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[CitizenVectron]

I have my reasons for feeling this.

Seeing his death will make her more resolved to take drastic action. Given how this show loves to show only the highlights of book events, I can see her marrying Hizdahr and opening the fighting pits as a way to show compromise.

This will lead to any number of possible outcomes in this season or the next, including a an overwhelming force of Slaver's Bay armies outside her door, flying away on Drogon, etc.

What's important it not what happens, but that it leads Danyt to questioning her own ideals and whether she really trusts her own sense of justice anymore. She can either resolve to give up on her hopes to take the iron throne, or turn to the very tactics that made the cruel conquerors she decried so successful. Having her choose the latter would make for an interesting shift to say the least, since it would .likely make Tyrion and Varys change their minds about her.

Haven't we heard from somewhere (I can't even remember where) that the siege/battle of Mereen has been cut?

 

[Speevy]

Haven't we heard from somewhere (I can't even remember where) that the siege/battle of Mereen has been cut?

I'm not sure, but they have to do something to show Dany failing utterly beyond just a few harpy attacks.

 

[PhoenixDark]

The discussion about R+L=J in the Unsullied thread is quite interesting. I was worried that they were slow playing Jon's parentage too much and that the significance of the Rhaegar exposition they included this week would be lost on non-book readers, given how far removed we are from season 1. Glad to see I was wrong. However, the discussion does illustrate one important point: the show desperately needs to do the Tower of Joy.

It's also clear a lot of people have heard the theory before, either from book readers or online. There's an R+L=J video on youtube with more than 2 million views...I think people have spoiled themselves, and now can't help but spoil others lol. And I also think there are some covert book readers in that thread.

That being said I also believe many people have genuinely put 1 and 1 together. I agree a Tower Of Joy flashback would be helpful, or at least some information on it. I'm surprised the Reed kids didn't mention it on the show.

 

[Real Hero]

They are going to need to end her Meereen story somehow. In the books you have Tyrion, Barristen, Deaneyrs, Victarion, Jorah and basically all Deaneyrs's enemies she has gotten through all her chapters in one climatic battle. Throw in that Dothraki horde if she gains control of it. Now the show could never do something so huge obviously but its going to need a climax bigger than ' i guess this place sucks lets go to westeros'.

 

[Chaos17]

I liked Barristan, he seemed the only one who was really teaching Daenerys some politics while other beleived in her judgement blindly (hellooow she is an inexperimenced child!).

Some part of me wanted Daenrys to burn the city because the people are unable to live in peace now they've been freed (ok, I understand why they're still angry but attacking their savior is WRONG).

 

[PhoenixDark]

Haven't we heard from somewhere (I can't even remember where) that the siege/battle of Mereen has been cut?

I'd imagine it'll be next season. Daznak's Pit seems like the big episode 9 moment this year. I'd imagine ep 10 will end with Dany burning the shit out of whoever finds her in the wilderness.

So I guess Jorah and Tyrion will replace Barristan. Jorah leading the army, Tyrion ruling the city with Missandei.

 

[NeoGiff]

I thought it was pretty clear that the implication in the Small Council scene was that Mace was being sent to sort shit out with the Iron Bank... and not return.

 

[Woody Invincible]

I thought Barristan's death was meant to show the futility of his ideals in the face of this new enemy.

Barristan brought wisdom governed by decades in service to the kings of Westeros, but none of his best intentions applied in Meereen. She told him to patrol the streets and keep her safe like he had done a million times before for other nobles, but it turned out to be his undoing.

Every major character death in the books/show follows the pattern of deconstructed ideal or vice.

Ned died for honor, Robb for love and honor, Catelyn for devotion, Joffrey for cruelty, Tywin for legacy, Renly for lusting after power, Oberyn for single-minded revenge, Viserys for ambition, Robert for drunkenness and pride, Ygritte for love, and the list goes on.

Every character is given a scenario where their best intentions are challenged. Their very nature is put to the test, and their response to that test determines whether they'll succeed.

There are thousands of pages, but it really boils down to a simple formula. Can a major character overcome their failing before someone or something kills them?

J/K, great post.

 

[Massa]

I thought it was pretty clear that the implication in the Small Council scene was that Mace was being sent to sort shit out with the Iron Bank... and not return.

