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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6 Offseason Thread

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Why are we talking about anime?

I'm not trying to invade your head space but this is a Game of Thrones thread.

In television, filler takes up time and doesn't advance the plot.
Even that I don't love, considering everything that doesn't specifically drive the plot forward as filler doesn't really fit with TV. A show can have scenes that expand upon characters without directly moving plot forward.

Obviously, there's a balance. You don't want your show be all exposition and no plot.
Hardhome was the best scene all season tbh
It might be the best action sequence in a TV show.
 

munchie64

Member
Kind of lousy for the show to spoil what happens in upcoming books. I hope this is the last time they try to deflect blame that way. Own your mistakes, don't spoil the books, and recognize that even when the plots line up in the two stories, Martin is infinitely better at creating reasons organically rather than shoving motivations in.
This is a joke post right? I'm laughing my ass off either way.
 

Ratrat

Member
Sansa/Rickon? What's that? I don't remember that from the books. If it's from leaks or pictures from the set, then I don't want to know that and find it out from this thread either. The rest are minor, no one cares about Sam, the Martells, Ironborn, and Kevan, and everyone knows about Jon.
Sansa, where is her plot going? She could be Alys Karstark or go with Brienne to find cannibal Rickon, return to the Eyrie. Basically resume her book role, assume a different characters or go on a completely original route.

Whether you think it matters won't affect the rules of the other thread though.
 
Kind of lousy for the show to spoil what happens in upcoming books. I hope this is the last time they try to deflect blame that way. Own your mistakes, don't spoil the books, and recognize that even when the plots line up in the two stories, Martin is infinitely better at creating reasons organically rather than shoving motivations in.

They wouldn't have to spoil the books if GRRM didn't look for any and every excuse NOT to write for the last 5 years. At the rate we're going, book 7 wont be out for another decade.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
This is a joke post right? I'm laughing my ass off either way.

I just think it's lame for the showrunners to spell out plot details from upcoming books considering how different the two stories are. Granted, we know Shireen is going to be handled very differently by Martin, but they shouldn't tell us her death is planned in the books as well.

They wouldn't have to spoil the books if GRRM didn't look for any and every excuse NOT to write for the last 5 years. At the rate we're going, book 7 wont be out for another decade.

And they wouldn't have anything to adapt if Martin didn't create this world.

All I'm asking is they respect book readers.
 

munchie64

Member
I just think it's lame for the showrunners to spell out plot details from upcoming books considering how different the two stories are. Granted, we know Shireen is going to be handled very differently by Martin, but they shouldn't tell us her death is planned in the books as well.
So you're arguing that they pressured George into confirming that or something similar? I'm not sure that's fair at all.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
So you're arguing that they pressured George into confirming that or something similar? I'm not sure that's fair at all.

Wait, George confirmed it? I only knew they said it in the post-episode wrap-up the night it aired and then repeated it in the Blu Ray. I didn't know George talked about.

Because he knows sales for books 6 and 7 will plummet once the show spoils them. Not that I think he gives a damn about the money, just the lack of attention.

The Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings movies didn't kill the books. Not sure why Game of Thrones would.
 

Speevy

Banned
Even that I don't love, considering everything that doesn't specifically drive the plot forward as filler doesn't really fit with TV. A show can have scenes that expand upon characters without directly moving plot forward.

Obviously, there's a balance. You don't want your show be all exposition and no plot.

It might be the best action sequence in a TV show.

To me, a scene in which two characters are just talking about something that happened to them does move the plot forward. There are of course a lot of these scenes in Game of Thrones.

Like let's say Brienne and Podrick have a conversation you know they're going to have in the first couple of episodes about how Brienne feels about having killed Stannis Baratheon.

It lets me know those characters' current mindset, and gives me some insight about how they're going to handle events in the future.

A really good example of filler in the show would be the scene when Podrick loses his virginity. It serves absolutely no purpose in the story and doesn't really tell us anything we didn't already know about any character in the show, except that apparently Pod is an awesome lover, which is funny but not at all important to anything in the world.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
Because HP7 and RotK's endings were not spoiled by the films, they came out years (decades in RotK's case) before.

i guess we'll agree to disagree here. People who read fantasy books will read A Song of Ice and Fire. I don't think the existence of the show will stop that. Sure, there are some people who would rather watch a show or movie, but there are still plenty of people who read.

And years from now, when both the show and books are done, no one will care which came out first. and Martin's name will always be linked to the story. Just like how Rowling has higher cultural status than Yates.
 
The book was written well, just bloated with all the useless new POVs, needed to be edited down, and lacked a climax because he couldn't fit it in. If you just look at POVs by themselves, Cersei's and Jon's were as great as every other POV from any of the books. Theon's, Bran's, Jaime's, Davos's, Asha's, Sansa's, Arya's, Barristan's, and Dany's were all fine. Tyrion's and Brienne's weren't good simply because of the bloat. We didn't need all of those chapters for as little as they accomplished.

