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[Crisco]

Which also seems to be a hallmark of the show Unsullied. They're pretty big on keeping their backs to their enemy at all times. Oh, and we saw several more of them scream in pain in this last episode as well. There's really no reason to believe, based on what we've seen this season, that Dany's army of Unsullied could have any role to play in conquering Westeros at any point.

There's a reason why the Harpies in the books would creatively lure one Shavepate/SS/Unsullied at a time into a bad situation and kill them- it's because openly engaging them at any point would have been ludicrous.

What have we seen the Unsullied do in the books? The defeated a numerically inferior force in the books which basically broke at the outset of the battle, and then took Mereen through mostly subterfuge. They were equally incapable of keeping the peace and quelling the SoftH in the books as well as the show.

Also, remember that these guys are being paid a wage now and have leisure time. They aren't the robotic death cult which held the gates of Qohor against the Dothraki horde anymore. We'll see how they perform at the battle of Mereen in the books, but I would guess Dany's army of Unsullied isn't as invincible as you think.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Can somebody point to me the evidence in the books that it's clear as day he'll come back? All I'm remembering is that mel is nearby, hints of his importance and the opening prologue with warging. Most has been fan speculation and deconstruction. But you're making it sound like I missed something.

A lot of it is in Mel's visions and prophecies. First the whole seeing Jon as a man, then a wolf, then a man again. Implying the warg deal from the prologue and some kind of return to the body. Then the whole whenever she tries to see Azor Ahai all she sees is Snow.

And the description of Jon's assassination kind of goes along with the Azor Ahain reborn prophesy. Born amidst salt and smoke. Bowen Marsh is crying for the salt. When Jon removes a dagger the that comes out is described as resembling smoke. Then a red star or bleeding star is also mentioned, and the guy that Wun Wun is murdering's sigil is a star and it's covered in blood. It's a bit odd, but I think all the elements are there. I may have missed something though.

Then there's Jon's repeated phrase of the book, "Kill the boy and let the man be born."

And also it'd be silly to tease Jon's parentage all these years and for him to be dead when it's finally revealed. I'm not really sure there'll much of an impact if Jon is revealed to be a Targaryen in the plot, but at the same time if Jon is dead and it's revealed what's the point?

 

[PhoenixDark]

It's not that difficult to infilitrate a camp with 6k people... when you look just like them. Can you personally recall 6k+ people even if some are mercenaries hired? These people aren't equip for the north so y'all just buggered off and were lazy like Stannis said.

The Unsullied aren't some super natural force that can swing a lance and kill 10 people. They're actual people with better training. Yes. They will get killed by a group of people wielding knives but the show has shown they can take down a few before they go down. Floyd Mayweather Jr would get destroyed by 4 people if they all ganged up on him. Having a knife won't dramatically increase your odds of surviving.

Boltons and Starks have been fighting over the North for a while. Yes, not geographically Winterfell but they seem adept regardless. It would be shocking if the Boltons knew Dorne very well.

That still does not explain how such an attack would be so effective. As I said, each area that was hit would be heavily guarded, especially the food. And there's no explanation for how 100 horses could be killed without making a peep. How would someone be able to put enough gasoline on siege weapons to burn them into oblivion, in a snow storm, in a camp of soldiers? Come on bro.

A knife would be a poor weapon against soldiers who fight in a phalanx. The show has "fixed" that by making the Unsullied fight individually, yet even that doesn't explain their incompetence. I get that guerrilla attacks would work, but was that a guerrilla attack in episode 9? I think not. Even the attack in episode 4 should have benefited the Unsullied, given how enclosed the fighting area was. If they formed rank...

Unsullied aren't unstoppable, but they sure as hell aren't goons who can get wrecked by anyone either.

 

[Ganzlinger]

Can somebody point to me the evidence in the books that it's clear as day he'll come back? All I'm remembering is that mel is nearby, hints of his importance and the opening prologue with warging. Most has been fan speculation and deconstruction. But you're making it sound like I missed something.

The evidence is that GRRM doesn't have the balls to kill Jon. He has a large fanbase.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

A lot of it is in Mel's visions and prophecies. First the whole seeing Jon as a man, then a wolf, then a man again. Implying the warg deal from the prologue and some kind of return to the body. Then the whole whenever she tries to see Azor Ahai all she sees is Snow.

