raised it from a pup and even Arya mentions that it must have been some dark magic that Jaqen used to do that. Well, remember two or so books later when Arya is being instructed on poisons in the House of Black and White? One of the poisons the waif explains to Arya is Basilisk Blood which she states will produce a violent madness in its victims, including animals, a mouse will attack a lion I believe is the example she uses. Arya then asks if it would work on a dog, the waif replies any animal. Thus, Jaqen used the poison on the dog to kill the man.

Sticking with the Faceless Men, remember when Arya is sailing to Braavos and she mentions how all the crew would present her with gifts and repeat their name, particularly stressing that she knew their name? Okay, well later on when Arya is serving for the Faceless Men when they hold a meeting they begin to discuss targets with one another with one stating, "I know this man, I cannot give him the gift." While another states, "I do not know this man, I will give him the gift." Thus, the implication seems to be that Faceless Men cannot kill people that they know and the reason the sailors gave Arya those gifts and made her learn their names was so that she couldnt kill them later if offered a contract against them.
 
You'll find that a lot of things probably went over your head reading the books the first time through, the books are just so dense and intricately layered that it's impossible to make all the connections the first time through. For example, remember when Jaqen H'gar somehow magically killed one of Arya's targets in Harrenhal by having the target's dog kill him. Everyone found it strange that the dog became violent towards the man since he raised it from a pup and even Arya mentions that it must have been some dark magic that Jaqen used to do that. Well, remember two or so books later when Arya is being instructed on poisons in the House of Black and White? One of the poisons the waif explains to Arya is Basilisk Blood which she states will produce a violent madness in its victims, including animals, a mouse will attack a lion I believe is the example she uses. Arya then asks if it would work on a dog, the waif replies any animal. Thus, Jaqen used the poison on the dog to kill the man.

Sticking with the Faceless Men, remember when Arya is sailing to Braavos and she mentions how all the crew would present her with gifts and repeat their name, particularly stressing that she knew their name? Okay, well later on when Arya is serving for the Faceless Men when they hold a meeting they begin to discuss targets with one another with one stating, "I know this man, I cannot give him the gift." While another states, "I do not know this man, I will give him the gift." Thus, the implication seems to be that Faceless Men cannot kill people that they know and the reason the sailors gave Arya those gifts and made her learn their names was so that she could kill them later if offered a contract against them.

Yeah the world building in these books are top notch, its details like these that make everything so rich.
 

WaffleTaco

Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
You'll find that a lot of things probably went over your head reading the books the first time through, the books are just so dense and intricately layered that it's impossible to make all the connections the first time through. For example, remember when Jaqen H'gar somehow magically killed one of Arya's targets in Harrenhal by having the target's dog kill him. Everyone found it strange that the dog became violent towards the man since he raised it from a pup and even Arya mentions that it must have been some dark magic that Jaqen used to do that. Well, remember two or so books later when Arya is being instructed on poisons in the House of Black and White? One of the poisons the waif explains to Arya is Basilisk Blood which she states will produce a violent madness in its victims, including animals, a mouse will attack a lion I believe is the example she uses. Arya then asks if it would work on a dog, the waif replies any animal. Thus, Jaqen used the poison on the dog to kill the man.

Sticking with the Faceless Men, remember when Arya is sailing to Braavos and she mentions how all the crew would present her with gifts and repeat their name, particularly stressing that she knew their name? Okay, well later on when Arya is serving for the Faceless Men when they hold a meeting they begin to discuss targets with one another with one stating, "I know this man, I cannot give him the gift." While another states, "I do not know this man, I will give him the gift." Thus, the implication seems to be that Faceless Men cannot kill people that they know and the reason the sailors gave Arya those gifts and made her learn their names was so that she couldnt kill them later if offered a contract against them.

I have read them twice...and did not notice this. Holy Shit.
 

Patriots7

Member
I was thinking about my favorite passage in the series, and it brought me back to a Tower of Joy question that's been nagging me for a while.

