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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6 Offseason Thread

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P

Partition

Banned
Not sure if it's been discussed but Nutter said he won't be returning for s6 due to an injury. I think this could be a good thing, give the last two episodes to whoever did Hardhome.
 
J

Joe

Member
Ok, so around half-way through book 1 there is a Sansa chapter where Ned says he is getting a boat to sail Sansa and Arya and the boat is called the 'Wind Witch'.

Next chapter is a Ned chapter where he confronts Cersei and the chapter ends with Ned sitting under a "black-blue" sky.

Is there any foreshadowing or clues with "wind witch" and "black-blue" going on here or is it nothing at all?
Most likely nothing.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
Partition said:
Not sure if it's been discussed but Nutter said he won't be returning for s6 due to an injury. I think this could be a good thing, give the last two episodes to whoever did Hardhome.
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Jeremy Pondeswa...aitt I've made a mistake NOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
 
S

Sean C

Member
Stallion Dan said:
It isn't against the vows to have sex. No marriage or children allowed, but nothing about sex.

Pretty sure it is mentioned and well known many brothers sneak off to mole-town to get their end away.
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Yes, it is against the vows to have sex. "I will take no wife and father no children" is a vow of chastity. Sam's proposition that it just means literally what it says is nonsensical nitpicking of the exact words over the spirit and intent as it has been understood for thousands of years.

Indeed, as you note, people "sneak" off, because most people, particularly the criminals, don't take the vows seriously. But Sam is supposed to.
 
P

Paganmoon

Member
Sean C said:
Yes, it is against the vows to have sex. "I will take no wife and father no children" is a vow of chastity. Sam's proposition that it just means literally what it says is nonsensical nitpicking of the exact words over the spirit and intent as it has been understood for thousands of years.

Indeed, as you note, people "sneak" off, because most people, particularly the criminals, don't take the vows seriously. But Sam is supposed to.
Click to expand...

Or it could've have literally meant "no wife, and no children" a thousand years ago, but got interpreted into "no sex" by some overzealous Lord Commander.

I actually agree with Sam on this, no wife and no children makes sense, since you have no family, after you join the nights watch. No sex is just too much to ask of people.
 
S

Syder

Member
Speevy said:
They should straight up start next season with the Tower of Joy. No explanation, young actors, baby being taken away.
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I know this fan theory is now taken as gospel by most, and I think it will turn out to be true, but I really, really don't want the show confirming it before the book.

I'm still a little bit annoyed about Shireen and Stannis being unimportant to the ASOIAF end-game being pretty much confirmed by the show.
 
M

Massa

Member
Syder said:
I know this fan theory is now taken as gospel by most, and I think it will turn out to be true, but I really, really don't want the show confirming it before the book.

I'm still a little bit annoyed about Shireen and Stannis being unimportant to the ASOIAF end-game being pretty much confirmed by the show.
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I think people give a lot more weight to "end-game" than GRRM, he seems more interested in telling interesting stories in the universe than anything like that. Stannis was a great character in many ways without having to do anything "significant".
 
C

Cornballer

Member
- Watchers: Game of Thrones ratings review: Season five edition
The new chart:
OtNv1Yb.png
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Discussion via the link.
Click to expand...
 
I

Iksenpets

Banned
Syder said:
I know this fan theory is now taken as gospel by most, and I think it will turn out to be true, but I really, really don't want the show confirming it before the book.

I'm still a little bit annoyed about Shireen and Stannis being unimportant to the ASOIAF end-game being pretty much confirmed by the show.
Click to expand...

Eh, I don't think there's too much spoilery there. Stannis dies and Shireen burns are pretty much confirmed, but most people thought both of those things would happen eventually, and I think the circumstances behind both are going to be completely different in the books. The show gives three "spoilers" for Stannis, but they basically can't all be true.

1. Stannis burns Shireen.
2. Stannis loses the battle against the Boltons.
3. Stannis is killed by Brienne.

But Brienne and Shireen are both hundreds of miles away from him, in opposite directions. He pretty much has to survive against the Boltons to ever be in a position to intersect with either of them again. My guess is that Stannis wins the battle, but Mel and Selyse burn Shireen back at Castle Black in response to the Pink Letter. Mel escapes to do whatever her future plot is, while Selyse is eventually executed for the crime, possibly by hanging, in an echo of the show scene. Then Stannis continues south, where at some point his campaign intersects with Brienne and he's killed. They basically just moved Brienne up North and Shireen into Stannis' camp so that all of that could happen together, and then had Stannis lose so they could free up his screen time for season six, and they can just use the northern lords and/or Littlefinger to take out the Boltons a bit later.

I don't think you can really extrapolate how much importance may or may not be there for him in the future; given how much they've been willing to change, I think they'd be perfectly willing to write out future Stannis events and hand them over to other characters to free up screen time for all the new stuff they still have to introduce.
 
