I don't agree. GW's group were surrounded, and more and more were streaming in. When Selmy got there even more were coming in. Like someone said, this wasn't The Hobbit and he's not Legolas.
It's really more about the Unsullied, IMO than Barry. They panicked and broke ranks right off the bat. We saw them reacting to pain. Even if they had been facing overwhelming odds (and they weren't) none of those things would have happened. They basically behaved nothing like Unsullied.
-Although Littlefinger basically spelled out his entire plan this episode, it still more or less doesn't make sense. Keeping Sansa, your ace, in a place run by crazy people with an army about to crash down upon it, seems insane. I have no idea what Littlefinger is trying to do, and not in a master manipulator kind of way, but in a "you're fucking up" kind of way.
Littlefinger is like, "don't worry Stannis is about to roll through here and liberate Winterfell. It'll all be ok" and I'm thinking, "uhh being in the middle of a battlezone where absolutely anything can happen is not where Sansa should be at all. This is a horrible plan."
Speaking of stupidity, why would LF go back to King's Landing? He has no incentive to go. Cersei can't do anything to him in the north or the Vale, and by going back to KL he exposes himself to a variety of risk and uncertainty.
Speaking of stupidity, why would LF go back to King's Landing? He has no incentive to go. Cersei can't do anything to him in the north or the Vale, and by going back to KL he exposes himself to a variety of risk and uncertainty.
Speaking of stupidity, why would LF go back to King's Landing? He has no incentive to go. Cersei can't do anything to him in the north or the Vale, and by going back to KL he exposes himself to a variety of risk and uncertainty.
Like every other character in this series LF has become smug as hell. He probably think he's untouchable. I hope he knows that the Faith Militant is a thing now...
I hope Hizdahr doesn't end up being the Harpy; it feels too obvious for me since he's the only named character in the show who could reasonably harbor pro-slaver sentiment. It also kinda hurts Dany's whole "be a good ruler or embrace the dragon" arc if it turns out that Hizdahr was the bad guy all along anyway. But maybe they want to make sure that Dany stays sympathetic even after she gives the bird to Meereen.
I'd always got the impression, especially after Barriston's mini coup in ADWD (and Hizdar's stupefied ignorance when accused of being The Harpy), that the Harpy was a false flag operation by the Shavepate in order to force Dany into being heavy handed with the old masters.
Alternatively, it was the green grace the whole time, using it as a means to force Dany to take a Mereneese husband, who would then be legitimized as King after her untimely demise.
Hizdahr was always the most obvious answer, which makes him the least likely imo.
Littlefinger is like, "don't worry Stannis is about to roll through here and liberate Winterfell. It'll all be ok" and I'm thinking, "uhh being in the middle of a battlezone where absolutely anything can happen is not where Sansa should be at all. This is a horrible plan."
Sansa is too important to both sides to have anything bad happen to her. If she came to harm the hatred the Northerners have for Theon would seem quaint in comparison. Anyone who touched her would never be able to hold the castle.
That being said, LF (much like Varys) in both the novels and the show knows that Stannis would hang him at the earliest opportunity. Staying in the north to wait for the outcome isn't a good idea for him.
It's possible he doesn't know about the brothel crackdown, because it was a rash and stupid thing to do, and many of his employees and clients were arrested or gelded.
I'd always got the impression, especially after Barriston's mini coup in ADWD (and Hizdar's stupefied ignorance when accused of being The Harpy), that the Harpy was a false flag operation by the Shavepate in order to force Dany into being heavy handed with the old masters.
Alternatively, it was the green grace the whole time, using it as a means to force Dany to take a Mereneese husband, who would then be legitimized as King after her untimely demise.
Hizdahr was always the most obvious answer, which makes him the least likely imo.
After thinking about it for a while and considering what has happened already, I think I have a pretty good idea of where Dany's story could be going this season. I'm not tagging any of this because it's just speculation.
We know three very significant things:
1. Quentyn doesn't exist in show canon.
2. Barristan is dead.
3. The Siege of Meereen is 99% not happening.
The one significant thing Quentyn does in the books is release Rhaegal and Viserion. Now, since Barristan's role in the siege is quite large in the books, and since the siege isn't happening in the show (Yunkai has already submitted and Dany has her fleet), I think the following will happen.
Barristan's death will be the catalyst for releasing the dragons. Dany herself will release them. She was previously persuaded to do so by Daario. She tried and failed due to them being out of control. Now her most loyal supporter is dead, there's chaos in the streets, and her Unsullied are being murdered. I think that she finally cracks and says fuck it. She opens the fighting pits, but makes sure to release her dragons beforehand
(we know that there is some dragon action next week judging by the preview)
. I'm guessing that the dragon Tyrion sees flying overhead (as seen in the trailer) isn't Drogon at all, but one of the other two who have been newly freed and are stretching their wings.
