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[The Albatross]

Sand Snakes was one of the worst scenes in the entire series.

1) Characters that most people probably don't understand
2) Talking about characters that most people don't know or forget
3) With stupid dialogue
4) In a stupid set ... like ... just a desert with a small covering. What are they doing there?
5) With a stupid climax

 

[suzu]

I mean, it's not like book people are the only viewers complaining about the end scene from this episode. It wasn't executed that well either.

 

[pantsmith]

Soooo... Based on book speculation + this episode! I'm pretty sure the following will happen.
1) Jon gets stabbed
2) Melisandre revives him by...
3) burning shireen :-(
Not as solid speculation:
4) Stannis comes back
5) Stannis drives lightbringer through the heart of Melisandre
6) lightbringer actually becomes lightbringer?

Actually, maybe it makes more sense for Jon to stab melisandre after being resurrected and finding out it was via shireen, it fits the prophecy a little cleaner. His sword becomes lightbringer. Actually, time wise might even make more sense if all this goes down while Stannis is retaking winterfell in the books.

Melisandre loses Stannis if she burns Shireen. It's not a wise move for anyone.

Now, who has king's blood, is up North, and has a desperate need to redeem himself? I think that's Theon, personally.

 

[John Rabbit]

One thing, is it me or are reviewers not seeing the downturn in quality this season? I mean I can accept even the majority not noticing, but I mean, none of the main ones seem to care. This for example, was a mess of an episode, the sand snakes were horrible, the Jamie stuff is well acted but still makes no sense, the writing and plotting just isn't as sharp as it used to be. I mean this show has issues, always has had some but this is the season where it seems to have turned a corner in being kinda schlocky. It's like D&D want stuff to happen, but don't care how or more importantly why it does.

LIttlefinger's plan makes no sense, none. Dorne has been wasted, thuis far. Stannis and the wall are good, but King's Landing is so on the nose it isn't even funny. Complex situations aren't even hinted at.

It still has great acting and production values, but reviewers seem to be scared to rate any episode below a B+ for this series.

100% with you on this. having gone from literally re-watching seasons 1-4 straight into season 5, the wheels are really starting to fall off. character motivations are muddled or non-existent (its COMPLETELY unclear why Cersei reinstates the Faith Militant other than at some point she has to walk the streets naked later this season), everyone just happens to be where they need to be in order to maximize the economy of characters/actors on the show, and everything is being told in these pointless 5-minute chunks.

i don't even really care that they're so far off from the books, i much prefer it in fact, but even within it's own internal logic the show is really starting to fall apart.

i mean, it's pretty much 100% that Euron/Kingsmoot stuff is just never happening at this point, right?

 

[foxtrot3d]

Ah, sounds like they might just get rid of that for time constraints/over complication reasons. I just thought there was probably a reason why they set up that scene with Shireen, Gilly, and Sam hanging together with her mother chastising her for doing so. Maybe they just wanted more development for Shireen.

Well, I don't think you're completely off about Sam and Gilly leaving the Wall I just dunno if they'll take Shireen with them. If Jon gets stabbed by the NW this season then the Wall isn't going to be a safe place for Sam or Gilly so they are gonna have to bail out somehow. I just can't figure how'd they be able to steal Shireen away or where they would go.

 

[Partition]

One thing, is it me or are reviewers not seeing the downturn in quality this season? I mean I can accept even the majority not noticing, but I mean, none of the main ones seem to care. This for example, was a mess of an episode, the sand snakes were horrible, the Jamie stuff is well acted but still makes no sense, the writing and plotting just isn't as sharp as it used to be. I mean this show has issues, always has had some but this is the season where it seems to have turned a corner in being kinda schlocky. It's like D&D want stuff to happen, but don't care how or more importantly why it does.

LIttlefinger's plan makes no sense, none. Dorne has been wasted, thuis far. Stannis and the wall are good, but King's Landing is so on the nose it isn't even funny. Complex situations aren't even hinted at.

It still has great acting and production values, but reviewers seem to be scared to rate any episode below a B+ for this series.

Honestly all the issues you have seem to stem from book changes or cuts. This was a good episode.

