BobTheFork
Member
Everytime they said that, they burned the body so it's a bit different?
If Jon rises from the 'dead' Alister is going to tell him to get his steward ass back on the fookin' wall.
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 Offseason Thread
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Everytime they said that, they burned the body so it's a bit different?
If Jon rises from the 'dead' Alister is going to tell him to get his steward ass back on the fookin' wall.
hendersonhank
Member
A lot of you seem to forget Jon's established character. He is, down to his core, a man of the Night's Watch. He's a little more forward thinking than most of his brothers, but he is still 100% loyal to his cause.
If he wanted to break his oath completely (as in, more than just banging some redhead wildling), he has had multiple opportunities to do so. He's more focused on the protection of the realm than anything else.
Except that Jon 100% throws his oath away in deciding to abandon the Wall for personal (family) reasons, which is why the mutineers kill him in the first place.
Everytime they said that, they burned the body so it's a bit different?
I'm pretty sure it's a customary eulogy and didn't just start when magic/wights started coming back into the world.
god who cares about jon's oath
oaths are not, like, metaphysically binding
Right. Like, there's no Supreme Court of Vows to adjudicate if he's actually broken them or not. That's what makes it interesting. Did Jon break his vows? If he did, was Bowen justified in taking him out? I dunno, it's up for debate. Jon spends a lot of time rationalizing his vows to allow for his actions, but that doesn't necessarily make him right or wrong. Same as if he rises from the dead. If he decides that that releases him from his vows, that doesn't really mean anything. He's just made a choice, which neither the reader nor the other characters in the book have to respect. Jon could announce that he's released from his vows, and everyone else could disagree and stab him all over again, because there's no real authority here.
Chromium.Wings
Member
Except that Jon 100% throws his oath away in deciding to abandon the Wall for personal (family) reasons, which is why the mutineers kill him in the first place.
Well, I mean, the pink letter is Ramsay directly threatening to kill him, and implying he'll kill any other Night's Watchmen who stand in his way, and he wants to make him answer for what he's said.
He did say it was forswearing his vows, but I don't think he was completely abandoning the wall. His biggest stake is in the battle against the Others. After he were to kill Ramsay, why wouldn't he turn around and ride for the wall? I mean, he knows it's a breaking of his oath, but it's in defense of the Watch.
BobTheFork
Member
Except that Jon 100% throws his oath away in deciding to abandon the Wall for personal (family) reasons, which is why the mutineers kill him in the first place.
I'm pretty sure it's a customary eulogy and didn't just start when magic/wights started coming back into the world.
That's what I meant. No need to hold off on the dead Night's watch members coming back when you burn the body.... You know I never considered Jon's return being due to him becoming a wright. Of course, he wouldn't be like the others but picture a Walter White Walker turning him and he just pops up with a flaming sword and starts making blue eyed sno-cones.
Death is not a simple thing to overcome and obviously not every twat can come back to life. You make it sound like everyone would be eager to be killed in the hopes of a Red Priest happening by and choosing to resurrect them. If they really want to be free of their oaths, all they have to do is run off and be Wildlings.
Not being dead NOW in no way, shape, or form changes the fact that they did DIE.
Guess they should have said that, then. And they shouldn't say "and now his Watch is ended" when someone dies, as I guarantee you someone will say over Jon if they're going to go this route. They should say "and now his Watch is suspended while he's dead, to be resumed if he is resurrected".
I'm kinda done discussing this issue as I've made my points clear but I really do have to respond to your claim that "if they meant that they should have put it in the oath." You do understand that there are basic things in life that we assume and don't have to spell out? The Oath is a very short statement so one can memorize it not a twelve page legal contract. One assumes that a person cannot come back from death so one does not need to say:
"It shall not end until my death, but in the off chance that I am declared legally dead and return to life, my oath shall resume as it did before prior to my declaration of death. Death being defined in subsection (b) of this chapter as an unresponsive state in which an individual exhibits none of the usual signs of life (heart beat, eye movement, breathing, etc) for an extended period of time or lasting for more than ten minutes. A declaration of death signed by a sworn Maester of the Citadel will also suffice. I hereby understand that my assignment of order and position within the Night's Watch shall not accrue upon resurrection and said assignments and positions may change based upon the needs and requirements of the Night's Watch at the time of my resurrection..."
hendersonhank
Member
You are correct, there is no need for technicalities. If a Nights Watchman dies, his vow is ended with his death, exactly as the oath says. It doesn't resume if by some (literal) miracle he manages to come back to life.