Everything else will play out as normal, until Daznak's Pit. During this ceremony, the Sons of the Harpy will make their move and enter the pit, outnumbering the Unsullied. Jorah will already be in the pit fighting, and Dany will enter for some reason (I haven't figured this part out yet). Meanwhile, with Dany surrounded and at his mercy, Hizdahr will reveal himself as the Harpy (the juxtaposition in the most recent episode of the Sons mobilising and Hizdahr pleading with Dany to compromise was very suspect). Chaos erupts between the Unsullied and the Sons of the Harpy, and Jorah (who is dying anyway from greyscale) dies in the process, possibly along with Grey Worm and Missandei. In the middle of this shitstorm, Drogon lands in the pit and starts barbecueing everyone. Dany mounts him and flies up to meet Rhaegal and Viserion who are circling overhead. She torches the city and flies off, possibly with Tyrion on another dragon (as much as I cringe at the idea of this part, it's probably true). She lands in the Dothraki Sea and meets a khalasar. Her dragons rear up around her and roar, and the khalasar bows and submits, mirroring the season 1 finale.
And thus, Daenerys the Conqueror is born, setting the stage for the Westeros invasion in Season 6.
Only thing I really disagree with is Jorah dying, just because they're clearly setting up the greyscale plague with him. He won't die until he's gotten to add "started a plague" to his long resume of failures.
Everything else will play out as normal, until Daznak's Pit. During this ceremony, the Sons of the Harpy will make their move and enter the pit, outnumbering the Unsullied. Jorah will already be in the pit fighting, and Dany will enter for some reason (I haven't figured this part out yet). Meanwhile, with Dany surrounded and at his mercy, Hizdahr will reveal himself as the Harpy (the juxtaposition in the most recent episode of the Sons mobilising and Hizdahr pleading with Dany to compromise was very suspect).
They're Unsullied. They're the Spartans of ASOIAF. They don't have to think about how to counter in any scenario that involves combat. They've trained fanatically since youth to fight as a unit and work together instinctively.
There are absolutely scenarios *like this* that could have come off as believable. Had there been archers up on a second level, or other Harpies throwing down fire bombs. Had there been some sort of physical trap in the alleyway. Had they been far, far more outnumbered.
As it played out in the show, all the Unsullied would need to do is raise their shields, stick their lances out, keep formation, and pick one direction to go in and just break through. Their opponents are just dudes in robes with knives. There's literally nothing they could do to keep the Unsullied trapped in that alley as it was presented in the show.
I don't doubt it, one way or another. The cool thing about the Jeyne plot was that she was kind of expendable since you knew she was a phony but the characters didn't so reading your mind was racing about the potential very real consequences over a fake and what if the real Arya came back (probably never going to happen but still) or if Sansa eventually interacted with her.
I understand that there's the need for some compression but Sansa is way too important to be in a situation like this.
So everyone here is focusing on that ending, but I'm more interested in the middle. Does the need to include Lyanna's history into the show pretty much confirm that Jon is a Targaryen?
They're Unsullied. They're the Spartans of ASOIAF. They don't have to think about how to counter in any scenario that involves combat. They've trained fanatically since youth to fight as a unit and work together instinctively.
There are absolutely scenarios *like this* that could have come off as believable. Had there been archers up on a second level, or other Harpies throwing down fire bombs. Had there been some sort of physical trap in the alleyway. Had they been far, far more outnumbered.
As it played out in the show, all the Unsullied would need to do is raise their shields, stick their lances out, keep formation, and pick one direction to go in and just break through. Their opponents are just dudes in robes with knives. There's literally nothing they could do to keep the Unsullied trapped in that alley as it was presented in the show.
I wouldn't have had any problem with that, had the odds actually been overwhelming. They weren't. At all.
Agreed to both of these... It should have been dozens and dozens in a small area with the Unsullied and Selmy overwhelmed with odds, plus some other trap... Like you said, firebombs or something from above. Felt like they tried to cut costs with this scene, but it makes the Unsullied look completely weak and vulnerable, which they shouldn't be.
So everyone here is focusing on that ending, but I'm more interested in the middle. Does the need to include Lyanna's history into the show pretty much confirm that Jon is a Targaryen?
So everyone here is focusing on that ending, but I'm more interested in the middle. Does the need to include Lyanna's history into the show pretty much confirm that Jon is a Targaryen?
Agreed to both of these... It should have been dozens and dozens in a small area with the Unsullied and Selmy overwhelmed with odds, plus some other trap... Like you said, firebombs or something from above. Felt like they tried to cut costs with this scene, but it makes the Unsullied look completely weak and vulnerable, which they shouldn't be.
Yes. And undisciplined, which they would never be, under any circumstances. It's not about them losing in a fight, it's about them not behaving or fighting at all like Unsullied.
So everyone here is focusing on that ending, but I'm more interested in the middle. Does the need to include Lyanna's history into the show pretty much confirm that Jon is a Targaryen?
So, this may be a touchy subject but I thought someone had confirmed rumors that a character death was supposed to happen in these first four episodes.
So, this may be a touchy subject but I thought someone had confirmed rumors that a character death was supposed to happen in these first four episodes.
So, this may be a touchy subject but I thought someone had confirmed rumors that a character death was supposed to happen in these first four episodes.
