Support NeoGAF

[Nameless]

Also the show "character" hasn't even been referred to as Night's King in the text anywhere, I think. He was just referred to as such in some episode synopsis that HBO revised later.
.

True, but they did include a segment on The Night's King in one of the History & Lore features from the blu-rays a couple seasons back.

https://youtu.be/a2TQHjo3xzQ

Joanna Robinson also spoiled that he was a Stark decendant on a podcast, and with his interactions with Jon and now appearing in one of Bran's visions(?) I wouldn't he shocked if they were going in that direction.

 

[biosnake20]

So the exclusive clip at SXSW was

Spoiler

Melisandre telling Davos that she saw Jon fighting at Winterfell in the flames. Then Davos says he doesn't see in the flames but Jon is gone.

 

[Gigglepoo]

My theory is that Martin refers to White Walkers as Others because he's alluding to how we talk about our enemies in war. He was a conscientious objector in the '70s and there are definitely anti-war themes in A Song of Ice and Fire. If I'm right, we'll get insight on the Others in the last two books that cast them as more complex than the cold-hearted monsters we see them as now. And maybe Jon's role is important because he's willing to make peace with people everyone else fears. Should be really interesting. Certainly better than a good-vs-evil battle to decide the fate of Westeros.

I do understand why the show avoids that term, though. It was co-opted by Lost years ago.

 

[Cornballer]

S5 DVD/blu-ray are out next week. Onion A|V Club are doing a giveaway in case anyone is interested. Also, Watchers have a review and another giveaway.

 

[Lothar]

Do you think this season will be as dark and as twisted as Season 5?

I've said this many times before and I've never seen a good defense against it: the worst part about Season 5 was that it was non-stop horrible stuff happening. Dorne is such a minor issue compared to this. There was no heart. It felt like everything they did was to either shock or troll the audience. It made it really unenjoyable to watch. Even if you take out Shirreen getting burned, it would have been too much. And showing a child getting burned was the worst thing they've done on the show.

FoC and ADWD felt for the most part like a reprieve from horrible things happening. Most of the main characters were relatively safe. You could root for Stannis the whole way. There was a northern conspiracy. Freys were dying. Barristan was taking charge. Jaime was turning against Cersei and trying to end the fighting peacefully. It looked like things were turning. There was a lot to hope for. Season 5 was a bizarre adaptation of that.

Even in the season where the Red Wedding happened, Dany got a army, conquered cities, and freed slaves. Jaime became a likable character, became friends with Brienne, and rescued her from a bear. Davos helped Gendry escape and not get burned alive. These were huge positive moments.

In Season 5, there were no big positive moments like that. Arya's mercy chapter was cathartic. However, in the show, the same scene ended with her being blind, so it ended up being another downer. The people I was watching the show with actually asked me if Theon and Sansa committed suicide. And the same thing was being discussed here. You could feel good about the Walk of Shame in the books since Cersei just got finished torturing a person and sending numerous people to Qyburn. In the show, the Walk of Shame was another sad moment because Cersei is sympathetic. Jon being commander was not presented as a big deal as it was in the books. Stannis dying could have been cathartic but they didn't even show it. It was all just fucking miserable.

 

[Brakke]

Been rewatching S5 in prep for new season. Dudes. Hardhome is so fucking good.

Wikipedia says dude what directed Hardhome has 9 and 10 for Season 6.

Color me hyped.

 

[NeoGiff]

Been rewatching S5 in prep for new season. Dudes. Hardhome is so fucking good.

Wikipedia says dude what directed Hardhome has 9 and 10 for Season 6.

Color me hyped.

I rewatched Hardhome yesterday too. I remembered it was good, but I couldn't believe how good. It's bloody incredible that it's a single TV episode in a ten episode season.

 

[Apt101]

I kind of wish one could purchase the bluray extras without having to get the entire set; now that I have HBO Now I don't need the blurays, but I still want to watch the extras.

 

[GasProblem]

I think I'm going to subscribe to HBO, it's €7,50 a month for the first four months so that's good. I saw season 1 and own the DVD and a bit of 2, but I really want to go through all the seasons and join the hype for season 6. I read all the books but I'm getting tired of waiting for Winds of Winter. Can't wait The plotlines are different enough to enjoy both the books and the series.

Kind of sucks there's no HBO GO app for PS4 here. And HBO doesn't have The Wire here. I want to watch that but I'll probably never will. Oh well.