And the description of Jon's assassination kind of goes along with the Azor Ahain reborn prophesy. Born amidst salt and smoke. Bowen Marsh is crying for the salt. When Jon removes a dagger the that comes out is described as resembling smoke. Then a red star or bleeding star is also mentioned, and the guy that Wun Wun is murdering's sigil is a star and it's covered in blood. It's a bit odd, but I think all the elements are there. I may have missed something though.

Then there's Jon's repeated phrase of the book, "Kill the boy and let the man be born."

And also it'd be silly to tease Jon's parentage all these years and for him to be dead when it's finally revealed. I'm not really sure there'll much of an impact if Jon is revealed to be a Targaryen in the plot, but at the same time if Jon is dead and it's revealed what's the point?

I got all of that and I agree there are too many questions for him to die but guys here were making it sound like there was something else.

 

[jett]

It makes zero narrative sense that Jon is dead for real. GRRM can write shitty things sometimes, but that would be a whole new level for him.

Definitely sounds like a child of the forest. Since it sounds like this character will be featured a lot, it seems like they are completely recasting Leaf. Hopefully this means her and Bloodraven get a major visual overhaul. Also, action scenes? BRAN'S CRAWLIN OUTTA THAT CAVE GUYS

I've suddenly been reminded of Jojen's death.

I'll never understand how that happened like that.

 

[Real Hero]

I totally think they will kill off Stannis and Davos. Maybe they kill Davos alongside Jon Snow

 

[jett]

I totally think they will kill off Stannis and Davos. Maybe they kill Davos alongside Jon Snow

The more people are dead the merrier!

 

[Zabka]

CASTING ALERT

http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-casting-for-another-season-6-female-role/



Definitely sounds like a child of the forest. Since it sounds like this character will be featured a lot, it seems like they are completely recasting Leaf. Hopefully this means her and Bloodraven get a major visual overhaul. Also, action scenes? BRAN'S CRAWLIN OUTTA THAT CAVE GUYS

That description sounds like Maisie Williams. Wasn't Lyanna supposed to look like Arya?

Nevermind, that's way too much time for a flashback

Why would they be months from the wall? Davos plans to return to Castle Black and back within "a few days". Plus it feels like Ramsay and his '20 good men' and Bolton's scouts are a stones throw away from Stannis's camp with how fast they get shit done. Nobody has seen a winter for a decade so I'm not sure how much of an edge their 'experience' gives them. Shit was handled poorly.

They're not months from the wall. They're stuck with a giant army and siege weapons.

 

[Zabka]

double post

 

[AndyD]

Ensure they appoint Myrcella Queen after Tommen is killed.

That was my thought too. Tommen and Cersei will be out of the picture, so Myrcella will be next with Jaime supporting her. That was also why I thought they drove home the fact that incest was not a problem for them culturally, in that it would not affect their view of her legitimacy to the throne.

 

[Euron]

CASTING ALERT

http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-casting-for-another-season-6-female-role/



Definitely sounds like a child of the forest. Since it sounds like this character will be featured a lot, it seems like they are completely recasting Leaf. Hopefully this means her and Bloodraven get a major visual overhaul. Also, action scenes? BRAN'S CRAWLIN OUTTA THAT CAVE GUYS

My first thought was Penny, which legitimately terrified me. Hopefully they completely redo Bloodraven's look at least.

 

[Ganzlinger]

So when Hizdahr said "Just making sure everything is in order", he had really just been busy taking a shit or something, right? Dude clearly had no clue what was going on. He was even surprised when Jorah showed up lol.

I was thinking the same.

He was probably taking a shit. lol

 

[Ikael]

olly being the only one would be terrible
but leaving jon dead would be fine, its like the books, I don't see how that would make D&D hacks, unless you think GRRM is a hack as well for trying to make us believe for a second that jon is dead, I would actually agree with that.

Martin's editors decided in the very last moment to take out the books the climaxes of every single storyline present. Stannis battle, Jon's death aftermath, Meeren's battle, Cersei's trial by combat, all saved for the latter Winds of Winter, driving the reader straight into cliffhangerville, thus making the reading of the two previous books absolutely meaningless, for lots of new plots have been introduced, yet none resolved.