D&D aren't the best at original content at times, but every time they disappoint it's a scene like the Stannis and Shireen one (one of my favorite in the series) that makes up for it completely. Or the Arya & Tywin scenes.

The Sand Snakes were cheesy but really not all that different from their book counterparts (Obara had lines ripped straight from the books, no?) outside appearance. It wasn't the best scene but it's hard to get a feel for them with just that alone.

I actually like the Jaime in Dorne plot so far. The scene with him on the ship was nicely shot, and the beachy area is a cool change of location. Jaime using his gold hand to kill that guy was clever too. Regardless, Jaime's rescue mission at least makes more sense than Sansa marrying Ramsay.

The worst scene this episode was definitely the Harpy fight, not because Barristan died (he has never been enough of a force on the show to begin with) but because of how it was shot and the choreography of it all. The last few moments lowkey reminded me of Talia dying in TDKR too which isn't a good thing.

Nonetheless, the quality of the show really doesn't appear to be taking any major hits. It's sloppier than usual at times (to be expected with lack of compelling book material / running out of book material) but just as exciting as ever. And i'll take exciting over awful Season 2 any day.

 

[Cpt.Underpants]

Melisandre loses Stannis if she burns Shireen. It's not a wise move for anyone.

Now, who has king's blood, is up North, and has a desperate need to redeem himself? I think that's Theon, personally.

Aemon seems a good candidate for Melly to roast besides from Theon and Shireen. Though I'm really not down for Melly to burn all three characters

 

[ryseing]

One thing, is it me or are reviewers not seeing the downturn in quality this season? I mean I can accept even the majority not noticing, but I mean, none of the main ones seem to care. This for example, was a mess of an episode, the sand snakes were horrible, the Jamie stuff is well acted but still makes no sense, the writing and plotting just isn't as sharp as it used to be. I mean this show has issues, always has had some but this is the season where it seems to have turned a corner in being kinda schlocky. It's like D&D want stuff to happen, but don't care how or more importantly why it does.

LIttlefinger's plan makes no sense, none. Dorne has been wasted, thuis far. Stannis and the wall are good, but King's Landing is so on the nose it isn't even funny. Complex situations aren't even hinted at.

It still has great acting and production values, but reviewers seem to be scared to rate any episode below a B+ for this series.

Greenwald, who I normally respect the hell out of, called this last episode one of the best the show has done.

I don't see it. Way too many issue and inconsistencies.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Come on. You used it as a criticism of their actions in a scene on the show. Quit being disingenuous.

I didn't bring the Battle of Qohor up, someone else did. As for my criticisms of the show's handling of the Unsullied in last night's episode, that's based on the show's characterization of them from Season 3. Doesn't line up with what we saw last night. At all. Obviously it doesn't line up with the books, but that's the smaller deal of the two.

The Unsullied we saw last night, which were Grey Worm's own unit, BTW, were nothing like what we were shown and told about in Season 3. They would be absolutely useless in open battle.

 

[bishopcruz]

There's a critical consensus that any deviation from the books is inherently good.

It just seems silly. Changes from the book haven't really bothered me much before. But this season the writing just seems lazy. Changes aren't inherently good or inherently bad, but the continuity this season is pretty damned bad.

Maybe it's difference of opinion? Maybe they actually do think the show is as good as, or better, than it ever has been? Maybe they are viewing the show as a TV show on its own merits, since that is their job, more than they are a direct comparison to the book on a scene-by-scene basis? Maybe it's possible to think the Sand Snakes were completely inoffensive in their one single scene and not the worst fucking thing ever? Maybe they don't just immediately right off any changes to the book because they didn't read the books and therefore don't care that things are different? Maybe it's possible to see that the writers seem to be so completely aware of how some might view the new storylines with Littlefinger/Sansa and Jaime/Dorne that they actually have the characters voice and address many of the complaints/worries people have had about the idea of the stories for months now and actually justify the character's actions and thoughts in fiction but people seem to completely ignore that and complain anyways?

Maybe one doesn't need to be snarky? I account for differences of opinion, I am quite surprised that none of the regular reviewers share the opinion when generally speaking I have agreed with many of them in the past. I am FAR from a book purist, but the show has problems within its OWN continuity at this point.