Why did Ned and the remaining Kingsguard fight outside the Tower of Joy? Under the assumption that R + L = J, they kept their vow to Rhaegar that they would protect his unborn child. They felt this duty was paramount to 1) Protecting Rhaegar at the Trident 2) Protecting the actual King they are sworn to protect 3) Protecting arguably the next in line, Viserys. So with them knowing that the Targ dynasty is essentially over, why would they not seek the help of the most honorable man in the realm, and figure out a way to protect Lyanna and Jon?
The only argument I can understand is that they feared that he was Robert's best friend and after the death of Rhaenys and baby fAegon, didn't want to take a chance. But kinslaying is the biggest affront in Westeros, and technically (assuming he was legitimate), Jon would have been King at the time, so it would have been kingslaying as well. So Ned, who I assume by choice only brought his closest friends/bannermen to the Tower of Joy likely expecting that something along these lines, should have been the one man that the Kingsguard would have wanted to see.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
I was thinking about my favorite passage in the series, and it brought me back to a Tower of Joy question that's been nagging me for a while.

Why did Ned and the remaining Kingsguard fight outside the Tower of Joy? Under the assumption that R + L = J, they kept their vow to Rhaegar that they would protect his unborn child. They felt this duty was paramount to 1) Protecting Rhaegar at the Trident 2) Protecting the actual King they are sworn to protect 3) Protecting arguably the next in line, Viserys. So with them knowing that the Targ dynasty is essentially over, why would they not seek the help of the most honorable man in the realm, and figure out a way to protect Lyanna and Jon?
The only argument I can understand is that they feared that he was Robert's best friend and after the death of Rhaenys and baby fAegon, didn't want to take a chance. But kinslaying is the biggest affront in Westeros, and technically (assuming he was legitimate), Jon would have been King at the time, so it would have been kingslaying as well. So Ned, who I assume by choice only brought his closest friends/bannermen to the Tower of Joy likely expecting that something along these lines, should have been the one man that the Kingsguard would have wanted to see.

I doubt Ned really had his reputation for honor at the time. They probably didn't know anything about him other than that he was a traitor.
 

NeoGiff

Member
Ok, about Stoneheart (seriously this time):

There's absolutely no evidence or hints we can go by to assume she's in. Of course, this doesn't mean she's 100% been cut, but... it's not looking good.

Also, what people are clinging to is Fairley being cryptic in a recent interview. The thing is, she only gave the same answer she's been giving since the end of Season 3. Yes, her agent denied the Stoneheart stuff, but of course an agent is going to do that. And in her own case, she's not going to do a Kristan Nairn and outright confirm whether her character has been cut or not. It's ridiculous to expect that in an interview she'd just say "Oh yes, Catelyn is resurrected this season as Lady Stoneheart! I can't wait to see everyone's reaction to the scene I've just spoiled." On the other hand, it's not really her place to disclose if a plot element like that has been cut. Either confirming or denying Stoneheart's presence in the show would be flippant and unprofessional. Hence the cryptic answers. Hence the reason everyone should calm down and expect the worst.
 

Forkball

Member
I'm removing your spoilers. C'mon man, we all know what you're talking about.

I was thinking about my favorite passage in the series, and it brought me back to a Tower of Joy question that's been nagging me for a while.

Why did Ned and the remaining Kingsguard fight outside the Tower of Joy? Under the assumption that R + L = J, they kept their vow to Rhaegar that they would protect his unborn child. They felt this duty was paramount to 1) Protecting Rhaegar at the Trident 2) Protecting the actual King they are sworn to protect 3) Protecting arguably the next in line, Viserys. So with them knowing that the Targ dynasty is essentially over, why would they not seek the help of the most honorable man in the realm, and figure out a way to protect Lyanna and Jon?
The only argument I can understand is that they feared that he was Robert's best friend and after the death of Rhaenys and baby fAegon, didn't want to take a chance. But kinslaying is the biggest affront in Westeros, and technically (assuming he was legitimate), Jon would have been King at the time, so it would have been kingslaying as well. So Ned, who I assume by choice only brought his closest friends/bannermen to the Tower of Joy likely expecting that something along these lines, should have been the one man that the Kingsguard would have wanted to see.

Well the Kingsguard did it because they were told to, it was their duty. It is part of their oaths to protect the royal family and follow their orders. They were ordered to protect Lyanna and Jon, so they did. When GoT starts Ned is heralded as an honest and just man, but he still did rebel against the king and thus were an enemy of the Kingsguard. Also Viserys wasn't even born yet actually.
 

SpaceHorror

Member
I'm removing your spoilers. C'mon man, we all know what you're talking about.



Well the Kingsguard did it because they were told to, it was their duty. It is part of their oaths to protect the royal family and follow their orders. They were ordered to protect Lyanna and Jon, so they did. When GoT starts Ned is heralded as an honest and just man, but he still did rebel against the king and thus were an enemy of the Kingsguard. Also Viserys wasn't even born yet actually.

