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[Speevy]

I think the show has portrayed the Unsullied as men who were trained from birth to fight, but that were still untested in actual battles.

If anything, the scene in which Daario tells Grey Worm about fear and hiding kind of leads into this episode, since only a brave fool would rush into a dark area to pursue someone without seeing that person (or persons).

I'd like to think the entire purpose of the harpies is to terrorize the city, so they must by necessity become better at killing unsullied.

It's obvious that the scene rubbed a lot of people the wrong way so I won't call it a good scene, but I don't think it destroyed the credibility of Dany's soldiers or Barristan Selmy.

Now, having them die in battle is a lot more noble than getting dysentery or something.

 

[-griffy-]

The episode ended on a cliffhanger, with both Barriston and Grey Worm passing out. It wasn't clear whether Barriston or Grey Worm survived the episode, since that was the point of the cliffhanger. The outcome will be revealed next week, but it was spoiled by the preview and the EW interview. Not to mention that the whole thing was kind of ruined by rumor/speculation/spoiling from EW earlier in the season with their hints.

 

[Jigorath]

I don't get why anyone would care too much about Selmy's death in the show. He never did anything in aside from that one time he told Joffrey off.

 

[Vyer]

Yes. The Battle of Qohor. They wound up winning against Dothraki riders outnumbered more than 8 to 1, mainly because they refused to break formation and they kept forcing Temmo's men to ride into their spears/shields.

But hey- a few thugs in an alley with daggers. Whole different deal. Time to hit the panic button, Jack.

Do you remember what episode this was mentioned in? Would be easier than digging through.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

I think the show has portrayed the Unsullied as men who were trained from birth to fight, but that were still untested in actual battles.

When and where did the show give you such an impression prior to last night?

 

[The Albatross]

The episode ended on a cliffhanger, with both Barriston and Grey Worm passing out. It wasn't clear whether Barriston or Grey Worm survived the episode, since that was the point of the cliffhanger. The outcome will be revealed next week, but it was spoiled by the preview and the EW interview. Not to mention that the whole thing was kind of ruined by rumor/speculation/spoiling from EW earlier in the season with their hints.

Yep. If I hadn't seen the preview, I would have thought he survived. I actually thought he survived after the episode, said to my fiance, "Nah, he's not dead, he's one of the best swordsmen alive..." and then he's saved from having his throat slit, and I thought "well that's that, hurt but alive." Then he keels over.. and I'm like "still."

And then the preview came on right after the show and I was like "FU he's dead!?" Thinking to myself, former head of the kings guard, one of the greatest knights in all of Westeros, is cut down by a faceless horde. Wut.

 

[Speevy]

When and where did the show give you such an impression prior to last night?

The unsullied are untested so you should blood them early. Untested means they have no battle experience, only training. They're also referred to as "half-trained boys" on the show.

To my knowledge the Unsullied have yet to even use their skills as a single unit.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Do you remember what episode this was mentioned in? Would be easier than digging through.

Jorah tells Dany the story of the Battle of Qohor in ASOS.

 

[Dysun]

TV unsullied and their captain, plus the best knight in 100 years being bested by slaves/slave owners with knives in a corridor where numbers can be mitigated

 

[Lothar]

I think some of you are bringing in the books when you exclaim how much the show 'built up' Selmy.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

See the length of that beard now

He's gone old and slow

 

[NeoGiff]

The episode ended on a cliffhanger, with both Barriston and Grey Worm passing out. It wasn't clear whether Barriston or Grey Worm survived the episode, since that was the point of the cliffhanger. The outcome will be revealed next week, but it was spoiled by the preview and the EW interview. Not to mention that the whole thing was kind of ruined by rumor/speculation/spoiling from EW earlier in the season with their hints.

I'm as eager as any to call out EW on their flippancy regarding spoilers (the Stoneheart instance was ridiculous), but I won't this time.

The viewer was supposed to be clear by the end of this episode that Barristan was dead. Operating under this assumption, EW released their interview, and the preview also references it.

