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[Tuffty]

He should have just torn off that sweaty leather sack on his belly and waded in shirtless.

Ramsay did that and survived against twenty of the best killas of the Iron Islands!

Well to be pedantic, Ramsey did have his crew (and a few dogs) behind him to back him up while Barristan was by himself.

But yes, it was pretty sad to see Barristan go, if only because it's the first and only time you get to see this renowned swordsman fight. Still, he's alive in the books!

 

[Showaddy]

Jumping back a little, I am perturbed by Bronn discussing how he want's to die, I have a feeling he won't make it passed the next episode, which makes me sad as he has been a high-point since S1.

Jamie lives imho.

Jaime talking about dying in the arms of the woman he loves after gazing wistfully at Tarth had me wondering if there was some ironic foreshadowing going on there. Stannis replacing Stoneheart and getting Brienne to swear to kill Jaime on the end of a noose and would be interesting (kinda...).

Well more interesting than just killing her killing Stannis at least.

 

[Byakuya769]

The future.

Noooooooooooooooo!

 

[fallengorn]

Usually when the show/books subvert fantasy tropes, they manage to do it in a shocking or cruelly ironic way. This was just a flat "oh, I guess he's dead now".

Would've worked better if they fleshed out his character. The didn't really do much with him.

 

[BobTheFork]

Jaime talking about dying in the arms of the woman he loves after gazing wistfully at Tarth had me wondering if there was some ironic foreshadowing going on there. Stannis replacing Stoneheart and getting Brienne to swear to kill Jaime on the end of a noose and would be interesting (kinda...).

Well more interesting than just killing her killing Stannis at least.

I hadn't thought it that but it would be pretty damned funny for Stannis to find Brienne in WinterFell and put her to death for killing his brother lol.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

He should have just torn off that sweaty leather sack on his belly and waded in shirtless.

Ramsay did that and survived against twenty of the best killas of the Iron Islands!

If ever there was a man in Westeros familiar with tearing off sweaty leather sacks, it's Ramsay Bolton, trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Jane Johnson(GRRM's UK Editor):

lol

I thought the episode was bad but I judged it on a tv basis; the show is the show, the books are the books. Publicly Martin seems fine with everything (except last season's rape scene, which he clearly didn't like) but I'd imagine he's rather disappointed. In himself mainly. If the book was out or almost out he wouldn't be in this situation.

 

[NeoGiff]

If ever there was a man in Westeros familiar with tearing off sweaty leather sacks, it's Ramsay Bolton, trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

 

[R1CHO]

Barring the kill count, it was just was a poorly choreographed and edited sequence.

It was so awkward and terrible. I get the actor is 66, but they fucked the scene badly. And not only his part, the Unsullied fought like a bunch of untrained individual without any group tactics.

 

[hiryu]

I read most of this thread before watching the episode last night. I don't get all the bitching about the unsullied getting ambushed or how Barristan died.

They were outnumbered at least 4:1 and Barristan wasted plenty of Harpies before dying. You might disagree with having him die so soon but he went out in a fitting manner.

These first four episodes have been pretty boring with only the good stuff coming from the north but these parts of the books were bad too so what are you going to do.

 

[Dysun]

Jane Johnson(GRRM's UK Editor):

Pretty much spot on yeah.

 

[Moff]

well it's hard to deny that, if you want the story exactly the way GRRM wrote it, you need to read the books

 

[Paganmoon]

Pretty much spot on yeah.

Maybe we would, you know, if the author actually released the last 2 (it'll probably be 3) books.

 

[R1CHO]

I read most of this thread before watching the episode last night. I don't get all the bitching about the unsullied getting ambushed or how Barristan died.

They were outnumbered at least 4:1 and Barristan wasted plenty of Harpies before dying. You might disagree with having him die so soon but he went out in a fitting manner.

These first four episodes have been pretty boring with only the good stuff coming from the north but these parts of the books were bad too so what are you going to do.

7 elite warriors, brothers in arms, rise to fight since childs... with spear, sword and shield, they fucked it since the first second of the "ambush".

I didn't want them to win, I wanted them to try not sucking.

 

[Speevy]

If you want to know the real story, read the chapters with characters that would have gotten the show cancelled after a year due to low ratings.

 

[Valhelm]

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/01/ser-barristan-dead-thrones

People are still ignoring this, I see.

Oh.

 

[foxtrot3d]

Jane Johnson(GRRM's UK Editor):

You know I don't really like comments like this from people that represent or are associated with Martin in any professional/official capacity. If GRRM didn't like the way the show was doing things he would say so, he doesn't require supplicants to speak for him and note their disapproval about how things have unfolded in the show. If you are not Martin do not try and speak for him.