Let's hope Ser Meryn Trant was planning to deal with him on the way back from Braavos.

 

[Woody Invincible]

I'd be more worried for Meryn Trant's safety while in Braavos.

Mind blown. I feel like an unsullied.

 

[Brakke]

Mind blown. I feel like an unsullied.

And now you are Sullied again.

 

[eot]

It's also clear a lot of people have heard the theory before, either from book readers or online. There's an R+L=J video on youtube with more than 2 million views...I think people have spoiled themselves, and now can't help but spoil others lol. And I also think there are some covert book readers in that thread.

That being said I also believe many people have genuinely put 1 and 1 together. I agree a Tower Of Joy flashback would be helpful, or at least some information on it. I'm surprised the Reed kids didn't mention it on the show.

In some ways I think it might be easier for show watchers to figure it out. The show has less time for minor details, so you know that anything they include is potentially important. When you read the books it's easy to accidentally pay less attention to something that's actually important. The format of the show (being weekly) also lends itself to speculation. Obviously if you read AGoT when it first came out you had plenty of time to analyse it, but I read most of the books in one go and I didn't exactly put them down every three chapters and speculate on stuff. There's no need, if you want to know what happens just keep reading.

 

[WaffleTaco]

IMDB spoilers

Spoiler

Margaery receives a grim surprise. That has to be Mace.

Or maybe it's

Spoiler

something to do with her brother, who was just taken by the faith milita

 

[Moff]

I thought it was pretty clear that the implication in the Small Council scene was that Mace was being sent to sort shit out with the Iron Bank... and not return.

I didn't get that, why would he not return?

 

[-griffy-]

In some ways I think it might be easier for show watchers to figure it out. The show has less time for minor details, so you know that anything they include is potentially important. When you read the books it's easy to accidentally pay less attention to something that's actually important. The format of the show (beeing weekly) also lends itself to speculation. Obviously if you read AGoT when it first came out you had plenty of time to analyse it, but I read most of the books in one go and I didn't exactly put them down every three chapters and speculate on stuff. There's no need, if you want to know what happens just keep reading.

I didn't pick up on R+L=J at all on my first read through. Not until reading stuff on line did I come across it. That was just flavor text/backstory filling out the world to me, I didn't really pay it too much mind. But the show is a different beast.

It's also why they've not covered some of the prophecies/visions we saw in the books I imagine (Dany's stuff foreshadowing the Red Wedding, for example), as it would just be too obvious and on the nose. Entirely different when it's one element of many in a flurry of visions in a giant book vs. one prominent scene in a 10 hour season.

I didn't get that, why would he not return?

Because Meryn Trant is a sonofabitch who is loyal to Cersei. I'm not sure the plans are actually for Trant to "protect" Mace on the trip so much as they are to "dispose of Mace in a way that looks like an accident."

 

[Intheflorsh]

Come on, you don't need to be observant to notice that Cersei and Trant shared a Meaningful Look.

 

[Moff]

the only thing I thought in that scene was a setup for arya to kill trant, but I guess you're right. arya will probably save mace.

 

[Violater]

Mace has to be the biggest idiot on the whole damn show, wont miss him.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Mace has to be the biggest idiot on the whole damn show, wont miss him.

Or it could all be an act just like Pycelle, at least I hope so.

 

[Brakke]

Or it could all be an act just like Pycelle, at least I hope so.

I haven't been happy with Pycelle in a long time. Way back when he had that limbering-up-after-bonin' scene I was thrilled with him. But he hasn't done anything at all sneaky or sharp or interesting since then. Just going through the Old Maester Motions, boringly.

 

[CitizenVectron]

Or maybe it's

Spoiler

something to do with her brother, who was just taken by the faith milita

Oh man, they'd better not kill Loras off. They'll probably do him dirty like Barristan, too.

 

[Speevy]

Maybe Arya will faceless man Meryn Trant or Mace and infiltrate King's Landing.

Does it have to be someone your own size or can you become anyone who's dead or what?

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Maybe Arya will faceless man Meryn Trant or Mace and infiltrate King's Landing.

Does it have to be someone your own size or can you become anyone who's dead or what?

I'm thinking they can just change the face. It would be incredibly awesome if Arya went back to King's Landing with her body and Mace's face.