 

[Apt101]

I think I'm going to subscribe to HBO, it's €7,50 a month for the first four months so that's good. I saw season 1 and own the DVD and a bit of 2, but I really want to go through all the seasons and join the hype for season 6. I read all the books but I'm getting tired of waiting for Winds of Winter. Can't wait The plotlines are different enough to enjoy both the books and the series.

Kind of sucks there's no HBO GO app for PS4 here. And HBO doesn't have The Wire here. I want to watch that but I'll probably never will. Oh well.

The Wire is on Amazon Prime here in the 'States. Is it the same over there? It's also on iTunes.

 

[Brakke]

I rewatched Hardhome yesterday too. I remembered it was good, but I couldn't believe how good. It's bloody incredible that it's a single TV episode in a ten episode season.

Like. I don't want to oversell it and all but. I've been rewatching the season as background nose while working on other projects. Even well before the actual battle at Hardhome I had to set aside distractions and buckle in.

 

[GasProblem]

The Wire is on Amazon Prime here in the 'States. Is it the same over there? It's also on iTunes.

Hmm, never used iTunes and Amazon doesn't really have a presence in the Netherlands, they only sell ebooks, that's it.

 

[DeadOnions]

Hardhome is top tier television and for me was the one saving grace of season 5.

 

[Atraveller]

Not in a hurry to pick up the bluray, Hardhome doesn't justify the price IMO.

 

[NeoGiff]

I've always preordered the blurays on Amazon as soon as they became available in years past. I haven't gone near the season 5 one yet...

 

[waveuponwave]

There were quite a few weird adaptation choices in S 5.

Like the sparrows. In the books, while they were fanatics, you could see where they were coming from and enjoy Cersei getting her comeuppance. And the Walk of Shame seemed like a turning point, when you noticed, wait, this has gone too far and is actually awful.

The show robbed them of all their nuance by turning them into a cult of brainwashed zombies that appeared out of nowhere (The High Sparrow was great, though)


It's a shame the showrunners increasingly seem to think Big Shock Moments (tm) should be the only thing GoT is about

 

[zer0das]

I'll never understand GOT critics. Cersei is a horrible human being and got what she deserved, I fully expect their entire house to be in ashes because of her and Jaime at the end of this. Except Tyrion, as the extra salt in the Cersei wound. Also will make Joeffery making fun of Jaime's legacy funny in retrospect.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Hardhome was definitely brilliant. That was the first time in years I truly loved something on the show.

 

[Massa]

So the exclusive clip at SXSW was

Spoiler

Melisandre telling Davos that she saw Jon fighting at Winterfell in the flames. Then Davos says he doesn't see in the flames but Jon is gone.

So, do we think Mel will have Davos stab her in the chest with Jon's sword to bring him back? That would fit with her strip clip in the trailer.

 

[Oldest Snake]

I'll never understand GOT critics. Cersei is a horrible human being and got what she deserved, I fully expect their entire house to be in ashes because of her and Jaime at the end of this. Except Tyrion, as the extra salt in the Cersei wound. Also will make Joeffery making fun of Jaime's legacy funny in retrospect.

The show has made Cersei a lot more sympathetic compared to her book counterpart and it makes what happened to her in season seem sort of spiteful. I don't really think anyone 'deserves' to be stripped and slut-shamed in the streets by a group of religious nutters regardless of how horrible a person is.

She's actively protecting Tommen in the show and Marg straight up tells Cersei that because she's fucking her underage son Cersei is no longer necessary in his life. When she gives that power to the Faith they immediately turn into ISIS and start abusing their power.

 

[RaidenZR]

That's from an article based on this quote in the comments on his blog:

EDIT: He's responding to this question:

Huh, never read any of that before so thanks for digging it up. Pretty damn interesting.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

I don't think Martin's writing speed is to blame. It's his schedule. He has simply refused to sit down and finish, instead opting to milk his fame for every ounce of its benefit. He finished Dance after ending a convention tour schedule, for instance. And after Dance was released he spent the entire year touring.

I wouldn't criticize him for taking a long break after Dance and enjoying a tour...but afterwards he should have started Winds. It almost certainly would have been finished if he gave himself time to write it.

Honestly it just seems like he's not really interested in finishing as quickly as he could and would rather do other things. It reminds me of when I was a freshman in college. Living on campus, access to transportation, the ability to explore a city, chase women...basically the ability to do everything except my homework/study. And then midterms arrive and you realize you're far behind. But of course I didn't have a blog at the time so I couldn't post about my fuck up and have thousands of people tell me it's alright lol.