 

[Dysun]

Maybe we would, you know, if the author actually released the last 2 (it'll probably be 3) books.

I can wait

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I can wait

See ya in 2025!

 

[Valhelm]

You know I don't really like comments like this from people that represent or are associated with Martin in any professional/official capacity. If GRRM didn't like the way the show was doing things he would say so, he doesn't require supplicants to speak for him and note their disapproval about how things have unfolded in the show. If you are not Martin do not try and speak for him.

It seems pretty clear from television interviews that GRRM doesn't like it, but he trusts D&D somewhat and knows that the books will be the definitive version.

 

[Iksenpets]

Usually when the show/books subvert fantasy tropes, they manage to do it in a shocking or cruelly ironic way. This was just a flat "oh, I guess he's dead now".

Yeah, that's my problem with it. It's just thematically and narratively flat. Killing off characters is fine, but it has to mean something. Like, when they killed off Jojen early, ignoring the silliness of the actual skeleton fight, it was a narratively fitting death because Jojen had completed his mission, knowing it would kill him. When they killed Talisa early, it fit because it was part of the complete destruction of the Starks, and went along with Robb and Cat's deaths as part of the central trope subversion of the series. This one is just such a transparent culling of the cast, without any more thought than that behind it.

You know I don't really like comments like this from people that represent or are associated with Martin in any professional/official capacity. If GRRM didn't like the way the show was doing things he would say so, he doesn't require supplicants to speak for him and note their disapproval about how things have unfolded in the show. If you are not Martin do not try and speak for him.

Yeah, I kind of agree with this. She's contradicting GRRM's stated opinions on the matter in an attempt to drum up interest in a product she'll maybe be selling sometime this decade. I mean, she's basically bad mouthing one of her own client's products to try to gin up interest in his product that she actually gets a cut from.

I mean, I think GRRM probably agrees on some level, but he's smart enough to know where his business interest lies. I think emotionally he hates the changes, but on some intellectual level somewhere also understands their necessity.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Barristan killed more Harpies than Dany's Dragons

Stop being upset that he died fighting 15 Harpies.

Scene could have been shot better, we even know GoT has the ability to have awesome fight scenes.

 

[Speevy]

I thought Barristan's death was meant to show the futility of his ideals in the face of this new enemy.

Barristan brought wisdom governed by decades in service to the kings of Westeros, but none of his best intentions applied in Meereen. She told him to patrol the streets and keep her safe like he had done a million times before for other nobles, but it turned out to be his undoing.

Every major character death in the books/show follows the pattern of deconstructed ideal or vice.

Ned died for honor, Robb for love and honor, Catelyn for devotion, Joffrey for cruelty, Tywin for legacy, Renly for lusting after power, Oberyn for single-minded revenge, Viserys for ambition, Robert for drunkenness and pride, Ygritte for love, and the list goes on.

Every character is given a scenario where their best intentions are challenged. Their very nature is put to the test, and their response to that test determines whether they'll succeed.

There are thousands of pages, but it really boils down to a simple formula. Can a major character overcome their failing before someone or something kills them?

 

[Kain]

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/01/ser-barristan-dead-thrones

People are still ignoring this, I see.

How did you find out?
It proves you should probably not read the books. I’ve read the books. So I thought this season I was going to have more to do, and I was really looking forward to that. And then I got my dates from my agent and I thought, ‘That doesn’t tally.’ Because there was no way if they were sticking to the books that I should be in for that number of weeks. It seemed to me they must be writing me out. So I had a word with the line producer and said, “Can you corroborate that they’re writing me out?” Then the [showrunners] rang me and told me, ‘Your time is up in this series.’ So perhaps I took them by surprise that I knew.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

 

[Speevy]

He should have thrown the script at the director's feet and told him to melt it down with all the others.

 

[foxtrot3d]

He should have thrown the script at the director's feet and told him to melt it down with all the others.

Heh, that gave me a chuckle.

 

[gutshot]

The discussion about R+L=J in the Unsullied thread is quite interesting. I was worried that they were slow playing Jon's parentage too much and that the significance of the Rhaegar exposition they included this week would be lost on non-book readers, given how far removed we are from season 1. Glad to see I was wrong. However, the discussion does illustrate one important point: the show desperately needs to do the Tower of Joy.

 

[-griffy-]

The discussion about R+L=J in the Unsullied thread is quite interesting. I was worried that they were slow playing Jon's parentage too much and that the significance of the Rhaegar exposition they included this week would be lost on non-book readers, given how far removed we are from season 1. Glad to see I was wrong. However, the discussion does illustrate one important point: the show desperately needs to do the Tower of Joy.

