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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 5 - Sundays on HBO

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bengraven

bengraven

Member
For years in the fantasy industry, whenever a female character, hero or villain, was introduced - usually by white males - they got slapped, raped, fondled their braids and singled out as females.

Now, my girl? Sansa? She ain't gonna have none of that bullshit. She's descended from the First Men, that established the first society in Westeros, while all you Forest motherfuckers were hiding out in caves and shit, all terrified of the Others.

She's a strong role model that a young female reader can look up to. Cause I'm here to tell you, the chickens is coming home to roost, y'all. Female characters are no longer gonna play the minstrel in the realm of comics and sci-fi fantasy. They keepin it real, and they gonna get respect by any means necessary.
 
M

Massa

Member
Pyramid head said:
Book version: Sansa is taken under Littlefinger's wing, he takes her to his home and shows how he has risen from nothing. Sansa finds a maternal instinct through caring for her 'Sweetrobin'. She is lined up to marry Harry the Heir, who seems like he might be a bit of a swine, but Sansa puts him in his place and soon has him eating out the palm of her hand.

Show: Raped. Wants to die.
Click to expand...

Books: Littlefinger tells her what to do and marries her off for his own gains. Continues in TBD.

Show: Littlefinger tells her what to do and marries her off for his own gains. Things don't go well for her.
 
R

Ratrat

Member
Massa said:
Books: Littlefinger tells her what to do and marries her off for his own gains. Continues in TBD.

Show: Littlefinger tells her what to do and marries her off for his own gains. Things don't go well for her.
Click to expand...
No. In the book she is being trained. Littlefinger has her actually observe his dealings with the lords and teaches her how to manipulate people without them knowing it(show Littlefinger is so shit). Another failure of the show is Sansas character. In the book she has been groomed to be the 'perfect lady' she's too polite to laugh at Arya, she defends Tommen from Joffrey or is gracious when speaking with Kevan and Lancel. Tyrion notes that she's great at talking with people. She is a drag in the show. 'Oh wait, I just realized, I don't care!'

And Baelish is giving her The North and the Eyrie. Not forcing her to get revenge on her own to literally the worst possible man in Westeros.
 
A

Atraveller

Banned
Latvian Hitman said:
Yeah, about that!

Oysters.jpg
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LOL

Brakke said:
Total lunacy! Don't expand Meereen at this point. Cut and run!
Click to expand...
Nah, I want to see Tyrion take control and boss everyone around.

gioGAF said:
While books 1 through 3 were great and provided a more detailed story than the corresponding seasons, books 4 and 5 were mostly TRASH. The show is trumping the books now.

If the show had actually followed the books, they would have lost most of their audience since this season would be about characters the audience had never even been exposed to before. Just think, an episode 9 Kingsmoot instead of what we got, lol.
Click to expand...
I couldn't disagree more, sure the books needed to be trimmed down for a TV show, D&D have been focusing on the wrong parts. The only good cuts are Tyrion's trek and Quentyn and Brienne. Sansa should be given Bran's treatment, let her stay in the Vale with minimal screen time, same goes for Jaime if Riverland is really not happening, since both of their new stories did nothing.

Then extra scree time should be given to fleshing out existing story lines and maybe some minor Iron islands setups. Dorne could've been much better if you trim down the cheesy Sand Snakes, speed their plot up and give more time to Doran talking to people and making preparations for his rebellion. Everyone else's story lines would have been less rushed especially Stannis and Dany's.

Also, Dany's departure in episode 9 made no sense, and Euron's return and Kingsmoot could be great season ending materials.
 
B

Brakke

Banned
lmao Sansa-Stans you just keep holding that L going to bat for the vapidest twit there ever was. she's "training" whatever, she doesn't have any goals.

sanstans smh
 
I

Iksenpets

Banned
Atraveller said:
LOL

Nah, I want to see Tyrion take control and boss everyone around.

I couldn't disagree more, sure the books needed to be trimmed down for a TV show, D&D have been focusing on the wrong parts. The only good cuts are Tyrion's trek and Quentyn and Brienne. Sansa should be given Bran's treatment, let her stay in the Vale with minimal screen time, same goes for Jaime if Riverland is really not happening, since both of their new stories did nothing.