 

[Speevy]

I hope they give Hodor some scenes this season and it's not just Bran talking.

 

[biosnake20]

So supposedly in the S5 Blu Ray GRRM confirms that it was always his intention for

Spoiler

Stannis and Melisandre to sacrifice Shireen to the God of Light.

This is coming from the episode commentaries.

Some other really interesting tidbits:

Character Spoiler:

Spoiler

"Bryan Cogman says that an I, Claudius thing is going on with Lord Mace Tyrell (Roger Ashton-Griffiths), who is only pretending to be a useless buffoon at court as a survival tactic. His mother, Lady Olenna (Dame Diana Rigg), says different."

"The reason Drogon could be so badly injured in the Fighting Pits is that he’s just an adolescent dragon. His impenetrable adult scales haven’t come in yet, the poor thing. If you want to know how big a fully grown dragon is, look at the dragon skull Arya hides in in season one."

"According to Bryan Cogman, there’s a reference to Ned Stark at least once in every episode since he died."

"That scene, in which Dany has her dragons kill a man, was originally written in English but the showrunners decided they wanted it in Valyrian (apparently that’s the language Dany speaks whenever she does something nasty. Actor Emilia Clarke pulled together the Valyrian she’d spoken in the past and riffed a translation in around ten minutes."

"As no major characters were located there, originally, there were no plans to go to Dorne in season five, until Bryan Cogman came up with the idea of sending two established characters there and pairing Jaime up with Bronn."

 

[Ratrat]

So supposedly in the S5 Blu Ray GRRM confirms that it was always his intention for

Spoiler

Stannis and Melisandre to sacrifice Shireen to the God of Light.

This is coming from the episode commentaries.

Some other really interesting tidbits:

Bryan Cogman says that an I, Claudius thing is going on with Lord Mace Tyrell (Roger Ashton-Griffiths), who is only pretending to be a useless buffoon at court as a survival tactic. His mother, Lady Olenna (Dame Diana Rigg), says different.

"The reason Drogon could be so badly injured in the Fighting Pits is that he’s just an adolescent dragon. His impenetrable adult scales haven’t come in yet, the poor thing. If you want to know how big a fully grown dragon is, look at the dragon skull Arya hides in in season one."

"According to Bryan Cogman, there’s a reference to Ned Stark at least once in every episode since he died."

"That scene, in which Dany has her dragons kill a man, was originally written in English but the showrunners decided they wanted it in Valyrian (apparently that’s the language Dany speaks whenever she does something nasty. Actor Emilia Clarke pulled together the Valyrian she’d spoken in the past and riffed a translation in around ten minutes."

That was never contested. It was just the way it happened.

 

[Speevy]

 

[John Dunbar]

That was never contested. It was just the way it happened.

i'm pretty sure it has been,

Spoiler

since shireen is not with stannis in the books. i've seen a lot of people argue that shireen would get burned by her mom and/or mel, without stannis' consent.

 

[Moff]

many people said stannis would never burn his daughter, not just how it happened.
she is is heir after all, all for nothing yada yada

but the GRRM quote says stannis and melisandre, so it might still just be melisandre in the book, without stannis' knowledge

 

[Ratrat]

i'm pretty sure it has been,

Spoiler

since shireen is not with stannis in the books. i've seen a lot of people argue that shireen would get burned by her mom and/or mel, without stannis' consent.

Spoiler

Hence 'way it happened'. If it happens in the books it will be quite a bit later under different circumstances. The situation created in the show did not make the sacrifice sensible and was just really badly executed.

many people said stannis would never burn his daughter, not just how it happened.
she is is heir after all, all for nothing yada yada

but the GRRM quote says stannis and melisandre, so it might still just be melisandre in the book, without stannis' knowledge

Perhaps they meant he would never sacrifice his heir to change the weather.

 

[John Dunbar]

Spoiler

Hence 'way it happened'. If it happens in the books it will be quite a bit later under different circumstances. The situation created in the show did not make the sacrifice sensible and was just really badly executed.

Perhaps they meant he would never sacrifice his heir to change the weather.

Spoiler

not arguing about the execution, just saying that there have been plenty of people who have argued that stannis would have nothing to do with it. grrm confirming that stannis will be involved is definitely news.

 

[NeoGiff]

Spoiler

not arguing about the execution, just saying that there have been plenty of people who have argued that stannis would have nothing to do with it. grrm confirming that stannis will be involved is definitely news.