It wasn't supposed to be ambiguous - the director/writer just completely botched the scene.

Now, to be fair, I do have a slightly lopsided view of the situation since I've known for months that Barristan definitively dies, so I didn't have the pleasure of experiencing the scene with a fresh take. I knew the scene was building up to his death.

But still, that doesn't change the fact that it's a massive fuck up on behalf of the production.

 

[Speevy]

I really don't think he went out that meekly. Someone kicked him and he was fighting off-balance against three men when one of them stabbed him.

 

[Massa]

Poor Kraznys. Didn't want to sell children and untrained Unsullied to Dany over fears of bad PR and what do you know, he was 100% correct.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

The unsullied are untested so you should blood them early. Untested means they have no battle experience, only training. They're also referred to as "half-trained boys" on the show.

To my knowledge the Unsullied have yet to even use their skills as a single unit.

So what you're saying is that, in the show, (obviously not the books) the Unsullied that Dany "bought" are basically worthless. That they'll panic and break ranks at the first sign of a fight, that they do, indeed, feel pain and fear, and that the show runners waited two full seasons to show this to us? I'm not sure which is worse, that, or this being just another instance of the showrunners writing towards a tentpole and forgetting previously established paradigms along the way.

 

[Joni]

Stannis seems like the best father in the show.

 

[Kain]

sigh

 

[Speevy]

So what you're saying is that, in the show, (obviously not the books) the Unsullied that Dany "bought" are basically worthless. That they'll panic and break ranks at the first sign of a fight, that they do, indeed, feel pain and fear, and that the show runners waited two full seasons to show this to us?

No, I'm saying that despite what is said about them in the first scene, they are human beings rather than elite fighting robots.

I did not mind 30 men killing 7, given the circumstances. Now if they had been in a fair fight, that would be a different story.

 

[Speevy]

This is just silly. Selmy saved Grey Worm's life, not the other way around. He killed more men than Grey Worm did, including the ones guarding the entrance.

 

[Rixxan]

yeah that tumblr image is a massive fail imo

dude ripped a ton of them up, it was like 1 on 15

dont care how good you are numbers are numbers

and he is well past is prime on top of it

still, shame we'll never see the Kingbreaker chapter from ADWD play out

 

[Vyer]

Jorah tells Dany the story of the Battle of Qohor in ASOS.

So nothing in the show about that, then?

.

Yeah, I remember them talking a few times about how good he was, but they never even had him fight. Most of that seemed like tales of him in his day. (Hence the 'even now')

As it stands he was heavily outnumbered, kicked some ass, and was overcome. Don't really have a problem with that really.

Image is kinda dumb, honestly.

 

[TheNamesPlissken]

Soooo... Based on book speculation + this episode! I'm pretty sure the following will happen.
1) Jon gets stabbed
2) Melisandre revives him by...
3) burning shireen :-(
Not as solid speculation:
4) Stannis comes back
5) Stannis drives lightbringer through the heart of Melisandre
6) lightbringer actually becomes lightbringer?

Actually, maybe it makes more sense for Jon to stab melisandre after being resurrected and finding out it was via shireen, it fits the prophecy a little cleaner. His sword becomes lightbringer. Actually, time wise might even make more sense if all this goes down while Stannis is retaking winterfell in the books.

 

[Partition]

If they TOUCH Shireen especially after last nights ep I may need to take a break from this show tbqfh

 

[foxtrot3d]

So nothing in the show about that, then?

They do mention it in the DVD extras, the lore and history shorts.

Anywho, on another topic why has no one at the Wall, specifically the Mannis and Melisandre, talked about the WW? Like the whole reason he came there was to fight them and save the realm and now Mel is apparently marching South with Stannis, the fuck? I know the show doesn't give fuck all about prophecy but I was really looking forward to that scene where Stannis goes in front of the NW and tells them they must suffer him to face the true threat, whipping out Lightbringer while Melisandre speaks about the upcoming battle. At which point Maester Aemon is all like, you talkin bout the Dawn War, well where the hell is the Prince Who Was Promised? And Mel is all like, right here you blind fool, Stannis the Mannis Baratheon, check out that magical sword.