Then extra scree time should be given to fleshing out existing story lines and maybe some minor Iron islands setups. Dorne could've been much better if you trim down the cheesy Sand Snakes, speed their plot up and give more time to Doran talking to people and making preparations for his rebellion. Everyone else's story lines would have been less rushed especially Stannis and Dany's.

Also, Dany's departure in episode 9 made no sense, and Euron's return and Kingsmoot could be great season ending materials.
Click to expand...

I think Sansa in Winterfell and Jaime in Dorne were smart moves to condense the plot. They just wrote them awfully. If they had rolled some of Manderly into Sansa instead of having her straight up play Jeyne Poole, that story could have been great. Better than the books. It would've covered all of her growing skill in politics in a location people actually care about.

Dorne just needed to be less cheesy. Jaime going there is fine and makes sense, but the girls needed to be developed into something other than one-note revenge machines. They really needed a goal other than just murdering a teenage girl with silly whips. Some scenes of actual conversations, maybe some time reminiscing about their dad and why they cared about him so much. They're supposed to be pretty much the closest family in the series outside of maybe the Starks, but they don't feel like it all because we hardly ever see them talk about anything besides murder. Jaime being there could have still worked fine with that.
 
R

Ratrat

Member
Brakke said:
lmao Sansa-Stans you just keep holding that L going to bat for the vapidest twit there ever was. she's "training" whatever, she doesn't have any goals.

sanstans smh
Click to expand...
She definitely is. Hasn't made much progress yet, from what see as well. It's kind of miraculous they managed to make her several degrees worse and pointless.
Iksenpets said:
Dorne just needed to be less cheesy. Jaime going there is fine and makes sense, but the girls needed to be developed into something other than one-note revenge machines. They really needed a goal other than just murdering a teenage girl with silly whips. Some scenes of actual conversations, maybe some time reminiscing about their dad and why they cared about him so much. They're supposed to be pretty much the closest family in the series outside of maybe the Starks, but they don't feel like it all because we hardly ever see them talk about anything besides murder. Jaime being there could have still worked fine with that.
Click to expand...
There was no saving that mess. Jaime going to Dorne makes no sense, envoy or infiltrator. There was nothing to salvage, they would pretty much have to redo the entire thing to make it half decent.
 
D

Dusk Soldier

Member
I don't think logistically they could have sat Sansa out a full season, as she's not a child actor like Bran.

And there is just too little material, and too many characters to do her Vale storyline. The swap out with Jeyne Poole was the best thing they could've done for her character.
 
B

Betty

Banned
I never liked Sansa, covering for Joffery and getting her beautiful Direwolf killed kinda soured me on her forever, she's done nothing since to change that opinion.

Can't wait to see Davos' reaction to the burning.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Iksenpets said:
I think Sansa in Winterfell and Jaime in Dorne were smart moves to condense the plot. They just wrote them awfully. If they had rolled some of Manderly into Sansa instead of having her straight up play Jeyne Poole, that story could have been great. Better than the books. It would've covered all of her growing skill in politics in a location people actually care about.

Dorne just needed to be less cheesy. Jaime going there is fine and makes sense, but the girls needed to be developed into something other than one-note revenge machines. They really needed a goal other than just murdering a teenage girl with silly whips. Some scenes of actual conversations, maybe some time reminiscing about their dad and why they cared about him so much. They're supposed to be pretty much the closest family in the series outside of maybe the Starks, but they don't feel like it all because we hardly ever see them talk about anything besides murder. Jaime being there could have still worked fine with that.
Click to expand...
Big Red X.
 
A

Atraveller

Banned
Dusk Soldier said:
I don't think logistically they could have sat Sansa out a full season, as she's not a child actor like Bran.

And there is just too little material, and too many characters to do her Vale storyline. The swap out with Jeyne Poole was the best thing they could've done for her character.
Click to expand...
Why not? She only needed to appear from time to time, and then go back to book 6 material in the next season.