It could end up being similar to the Renly situation. Stannis gives Mel the go ahead to "do what needs to be done" without fully realising the implications.

 

[Ratrat]

Spoiler

not arguing about the execution, just saying that there have been plenty of people who have argued that stannis would have nothing to do with it. grrm confirming that stannis will be involved is definitely news.

Come on. There are circumstances that Grrm can create that no reader would have guessed. The point is it would have to be massive or it will feel just as bad and out of character as the show. So far the books haven't approached that level of desperation on Stannis' part. The whole Azor Ahai thing alludes to such a thing happening, but theres other nonsense about greyscale or Patchface so who knows what will actually happen.

Basically, with what we know and are at presently, yes, it can't really happen.

 

[Ithil]

Yeah, iirc they are the same thing, just two different names. They were referred to as "others" in the original pilot script as they are commonly referred to in the books, but then that became popularized by Lost, so they decided to use White Walkers and scrap using Others.

Probably for the best imo, it's more distinct.

I'd prefer to stick with volunteers that I'll list in the OP, rather than invite people to enter the minefield to ask a question.

Anyone that wants to volunteer for that, just shoot me a PM and I'll note to link your profile in the unsullied thread.

The one thing that's confusing is that White Walkers and wights were not explained particularly clearly in the show, given they're pronounced the same, I've seen a lot of show only watchers who were confused on which was which, or whether they were the same.

I think distinctly showing the White Walkers in recent seasons has lessened that as they're clearly separate creatures from the wights, but still.

 

[-griffy-]

I feel like we are on the brink of a phenomenon whereby people complain about stuff in the show and blame D&D for it, and then find out it happens the same way in the books as they are eventually released.

 

[Ithil]

I sincerely doubt things like Shireen's burning would happen "the same way" in the books compared to the show.

 

[John Dunbar]

Come on. There are circumstances that Grrm can create that no reader would have guessed. The point is it would have to be massive or it will feel just as bad and out of character as the show. So far the books haven't approached that level of desperation on Stannis' part. The whole Azor Ahai thing alludes to such a thing happening, but theres other nonsense about greyscale or Patchface so who knows what will actually happen.

Basically, with what we know and are at presently, yes, it can't really happen.

nothing you're saying here really has anything to do with your original statement. of course it's almost certain it will not play out in the books as it did on the show, but just stannis' involvement being confirmed would refute several theories on shireen's fate.

 

[Ratrat]

I feel like we are on the brink of a phenomenon whereby people complain about stuff in the show and blame D&D for it, and then find out it happens the same way in the books as they are eventually released.

Since it can't happen like that with Shireen, what instances were you thinking of? It would be funny to see Mel, Shireen and Selyse teleport to Stannis so he can kill her and then die 10 pages later.

nothing you're saying here really has anything to do with your original statement. of course it's almost certain it will not play out in the books as it did on the show, but just stannis' involvement being confirmed would refute several theories on shireen's fate.

Well, when people say it can't happen, they mean it either couldn't under the circumstances or that its against his character. I dont think either are wrong, but both can change depending on what comes next. I think saying it wouldn't happen in that specific moment in the show is different than denying possible theories of a book years out.

 

[-griffy-]

Since it can't happen like that with Shireen, what instances were you thinking of? It would be funny to see Mel, Shireen and Selyse teleport to Stannis so he can kill her and then die 10 pages later.

Like, any thing that happens in the remaining seasons.

 

[adamsappel]

I don't think Martin's writing speed is to blame. It's his schedule. He has simply refused to sit down and finish, instead opting to milk his fame for every ounce of its benefit. He finished Dance after ending a convention tour schedule, for instance. And after Dance was released he spent the entire year touring.

I wouldn't criticize him for taking a long break after Dance and enjoying a tour...but afterwards he should have started Winds. It almost certainly would have been finished if he gave himself time to write it.

Honestly it just seems like he's not really interested in finishing as quickly as he could and would rather do other things. It reminds me of when I was a freshman in college. Living on campus, access to transportation, the ability to explore a city, chase women...basically the ability to do everything except my homework/study. And then midterms arrive and you realize you're far behind. But of course I didn't have a blog at the time so I couldn't post about my fuck up and have thousands of people tell me it's alright lol.

You also didn't have thousands of people calling you a lazy fat fuck who owed them some entertainment. Every time I read success-shaming of GRRM, I want him to take another vacation. There are a lot of things to task him for (one-fingered typing on an ancient non-portable computer is valid), but I won't begrudge a writer enjoying his deserved fame.