Eh? Viserys was 6 years old when Robert's Rebellion started, he would have been about 7 by the time Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy. Daenerys was born after.

Agree with everything else, though. They were following their orders. As long as a son of Rhaegar Targaryen lived they were duty bound to protect him.
 
what would they have done if they killed ned and his men?

There's not much they could do other than try to flee overseas. Dorne is not going to welcome Lyanna's child. Their use in any sort of conspiracy is probably limited anyway due to their high profile, especially since Robert will really want them dead if they killed Ned.
 
Some leaked details from Facebook about the first episode of season 5:

Kings Landing:
"The episode starts with the Maggy the Frog scene. “Gold shall be their crowns, and gold their shrouds…” A brunette girl is pulling at a young blonde girls arm and urges her to leave. “Cersei, we have to go!” Then there's a cut to a scene between Cersei and Jaime over Tywin's corpse where she asks him if he is the one who freed Tyrion. He denies it but she knows him too well and knows he's lying. She leaves him there alone with Jaime feeling very guilty. Then there's another Cersei scene where she feels like a lion drowning in a pool of golden roses, watching Margaery comfort Tommen while Loras is offering her his condolences. She leaves the place without a look at Loras, walks into Pycelle but just leaves him standing there as well. She just wants to be alone for a moment, but then she walks into Lancel Lannister. She hardly recognizes him. Her uncle Kevan Lannister follows and apologizes for his son's ragged looks and informs her that he's joined the Sparrows. There’s another scene later where Lancel seeks her out and asks for her forgiveness for sleeping with her and tells her that he’s a changed man now."

Pentos:
"There's a scene with Tyrion, too, arriving in Pentos in the crate. He drinks 8 cups of wine in that scene then vomits on Illyrios expensive carpet. Varys tells him he and Illyrio have bet on the wrong Targaryen (Viserys) but Tyrion is not interested in the Game of Thrones anymore."


Meereen:
"In Meereen there's an Unsullied going to a brothel. But he's not there for sex, he just seeks human contact. The whore sings to him while he rests his head on her breast... then his throat is slit by a man masked with the face of the Harpy. Dany orders the Unsullied to patrol the streets. Daario and Hizdahr zo Loraq return to Meereen. Daario tells Dany the other Slave cities are just waiting for the slightest weakness she shows to attack. She needs to use her dragons, a dragon queen without dragons is no queen at all. Dany is afraid she can't control the dragons and doesn't want another child to die, but she seeks out the dragons in the pit nonetheless. Her babies however are not happy to see her. They've grown huge and angry and they attack Dany. All that keeps them from eating her are the chains. Dany flees the pit, scared, horrified, and realizes she's lost control of them completely."

Castle Black:
"At the Wall there's a scene between Jon and Stannis walking on top of the Wall with Melisandre and Davos following close behind. Stannis reminds Jon that the man who put a dagger into Robb’s heart is now ruling over Winterfell and asks if Jon doesn’t want to avenge his brother. Jon informs him that he wants a great many things but his loyalty belongs to the Watch. Stannis tells Jon that many love him (Jon), and some don’t, and then goes on that he doesn't want to kill the Wildlings, he needs men to fight Roose Bolton after all. He wants them to kneel to him. He wants their king Mance to kneel to him. He gives Jon till nightfall to convince Mance to kneel. Jon hurries off to Mance and tries to convince him."

It's from summer of last year but some of the details is stuff we now know to be true so it gives it some validity. But still take with a grain of salt.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
Some leaked details “

Pretty much a more detailed write up of the same leak we got last summer that was pretty much confirmed by the trailer, so I'm not sure if it's genuine or if it's just someone embellishing on the other leak. If it's legit, I think Varys' bit of dialogue about supporting the wrong Targ is interesting. That would suggest that their explanation for why he was willing to kill Dany in season 1 is just that Viserys was still the goal at the time, and Dany was expendable.

Also, if the Jon/Stannis dialogue is legit, I like that they have Stannis appeal directly to Jon's desire for revenge against Bolton. That does a good job of setting up Jon's struggle with finding ways to support Stannis without breaking his vows and how he keeps pushing the boundaries on that until they break, and makes it a bit easy for viewers to root for Stannis, now that he's at least giving lip service to the idea of revenge for the Starks.
 