Also, finding novel ways around binding agreements is a staple of fantasy, fairytales, etc. The Devil doesn't sputter "but that's not what I meant!" when he gets trumped, he sucks it up and goes home.
Also, finding novel ways around binding agreements is a staple of fantasy, fairytales, etc. The Devil doesn't sputter "but that's not what I meant!" when he gets trumped, he sucks it up and goes home.
god who cares about jon's oath
oaths are not, like, metaphysically binding
He did make it in front of a Weirwood, so I wouldn't be too surprised.
But yeah, it probably comes down more to what Zombie Jon wants to do. He's already decided the oath is flexible when it comes to fucking wildlings and leading armies against the lord of Winterfell, I doubt being stabbed to death is going to make him care about it much more.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Is it the case that the lord of light only allows resurrection of certain people who are important to his cause?
The thing is, Jon doesn't actually want to be free of his vows. People have already offered him legitimate ways out and he's not interested. Jon is quite blunt, really. If he wants to break or bend his vows, he'll just do it. He's already shown his willingness on that front.
I just can't see him looking for technicalities, or un-dying and going 'Hey, I died. I'm free now!' while everyone else looks at their feet and reluctantly accepts it, and I certainly can't see people choosing to (almost)die to free them from their vows because it worked for him.
The only way the 'until my death' clause matters and someone starts clinging to the letter of the law rather than the spirit of it is if the Nights Watch are scraping the barrel looking for ways to get rid of him once actively trying to kill him fails to work. Which, frankly, they might be. Using that technicality to actively divorce any and all ties with him and force him to leave (to save themselves from Ramsey, to distance themselves from Stannis, to distance themselves from Jon, or just to try and return to being a more 'traditional' Watch) could be a good way to play it.
I mean, I still doubt it would actually save them from any retribution anyone wanted to throw their way because of those things, but I can at least see why they might feasibly believe it would.
I just can't see him looking for technicalities, or un-dying and going 'Hey, I died. I'm free now!' while everyone else looks at their feet and reluctantly accepts it, and I certainly can't see people choosing to (almost)die to free them from their vows because it worked for him.
The only way the 'until my death' clause matters and someone starts clinging to the letter of the law rather than the spirit of it is if the Nights Watch are scraping the barrel looking for ways to get rid of him once actively trying to kill him fails to work. Which, frankly, they might be. Using that technicality to actively divorce any and all ties with him and force him to leave (to save themselves from Ramsey, to distance themselves from Stannis, to distance themselves from Jon, or just to try and return to being a more 'traditional' Watch) could be a good way to play it.
I mean, I still doubt it would actually save them from any retribution anyone wanted to throw their way because of those things, but I can at least see why they might feasibly believe it would.
Is it the case that the lord of light only allows resurrection of certain people who are important to his cause?
Well he clearly saved Victarion's arm so he must only care about cool people
hendersonhank
Member
The thing is, Jon doesn't actually want to be free of his vows. People have already offered him legitimate ways out and he's not interested. Jon is quite blunt, really. If he wants to break or bend his vows, he'll just do it. He's already shown his willingness on that front.
I just can't see him looking for technicalities, or un-dying and going 'Hey, I died. I'm free now!' while everyone else looks at their feet and reluctantly accepts it, and I certainly can't see people choosing to (almost)die to free them from their vows because it worked for him.
The only way the 'until my death' clause matters and someone starts clinging to the letter of the law rather than the spirit of it is if the Nights Watch are scraping the barrel looking for ways to get rid of him once actively trying to kill him fails to work. Which, frankly, they might be. Using that technicality to actively divorce any and all ties with him and force him to leave (to save themselves from Ramsey, to distance themselves from Stannis, to distance themselves from Jon, or just to try and return to being a more 'traditional' Watch) could be a good way to play it.