To see the showrunners falling into the same trap would be disappointing as fuck, and would leave the viewers with a serious case of narrative blueballs, since they have been waiting for 6 seasons of waiting for Daenerys to resolve going to Westeros, Jon's parentage to be resolved, and a long list of plots to arrive to their obvious conclussion.

But of course the showrunners will repeat the same mistakes. I have zero faith in them now after the latest episode.

 

[ChaosZeroX]

Martin's editors decided in the very last moment to take out the books the climaxes of every single storyline present. Stannis battle, Jon's death aftermath, Meeren's battle, Cersei's trial by combat, all saved for the latter Winds of Winter, driving the reader straight into cliffhangerville, thus making the reading of the two previous books absolutely meaningless, for lots of new plots have been introduced, yet none resolved.

To see the showrunners falling into the same trap would be disappointing as fuck, and would leave the viewers with a serious case of narrative blueballs, since they have been waiting for 6 seasons of waiting for Daenerys to resolve going to Westeros, Jon's parentage to be resolved, and a long list of plots to arrive to their obvious conclussion.

But of course the showrunners will repeat the same mistakes. I have zero faith in them now after the latest episode.

Agreed. Cliffhangar city is coming out way in the season finale. Nothing will be resolved and we will have to wait until next season.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Obviously the show isn't the books.

First of all, enough of that saying. The show is based on the books, last time I checked. D&D didn't invent the Unsullied for the show. They carried them over from the books and, until S5, presented them to us exactly as they were depicted in the books.

Go back some time and watch how the Unsullied are presented to us in S3. Listen to what Kraznys says about them. Listen to what Jorah and Barry say about them. Watch one of them get his nipple cut off and not react. Watch them form up and roll through not just the Good Masters, but the Astapori soldiers.

The Unsullied aren't an unstoppable force. Yes. Their backs will be against their enemies in a mess of a fight. What did you expect? Them all to whirlwind and send corpses flying? Toss a light well when one is injured? Outside of plot armor, all characters can be killed if multiple people surround them. I have a feeling people who think the Unsullied are weak will probably hate the fact that dragons--hold the gasps--can be damaged by spears.

I expect them to be Unsullied. To form up, not break formation, not panic, not scream out in pain, etc. If they win an engagement, they do it like Unsullied. If they lose, that's fine too, but they do it like Unsullied. The showrunners basically changed who and what the Unsullied are in order to make dudes in robes with knives into the boogeyman this season. It's no different than any other character break. What we're left with now is an army of Unsullied that might as well be any random sellsword company.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

That still does not explain how such an attack would be so effective. As I said, each area that was hit would be heavily guarded, especially the food. And there's no explanation for how 100 horses could be killed without making a peep. How would someone be able to put enough gasoline on siege weapons to burn them into oblivion, in a snow storm, in a camp of soldiers? Come on bro.

A knife would be a poor weapon against soldiers who fight in a phalanx. The show has "fixed" that by making the Unsullied fight individually, yet even that doesn't explain their incompetence. I get that guerrilla attacks would work, but was that a guerrilla attack in episode 9? I think not. Even the attack in episode 4 should have benefited the Unsullied, given how enclosed the fighting area was. If they formed rank...

Unsullied aren't unstoppable, but they sure as hell aren't goons who can get wrecked by anyone either.

Heavily guarded? Stannis even inquired if they were lazy or traitors. Did you want a play-by-play of how this went down? You can stretch your imagination just a bit in a land of fairy tales and magic that 20 people were able to set some shit on fire in a giant army camp (where you're not known). At this point it's nitpickery for the sake of nitpickery. Was it done flawlessly? No. May as well say, "HOW DID DROGON KNOW WHERE DAEYNERAS WAS?!>!?!?! NEED TO SEE THE SCENT TRAIL RECEIPTS."

Umm... the Sons of the Harpy emerged from the crowd and ganked the troops stationed as guards. You're really downplaying how many Harpies were there. Did you know that Russia and USA have lost to poorly trained in mountains for a long time now? I know... really good soldiers lose to people with outdated weaponry but use guerrilla warfare. Unsullied are just trained soldiers. They're going to get merked if they're being stabbed in the back or being stabbed by multiple people. They're not anime characters.