 

[Brakke]

I don't even remember how the show has presented the Unsullied (as far as 'feel no pain'/'Spartans', etc) or the Sons for that matter. Need to go back and re watch.

That one dude got his nip sliced off when Dany first encountered the Unsullied. Definitely since Meereen the show has been working on introducing the Unsullied as humans, not just battle robots. But I don't think they emphasized the battle robot aspect enough first. Dude going to the brothel should be weird not just because he's castrated but also because he's an unfeeling unflinching total motherfucker.

Killing Unsullied in the show was fine, they needed to raise the stakes on the Sons of the Harpy so of course you have them kill a bunch of the Queen's people. Too bad the mercenary companies aren't really part of the show, it'd've been better to kill a bunch of them. Put some tension up between Daario and Kelly C.

Actually, thinking about what this new season has oddly overemphasized so far, they might have bigger plans for Shireen. They spent a number of scenes this week on getting people up to speed on R+L, but I've also noticed that in the last two episodes they've started seeding the concept of the Stone Men for viewers. There's probably a reason for that. Shireen is also getting more scenes than usual. So there might be something they're setting up.

They've mentioned Greyscale every episode so far. They're probably ditching Dragons Vs Others Final Battle in exchange for a Greyscale plague just wiping out everybody everywhere the end.

 

[Brakke]

I actually like the Jaime in Dorne plot so far. The scene with him on the ship was nicely shot, and the beachy area is a cool change of location. Jaime using his gold hand to kill that guy was clever too. Regardless, Jaime's rescue mission at least makes more sense than Sansa marrying Ramsay.

Yeh I liked how Jaime surprised the other guy and also himself with that move. Also trying to dislodge the sword from his hand afterward was a cute little moment.

 

[Zabka]

4) In a stupid set ... like ... just a desert with a small covering. What are they doing there?

They were torturing that guy in a secluded spot.

 

[Vyer]

I didn't bring the Battle of Qohor up, someone else did. As for my criticisms of the show's handling of the Unsullied in last night's episode, that's based on the show's characterization of them from Season 3. Doesn't line up with what we saw last night. At all. Obviously it doesn't line up with the books, but that's the smaller deal of the two.

This:

Yes. The Battle of Qohor. They wound up winning against Dothraki riders outnumbered more than 8 to 1, mainly because they refused to break formation and they kept forcing Temmo's men to ride into their spears/shields.

But hey- a few thugs in an alley with daggers. Whole different deal. Time to hit the panic button, Jack.

To me sounds a lot more like it's based on the way they are presented in the book. You're using that battle as a criticism of their actions in a scene in the show.

As Brakke mentioned, we've even seen the Unsullied in the brothels, one just desperate for a human touch. I honestly couldn't remember just how much like the 'unfeeling Spartans' of the book the show has brought in, which is why I said I need to go rewatch. so that may definitely be the case compared to S3.

 

[Speevy]

I think this season is better for the lack of Bran Stark and the fact that we don't have to swap out characters every week.

The biggest problem this show ever had was having too many characters, so you rotate from characters you like to those you don't week to week.

Now they're condensed, which is better.

I also think it's excellent how they've combined Stannis, Brienne, Jon, Roose, Littlefinger, and Sansa into one storyline that is separate but connected.

If this season is worse, it's for not having events as big as the red or purple wedding left. But whose fault is that?

 

[MiamiWesker]

To me the issue with the death scene yesterday is that filming it as a cliffhanger or ambiguous robs the audience of the proper emotion. I was tense all through the fight, I though we were going to get a big death then grey worm saves Selmy and I feel relief and a sense that it was simply a close call. I missed the preview, if I had waited till next week and saw him dead my reaction would have been confusion, not shock or anger or sadness; simply me wondering what the hell happened. Don't be ambiguous with that kind of stuff it hurts the emotions of a scene.

 

[John Rabbit]

I think this season is better for the lack of Bran Stark and the fact that we don't have to swap out characters every week.

The biggest problem this show ever had was having too many characters, so you rotate from characters you like to those you don't week to week.

except Brienne/Pod, Ramsay/Theon, and Arya made zero appearance in last night's episode.