That's the missing piece that some seem to be needing for things to be fully formed, but dropping that info almost makes it too obvious. They can probably get away with saving that as part of when they fully reveal the truth.

 

[biosnake20]

It seems pretty clear from television interviews that GRRM doesn't like it, but he trusts D&D somewhat and knows that the books will be the definitive version.

Actually it's not clear at all. He's usually ambiguous.

 

[BobTheFork]

The discussion about R+L=J in the Unsullied thread is quite interesting. I was worried that they were slow playing Jon's parentage too much and that the significance of the Rhaegar exposition they included this week would be lost on non-book readers, given how far removed we are from season 1. Glad to see I was wrong. However, the discussion does illustrate one important point: the show desperately needs to do the Tower of Joy.

It's season 5 and they didn't do enough before now to really suggest anything hidden about his parents aside from Ned's character and the line about 'having his blood'. They can't really afford to be coy about it now. Given what we all expect, they had to be a bit heavy handed about it now since we aren't that far off from it becoming very important.

A Tower of Joy scene would be great for a few reasons and it wouldn't have to take long. I just don't see them doing it.

 

[Speevy]

On the one hand, the books are the books and the show is the show.

On the other hand, I just tripped over a giant stack of money on my way over here, so I'm really excited to see what they're doing this season.

 

[Intheflorsh]

I thought Barristan's death was meant to show the futility of his ideals in the face of this new enemy.

Barristan brought wisdom governed by decades in service to the kings of Westeros, but none of his best intentions applied in Meereen. She told him to patrol the streets and keep her safe like he had done a million times before for other nobles, but it turned out to be his undoing.

But Barristan was actually giving good advice (don't execute the prisoner, don't crucify the slavers, get the hell out of Meereen, etc.), Dany just ignored him. Plus he wasn't actually patrolling the streets, he just happened to be on a stroll before the fight.

 

[Speevy]

But Barristan was actually giving good advice (don't execute the prisoner, don't crucify the slavers, get the hell out of Meereen, etc.), Dany just ignored him. Plus he wasn't actually patrolling the streets, he just happened to be on a stroll before the fight.

I disagree. I agree that it was good advice, but I disagree that it was the best fit for this situation. The prisoner was actually right that the former slaves of Meereen are too simple to understand democracy, justice, etc. They understand only blood.

 

[aronnov reborn]

Wait.. so is Mace Tyrell in Danger?

 

[-griffy-]

Wait.. so is Mace Tyrell in Danger?

I'd be more worried for Meryn Trant's safety while in Braavos.

 

[aronnov reborn]

I'd be more worried for Meryn Trant's safety while in Braavos.

I didnt even put that together until just now... great opportunity for a girl with no name.

 

[Speevy]

Mace is going to get dumped overboard, and Trant will dock in Braavos. Arya will kill him.

 

[toastyToast]

Wait.. so is Mace Tyrell in Danger?

Doubt it although the show has demonstrated that its willing to go on tangents. All I'm expecting is for Mace to haplessly try to persuade the IB into giving the crown an extension on their payment which will resolve them to support Stannis maybe sending one of their guys to The Wall the same episode.

 

[Speevy]

IMDB spoilers

Spoiler

Margaery receives a grim surprise. That has to be Mace.

 

[Intheflorsh]

I disagree. I agree that it was good advice, but I disagree that it was the best fit for this situation. The prisoner was actually right that the former slaves of Meereen are too simple to understand democracy, justice, etc. They understand only blood.

Maybe the "fire and blood" approach makes sense for the ex-slaves, but those actions are probably what lead to the slavers forming the Harpies and ultimately killing Selmy. The point I'm trying to make is that Selmy's actions are not what lead to him being killed, so the "overcoming failures" narrative wasn't really satisfied.

Wait.. so is Mace Tyrell in Danger?

Dude's fucked.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

I think that it's interesting how they're portraying the High Sparrow this season. It was pretty clear in the books that Cersei was being manipulated by him into rearming them but in the show it seems it's Cersei driving it with the High Sparrow being reticent.

However, despite this fact and him seeming penitent about how the High Septim was treated, he sure went full on with the Faith Militant very quickly and even made a power play with the king, which makes me think he's more sly than he appears.

I mean, we all know that this is going to turn out badly for Cersei but I like the subtle ways that the High Sparrow's character and motivations are slightly in question.

 

[CitizenVectron]

I don't think Cersei intends to kill Mace (though it may happen inadvertently). I think she is just removing him from the scene for a month or two. And yeah, obviously Trant is going to bite it.