I mean, I still doubt it would actually save them from any retribution anyone wanted to throw their way because of those things, but I can at least see why they might feasibly believe it would.
It's important he be freed from his vows so he can become king.
/lurking
What if they burn Jon's body, say the words, freeing him from the Watch, only for his body to remain untouched by the flames.
His heritage is realized, he mounts one of Dany's dragons and decimates the Others. Dany still see's the red door in Pentos as home, so goes back to Essos. fAegon is heroically killed in battle, so Jon takes the Iron Throne. Bastard to Lord Commander to King. Sam becomes Hand of the King.
*disappears into shadows before he's yelled at*
What if they burn Jon's body, say the words, freeing him from the Watch, only for his body to remain untouched by the flames.
His heritage is realized, he mounts one of Dany's dragons and decimates the Others. Dany still see's the red door in Pentos as home, so goes back to Essos. fAegon is heroically killed in battle, so Jon takes the Iron Throne. Bastard to Lord Commander to King. Sam becomes Hand of the King.
*disappears into shadows before he's yelled at*
Chromium.Wings
Member
/lurking
What if they burn Jon's body, say the words, freeing him from the Watch, only for his body to remain untouched by the flames.
His heritage is realized, he mounts one of Dany's dragons and decimates the Others. Dany still see's the red door in Pentos as home, so goes back to Essos. fAegon is heroically killed in battle, so Jon takes the Iron Throne. Bastard to Lord Commander to King. Sam becomes Hand of the King.
*disappears into shadows before he's yelled at*
That might happen, but GRRM has confirmed that Dany is really only alive because of a fluke of magic. She got lucky, if it were any other day she would have roasted alive like Mirri Maz Durr.
/lurking
What if they burn Jon's body, say the words, freeing him from the Watch, only for his body to remain untouched by the flames.
His heritage is realized, he mounts one of Dany's dragons and decimates the Others. Dany still see's the red door in Pentos as home, so goes back to Essos. fAegon is heroically killed in battle, so Jon takes the Iron Throne. Bastard to Lord Commander to King. Sam becomes Hand of the King.
*disappears into shadows before he's yelled at*
Targs aren't actually immune to flame though.
A running theme in the books is an adherence to oaths and traditions despite the harm they cause the individual, and often even the royalty or institutions they're in place to protect. Snow showed that he was willing to buck tradition for the good of Westeros, and finally even break them to protect The North. His brothers worked against their own best interests in the name of the oath and killed him. In the end I think Snow's oaths have just been there for analogy and a plot device, and if he rises from the dead or what have you it will be clear that they didn't ever matter, and won't matter now.
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
If someone is alive, then they are by definition not dead and their oaths still apply. Death is not a temporary state of being.
So if LSH and Beric didn't die (since death is only permanent, according to you), what happened to them?
It's important he be freed from his vows so he can become king.
then why we got a baratheon king at the start of the series
Incandenza
Banned
A series known for centering its plot around the strict adherence to such vows as the guest right and not fucking your brother whilst married to the king
Words are wind.A series known for centering its plot around the strict adherence to such vows as the guest right and not fucking your brother whilst married to the king
Steelyuhas
Member
lol how long have I had the "secret targ" tag?
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
lol how long have I had the "secret targ" tag?
Whoa, that's crazy.
BobTheFork
Member
Took me a second, I didn't know they could do that with a tag.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I don't believe Jon would view has oath like some lawyer looking for a loophole; even when he broke his vows it was for the Watch. He won't willingly leave his post IMO. I can imagine a couple scenarios where he can leave the Watch without it being based on technicalities.
First, the consequences of him being revived. If he's truly dead and is revived it would certainly freak out people. I could see a situation where he's revived against Bowen Marsh's wishes and then chased from the Wall, Frankenstein style, for being a demon or something. And there's no telling what he would be like after being revived. None of the revived characters in the series have come back whole.