 

[Speevy]

I think everyone expected Grey Worm to die and would have been fine with the scene if that was all that happened.

Imagine the same scene, but Barristan wipes the floor with everyone.

The showrunners were going for a character you'd miss, and they chose Barristan.

 

[pantsmith]

This:


To me sounds a lot more like it's based on the way they are presented in the book. You're using that battle as a criticism of their actions in a scene in the show.

As Brakke mentioned, we've even seen the Unsullied in the brothels, one just desperate for a human touch. I honestly couldn't remember just how much like the 'unfeeling Spartans' of the book the show has brought in, which is why I said I need to go rewatch. so that may definitely be the case compared to S3.

Even still, the implication from everything we've seen so far is that the Unsullied are selfless, feel no pain, and that they fight as a unit. Their unit's formation fell apart, they screamed in pain, and they lost sight of all their training. This is the unit lead by their own appointed leader.

It goes against all of the visual language and subtext used in the show so far, even if it isn't spelled out. Men with shields, spears and formation should not lose to a band of bandits with knives.

 

[Brazil]

So your barometer for "massive production fuck up" is they meant for a character to be seen as 100% dead instead of there's a completely real possibility that we just saw the character's death. Got it. This show really has an uphill battle against some viewers.

There are so many things actually wrong with that entire sequence, but the nitpicking simply has to go above and beyond.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Killing Unsullied in the show was fine, they needed to raise the stakes on the Sons of the Harpy so of course you have them kill a bunch of the Queen's people. Too bad the mercenary companies aren't really part of the show, it'd've been better to kill a bunch of them. Put some tension up between Daario and Kelly C.

I don't think the big gripe is with the fact that Unsullied were killed, at least not for me, it wasn't. It's more that they didn't behave like the Unsullied we've read about in the books and we've seen and heard about on the show for two seasons now. That, and the situation itself should have been more dire.

 

[duckroll]

Imagine if Daario didn't open his stupid mouth, and Barristan just stayed with Dany during her audience with Creepster Lord.

 

[Incandenza]

Absolutely nothing about the Sand Snakes scene makes sense. Why did they laboriously bury that dude up to his head in sand? Why is Obara telling a story that everyone there already knows? Why is the direction and editing so suddenly awkward? Why does Obara think that tossing a spear from Bozo Bucket distance is impressive?

 

[Speevy]

except Brienne/Pod, Ramsay/Theon, and Arya made zero appearance in last night's episode.

Right, but Sansa did, which is good because Brienne, Pod, Sansa, Roose, Ramsay, Stannis, Melisandre, Jon, etc. are all connected now.

That was my point. You saw Winterfell, so the Winterfell story is advancing. They didn't show Sansa and Littlefinger walking towards some tree in who cares where.

 

[Lautaro]

To me sounds a lot more like it's based on the way they are presented in the book. You're using that battle as a criticism of their actions in a scene in the show.

The Battle of Qohor is included in the DVD extras, that means is part of the TV show universe too.

I blame the Unsullied losing this fight on the writers not knowing how a phalanx actually fight. If they really wanted a good number of Unsullied to die should have used something like trapping them in a burning building or some other situation where their battle training wouldn't help them.

 

[Speevy]

Absolutely nothing about the Sand Snakes scene makes sense. Why did they laboriously bury that dude up to his head in sand? Why is Obara telling a story that everyone there already knows? Why is the direction and editing so suddenly awkward? Why does Obara think that tossing a spear from Bozo Bucket distance is impressive?

They keeeeled OHBAREEEN.


REVENGE!

 

[bodyofanamerican]

I wonder if that interview with Carice about Melisandre becoming more human/emotional is a reference to how she'll react when Stannis' wife burns Shireen in the edgiest scene in GoT history.

Joking aside, I believe that'll be next week (the edgiest scene). According to cast interviews, half way through the season there's supposed to be the much talked about "traumatic" scene with Ramsay/Sansa/Reek.

 

[duckroll]

The Battle of Qohor is included in the DVD extras, that means is part of the TV show universe too.