Pretty much a more detailed write up of the same leak we got last summer that was pretty much confirmed by the trailer, so I'm not sure if it's genuine or if it's just someone embellishing on the other leak. If it's legit, I think Varys' bit of dialogue about supporting the wrong Targ is interesting. That would suggest that their explanation for why he was willing to kill Dany in season 1 is just that Viserys was still the goal at the time, and Dany was expendable.

Also, if the Jon/Stannis dialogue is legit, I like that they have Stannis appeal directly to Jon's desire for revenge against Bolton. That does a good job of setting up Jon's struggle with finding ways to support Stannis without breaking his vows and how he keeps pushing the boundaries on that until they break, and makes it a bit easy for viewers to root for Stannis, now that he's at least giving lip service to the idea of revenge for the Starks.
This leak was posted a month before that other one.
 

bengraven

Member
I've decided after taking a few months off of Ice and Fire (haven't even touched my World if Ice and Fire after the first week) that I'm going to just go into the show assuming everything is going to be edited and kept neat and clean. Things will be excised - I should just be happy things I enjoy will be in there.

It's a similar feeling I had going into Return of the King, where I realized they weren't going to show Duendain Rangers or Druedain, but just hoping to get a bit of a nod or trivia bit somewhere.

Pretty much a more detailed write up of the same leak we got last summer that was pretty much confirmed by the trailer, so I'm not sure if it's genuine or if it's just someone embellishing on the other leak. If it's legit, I think Varys' bit of dialogue about supporting the wrong Targ is interesting. That would suggest that their explanation for why he was willing to kill Dany in season 1 is just that Viserys was still the goal at the time, and Dany was expendable.

Also, if the Jon/Stannis dialogue is legit, I like that they have Stannis appeal directly to Jon's desire for revenge against Bolton. That does a good job of setting up Jon's struggle with finding ways to support Stannis without breaking his vows and how he keeps pushing the boundaries on that until they break, and makes it a bit easy for viewers to root for Stannis, now that he's at least giving lip service to the idea of revenge for the Starks.

Agreed all around.

One thing I love about the show is it's ability to cover so much book ground in even just one scene. BLANK sets up BLANK sets up BLANK with just a few lines where in the books it could take paragaphs or even chapters to have a character realize something or make a major change.

I like Stannis pushing Jon for possible revenge when, according to Stannis, Rob is dead because he threw a leech in the fire.

Yeah, it's a bit fucked up of him.

I never even thought of that when reading the books. If only Jon knew.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
I've decided after taking a few months off of Ice and Fire (haven't even touched my World if Ice and Fire after the first week) that I'm going to just go into the show assuming everything is going to be edited and kept neat and clean. Things will be excised - I should just be happy things I enjoy will be in there.

It's a similar feeling I had going into Return of the King, where I realized they weren't going to show Duendain Rangers or Druedain, but just hoping to get a bit of a nod or trivia bit somewhere.



Agreed all around.

One thing I love about the show is it's ability to cover so much book ground in even just one scene. BLANK sets up BLANK sets up BLANK with just a few lines where in the books it could take paragaphs or even chapters to have a character realize something or make a major change.



Yeah, it's a bit fucked up of him.

I never even thought of that when reading the books. If only Jon knew.

In book-Stannis' defense, he did seem to find the way Robb died to be pretty bad, even if he was glad Robb was dead. Show-Stannis... Is yeah, a little more hypocritical.
 

NeoGiff

Member
Hmm, all of that leaked information seems to be
pretty legit on the surface, with the exception of some Wall stuff. There's a certain big scene that's supposed to take place in the premiere, but it isn't mentioned here. Who knows though, it could have been shifted from episode 2 to episode 1 since this leak. Michael Slovis directed both, after all.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
Hmm, all of that leaked information seems to be
pretty legit on the surface, with the exception of some Wall stuff. There's a certain big scene that's supposed to take place in the premiere, but it isn't mentioned here. Who knows though, it could have been shifted from episode 2 to episode 1 since this leak. Michael Slovis directed both, after all.

It reads to me like only a partial summary, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's missing a scene or two.

Election in the premiere, then?
 

NeoGiff

Member
It reads to me like only a partial summary, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's missing a scene or two.

Election in the premiere, then?

That's a good point. It doesn't mention a lot of storylines.