The second, more practical scenario: what if the Wall falls. The NW would cease to exist. In this case I wouldn't expect Jon to just say "fuck it, time to chase the Iron Throne" though. He'd more likely try to find Stannis and rally the north to continue the fight.
First, the consequences of him being revived. If he's truly dead and is revived it would certainly freak out people. I could see a situation where he's revived against Bowen Marsh's wishes and then chased from the Wall, Frankenstein style, for being a demon or something. And there's no telling what he would be like after being revived. None of the revived characters in the series have come back whole.
The second, more practical scenario: what if the Wall falls. The NW would cease to exist. In this case I wouldn't expect Jon to just say "fuck it, time to chase the Iron Throne" though. He'd more likely try to find Stannis and rally the north to continue the fight.
lol how long have I had the "secret targ" tag?
I never noticed the tag, neat.
Took me a second, I didn't know they could do that with a tag.
What are you all talking about?
EDIT:
Wait, oh shit I found out. Neat.
lol how long have I had the "secret targ" tag?
My tag is so lame by comparison. And damn, as if we don't have enough secret Targs already...
And they sent four episodes out to critics? That's almost half the season. Have they sent out that many before?
Is that new? I had no idea tags could work like that. Pretty cool.lol how long have I had the "secret targ" tag?
I can't remember the user's name off the top of my head but each time you drag your mouse over top of their "junior member" tag it adds another junior to it making it take up half a page.Is that new? I had no idea tags could work like that. Pretty cool.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Usually they send four. For S1 they sent six episodes to critics.My tag is so lame by comparison. And damn, as if we don't have enough secret Targs already...
And they sent four episodes out to critics? That's almost half the season. Have they sent out that many before?
higgsboson1997
Member
Usually they send four. For S1 they sent six episodes to critics.
Wait, how long ago did they send the screeners out? Can we expect reviews by tomorrow?
Steelyuhas
Member
Four for seasons 2 and 3, only three EPs last year though.My tag is so lame by comparison. And damn, as if we don't have enough secret Targs already...
And they sent four episodes out to critics? That's almost half the season. Have they sent out that many before?
Apparently I've had it for about a week, but I didn't know about it until yesterday.Is that new? I had no idea tags could work like that. Pretty cool.
Wait, how long ago did they send the screeners out? Can we expect reviews by tomorrow?
Reviews for the premiere will probably start to go up the week before the show starts, and subsequent episodes will go up on air date.
Damn fine tag.
That's blame space . It's different now but it still does the big expansion thing on hover "Member".
I can't remember the user's name off the top of my head but each time you drag your mouse over top of their "junior member" tag it adds another junior to it making it take up half a page.
That's blame space . It's different now but it still does the big expansion thing on hover "Member".
hendersonhank
Member
then why we got a baratheon king at the start of the series
Not sure I follow.
I don't believe Jon would view has oath like some lawyer looking for a loophole; even when he broke his vows it was for the Watch. He won't willingly leave his post IMO.
He already rode off once and only came back because Grenn and Sam etc blocked him and talked him back. And he was trying to leave again when he was stabbed (to death). Jon isn't looking for a loophole, he does what he wants anyway it seems. But there are probably a lot of people who wouldn't follow someone who deserted the Night's Watch, and being free of the vows might even help him win the loyalty of Wildlings.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
lol how long have I had the "secret targ" tag?
Oh shit! Noice!
Not sure I follow.
Baratheons don't have a claim to the crown except that they seized it. Vows are cool and all but the people of Westeros don't really give any shits about laws except in as far as obeying them (and insisting they be obeyed) directly benefits them.
Jaime made a vow as Kingsguard to Aerys. He broke that with basically no consequence except that some people sneer at him--those generally being people who sneer at Lannisters anyway. Most Westerosi players aren't mad at the Lannisters for seizing the throne because they broke the law, they're envious that the Lannisters managed to pull it off.
There's no particular reason to fear some divine reckoning for oath-breaking either. Brothers of the Watch father children all the time and they aren't getting smote.