I blame the Unsullied losing this fight on the writers not knowing how a phalanx actually fight. If they really wanted a good number of Unsullied to die should have used something like trapping them in a burning building or some other situation where their battle training wouldn't help them.

Yeah. When they first lured them into a narrow passage, I was actually expecting someone to trigger a trap and collapse the entire structure on them or something. But no, they had the Sons of the Harpy come out, surround them and rush at them, and somehow the Unsullied lost. It's just nonsensical.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

This:

To me sounds a lot more like it's based on the way they are presented in the book. You're using that battle as a criticism of their actions in a scene in the show.

And you're ignoring half a dozen posts I'd made prior to that which mentioned nothing of that battle against the Dothraki. I've been pretty consistent throughout. What we saw last night was Grey Worm's unit panic, break formation, react to pain, and just generally fall apart. That isn't consistent with anything we've seen. Books, show: doesn't matter. They might as well have been just any random merc company.

And, if I wasn't clear enough about this before, let me be know. This is my take on all of it: the showrunners needed to build the Harpies up as a foe, and they went the cheapest route, which is to hit us with a "shocking" scene where the "good guys" lose, Barristan is killed, and Grey Worm badly, badly hurt. They're writing to a tentpole, here. They need to get from A to B, so they find a way to write themselves there. And whether because of budget or time constraints, the showrunners basically wound up needing the Unsullied to become something other than what they had been previously established to be in order to make it to their desired tentpole. It's just bad writing/direction.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Lol Is there a GAFer that majored in classical studies that can explain whether or not a phalanx would actually be good in this situation?

I think it's funny that there's a split in the viewership between folks who thought "of course the Unsullied would be screwed in this situation" and those that were baffled at how the Unsullied could possibly lose.

Obviously the show creators should have come up with a different scenario that would have had the Unsullied at a more obvious disadvantage.

 

[NeoGiff]

To me the issue with the death scene yesterday is that filming it as a cliffhanger or ambiguous robs the audience of the proper emotion. I was tense all through the fight, I though we were going to get a big death then grey worm saves Selmy and I feel relief and a sense that it was simply a close call. I missed the preview, if I had waited till next week and saw him dead my reaction would have been confusion, not shock or anger or sadness; simply me wondering what the hell happened. Don't be ambiguous with that kind of stuff it hurts the emotions of a scene.

This is exactly what I've been saying in my last few comments. It's nice to see that someone shares the sentiment. It's like if they cut to black as Ilyn Payne unsheathed Ice and raised it above his head, albeit to a much lesser extent.

 

[Speevy]

Didn't George R.R. Martin intend for the unsullied to be ineffective at policing Meereen?



That they may have filmed a poor scene is secondary to this point.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Lol Is there a GAFer that majored in classical studies that can explain whether or not a phalanx would actually be good in this situation?

I think it's funny that there's a split in the viewership between folks who thought "of course the Unsullied would be screwed in this situation" and those that were baffled at how the Unsullied could possibly lose.

Obviously the show creators should have come up with a different scenario that would have had the Unsullied at a more obvious disadvantage.

Kind of only addressing half of the gripe, though. There are a number of us who didn't think the scenario would be very dire for Unsullied, for sure. But I think the bigger gripe is more with the fact that they behaved nothing like the Unsullied that both the books and show depicted in the past. It would be like Eddard Stark doing something vile and dishonorable for no reason, or Littlefinger doing something chivalrous and selfless. It just doesn't add up.

Didn't George R.R. Martin intend for the unsullied to be ineffective at policing Meereen?

Absolutely. The show has been establishing that as well. But that has more to do with them being a blunt instrument, where policing requires a scalpel, so to speak.

 

[Enosh]

Lol Is there a GAFer that majored in classical studies that can explain whether or not a phalanx would actually be good in this situation?

I think it's funny that there's a split in the viewership between folks who thought "of course the Unsullied would be screwed in this situation" and those that were baffled at how the Unsullied could possibly lose.

Obviously the show creators should have come up with a different scenario that would have had the Unsullied at a more obvious disadvantage.

well the obvious answer is that hoplites and even latter macedonian phalangites tended to carry swords for when the formation fell apart ^^

but don't have a degree in this so someone else can probably elaborate on it more

 

[eot]

This is exactly what I've been saying in my last few comments. It's nice to see that someone shares the sentiment. It's like if they cut to black as Ilyn Payne unsheathed Ice and raised it above his head, albeit to a much lesser extent.