I hope they upgrade the faith militant going forward. Need to recruit some Knights. That showdown of Kingsguard vs Dudes In Robes Holding Wooden Cudgels was good for that showdown, but when we actually start pushing and shoving, the Sparrows are going to need to pose a more credible threat. I wish we had *any* knights in King's Landing who could take up a seven pointed star device.
So, this may be a touchy subject but I thought someone had confirmed rumors that a character death was supposed to happen in these first four episodes.
So, this may be a touchy subject but I thought someone had confirmed rumors that a character death was supposed to happen in these first four episodes.
I'm not sure about the ratio but unsullied are supposed to be some order of magnitude superior to other warriors. That fight looked garbage The first time there's an opportunity to demonstrate their composure which is the entire reason they don't have their knick knacks they crumble.
Yeah, I don't know people are theorizing that but I checked the other thread and apparently its revealed what happens to him in the preview so people could already know. Who else significant could have died?
Well if it's confirmed from previews and such ok. It just seems silly. You could have just cut his throat and been done with it. It looks weird to stop the sure kill moment and he's still gone.
First scene next ep should be one last Harpy walking up and double-tapping Barry, followed by Drogon swooping down and devouring him, just to settle all the confusion.
First scene next ep should be one last Harpy walking up and double-tapping Barry, followed by Drogon swooping down and devouring him, just to settle all the confusion.
I'm not sure about the ratio but unsullied are supposed to be some order of magnitude superior to other warriors. That fight looked garbage The first time there's an opportunity to demonstrate their composure which is the entire reason they don't have their knick knacks they crumble.
Well, we have been showed that Unsullied have their guard down in Mereen based on that one getting his throat slit at the whores home. Maybe they are losing some of their superior fighting edge without masters lording over them to maintain it. I mean, they are free men now.
According to the books, (and the show as well, up until the end of last night's episode) - the Unsullied would not panic and break ranks. They wouldn't show fear and react to pain.
They're outnumbered around 3 to 1 by my best guesstimate based on initial viewing. But they've got the shields, light armor and spears they normally take into battle. Their opponent is in robes, armed only with daggers, with nowhere near the level of training. IMO- the Unsullied would keep formation, draw shields, break through one side or the other of the alley so they're no longer surrounded, and win that fight pretty handily.
But the outcome isn't my main gripe so much as the behavior that led to it. Unsullied don't do that. Ever. That's what makes them Unsullied. It just shows a lapse in reason by the showrunners, no different than if Jaime or Jon did something wildly out of character.
Isn't the most famous story about the Unsullied the fact that 3000 of them beat 25,000 Dothraki or something insane like that? Yeah that's horseman vs shield wall but the Dothraki are waaaaay stronger than a bunch of peasants in gold masks.
First scene next ep should be one last Harpy walking up and double-tapping Barry, followed by Drogon swooping down and devouring him, just to settle all the confusion.
He's right about it though. That scene didn't at all make it obvious that he was dead and actually made it look like he was saved by Grey Worm. Such a disappointing end to his character.
Edit: Come to think of it the show lately seems to have a problem conveying things to the viewer as a lot of people after last week's episode thought Sansa and LF were still in Moat Cailin.
Rag tag group of potentially untrained guerrilla fighters, with knives, versus a phalanx of Spartan soldiers who are born and raised to be methodical warriors. Oh, and one of the best swordsman who ever lived.
If it had been four times the numbers I would have maybe believed it. If they had used some other tactics to overwhelm them (like attacking with traps or from above), I would have believed it.
But no, 30 should not have been able to beat them in sloppy combat. As a viewer it was not presented in a way that felt like it could, or would, have happened.
I don't even remember how the show has presented the Unsullied (as far as 'feel no pain'/'Spartans', etc) or the Sons for that matter. Need to go back and re watch.
For fuck sake, can we just change the subtitle of the thread to:
BARRISTAN SELMY IS DEAD
Yes, it was horribly conveyed and clumsily handled, but surely you can at least read a few responses back to see why people might be saying that he's dead?
LF is stupid as hell, so I shall call him Pedro from now on. So yeah, Pedro is stupid and he is going to get captured. What the fuck are the writers doing with the bad guys? Seriously, they have butchered every bad guy in the story and the ones they haven't they simply have forgotten about them. At this point I feel the only bad guy worth a damn is Roose.
On the other hand Stan the man was fucking awesome and this is further proof that he will be dead sooner than later.
PS: The SS look and sound bad, but then again, they were always corny and I have no idea what GRRM has in store for them.
Isn't the most famous story about the Unsullied the fact that 3000 of them beat 25,000 Dothraki or something insane like that? Yeah that's horseman vs shield wall but the Dothraki are waaaaay stronger than a bunch of peasants in gold masks.
Yes. The Battle of Qohor. They wound up winning against Dothraki riders outnumbered more than 8 to 1, mainly because they refused to break formation and they kept forcing Temmo's men to ride into their spears/shields.
But hey- a few thugs in an alley with daggers. Whole different deal. Time to hit the panic button, Jack.