 

[Real Hero]

I don't think the show runners are the kind to actually consider fighting styles etc beyond giving them lip service

 

[munchie64]

I'd actually defend the Ramsay and 20 good men burning the encampment. That kind of plot point is used so often in fiction, that it just fits to me.

However the Unsullied stuff is pretty bullshit. Internal show logic is inconsistent in that regard.

 

[SpaceHorror]

I don't think the pink letter is in, it could be, but

Spoiler

the Onion Knight going back to Castle Black seems to have replaced it. Davos tried to convince Jon earlier to help Stannis, now he returns to the Wall with news of the Stannis' supplies and horses being decimated. He'll try to convince Jon to do more than just send bread.

Of course, it could be Davos and the pink letter that convinces Jon to act.

 

[Ratrat]

No. May as well say, "HOW DID DROGON KNOW WHERE DAEYNERAS WAS?!>!?!?! NEED TO SEE THE SCENT TRAIL RECEIPTS."

Bit that WAS badly done. It was a silly deus ex machina that is getting compared to Attack of the Clones and Neverending Story.
But really, it was loud and bloody. That's what brought him.

In the books, a 14 year old Robb Stark with a numerically inferior force and no prior experience, outwits and defeats some of the most seasoned and skilled warriors/commanders in all of Westeros. Ramsay sneaking into a snowed in encampment in the middle of the night and lighting some tents on fire is hardly implausible in the land of GRRM.

I think if something similar were to happen in the books, GRRM would flesh it out in a more believable way: with the traitors, I forget if it was Umber or Karstark etc... The show doesn't have that luxury.

 

[TheOctodad]

Bit that WAS badly done. It was a silly deus ex machina that is getting compared to Attack of the Clones and Neverending Story.
But really, it was loud and bloody. That's what brought him.

I don't see how that could have still not been the case. But it would have been hard to display that without more time and detail.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

What have we seen the Unsullied do in the books? The defeated a numerically inferior force in the books which basically broke at the outset of the battle, and then took Mereen through mostly subterfuge. They were equally incapable of keeping the peace and quelling the SoftH in the books as well as the show.

At no point in the books do we see Harpys openly engage entire units of Unsullied the way they've done in S5. There's a reason for that.

Also, since you brought the books up, at what point in the books do we see Unsullied panic, break ranks, react to pain, and fall apart in combat?

Also, remember that these guys are being paid a wage now and have leisure time. They aren't the robotic death cult which held the gates of Qohor against the Dothraki horde anymore. We'll see how they perform at the battle of Mereen in the books, but I would guess Dany's army of Unsullied isn't as invincible as you think.

Never said I expect them to be invincible. I just expect them to be Unsullied. Or, if they're not going to be Unsullied, I expect a foundation to be laid as to why they've changed. You've done a better job of that in your first sentence above than the showrunners have done in 9+ hours of screen time thus far this season.

I don't think the show runners are the kind to actually consider fighting styles etc beyond giving them lip service

Pretty much.

 

[Ratrat]

I don't see how that could have still not been the case. But it would have been hard to display that without more time and detail.

Really? The scene is needlessly more complex and extravagant than the book.

 

[eot]

I don't think the pink letter is in, it could be, but

Spoiler

the Onion Knight going back to Castle Black seems to have replaced it. Davos tried to convince Jon earlier to help Stannis, now he returns to the Wall with news of the Stannis' supplies and horses being decimated. He'll try to convince Jon to do more than just send bread.

Of course, it could be Davos and the pink letter that convinces Jon to act.

I was just going to say the same thing. Stannis handed him a piece of paper, did he not?

 

[ChaosZeroX]

I don't think the pink letter is in, it could be, but

Spoiler

the Onion Knight going back to Castle Black seems to have replaced it. Davos tried to convince Jon earlier to help Stannis, now he returns to the Wall with news of the Stannis' supplies and horses being decimated. He'll try to convince Jon to do more than just send bread.

Of course, it could be Davos and the pink letter that convinces Jon to act.

Holy shit I didn't even think about that. He could definitely try to convince Jon again.