Or, if Jon is actually dead for real.

 

[Snake]

When I saw the season's trailers, I was really worried about Sand Snakes. The brief shots we had looked pretty damn cheesy, and I was never a big fan of them in the books anyway, so it seemed like we were heading towards a real problem.

Then I read the east coast impressions for last night's episode before I watched it, and when some people here were saying that the Sand Snakes were truly god-awful––maybe the worst scene the show has ever done––I wasn't surprised and I was really worried about them.

Then I watched the episode and it wasn't that bad at all. Not good, true enough, but not what many people here have been making them into. There's some serious groupthink going on and it's pretty funny. Heck, I'm still worried that their part of the Dorne plotline could turn out terrible, but man, lighten up folks.

 

[foxtrot3d]

*sigh*

This whole Unsullied debate is the worst type of criticism from book readers, it's so small and nitpicky. They are not invincible, they are human and their strength is in formation not one on one combat against outnumbered forces. I complain about large scale changes that destroys a characters motivations or arc, like Sansa marrying Ramsay. I'm upset that Barristan died but not because he went out "like a bitch" but because his character was underutilized and offed simply to save money and further condense the story. We can nitpick small details like Tyrion mentioning Stone Men in Valyria all day but those are minor complaints and not worth getting up in arms over.

 

[Speevy]

The Sand Snakes are going to kill Bronn and possibly Myrcella. That is their only purpose. They won't exist next season.

 

[Lothar]

So nothing in the show about that, then?



Yeah, I remember them talking a few times about how good he was, but they never even had him fight. Most of that seemed like tales of him in his day. (Hence the 'even now')

As it stands he was heavily outnumbered, kicked some ass, and was overcome. Don't really have a problem with that really.

Image is kinda dumb, honestly.

Kicked some ass is a joke. I'm glad the guy that said he could cut through five kingsguard knights like a cake actually got to kill a few random nobodies wearing robes before dying to them in his first on screen fight. He might as well not have even been on the show if he was going to be used like that. Characters telling stories about him feels like a waste of screen time now.

There's nothing dumb about the image. Building up a character like that throughout the series and then never delivering is abysmal storytelling. Everyone talks about how great he is, of course viewers are going to want to see him finally do something great. But he never did. This season was suppose to be the pay off. Barristan finally getting his time in the sun was among the best parts of ADWD.

 

[Speevy]

Kicked some ass is a joke. I'm glad the guy that said he could cut through five kingsguard knights like a cake actually got to kill a few random nobodies wearing robes before dying to them in his first on screen fight. He might as well not have even been on the show if he was going to be used like that. Characters telling stories about him feels like a waste of screen time now.

There's nothing dumb about the image. Building up a character like that throughout the series and then never delivering is abysmal storytelling. Everyone talks about how great he is, of course viewers are going to want to see him finally do something great. But he never did. This season was suppose to be the pay off. Barristan finally getting his time in the sun was among the best parts of ADWD.

He killed more than a few, and probably more than most others would have killed in a similar situation. The fact that he is even alive and survived Joffrey's brutal slaughtering of all dissenters is a testament to that. I don't think this episode hurt his reputation in the slightest.

Jaime Lannister hasn't bested great fighters on this show either, and he was supposed to be a legend.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

The Sand Snakes are going to kill Bronn and possibly Myrcella. That is their only purpose. They won't exist next season.

I'd laugh if their only other scene this season was being imprisoned by Doran.

 

[Brakke]

Everyone was so freaked about the Sand Snakes, I was expecting them to hiss or some shit.

Meereen already got that hissing game on lock though.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Didn't George R.R. Martin intend for the unsullied to be ineffective at policing Meereen?

That they may have filmed a poor scene is secondary to this point.

Yeah what is important thematically is showing that conquering is one thing, but holding and ruling is a totally different scenario. The point of this episode was to show that her army is not as effective stationary as when they are on the move. The Second Sons have nothing to do but hang out with whores and it turns out the Unsullied are ineffective against guerrillas with unconventional tactics.