 

[gutshot]

It's also clear a lot of people have heard the theory before, either from book readers or online. There's an R+L=J video on youtube with more than 2 million views...I think people have spoiled themselves, and now can't help but spoil others lol. And I also think there are some covert book readers in that thread.

That being said I also believe many people have genuinely put 1 and 1 together. I agree a Tower Of Joy flashback would be helpful, or at least some information on it. I'm surprised the Reed kids didn't mention it on the show.

Oh yeah, there are definitely people in that thread who knew about R+L=J beforehand and now have an opportunity to share their "revelation". But plenty more had no clue prior to this episode and seeing them go back and piece together the clues is fun to watch. Just wish that a Tower of Joy flashback was one of those clues as it really brings the whole theory together.

As griffy noted, putting it in the show now is going to be a dead giveaway, but they almost have no choice now. Not sure how they could fit it in though and have it be organic, since the only one who could remember it is Howland Reed and I highly doubt he will ever appear on screen. Maybe it could be shown in a vision to Melisandre? I suppose some exposition about it could work too, but it would be a shame not to get to see it on screen given how cinematic it is. Plus it'd be an opportunity to bring back Sean Bean.

 

[CrocMother]

I carefully rewatched that Jaime scene where he fights the dornish one on one. In 45 seconds, I counted 40 cuts during the sequence.

It was truly mindboggling, there wasn't one angle there that lasted more than 3 seconds

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Oh yeah, there are definitely people in that thread who knew about R+L=J beforehand and now have an opportunity to share their "revelation". But plenty more had no clue prior to this episode and seeing them go back and piece together the clues is fun to watch. Just wish that a Tower of Joy flashback was one of those clues as it really brings the whole theory together.

As griffy noted, putting it in the show now is going to be a dead giveaway, but they almost have no choice now. Not sure how they could fit it in though and have it be organic, since the only one who could remember it is Howland Reed and I highly doubt he will ever appear on screen. Maybe it could be shown in a vision to Melisandre? I suppose some exposition about it could work too, but it would be a shame not to get to see it on screen given how cinematic it is. Plus it'd be an opportunity to bring back Sean Bean.

If they want to show it, like you said it'll probably be a Melisandre vision, or if they wait until next season it could be shown through Bran.

 

[BobTheFork]

I think it could be a straight flash-back if they open the season with it. If you just open on Sean Bean riding with his posse, people would pick it up. Someone here mentioned you could have that scene and then cut to Jon opening his eyes and it's as clear as it gets.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Oh yeah, there are definitely people in that thread who knew about R+L=J beforehand and now have an opportunity to share their "revelation". But plenty more had no clue prior to this episode and seeing them go back and piece together the clues is fun to watch. Just wish that a Tower of Joy flashback was one of those clues as it really brings the whole theory together.

As griffy noted, putting it in the show now is going to be a dead giveaway, but they almost have no choice now. Not sure how they could fit it in though and have it be organic, since the only one who could remember it is Howland Reed and I highly doubt he will ever appear on screen. Maybe it could be shown in a vision to Melisandre? I suppose some exposition about it could work too, but it would be a shame not to get to see it on screen given how cinematic it is. Plus it'd be an opportunity to bring back Sean Bean.

Before finding out Bran wouldn't be in this season I thought they'd do it by showing his vision from ADWD. IE the one with Ned praying that Robb and Jon would grow up "as close as brothers." That would be another big hint and allow them to bring back a beloved character/actor.

Whereas a Tower Of Joy scene would require a bunch of new names/actors/set/etc.

 

[Violater]

Or it could all be an act just like Pycelle, at least I hope so.

Hahaha No, even his family know's he's an idiot, especially the Queen of thornes who holds him in no high regard.

 

[thefro]

In some ways I think it might be easier for show watchers to figure it out. The show has less time for minor details, so you know that anything they include is potentially important. When you read the books it's easy to accidentally pay less attention to something that's actually important. The format of the show (being weekly) also lends itself to speculation. Obviously if you read AGoT when it first came out you had plenty of time to analyse it, but I read most of the books in one go and I didn't exactly put them down every three chapters and speculate on stuff. There's no need, if you want to know what happens just keep reading.

Yeah, the fact that it was on "Previously On Game of Thrones" before the episode, plus the 2 different scenes talking about it make it clear that Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark are important, anyway.