So like fine, the show has omitted proper Lightbringer but could we still at least get that gist of that scene?

 

[mre]

I really don't think he went out that meekly. Someone kicked him and he was fighting off-balance against three men when one of them stabbed him.

I agree. If Selmy had his armor on, he most likely would have finished off all of the harpies himself. Without it, though, the sheer numbers he was facing made it likely that one would get a lucky shot in.

 

[Real Hero]

Barristan could have well just not existed in the show. That's the main problem. They obviously included him then changed their mind about the meereen story and thought fuck it lets kill that bit of baggage.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

No, I'm saying that despite what is said about them in the first scene, they are human beings rather than elite fighting robots.

Then, they're not Unsullied. If the rest of Dany's Unsullied army are as undisciplined and prone to panic as the unit we saw last night, she'd better hope they never have to fight in actual open battle against a well armed and well trained opponent. They'd get absolutely massacred.

So nothing in the show about that, then?

I don't think anyone said anything about it being in the show, did they?

 

[Cornballer]

Offing Shireen seems cruel even by this series' standards. I wouldn't be surprised to see her spirited away with Sam and Gilly if they end up heading to Oldtown. They did have a scene together a few episodes ago.

 

[hipsterpants]

I wonder if that interview with Carice about Melisandre becoming more human/emotional is a reference to how she'll react when Stannis' wife burns Shireen in the edgiest scene in GoT history.

 

[-griffy-]

I'm as eager as any to call out EW on their flippancy regarding spoilers (the Stoneheart instance was ridiculous), but I won't this time.

The viewer was supposed to be clear by the end of this episode that Barristan was dead. Operating under this assumption, EW released their interview, and the preview also references it.

It wasn't supposed to be ambiguous - the director/writer just completely botched the scene.

Now, to be fair, I do have a slightly lopsided view of the situation since I've known for months that Barristan definitively dies, so I didn't have the pleasure of experiencing the scene with a fresh take. I knew the scene was building up to his death.

But still, that doesn't change the fact that it's a massive fuck up on behalf of the production.

The episode ended completely with the possibility that we just witnessed both of them die. Like, that seemed the entire point of ending it there. "Oh shit, did they just die?" The fact they decided to fully reveal the fate of one of the characters immediately after the episode airs instead of waiting until next week to make it clear is their decision I guess. I don't see how that's a massive fuck up on behalf of the production, but okay.

 

[Vyer]

.

I don't think anyone said anything about it being in the show, did they?

Uh, that kind of matters?

 

[Partition]

Why does Mellisandre have to "offer" someone for ressurection anyway? If I recall there was no one sacrificed to bring back Beric in season3.

 

[bishopcruz]

One thing, is it me or are reviewers not seeing the downturn in quality this season? I mean I can accept even the majority not noticing, but I mean, none of the main ones seem to care. This for example, was a mess of an episode, the sand snakes were horrible, the Jamie stuff is well acted but still makes no sense, the writing and plotting just isn't as sharp as it used to be. I mean this show has issues, always has had some but this is the season where it seems to have turned a corner in being kinda schlocky. It's like D&D want stuff to happen, but don't care how or more importantly why it does.

LIttlefinger's plan makes no sense, none. Dorne has been wasted, thuis far. Stannis and the wall are good, but King's Landing is so on the nose it isn't even funny. Complex situations aren't even hinted at.

It still has great acting and production values, but reviewers seem to be scared to rate any episode below a B+ for this series.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Offing Shireen seems cruel even by this series' standards. I wouldn't be surprised to see her spirited away with Sam and Gilly if they end up heading to Oldtown. They did have a scene together a few episodes ago.

I think Oldtown is gone for good, after all we saw Sam acting sort of like Jon's Maester/Adviser in this episode and the next episode is titled "Kill the Boy." From the show's perspective Sam is a Maester in all but title and Aemon will die by next episode from old age, probably giving Jon his "Kill the boy" speech on his deathbed. Oldtown shenanigans are too complicated to convey to the show.