I don't even understand why people have been so insistent on having TWOW before the 6th season. That's only putting off the same argument for a year, and D&D would probably still be spoiling/inventing things from future unwritten books.

So supposedly in the S5 Blu Ray GRRM confirms that it was always his intention for

Spoiler

Stannis and Melisandre to sacrifice Shireen to the God of Light.

Usually when an episode ends, there's a preview for what's coming next on HBO, or some "Go behind the scenes of Game of Thrones online" commercial. After that episode, the credits had barely faded before D&D were there with, "We couldn't believe that George burned Shireen in the book!" It's going to happen, as is Stannis' death (I think the Pink Letter is true), but it will at least be developed in the books.

 

[Moff]

Perhaps they meant he would never sacrifice his heir to change the weather.

that's the one point I always thought would be straight from the book. that's way too subtle for D&D, they would let meteors rain.
something subtle like changing the weather so the army would survive, that's smart. I doubt they would come up with that themselves.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Character Spoiler:

Spoiler

"Bryan Cogman says that an I, Claudius thing is going on with Lord Mace Tyrell (Roger Ashton-Griffiths), who is only pretending to be a useless buffoon at court as a survival tactic. His mother, Lady Olenna (Dame Diana Rigg), says different."

Hah, Mace is so fun.

"According to Bryan Cogman, there’s a reference to Ned Stark at least once in every episode since he died."

That's impressive.

 

[Szeth]

God this thread is embarrassing. The amount of damage control to shit on D&D and defend GRRM is unreal. Seriously can't wait for the show to start so I can move over to the other one.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Kind of lousy for the show to spoil what happens in upcoming books. I hope this is the last time they try to deflect blame that way. Own your mistakes, don't spoil the books, and recognize that even when the plots line up in the two stories, Martin is infinitely better at creating reasons organically rather than shoving motivations in.

 

[NeoGiff]

God this thread is embarrassing. The amount of damage control to shit on D&D and defend GRRM is unreal. Seriously can't wait for the show to start so I can move over to the other one.

And will you be posting in the other one? If so, you'll either have to be dishonest with your impressions, or face a ban for spoilers.

 

[Lothar]

I feel like we are on the brink of a phenomenon whereby people complain about stuff in the show and blame D&D for it, and then find out it happens the same way in the books as they are eventually released.

It's impossible for it to happen the same way. In the same situation, Stannis just sent orders that if he dies to crown Shirreen. Meliasandre isn't around to make him change his mind.

God this thread is embarrassing. The amount of damage control to shit on D&D and defend GRRM is unreal. Seriously can't wait for the show to start so I can move over to the other one.

Ha, jokes on you. If you're a book reader, you can't post there. You're stuck with us. I've been banned for innocent posts over there trying to help people out. Also, D & D deserve to be shit on. See my previous post.

 

[Szeth]

And will you be posting in the other one? If so, you'll either have to be dishonest with your impressions, or face a ban for spoilers.

Yes. It's gotten to the point where we're all just watching the show on equal footing now, there's nothing to spoil.

 

[-griffy-]

It's impossible for it to happen the same way. In the same situation, Stannis just sent orders that if he dies to crown Shirreen. Meliasandre isn't around to make him change his mind.

I'm not talking about the one thing, I'm talking about a potential ongoing phenomenon for the remainder of the show until the books are done. The Shireen thing is like a preview of the potential. Feels like an inevitability it's gonna happen going forward.

 

[Ratrat]

that's the one point I always thought would be straight from the book. that's way too subtle for D&D, they would let meteors rain.
something subtle like changing the weather so the army would survive, that's smart. I doubt they would come up with that themselves.

That might have been better. Snow melting overnight and the ground dry is silly even by Grrms standards.

 

[NeoGiff]

Yes. It's gotten to the point where we're all just watching the show on equal footing now, there's nothing to spoil.

There's plenty to spoil.

 

[Lothar]

I'm not talking about the one thing, I'm talking about a potential ongoing phenomenon for the remainder of the show until the books are done. The Shireen thing is like a preview of the potential. Feels like an inevitability it's gonna happen going forward.

But when people complain about the Stannis scene, it's because it doesn't make sense for him to make such a quick decision to extinguish his line to change the weather and it ruins the character. He barely even questioned Melisandre when she initially brought it up. He just said "There has to be another way." He didn't really struggle over the decision. That made him look more evil than Ramsay. I'm sure when GRRM does it, it will make sense and not ruin the character.