Making her into Manderly like we speculated at the start of the season sounds like a great idea, too bad it never happened.
 
D

Dysun

Member
Too bad they took a hatchet to the best material in books 4 & 5 (Winterfell), cut all the subterfuge, passive aggressive Manderly and Frey interactions and Theon's return from being Reek. The rape made headlines though, so I guess it worked out in the end from their perspective
 
M

Massa

Member
Ratrat said:
She definitely is. Hasn't made much progress yet, from what see as well. It's kind of miraculous they managed to make her several degrees worse and pointless.
Click to expand...

And who says she makes any progress? Or that Littlefinger succeeds in manipulating her into a powerful position?

It seems to me that people have a problem with Sansa's arc in season 5 because it contradicts what they expect to happen to her in book 6.

Dysun said:
Too bad they took a hatchet to the best material in books 4 & 5 (Winterfell), cut all the subterfuge, passive aggressive Manderly and Frey interactions and Theon's return from being Reek. The rape made headlines though, so I guess it worked out in the end from their perspective
Click to expand...

Well they had plenty of passive aggressive Sansa, and the Winterfell plot is not done yet.
 
P

Patriots7

Member
Massa said:
And who says she makes any progress? Or that Littlefinger succeeds in manipulating her into a powerful position?

It seems to me that people have a problem with Sansa's arc in season 5 because it contradicts what they expect to happen to her in book 6.



Well they had plenty of passive aggressive Sansa, and the Winterfell plot is not done yet.
Click to expand...
Oh wow. Lol.
People have a problem with Sansa's arc because her arc is stupid and illogical and served as another awful, unnecessary shock value play.

Winterfell is absolute shit. Even made worse because the Winterfell parts in the books were so great.
 
W

WrenchNinja

Member
A major problem with the winterfell plot and a lot of the show lately is how small everything feels. If not for the letter from Lyanna Mormont, you'd think there'd be no other Lords in the north other than Roose. The omission of Manderly and Dustin was a mistake.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
What if they just did a season dedicated to characters that were left out of the show?

Like give them their own separate storylines but leave out the main actors we know now.
 
J

JeffZero

Purple Drazi
Speevy said:
What if they just did a season dedicated to characters that were left out of the show?

Like give them their own separate storylines but leave out the main actors we know now.
Click to expand...

Ratings would actually tank, as opposed to the hyperbole surrounding the current ratings that's gone on all season.

Nah, I don't know. Depending on how it were marketed it could do well. I mean it is Game of Thrones. But I think doing this between "real" seasons would be a marketing mishap.
 
G

Gattsu25

Banned
Pyramid head said:
Book version: Sansa is taken under Littlefinger's wing, he takes her to his home and shows how he has risen from nothing. Sansa finds a maternal instinct through caring for her 'Sweetrobin'. She is lined up to marry Harry the Heir, who seems like he might be a bit of a swine, but Sansa puts him in his place and soon has him eating out the palm of her hand.

Show: Raped. Wants to die.
Click to expand...

This is conveniently forgetting how unlikable the book Sansa is during the entirety of the first few books. The show smartly didn't try to get the entire viewership to hate her at the start of the story.
 
C

Chance Hale

Member
Started the show over from the beginning in preparation for Sunday now that it will be the only source of GoT for a while. Up to the third season and it's hard to watch the scenes with Shireen knowing what's coming up. Will say that burning makes more sense in the context of the show, with the initial statements about a sacrifice being needed being brought up minutes before she is introduced. Although who knows whether they knew about her eventual fate then. I assume they were given all of that information from GRRM at the very beginning?

Looking forward to both versions of the series being done in a few years
decade
so that they can be judged on their own.
 
L

Lothar

Banned
Gattsu25 said:
This is conveniently forgetting how unlikable the book Sansa is during the entirety of the first few books. The show smartly didn't try to get the entire viewership to hate her at the start of the story.
Click to expand...