 

[someday]

This may seem really dumb, but why wouldn't Littlefinger marry Sansa himself? He's already admitted she's a Stark and consolidating the Stark loyalists with the Erie and Vale would effectively take over the north, wouldn't it? This seems much better than marrying her to the Boltons and hoping that Stannis wins.

 

[Speevy]

This may seem really dumb, but why wouldn't Littlefinger marry Sansa himself? He's already admitted she's a Stark and consolidating the Stark loyalists with the Erie and Vale would effectively take over the north, wouldn't it? This seems much better than marrying her to the Boltons and hope that Stannis wins.

He needs the Boltons out of Winterfell, but the northmen were beaten and demoralized, and would need certain assurances before fighting again.


Having Sansa in Winterfell creates a beacon for all the northmen to rally around. It's dangerous for Sansa, but it puts a Stark in Winterfell, which is far more important than having a Stark in the Eyrie.

 

[Snake]

*sigh*

This whole Unsullied debate is the worst type of criticism from book readers, it's so small and nitpicky. They are not invincible, they are human and their strength is in formation not one on one combat against outnumbered forces. I complain about large scale changes that destroys a characters motivations or arc, like Sansa marrying Ramsay. I'm upset that Barristan died but not because he went out "like a bitch" but because his character was underutilized and offed simply to save money and further condense the story. We can nitpick small details like Tyrion mentioning Stone Men in Valyria all day but those are minor complaints and not worth getting up in arms over.

Spot on.

I'm truly disappointed that Barristan is dead, but I despise the DBZ power level approach that many fans take to characters. It's one of those issues where they clearly weren't paying attention when the books were constantly subverting tropes about honor, legendary ability, and the way things are supposed to play out.

 

[someday]

He needs the Boltons out of Winterfell, but the northmen were beaten and demoralized, and would need certain assurances before fighting again.


Having Sansa in Winterfell creates a beacon for all the northmen to rally around. It's dangerous for Sansa, but it puts a Stark in Winterfell, which is far more important than having a Stark in the Eyrie.

I was thinking that if the northerners knew Sansa was near, they would fight to get the Boltons out of Winterfell to return it to the Starks. Like Littlefinger could rally the men and they would march on Winterfell to kick Roose out. Roose says himself that they don't have the power to hold it without the marriage. The Boltons don't have many friends and Ramsey's flaying hasn't helped. Marrying Sansa gives them legitimacy.

 

[Dysun]

Actually, thinking about what this new season has oddly overemphasized so far, they might have bigger plans for Shireen. They spent a number of scenes this week on getting people up to speed on R+L, but I've also noticed that in the last two episodes they've started seeding the concept of the Stone Men for viewers. There's probably a reason for that. Shireen is also getting more scenes than usual. So there might be something they're setting up.

I'm expecting Tyrion and Jorah to run into the stone men here in the next few episodes

 

[Cpt.Underpants]

Like Littlefinger could rally the men and they would march on Winterfell to kick Roose out. Roose says himself that they don't have the power to hold it without the marriage. The Boltons don't have many friends and Ramsey's flaying hasn't helped. Marrying Sansa gives them legitimacy.

Littlefinger has barely any influence to the Northern Lords. I doubt they'd even heard of his name. Sansa or Stannis I think will be the one who will rally the Northmen.

 

[Patriots7]

I was thinking that if the northerners knew Sansa was near, they would fight to get the Boltons out of Winterfell to return it to the Starks. Like Littlefinger could rally the men and they would march on Winterfell to kick Roose out. Roose says himself that they don't have the power to hold it without the marriage. The Boltons don't have many friends and Ramsey's flaying hasn't helped. Marrying Sansa gives them legitimacy.

There is not a lick of sense behind the marriage other than D&D wanting to use Sansa because they find consolidating power (Vale, Riverlands, North) and securing an alliance between three of the kingdoms is too boring. The wedding benefits the Bolton's not Sansa or Littlefinger.

The more you try and justify it, the more your head hurts. I've just stopped all together. It's a shit change to throw in a few rape scenes with a popular character.