I'm sorry but as much as I want to, I just can't say. There are a few bits and bobs we never reported on... I'll put it this way, there are only a few weeks to go until the premiere anyway, so if it doesn't actually happen in the episode I'll just say what it is.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
That's a good point. It doesn't mention a lot of storylines.

I'm sorry but as much as I want to, I just can't say. There are a few bits and bobs we never reported on... I'll put it this way, there are only a few weeks to go until the premiere anyway, so if it doesn't actually happen in the episode I'll just say what it is.

lol I know you can't say. I just like to speculate. Election or the Winterfell offer were all I could really think of that are premier material that happens at the Wall, unless they're just doing something completely random.
 

Snuggles

erotic butter maelstrom
What did Stannis want Robb dead again? Seems like Robb's cause was beneficial for his own, but I guess Stannis isn't the most pragmatic guy. Was it just for trying to declare independence?
 

-griffy-

Banned
What did Stannis want Robb dead again? Seems like Robb's cause was beneficial for his own, but I guess Stannis isn't the most pragmatic guy. Was it just for trying to declare independence?

He was a usurper because he declared himself King in the North. Doesn't matter if his cause benefited Stannis, it was still dishonorable to Stannis, who saw himself as the rightful heir to all seven kingdoms. In his mind Robb should have 100% supported Stannis, not declared himself king of lands that Stannis had rightful rule over.
 

NeoGiff

Member
lol I know you can't say. I just like to speculate. Election or the Winterfell offer were all I could really think of that are premier material that happens at the Wall, unless they're just doing something completely random.

Don't bring it up if you can't talk about it.

Pm me

kNSSM1u.gif
 
He was a usurper because he declared himself King in the North. Doesn't matter if his cause benefited Stannis, it was still dishonorable to Stannis, who saw himself as the rightful heir to all seven kingdoms. In his mind Robb should have 100% supported Stannis, not declared himself king of lands that Stannis had rightful rule over.

IT felt like that was the plan until he was declared 'king' by his bannermen, something he took very seriously. Yes, he should have honored Ned's stand on the issue and pushed to make Stannis King.
 

NeoGiff

Member
Honestly, does anyone here have any interest in the Catch the Throne mixtapes?

I was writing something up and found this hilarious quote from the Killswitch Engage singer on the band's contribution:

… while I was writing the song, I didn’t really know what I was talking about.
 

Iksenpets

Banned
Honestly, does anyone here have any interest in the Catch the Throne mixtapes?

I was writing something up and found this hilarious quote from the Killswitch Engage singer on the band's contribution:

Absolutely zero. They seem sad and awkward.

On a related note, it depresses me now whenever I pull up The Hold Steady on Spotify and their most popular song is now The Bear and the Maiden Fair.
 

NeoGiff

Member
Absolutely zero. They seem sad and awkward.

On a related note, it depresses me now whenever I pull up The Hold Steady on Spotify and their most popular song is now The Bear and the Maiden Fair.

My feelings exactly.

Oh man, I wish I was around here for the reaction to that! I absolutely hated it at the end of the episode. Imagine if they had done something similar for Oberyn's death. I can see it playing out now:

"ELIA MARTELL! I KILLED HER CHILDREN! AND I RAPED HER! THEN I SMASHED HER HEAD IN LIKE THIS!"

bfp2TJ9.gif


NqmU7g6.gif


Cut to black...

"THE DORNISHMAN'S WIFE WAS AS FAIR AS THE SUN,
AND HER KISSES WERE WARMER THAN SPRIIIIIING!"
 

Iksenpets

Banned
My feelings exactly.

Oh man, I wish I was around here for the reaction to that! I absolutely hated it at the end of the episode. Imagine if they had done something similar for Oberyn's death. I can see it playing out now:

"ELIA MARTELL! I KILLED HER CHILDREN! AND I RAPED HER! THEN I SMASHED HER HEAD IN LIKE THIS!"

bfp2TJ9.gif


NqmU7g6.gif


Cut to black...

"THE DORNISHMAN'S WIFE WAS AS FAIR AS THE SUN,
AND HER KISSES WERE WARMER THAN SPRIIIIIING!"

Oh man, when I first heard they were doing the song, I thought it seemed like a pretty funny gag. I like the band, and the song is a good fit for them. I didn't expect them to drop it at the end of a fucking episode, and especially not there of all places. For a show that seems, at least, to have worked to have a pretty even tone, choosing that moment to break it was just bizarre.
 
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