 

[fallengorn]

Heavily guarded? Stannis even inquired if they were lazy or traitors. Did you want a play-by-play of how this went down? You can stretch your imagination just a bit in a land of fairy tales and magic that 20 people were able to set some shit on fire in a giant army camp (where you're not known). At this point it's nitpickery for the sake of nitpickery. Was it done flawlessly? No. May as well say, "HOW DID DROGON KNOW WHERE DAEYNERAS WAS?!>!?!?! NEED TO SEE THE SCENT TRAIL RECEIPTS."

Ramsay and the funky bunch destroyed Stannis' camp? Fine. But it still comes off as completely contrived. Especially since it all happened off screen. Especially since Ramsay's only fight scene was completely contrived as well.

Umm... the Sons of the Harpy emerged from the crowd and ganked the troops stationed as guards. You're really downplaying how many Harpies were there. Did you know that Russia and USA have lost to poorly trained in mountains for a long time now? I know... really good soldiers lose to people with outdated weaponry but use guerrilla warfare. Unsullied are just trained soldiers. They're going to get merked if they're being stabbed in the back or being stabbed by multiple people. They're not anime characters.

But... they weren't depicted as good soldiers this season. That's what's riling people up. Blame D&D. Blame the stunt coordinator. They sucked this season. All the "ambushes" were staged terribly.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

I'm watching the finale with non book readers in a viewing party Really considering filming their reactions.

 

[Iksenpets]

I don't think the pink letter is in, it could be, but

Spoiler

the Onion Knight going back to Castle Black seems to have replaced it. Davos tried to convince Jon earlier to help Stannis, now he returns to the Wall with news of the Stannis' supplies and horses being decimated. He'll try to convince Jon to do more than just send bread.

Of course, it could be Davos and the pink letter that convinces Jon to act.

Spoiler

I think the letter is in, but Davos will be involved. Now my fear is that if they want to drop the Stannis plot, Davos will get killed at Castle Black as well. I don't think that's where they're going, but it's a slight fear at least.

 

[Ratrat]

Spoiler

I think the letter is in, but Davos will be involved. Now my fear is that if they want to drop the Stannis plot, Davos will get killed at Castle Black as well. I don't think that's where they're going, but it's a slight fear at least.

Yes. What is the point of Davos without Stannis? I really hope it's not Sansa who sends him Rickon hunting.

 

[Byakuya769]

Sometimes I wonder if people actually read the books or thought reading wikia ahead of the show was the same thing...

The Unsullied had problems policing terrorists, not openly fighting them. Show has gotten it completely wrong.

 

[Dany]

like what the fuck. i just saw the episode.

would book stannis do this? lol how shit.

 

[Moff]

Martin's editors decided in the very last moment to take out the books the climaxes of every single storyline present. Stannis battle, Jon's death aftermath, Meeren's battle, Cersei's trial by combat, all saved for the latter Winds of Winter, driving the reader straight into cliffhangerville, thus making the reading of the two previous books absolutely meaningless, for lots of new plots have been introduced, yet none resolved.

To see the showrunners falling into the same trap would be disappointing as fuck, and would leave the viewers with a serious case of narrative blueballs, since they have been waiting for 6 seasons of waiting for Daenerys to resolve going to Westeros, Jon's parentage to be resolved, and a long list of plots to arrive to their obvious conclussion.

But of course the showrunners will repeat the same mistakes. I have zero faith in them now after the latest episode.

oh I didn't know that, and it's odd that the editor would make such an important decision witthout GRRMs blessing

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Heavily guarded? Stannis even inquired if they were lazy or traitors. Did you want a play-by-play of how this went down? You can stretch your imagination just a bit in a land of fairy tales and magic that 20 people were able to set some shit on fire in a giant army camp (where you're not known). At this point it's nitpickery for the sake of nitpickery. Was it done flawlessly? No. May as well say, "HOW DID DROGON KNOW WHERE DAEYNERAS WAS?!>!?!?! NEED TO SEE THE SCENT TRAIL RECEIPTS."

Umm... the Sons of the Harpy emerged from the crowd and ganked the troops stationed as guards. You're really downplaying how many Harpies were there. Did you know that Russia and USA have lost to poorly trained in mountains for a long time now? I know... really good soldiers lose to people with outdated weaponry but use guerrilla warfare. Unsullied are just trained soldiers. They're going to get merked if they're being stabbed in the back or being stabbed by multiple people. They're not anime characters.