It'd make more sense and be easier to hide in Season 1 since it was motivation for the previous war and relates to Ned/Robert (they did mention it a little bit in Season 1, but not in any detail), but now there's not a clear connection to the current situation.

 

[eot]

Maybe Arya will faceless man Meryn Trant or Mace and infiltrate King's Landing.

Does it have to be someone your own size or can you become anyone who's dead or what?

It's gonna be Meryn Trant, it was one of the few names Arya kept saying to herself outside the house of B&W.

 

[Cornballer]

A few pieces of content:
- Inside the Episode (D&D on Sunday's installment, youtube)
- Aiden Gillen interview with Making Game of Thrones
- NY Mag Article: Growing Up on ‘Game of Thrones’ - What Maisie Williams has learned from Arya Stark.
- NY Mag interview: Game of Thrones’ Nikolaj Coster-Waldau on Jaime’s Journey and Why Cersei Should Be Queen
- NY Mag interview: Game of Thrones’ Eugene Simon on Why Lancel Lannister Became Such an ‘Oppressive Figure’
- THR: 'Game of Thrones': Brutal Uprising Is "Only the Beginning" (Eugene Simon/Lancel interview)

- Watchers: HBO announces switch to online-only screeners after Game of Thrones leaks
- Watchers: Game of Thrones ratings remain flat for another week with Ep. 504 “Sons of the Harpy”

 

[Speevy]

I'm thinking they can just change the face. It would be incredibly awesome if Arya went back to King's Landing with her body and Mace's face.

A girl goes too far

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

A girl goes too far

Hahaha, good work. I was hoping for that.

 

[BobTheFork]

It's gonna be Meryn Trant, it was one of the few names Arya kept saying to herself outside the house of B&W.

It's stupid but I wanted her to do the Bronn thing and say his name as Treryn Mant.

 

[biosnake20]

Make it even more obvious why don't you.

 

[Speevy]

Are you Jon Snow's mother? It's more likely than you think.

 

[BobTheFork]

Are you Jon Snow's mother? It's more likely than you think.

Are they still doing the Facebook episode recaps because that's perfect.

 

[Brazil]

It's not like GRRM was ever subtle with all the R+L=J nods in the books either...

 

[aronnov reborn]

after everything Sansa has been through I sure hope she doesn't get "Ramsey'd"

 

[RatskyWatsky]

Not sure if you know this, but that's actually who Martin had in mind for her. When he was writing her, he thought of Kidman perhaps.

Is there a list of the actors he had in mind for the various characters? I know he has also mentioned the actress he had in mind for Arianne (though I don't remember who it was), so there must be more than just those two.

 

[Patriots7]

Jane Johnson(GRRM's UK Editor):

Preach, sister.
At this point the show is just fan fiction.

Not even creative/good one either.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Is there a list of the actors he had in mind for the various characters? I know he has also mentioned the actress he had in mind for Arianne (though I don't remember who it was), so there must be more than just those two.

I just remember Ron Perlman for the Hound.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

I just remember Ron Perlman for the Hound.

Hm. I don't see it. :/

 

[Cornballer]

Hm. I don't see it. :/

GRRM worked with him on Beauty and the Beast for a while. Not that it necessarily makes him more appropriate for the role, but they know each other.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

after everything Sansa has been through I sure hope she doesn't get "Ramsey'd"

I mean, this is the question. But I can't see her being Jeyne'd. Certainly not to the point fArya was. Why have Roose even mention how much they need her, if Ramsay's just gonna flay and rape and torment her or whatever?

 

[Patriots7]

I mean, this is the question. But I can't see her being Jeyne'd. Certainly not to the point fArya was. Why have Roose even mention how much they need her, if Ramsay's just gonna flay and rape and torment her or whatever?

They need a Stark and an heir. Condition doesn't really matter.

 

[-griffy-]

They need a Stark and an heir. Condition doesn't really matter.

It matters if they want support of the other Northern houses.

 

[Speevy]

Do you think we could see Greatjon Umber again?

He has Rickon, doesn't he?

 

[bodyofanamerican]

It matters if they want support of the other Northern houses.

Exactly. When I said that Roose mentioned needing her, I took it to imply needing her healthy, not miserable, and unharmed. Because otherwise, the North would rise up against the Boltons.