The only person who ever gave half a shit about the laws of Westeros was Ned and he's dead, baby. Ned's dead.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
The only person who ever gave half a shit about the laws of Westeros was Ned and he's dead, baby. Ned's dead.
Is he tho?!
PHOENIXZERO
Member
Baratheons don't have a claim to the crown except that they seized it. Vows are cool and all but the people of Westeros don't really give any shits about laws except in as far as obeying them (and insisting they be obeyed) directly benefits them.
Jaime made a vow as Kingsguard to Aerys. He broke that with basically no consequence except that some people sneer at him--those generally being people who sneer at Lannisters anyway. Most Westerosi players aren't mad at the Lannisters for seizing the throne because they broke the law, they're envious that the Lannisters managed to pull it off.
There's no particular reason to fear some divine reckoning for oath-breaking either. Brothers of the Watch father children all the time and they aren't getting smote.
The only person who ever gave half a shit about the laws of Westeros was Ned and he's dead, baby. Ned's dead.
The justification for the Baratheon claim hinges on the fact that Robert's grandmother on his father's side was a Targaryen.
The justification for the Baratheon claim hinges on the fact that Robert's grandmother on his father's side was a Targaryen.
No it doesn't, that was just a paper blanket that Maesters came up with to legitimize Robert's rule. It didn't matter in any way. Remember, Ned Stark could have easily taken the throne and if he had then there would be no Targ justification for his rule. Robert rules through the simple right of Conquest.
Have been for awhile.We're really starved for actual news in here, huh?
Steelyuhas
Member
We're really starved for actual news in here, huh?
Just waiting for the season to start at this point. (I should probably make those OTs sometime soon!)
Some small news though: Watchers: A pair of new interviews
joliefaire
Neo Member
Some tidbits of news--quotes from the upcoming TV Guide Magazine. Cersei, Jaime and Jon Snow have some hints about their roles in the upcoming season. Nothing earth-shattering, mind, but interesting...
From Lena: As the season progresses, Cersei takes on a shocking new appearance. It was a great change from looking polished, Headey says. The latter half of the season is tough. Cerseis broken down by the end.
and
One choice is to ally with a new character, the High Sparrow (Jonathan Pryce), a man of faith. Their relationship is important, Benioff says, because Cersei realizes she can use him and religion for her own purposes.
From NCW:
But Jaime has a new trick up his sleeve. Instead of looking at his golden hand as a hindrance, he starts to see it as a weapon, Coster-Waldau says.
From Kit Harrington:
Jon will have to remain extra sharp as he marches into battle again at a village called Hardhome. The skirmish was the seasons most grueling shoot for Harington, with 13-hour workdays and tricky fight choreography. The stunt work this year was quite daunting and intricate, Harington says. I had to step aside a few more times [than usual] for stunt doubles. It was dangerous.
and
One choice is to ally with a new character, the High Sparrow (Jonathan Pryce), a man of faith. Their relationship is important, Benioff says, because Cersei realizes she can use him and religion for her own purposes.
From NCW:
But Jaime has a new trick up his sleeve. Instead of looking at his golden hand as a hindrance, he starts to see it as a weapon, Coster-Waldau says.
From Kit Harrington:
Jon will have to remain extra sharp as he marches into battle again at a village called Hardhome. The skirmish was the seasons most grueling shoot for Harington, with 13-hour workdays and tricky fight choreography. The stunt work this year was quite daunting and intricate, Harington says. I had to step aside a few more times [than usual] for stunt doubles. It was dangerous.
Is he tho?!
May He Live On Within Our Bosoms Forever.
Targs aren't actually immune to flame though.
The Lord of Light? There's been enough instances of...erm...questionable intervention from something (LSH, Berric etc, not so much circumstantial leeches) that they could play that card. The show kind of spins Dany's immunity as her being the true Dragon. I've just finished a S1-3 rewatch and I don't recall it ever being explained as anything else.
Let's be honest, most of us with clutch at straws for one simple reason; we don't want Jon Snow to die.
RobotChant
Member
New TWOW chapter has been released for those who read the books.
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