OK. I think I see what you're about now.

What we're (or at least I am) really complaining about here with shirtless Ramsay and his band of northern ninja masters, or with Dany's suddenly useless army of Unsullied, is that, in the increasing absence of adaptable book material, the showrunners have devolved into mass tentpole writing. They needed a boogeyman in Mereen, so they rendered the Unsullied useless in order to make that happen. They needed Stannis to be properly motivated to pull a 180 and burn his daughter at the stake, so they cooked up this implausible attack by Ramsay. There are countless other examples of this type of lazy/bad writing happening increasingly over the last two seasons, and what I and others are seeing is the central narrative of the show is starting to crumble under its own weight as a consequence.

But there's no reason going any further with our conversation. Posters like yourself are obviously pretty dug in. I'm not going to convince you of anything if you can't already see it.

Sometimes I wonder if people actually read the books or thought reading wikia ahead of the show was the same thing...

The Unsullied had problems policing terrorists, not openly fighting them. Show has gotten it completely wrong.

Boom.

 

[Tripon]

We are getting Jon Stonehart.

 

[Iksenpets]

oh I didn't know that, and it's odd that the editor would make such an important decision witthout GRRMs blessing

They had his blessing. They told him they can only bind so many pages in a book, and so the battles weren't going to fit without cuts elsewhere. They convinced him it was better to release now with what he had rather than wait several more months for him to finish the battles and then either have to cut other material or release the book in two volumes. It's not like they had the battle manuscripts and just decided to go rogue and not publish them.

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

oh I didn't know that, and it's odd that the editor would make such an important decision witthout GRRMs blessing

I doubt it was without GRRMs blessing.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Why didn't the eagles just take Bran and Hodor all the way to the three eyed crow?!

 

[Moff]

They had his blessing. They told him they can only bind so many pages in a book, and so the battles weren't going to fit without cuts elsewhere. They convinced him it was better to release now with what he had rather than wait several more months for him to finish the battles and then either have to cut other material or release the book in two volumes. It's not like they had the battle manuscripts and just decided to go rogue and not publish them.

I doubt it was without GRRMs blessing.

well in that case I don't see how we cane take the blame from GRRM to end with such a silly cliffhanger.

 

[ChaosZeroX]

Why didn't the eagles just take Bran and Hodor all the way to the three eyed crow?!

Because Hodor is a dragon. Who needs eagles?

 

[SpaceHorror]

I doubt it was without GRRMs blessing.

It wasn't.

There are several interviews with GRRM where he says he eventually came around to the idea for practical reasons, as you can only bound so many pages in one book. To keep all of that stuff in ADWD would have required a book split, which no one wanted.

 

[Faddy]

It wasn't.

There are several interviews with GRRM where he says he eventually came around to the idea for practical reasons, as you can only bound so many pages in one book. To keep all of that stuff in ADWD would have required a book split, which no one wanted.

There would have been room if he hadn't filled 200 pages with turtles

 

[Dany]

God bless drogon. This is the most action a Dany story has had since season 1.

 

[Ratrat]

There would have been room if he hadn't filled 200 pages with turtles

Agreed. The Victarion and Cersei stuff could have been in Feast as well.

 

[eot]

It wasn't.

There are several interviews with GRRM where he says he eventually came around to the idea for practical reasons, as you can only bound so many pages in one book. To keep all of that stuff in ADWD would have required a book split, which no one wanted.

My edition of ADwD came in two parts anyway :|

 

[PhoenixDark]

oh I didn't know that, and it's odd that the editor would make such an important decision witthout GRRMs blessing

His editor has said they both agreed to remove one of the battles, and then she fought effortlessly to finally convince him to remove the other as well. She's on record as saying both of them felt the book included enough stuff for these cuts not to matter. Which I find highly problematic. The book steadily builds up to both battles. Most of the politics and maneuvering in the book revolve around the battles. Not including them was a bad decision. Yes I like ADWD a lot but this is its biggest flaw to me. It's like if Jon's ASOS arc didn't get to the Wall battle; so much of Jon's material in that book revolves around getting to that battle.