What did she do that was so bad and not typical of an ordinary 11 year old?

ricochetguro said:
Started the show over from the beginning in preparation for Sunday now that it will be the only source of GoT for a while. Up to the third season and it's hard to watch the scenes with Shireen knowing what's coming up. Will say that burning makes more sense in the context of the show, with the initial statements about a sacrifice being needed being brought up minutes before she is introduced.
Click to expand...

It was always heavily foreshadowed. It's the doing it with no hesitation that makes no sense. As soon as Ramsay attacks, he sends Davos to the wall immediately. He couldn't wait one more day to see if the storm clears. He couldn't wait to see if Davos brings back supplies from the Wall. He couldn't wait just to think about the biggest decision he'll make in his life.

The situation doesn't even seem as bad as it does in the books where his men are so hungry they're actually eating people. Even then he refuses to burn non-believers, and tells people in case he dies to crown Shireen.
 
R

Ratrat

Member
Gattsu25 said:
This is conveniently forgetting how unlikable the book Sansa is during the entirety of the first few books. The show smartly didn't try to get the entire viewership to hate her at the start of the story.
Click to expand...
Aside from being wrong, how is that smart? Show Sansa is more likable(she isn't), so lets put her through hell for 5 seasons straight.
 
B

Brakke

Banned
Lothar said:
What did she do that was so bad and not typical of an ordinary 11 year old?
Click to expand...

"Sansa behaves like an eleven year old realistically would!" is so so milquetoast. Sansa is useless because she doesn't have goals or desires or dreams. She just exists. Whether or not her behavior is reasonable for someone in her situation isn't relevant: that behavior isn't engaging and it doesn't inspire any confidence in her prospects for growth.

She betrayed her family, she stands only for self-preservation, has never once pursued nor shown interest in pursuing Justice. Insofar as she seizes any agency at all, she deploys it almost exclusively to lying for her own sake. Did she ever once defy Littlefinger? She's too meek to even explore the boundaries of their relationship. She just accepts everything that happens to her. She only makes "moves" under pressure, never sets things up for herself.

Which, ok, maybe that's what "ordinary" eleven year olds do. But here's a story about extraordinary kids.
Like fine, I basically hope she doesn't suffer severe traumas, but I certainly don't root for her to come into a position of power or leadership: I have no reason to think she can handle it.
 
J

JeffZero

Purple Drazi
Speevy said:
If you were writing the finale, what would you do to make season 6 start off right?
Click to expand...

Cool question.

Leave Jon's fate up in the air (but with interesting cinematic touches to clue people in that something is up) and cold-open his resurrection. That scene leading into the credits would be aces.

Beyond that, I couldn't say. I'm very much on the side of rushing Daenerys to Westeros, but at this point I'm not sure there's any line of dialogue available that would possibly get viewers to believe she's on her way. There's a real disillusion on that front. So perhaps the idea of having her land in Dorne in 5x10 does hold weight, crazy as it sounds. Nothing says it as well as showing it.

I definitely don't recommend leaving the Battle of Winterfell totally open for S6. Something would need to happen there. But a ridiculously thrilling 6x01 could still feature things like the fall of Roose while 5x10 does enough to leave people feeling "good."
 
C

Chance Hale

Member
Lothar said:
It was always heavily foreshadowed. It's the doing it with no hesitation that makes no sense. As soon as Ramsay attacks, he sends Davos to the wall immediately. He couldn't wait one more day to see if the storm clears. He couldn't wait to see if Davos brings back supplies from the Wall. He couldn't wait just to think about the biggest decision he'll make in his life.

The situation doesn't even seem as bad as it does in the books where his men are so hungry they're actually eating people. Even then he refuses to burn non-believers, and tells people in case he dies to crown Shireen.
Click to expand...
It's still a rushed decision in the show(that could have benefited from 30 seconds of extra footage of poor conditions) but the show makes Stannis seem much less apprehensive of the burnings in the first place. Just interested to see rewatch their early scenes with knowledge of what's coming given it's something I never expected to deviate from in the first place. Hoping that it'll lead me to believe that the Stannis of the tv show is just a different character rather than a less interesting one.
 