When I go back and read FoC and ADWD, I skip over all the Ironborn, Dorne, Tyrion, and Brienne chapters and if you do that then I think they're pretty good reads.
The Boiled Leather/Ball of Beasts combined versions really do improve the reading.

Another proper criticism of GRRM is that he apparently writes the entirety of a POV story and then splices those together with others. So he may have finished one character's story to the end of a book, but have not even started on another's. And when he switches to writing that other character, he rereads their previous chapters (possibly, all of them) to get back into that particular voice.
 

KahooTs

Member
The Boiled Leather/Ball of Beasts combined versions really do improve the reading.

Another proper criticism of GRRM is that he apparently writes the entirety of a POV story and then splices those together with others. So he may have finished one character's story to the end of a book, but have not even started on another's. And when he switches to writing that other character, he rereads their previous chapters (possibly, all of them) to get back into that particular voice.

The results are well worth it.

By his own admission the books are not standalone stories, that AFFC or ADWD do not satisfy on their own is not a bother to him, it is the series in its entirety that he's concerned with.
 
How George's writes is kind of terrible for the sheer scope of what he's writing and probably plays a big part in why he's had so many issues post ASoS. When it comes to productivity it probably doesn't help that he searches and pecks.
 

Turin

Banned
I'm late to the Hardhome discussion but this was my favorite moment of that whole spectacle.

GOThorsemen.gif


Of course, the gif itself doesn't do the moment justice.
 

belvedere

Junior Butler
I agree with so many points here this and yet it feels more like the official whine about the show thread than anything else lately.
 

XAL

Member
In the books it is only ever mentioned and isn't of great importance. That entire scene had one purpose...

...for this, a great battle scene.

Aye.

Cool battle scene, shows how the White Walkers roll in force and Valyrian steel is indeed dragonsteel is about the only information gleamed from that.
 

Szeth

Member
In the books it is only ever mentioned and isn't of great importance. That entire scene had one purpose...

Good fucking thing this isn't the books then, eh? Good thing the scene in the TV SHOW was very important to the main plot and established some seriously important things for show viewers. No it was not filler, holy fucking shit balls.

I need that Will Ferrell Zoolander gif right about now, ugh.
 

Werd

Member
Hardhome also largely made up for glossing over the battle at the Fist of the First Men in the show. Viewers needed to actually see the large scale threat.
 
Good fucking thing this isn't the books then, eh? Good thing the scene in the TV SHOW was very important to the main plot and established some seriously important things for show viewers. No it was not filler, holy fucking shit balls.

I need that Will Ferrell Zoolander gif right about now, ugh.

What was important exactly? We learn nothing from it. It was action, not story.

edit: Valerian Steel I guess? That totally needed a massive battle.
 

FootballFan

Member
Hardhome also largely made up for glossing over the battle at the First of the First Men in the show.

That fade out and in from black was terrible. And their excuse of budget issues is and was ridiculous. Anything would have been better than nothing.

Yet the Sand Snakes and their battles give me pause.
 
There's undoubtedly some atrocious parts of the show to bitch about, but there's some great exchanges and parts that are well thought out too.

It's cooler and easier to just bitch I guess though.
Some people have hard time seperating the show from the books. I really don't get it though. Sure there are some really badly written parts, not because they are written better in the books but because they are simply bad in the TV show. If you compare like for like you're setting yourself up for disappointment. The further the show moved on the more stuff had to be cut or changed because there is only so much story you can show in a couple of hours of TV.
 

Brakke

Banned
It's kind of weird how much of antiquity there is in the last several episodes of S5. Putting out eyes always makes me think Oedipus, sacrificing a daughter for fair weather is some Agamemnon move, Jon gets Ides of Marched On.
 

NeoGiff

Member
I think Hardhome was essential and did what it set out to do in the best possible way.

In the book, we learn what happened there through hearsay and reports. The nature of reading means we get inside Jon's head and are privy to his personal reaction to the news, as the level of dread slowly rises.

In TV, it's not that easy. They made an inspired choice for Jon to go there. It does two things. One - it's as an opportunity to show Jon's leadership and drive, which they hadn't really done yet due to scenes and threads being cut. And two - it visually shows the viewer just how unbelievably horrifying this enemy force is. It was a long time coming, and it paid off.
 
This is right. The season's problems weren't the book's problems. The show was just written poorly and rushed everything that should have been important and good. Perhaps if Stannis was struggling over the decision to burn Shireen and starving in the snow for most of the season, then it would have worked. It could have made for lots of really tense, dramatic, and emotional scenes. Instead it was shock and Stannis looks evil and it comes off as stupid.