 

[glaw52]

Offing Shireen seems cruel even by this series' standards. I wouldn't be surprised to see her spirited away with Sam and Gilly if they end up heading to Oldtown. They did have a scene together a few episodes ago.

That sound like a much better decision. I don't know if I could watch her being burned.

Edit: Although it does seem like they will scratch Oldtown.

 

[Laconic]

Offing Shireen seems cruel even by this series' standards. I wouldn't be surprised to see her spirited away with Sam and Gilly if they end up heading to Oldtown. They did have a scene together a few episodes ago.

...you mean by the "Stab a fetus" standards?

Or by the "Cleave a butcher's boy in twain" standard?

Or just by the jovial "Cut off his head, and sew his wolf's in its place" mellow standards?

 

[Real Hero]

It still has great acting and production values, but reviewers seem to be scared to rate any episode below a B+ for this series.

There's a critical consensus that any deviation from the books is inherently good.

 

[NeoGiff]

The episode ended completely with the possibility that we just witnessed both of them die. Like, that seemed the entire point of ending it there. "Oh shit, did they just die?" The fact they decided to fully reveal the fate of one of the characters immediately after the episode airs instead of waiting until next week to make it clear is their decision I guess. I don't see how that's a massive fuck up on behalf of the production, but okay.

No, you misunderstood what I meant. I'll put it this way:

The show wants us to know that at least Barristan is 100% dead at the end of the episode.

It was extremely unclear onscreen and as filmed, so yes, it's a fuck up on behalf of the production.

Edit: I hate to beat a dead horse, but think of it as a lesser version of Jaime raping Cersei last year. What the viewers saw was completely different than the apparent intention behind the scene.

 

[duckroll]

Offing Shireen seems cruel even by this series' standards. I wouldn't be surprised to see her spirited away with Sam and Gilly if they end up heading to Oldtown. They did have a scene together a few episodes ago.

Are they even doing the Oldtown thing? It seems like they haven't really set any of that up in the show. We've hardly seen Aemon this season, and he hasn't had any scenes with Jon or Sam to suggest they're going in that direciton. I'm actually expecting him to just die at the Wall rather than at sea.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Danys unsullied are completely untested. As far as the show is concerned they've never been in a major battle.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Uh, that kind of matters?

In what way? Someone asked a question about the Battle of Qohor. I answered it. Neither he nor I mentioned anything about it being or not being in the show.

 

[Vyer]

In what way? Someone asked a question about the Battle of Qohor. I answered it. Neither he nor I mentioned anything about it being or not being in the show.

Come on. You used it as a criticism of their actions in a scene on the show. Quit being disingenuous.

 

[-griffy-]

One thing, is it me or are reviewers not seeing the downturn in quality this season? I mean I can accept even the majority not noticing, but I mean, none of the main ones seem to care. This for example, was a mess of an episode, the sand snakes were horrible, the Jamie stuff is well acted but still makes no sense, the writing and plotting just isn't as sharp as it used to be. I mean this show has issues, always has had some but this is the season where it seems to have turned a corner in being kinda schlocky. It's like D&D want stuff to happen, but don't care how or more importantly why it does.

LIttlefinger's plan makes no sense, none. Dorne has been wasted, thuis far. Stannis and the wall are good, but King's Landing is so on the nose it isn't even funny. Complex situations aren't even hinted at.

It still has great acting and production values, but reviewers seem to be scared to rate any episode below a B+ for this series.

Maybe it's difference of opinion? Maybe they actually do think the show is as good as, or better, than it ever has been? Maybe they are viewing the show as a TV show on its own merits, since that is their job, more than they are a direct comparison to the book on a scene-by-scene basis? Maybe it's possible to think the Sand Snakes were completely inoffensive in their one single scene and not the worst fucking thing ever? Maybe they don't just immediately right off any changes to the book because they didn't read the books and therefore don't care that things are different? Maybe it's possible to see that the writers seem to be so completely aware of how some might view the new storylines with Littlefinger/Sansa and Jaime/Dorne that they actually have the characters voice and address many of the complaints/worries people have had about the idea of the stories for months now and actually justify the character's actions and thoughts in fiction but people seem to completely ignore that and complain anyways?