The negative here is that including the battles would have delayed the book into 2012. It would also require perhaps 100 pages worth of re-writing to make room for it. Personally I think two chapters could have been cut/rewritten from Jon and Tyrion at least. That's what, 50 pages? Would that be enough to at least get one battle in (probably the Stannis/Freys one)?

 

[Subpar Spatula]

First of all, enough of that saying. The show is based on the books, last time I checked. D&D didn't invent the Unsullied for the show. They carried them over from the books and, until S5, presented them to us exactly as they were depicted in the books.

Go back some time and watch how the Unsullied are presented to us in S3. Listen to what Kraznys says about them. Listen to what Jorah and Barry say about them. Watch one of them get his nipple cut off and not react. Watch them form up and roll through not just the Good Masters, but the Astapori soldiers.



I expect them to be Unsullied. To form up, not break formation, not panic, not scream out in pain, etc. If they win an engagement, they do it like Unsullied. If they lose, that's fine too, but they do it like Unsullied. The showrunners basically changed who and what the Unsullied are in order to make dudes in robes with knives into the boogeyman this season. It's no different than any other character break. What we're left with now is an army of Unsullied that might as well be any random sellsword company.

The Unsullied are not the robotic death army anymore. They wouldn't go to brothels or want company if so. They've been greatly humanized over the series. Yes. They will scream. Why is that bad? Does that make them... less skilled?

People are seriously denying how many Harpies were in the arena. Heck, Drogon would have died because of spears if Dany didn't leave with him. I honestly wonder if you guys actually think these people are as durable as terminators--that they'll kill 1000 men each without breaking a sweat. Yes. They have tactics. Those tactics are useless when, you know, getting stabbed by the people you're supposed to be protecting. USA and Russia both lost these types of wars, y'all shouldn't be surprised when this type of stuff is effective.

Ramsay and the funky bunch destroyed Stannis' camp? Fine. But it still comes off as completely contrived. Especially since it all happened off screen. Especially since Ramsay's only fight scene was completely contrived as well.



But... they weren't depicted as good soldiers this season. That's what's riling people up. Blame D&D. Blame the stunt coordinator. They sucked this season. All the "ambushes" were staged terribly.

Staged terribly is a different argument. The argument is whether or not the Unsullied should be taken down by guerilla warfare which is yes. They're not anime characters who swing their spear with lines on the screen and 10 men scream in agony and go flying away. They're just well trained people. They are susceptible to being mobbed.

Ramsay snuck in a camp with 20 people (a camp of thousands) and burned tents and weaponry. This isn't some impossible feat. It's nitpicking at its finest.

OK. I think I see what you're about now.

What we're (or at least I am) really complaining about here with shirtless Ramsay and his band of northern ninja masters, or with Dany's suddenly useless army of Unsullied, is that, in the increasing absence of adaptable book material, the showrunners have devolved into mass tentpole writing. They needed a boogeyman in Mereen, so they rendered the Unsullied useless in order to make that happen. They needed Stannis to be properly motivated to pull a 180 and burn his daughter at the stake, so they cooked up this implausible attack by Ramsay. There are countless other examples of this type of lazy/bad writing happening increasingly over the last two seasons, and what I and others are seeing is the central narrative of the show is starting to crumble under its own weight as a consequence.

But there's no reason going any further with our conversation. Posters like yourself are obviously pretty dug in. I'm not going to convince you of anything if you can't already see it.



Boom.

You call me dug in? You're fanatic about a book and show where dragons and zombies exist with giants and people who can control animals. 20 men burn supplies in a camp of thousands, a father sacrifices his daughter (same man who has a history of sacrifice and killing loved ones), and Unsullied who, you know, die when stabbed are bad? Yes. Stannis was motivated. Sacrificing his daughter is out of the question? It's quite obvious his goal has ALWAYS come first. A boogeyman in Mereen? Well, yeah. It's conflict. The White Walkers are boogeymen but no one cares points that out. Can you detail why that's wrong instead of saying it's wrong?

 

[Shuggananas]

God bless drogon. This is the most action a Dany story has had since season 1.

!

 

[NeoGiff]

OYSTERS CLAMS AND COCKLESSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!

 

[cartoon_soldier]

E10 preview

Spoiler

We go to Moat Calin in Episode 10. Why?