P

Pyramid head

Banned
Lothar said:
The situation doesn't even seem as bad as it does in the books where his men are so hungry they're actually eating people. Even then he refuses to burn non-believers, and tells people in case he dies to crown Shireen.
Click to expand...
The best part is that Davos can make it from wherever they are, back to the wall, then back to their camp again in a few days.
So they're like 2 days away from the wall at most. So they've either just been sitting there for weeks/months not touching their supplies and starving, or it's only been a few days and Stannis's men just starve really fast.

Show Stannis is a moron.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
There's a scene from last year that George R.R. Martin wrote in which Ramsay introduces Reek to his father. He has Theon shave him to show how Theon is no longer the same man. Locke is sent on a mission to kill the remaining Starks north of the wall.

Then there's the infamous dog scene with Yara.

Then there's the giving Theon a bath scene.

There's also the tricking of the ironborn at Moat Cailin.

Then finally there's the making Ramsay a Bolton scene.


I'm sure you remember these scenes, but all of them have a common element. All but one of them is based on how some other character or house reacts to the Boltons.

The showrunners do not trust the Boltons to narrate their own story, and they apparently don't think new northerners are worth the trouble.

Sansa is in Winterfell to provide a point of view for what's at stake in the battle of Winterfell.

The battle of the Blackwater was interesting because it presented the viewer with some conflicting possibilities.

A Stannis victory meant that the following villainous characters could die

-Joffrey
-Cersei
-The Hound
-Meryn Trant


It would also likely mean the end of

-Tyrion
-Shae
-Bronn
-Possibly Sansa


What I'm getting at is that the showrunners wanted to use Sansa as a storytelling device for Winterfell. She is what's at stake. She is what all these characters, from Stannis and Brienne to possibly Littlefinger are converging upon. She is the one being tortured. To have her happy in Winterfell makes no sense because then we'd have to root for Ramsay and Roose against Stannis.


They knew that just having Stannis attack Winterfell is not a high stakes affair since all we want to see is Roose/Ramsay dead. That's all we care about.
 
B

Brakke

Banned
Just finished the chapter where Arya gets sent out to become Cat of the Canals. Man. A full Arya training season would be cool as shit. Every episode a new name, exploring a new aspect of Braavos. Like a procedural but also with a thread through line, like she keeps encountering the skinny man and killing him is the final ep.

Man. How great could that be.

MAN.
 
L

Lothar

Banned
Brakke said:
"Sansa behaves like an eleven year old realistically would!" is so so milquetoast. Sansa is useless because she doesn't have goals or desires or dreams. She just exists. Whether or not her behavior is reasonable for someone in her situation isn't relevant: that behavior isn't engaging and it doesn't inspire any confidence in her prospects for growth.

She betrayed her family, she stands only for self-preservation, has never once pursued nor shown interest in pursuing Justice. Insofar as she seizes any agency at all, she deploys it almost exclusively to lying for her own sake. Did she ever once defy Littlefinger? She's too meek to even explore the boundaries of their relationship. She just accepts everything that happens to her. She only makes "moves" under pressure, never sets things up for herself.

Which, ok, maybe that's what "ordinary" eleven year olds do. But here's a story about extraordinary kids.
Like fine, I basically hope she doesn't suffer severe traumas, but I certainly don't root for her to come into a position of power or leadership: I have no reason to think she can handle it.
Click to expand...

I was just wondering where the hate came from. I can see if you're not a fan of hers. She didn't betray her family on purpose. She complained to her boyfriend's mom that her dad wanted to send her home. Typical teenager. I'm glad she never at any point blamed herself. She was a child and had no clue what the hell was going on. She doesn't deserve to feel guilty for it. :)

Her story right now is she is learning from Littlefinger, watching him scheme, and understanding what he does, so she's becoming smarter. He's grooming her for a position of power. Whenever she gets it, and she's on her way, he'll continue to coach her. That's how she'll handle it. Then hopefully as she gets older and keeps getting smarter, she'll realize what LF is and turn against him. Maybe killing Robin will be a turning point. Yeah, she's still meek. It's a contrast to Arya. I'm rooting for her to stop being meek just like I'm rooting for Arya to get her humanity back.
 
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