No, you misunderstood what I meant. I'll put it this way:

The show wants us to know that at least Barristan is 100% dead at the end of the episode.

It was extremely unclear onscreen and as filmed, so yes, it's a fuck up on behalf of the production.

Edit: I hate to beat a dead horse, but think of it as a lesser version of Jaime raping Cersei last year. What the viewers saw was completely different than the apparent intention behind the scene.

So your barometer for "massive production fuck up" is they meant for a character to be seen as 100% dead instead of there's a completely real possibility that we just saw the character's death. Got it. This show really has an uphill battle against some viewers.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Danys unsullied are completely untested. As far as the show is concerned they've never been in a major battle.

https://youtu.be/0Kyh-lJIop4?t=185

Not that it really matters. The fact that they survived the training means they're Unsullied and ready for battle. There's never been one hint dropped that they're prone to panic and break ranks prior to last night. I think some of you are just bound and determined to defend anything that happens on the show at all costs.

 

[Cornballer]

Are they even doing the Oldtown thing? It seems like they haven't really set any of that up in the show. We've hardly seen Aemon this season, and he hasn't had any scenes with Jon or Sam to suggest they're going in that direciton. I'm actually expecting him to just die at the Wall rather than at sea.

I think Oldtown is gone for good, after all we saw Sam acting sort of like Jon's Maester/Adviser in this episode and the next episode is titled "Kill the Boy." From the show's perspective Sam is a Maester in all but title and Aemon will die by next episode from old age, probably giving Jon his "Kill the boy" speech on his deathbed. Oldtown shenanigans are too complicated to convey to the show.

Ah, sounds like they might just get rid of that for time constraints/over complication reasons. I just thought there was probably a reason why they set up that scene with Shireen, Gilly, and Sam hanging together with her mother chastising her for doing so. Maybe they just wanted more development for Shireen.

 

[Zolo]

I haven't read recent reviews, but weren't the Sand Snakes one of the more common complaints in the reviews before the season started?

 

[NeoGiff]

So your barometer for "massive production fuck up" is they meant for a character to be seen as 100% dead instead of there's a completely real possibility that we just saw the character's death. Got it. This show really has an uphill battle against some viewers.

Oh yeah, I'm a prime example of an unsatisfied viewer, didn't you know? I hate the show!

 

[duckroll]

Actually, thinking about what this new season has oddly overemphasized so far, they might have bigger plans for Shireen. They spent a number of scenes this week on getting people up to speed on R+L, but I've also noticed that in the last two episodes they've started seeding the concept of the Stone Men for viewers. There's probably a reason for that. Shireen is also getting more scenes than usual. So there might be something they're setting up.

 

[Vyer]

Sand Snakes as a whole didn't really work for me. Scene felt awkward. Hopefully they work better going forward.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Maybe it's difference of opinion? Maybe they actually do think the show is as good as, or better, than it ever has been? Maybe they are viewing the show as a TV show on its own merits, since that is their job, more than they are a direct comparison to the book on a scene-by-scene basis? Maybe it's possible to think the Sand Snakes were completely inoffensive in their one single scene and not the worst fucking thing ever? Maybe they don't just immediately right off any changes to the book because they didn't read the books and therefore don't care that things are different? Maybe it's possible to see that the writers seem to be so completely aware of how some might view the new storylines with Littlefinger/Sansa and Jaime/Dorne that they actually have the characters voice and address many of the complaints/worries people have had about the idea of the stories for months now and actually justify the character's actions and thoughts in fiction but people seem to completely ignore that and complain anyways?

So your barometer for "massive production fuck up" is they meant for a character to be seen as 100% dead instead of there's a completely real possibility that we just saw the character's death. Got it. This show really has an uphill battle against some viewers.

.