Every time my friends and I talk about him, we always say it the way the Hound did: "Meryn 'f***ing' Trant!?!"

 

[Speevy]

Maybe the "fire and blood" approach makes sense for the ex-slaves, but those actions are probably what lead to the slavers forming the Harpies and ultimately killing Selmy. The point I'm trying to make is that Selmy's actions are not what lead to him being killed, so the "overcoming failures" narrative wasn't really satisfied.
.

Right, I never said it was a perfect alignment, but then Barristan Selmy is a supporting character. His choices do not drive the main action of the plot. Dany's do.

So whether Dany's fault or just bad luck, even the best fighter the world has ever seen was ill-fitted for the situation Selmy found himself in. It supports the narrative of "Winning is different from ruling." that underpins Dany's story.

It is her demise that it supports, unless she makes a change. This is one of the reasons why I think Dany is turning into the mad king, slowly but surely.

 

[Massa]

The discussion about R+L=J in the Unsullied thread is quite interesting. I was worried that they were slow playing Jon's parentage too much and that the significance of the Rhaegar exposition they included this week would be lost on non-book readers, given how far removed we are from season 1. Glad to see I was wrong. However, the discussion does illustrate one important point: the show desperately needs to do the Tower of Joy.

Would be a great opening to season 6... show the Tower of Joy, Lyanna's promise to Ned, then cut to Jon Snow opening his eyes being revived.

 

[Intheflorsh]

Right, I never said it was a perfect alignment, but then Barristan Selmy is a supporting character. His choices do not drive the main action of the plot. Dany's do.

So whether Dany's fault or just bad luck, even the best fighter the world has ever seen was ill-fitted for the situation Selmy found himself in. It supports the narrative of "Winning is different from ruling." that underpins Dany's story.

It is her demise that it supports, unless she makes a change. This is one of the reasons why I think Dany is turning into the mad king, slowly but surely.

I guess. Maybe seeing how his death resonates with Dany next episode will make it more impactful.

 

[-griffy-]

I think that it's interesting how they're portraying the High Sparrow this season. It was pretty clear in the books that Cersei was being manipulated by him into rearming them but in the show it seems it's Cersei driving it with the High Sparrow being reticent.

However, despite this fact and him seeming penitent about how the High Septim was treated, he sure went full on with the Faith Militant very quickly and even made a power play with the king, which makes me think he's more sly than he appears.

I mean, we all know that this is going to turn out badly for Cersei but I like the subtle ways that the High Sparrow's character and motivations are slightly in question.

I definitely think he's playing the game. He comes across very reasonable when talking to Cersei, which gives her the impression that she's in control. But he's just playing into that and she has no idea what she's done exactly. His demeanor, being humble and barefooted, feeding the poor, etc., is at odds with what we've seen his followers do. And it's that which has caused Cersei to feel like she is getting them to do her bidding at this point.

 

[Lothar]

Why haven't we seen the Freys yet this season? It's kind of hard to have Frey pies without Freys.

 

[Speevy]

I guess. Maybe seeing how his death resonates with Dany next episode will make it more impactful.

I have my reasons for feeling this.

Seeing his death will make her more resolved to take drastic action. Given how this show loves to show only the highlights of book events, I can see her marrying Hizdahr and opening the fighting pits as a way to show compromise.

This will lead to any number of possible outcomes in this season or the next, including a an overwhelming force of Slaver's Bay armies outside her door, flying away on Drogon, etc.

What's important it not what happens, but that it leads Danyt to questioning her own ideals and whether she really trusts her own sense of justice anymore. She can either resolve to give up on her hopes to take the iron throne, or turn to the very tactics that made the cruel conquerors she decried so successful. Having her choose the latter would make for an interesting shift to say the least, since it would .likely make Tyrion and Varys change their minds about her.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Doubt it although the show has demonstrated that its willing to go on tangents. All I'm expecting is for Mace to haplessly try to persuade the IB into giving the crown an extension on their payment which will resolve them to support Stannis maybe sending one of their guys to The Wall the same episode.

I would actually like to see a scene of Mace blustering infront of the Iron Bank. That'd be funny to watch.

 

[BobTheFork]

Why haven't we seen the Freys yet this season? It's kind of hard to have Frey pies without Freys.

Well, I think Roose's fat wife is a Frey and we saw her. I think/hope they are moving that plotline North. They can have some Frey's at Winterfell and then they start to disappear and someone from the Twins comes up to ask WTF is going on and Sansa serves them a pie.

Even if we do get that, someone just needs to set the fucking Twins on fire. I want to see the biggest pyre of Frey's the North has ever seen!