The book was written well, just bloated with all the useless new POVs, needed to be edited down, and lacked a climax because he couldn't fit it in. If you just look at POVs by themselves, Cersei's and Jon's were as great as every other POV from any of the books. Theon's, Bran's, Jaime's, Davos's, Asha's, Sansa's, Arya's, Barristan's, and Dany's were all fine. Tyrion's and Brienne's weren't good simply because of the bloat. We didn't need all of those chapters for as little as they accomplished.

When I go back and read FoC and ADWD, I skip over all the Ironborn, Dorne, Tyrion, and Brienne chapters and if you do that then I think they're pretty good reads.



It won't and it shouldn't. The show producers are idiots. Most fans do know the characters better.


The biggest problem with Brienne's chapters was that GRRM should've kept Sansa's location a mystery. Brienne's chapters were some of GRRM's best writing. The exposition, the mystery and tension were all beautifully written. Her encounter and battle with the Mummers at Cracklaw point, The Septon and Elder brother, meeting Gendry and her fight with Rorge and Biter, then meeting LSH. It's all ridiculously good! Clear your mind and go back and read her chapters.

It's worthy of a stand alone book. That was it's flaw. We wanted a quick continuation of the previous books, and GRRM gave us an amazing side story. There was bloat in the last two books but Brienne was not one of them.
 

CassSept

Member
It got better but her second chapter is inexcusable. It's written well, but her stay in Duskendale is just sleep-inducing. I think it might even be the longest chapter in the series too and completely nothing happens, the chapter is of absolutely no significance to the story and adds just little to worldbuilding because it's that hard to stay awake.

If it was supposed to show the life of war-ridden country then Arya's ACOK chapters did it better.
 

Kettch

Member
I feel like we are on the brink of a phenomenon whereby people complain about stuff in the show and blame D&D for it, and then find out it happens the same way in the books as they are eventually released.

Eh, there's been very little that happens the same way in the show and book over the last couple seasons, and I expect that to diverge even further if the show is going by outlines rather than actual material. So that situation isn't very likely to come about.

If you mean that people will complain about an event in the show, and then that same event happens in the book except with proper explanation and motivations, then sure, but that's what we already do.
 

Pluto

Member
It won't and it shouldn't. The show producers are idiots. Most fans do know the characters better.
They made a few questionable decisions and not everything they did worked, so what?
This show is a massive production, it often films with several units in different countries, the producers have to juggle a ton of storylines and they have the task to squeeze massive novels into 10 episode seasons every single year, they don't have the luxury to sit back, write when they feel like it, throw out hundreds of pages, start over and then release the product years later when it's finally finished.
GRRM only needs his brain, his computer and apparently one finger, he doesn't have to deal with schedules, actor availability, budgets etc., the tv series is a running train or possibly three running trains on parallel tracks with D&D jumping between them, the books series is GRRM's garden where he can watch the tree's he planted and tinker with everything until he likes it enough to let people in.

GRRM's character motivations may be better but I doubt that would be the case if he was told "You're finished by date x or else ...", so everyone should give D&D a break, if they had all the time in the world (both for writing and in number of episodes/seasons) I'm sure they could deliver a much more polished series, at the same time GRRM's prose would be worse if he was on a tight schedule.
 

Hystzen

Member
The worst bit about Hardhome was that dumb ending where the NK stares at Jon for what seems like years in the boat then does that come at me bro pose then rest bodies rise up.
 
The worst bit about Hardhome was that dumb ending where the NK stares at Jon for what seems like years in the boat then does that come at me bro pose then rest bodies rise up.

A little cheesy maybe, but not the worst. It was a demonstration of what he can do. I thought it was neat, the sequence makes it seem like Jon/Wildings/Night's Watch had accomplished something by getting away but that ending just shows that no matter how many times you fight the WW, they'll always win in the end.

The actual worst part(s) of Hardhome were Tormund beating that guy to death because he said he was gay when we all know Torumund is a real man or the Wildling woman (Karsi) doing the old "I'll be right behind you children" bit before biting the big one.
 

emag

Member
The worst bit about Hardhome was that dumb ending where the NK stares at Jon for what seems like years in the boat then does that come at me bro pose then rest bodies rise up.

The whole of Hardhome felt like a lazy, tropey B-grade zombie film with paper-thin cookie cutter characters and sequences. Only relative to the rest of the season was it any good; in the context of the series as a whole, it was still the worst action-oriented episode (Blackwater was best).
 

NeoGiff

Member
The whole of Hardhome felt like a lazy, tropey B-grade zombie film with paper-thin cookie cutter characters and sequences. Only relative to the rest of the season was it any good; in the context of the series as a whole, it was still the worst action-oriented episode (Blackwater was best).

nyq2Spa.gif
 
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