MudoSkills

MudoSkills

Volcano High Alumnus (Cum Laude)
Book reader here. I don't have the channel that GoT airs on in the UK so I waited for it to finish, bought it on iTunes, and watched the whole series over the past few days.

Fucking hell.

Several surprises this series. Stannis dying is huge, and the scene where he sacrificed Shireen was harrowing - I wasn't expecting either of them.
 
M

munchie64

Member
Man that casting news sounds awesome. Can't wait for season 6 already. The last 3 episodes of season 5 show how good this show can be and I hope it continues.
 
L

Lothar

Banned
munchie64 said:
Man that casting news sounds awesome. Can't wait for season 6 already. The last 3 episodes of season 5 show how good this show can be and I hope it continues.
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Really? I was liking and I think very defensive of the show for the first 8 episodes. The last two killed it for me. Everything was rushed in the finale except for Cersei and Arya's scenes - the only two scenes I liked. I thought for sure they had something better planned for Sansa. After all that focus with Sansa and Theon, they just get a quick 2 minute scene at the end. No Theon heart tree scene. I thought for sure they had something better planned for Brienne. After waiting for a candle and Sansa not being able to light it, I thought for sure she'd have enough sense to attempt a rescue, but no. They ruined Stannis's character. He comes off as so dumb for no realizing that the non believing part of his army would abandon him. In the book, he does realize it and that's why he refused to burn anybody. The Shireen burning scene seems all the more unnecessary and mean (to the audience) since Stannis was just discarded as quick as possible in the very next episode. Jon's final scene lacks the power of the books now that he's not trying to save his sister, and that's not what finally made him break his vows. It would have been more believable and made for the better story for the Night's Watch to see that as the final straw.
 
M

munchie64

Member
Lothar said:
Really? I was liking and I think very defensive of the show for the first 8 episodes. The last two killed it for me. Everything was rushed in the finale except for Cersei and Arya's scenes - the only two scenes I liked. I thought for sure they had something better planned for Sansa. After all that focus with Sansa and Theon, they just get a quick 2 minute scene at the end. No Theon heart tree scene. I thought for sure they had something better planned for Brienne. After waiting for a candle and Sansa not being able to light it, I thought for sure she'd have enough sense to attempt a rescue, but no. They ruined Stannis's character. He comes off as so dumb for no realizing that the non believing part of his army would abandon him. In the book, he does realize it and that's why he refused to burn anybody. The Shireen burning scene seems all the more unnecessary and mean (to the audience) since Stannis was just discarded as quick as possible in the very next episode. Jon's final scene lacks the power of the books now that he's not trying to save his sister, and that's not what finally made him break his vows. It would have been more believable and made for the better story for the Night's Watch to see that as the final straw.
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Eh, I'm not too fussed about what didn't happened. I just see a lot of potential in what is to come. I get what you're saying though. (Sorry I wasn't as specific as you in what I'm saying :p)
Atraveller said:
Then blame him for the shit show writers did. And we have no way to correct them because "STOP BRINGING UP THE BOOKS JEEZ"
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Don't know why you guys care about stuff like that tbh.
 
S

Stallion Dan

Member
What with the hate about the "Oysters, clams and cockles". Have some of you never been to a market?


Sean C said:
Yes, it is against the vows to have sex. "I will take no wife and father no children" is a vow of chastity. Sam's proposition that it just means literally what it says is nonsensical nitpicking of the exact words over the spirit and intent as it has been understood for thousands of years.

Indeed, as you note, people "sneak" off, because most people, particularly the criminals, don't take the vows seriously. But Sam is supposed to.
Click to expand...

If you want to argue the intent, I already commented on this.

The vows are there to make sure no man has his loyalty split between family or anything else, and to make sure is no privilage in the Night's Watch (like could be given to a son).
Click to expand...
 
S

Syder

Member
Iksenpets said:
Eh, I don't think there's too much spoilery there. Stannis dies and Shireen burns are pretty much confirmed, but most people thought both of those things would happen eventually, and I think the circumstances behind both are going to be completely different in the books. The show gives three "spoilers" for Stannis, but they basically can't all be true.

1. Stannis burns Shireen.
2. Stannis loses the battle against the Boltons.
3. Stannis is killed by Brienne.

But Brienne and Shireen are both hundreds of miles away from him, in opposite directions. He pretty much has to survive against the Boltons to ever be in a position to intersect with either of them again. My guess is that Stannis wins the battle, but Mel and Selyse burn Shireen back at Castle Black in response to the Pink Letter. Mel escapes to do whatever her future plot is, while Selyse is eventually executed for the crime, possibly by hanging, in an echo of the show scene. Then Stannis continues south, where at some point his campaign intersects with Brienne and he's killed. They basically just moved Brienne up North and Shireen into Stannis' camp so that all of that could happen together, and then had Stannis lose so they could free up his screen time for season six, and they can just use the northern lords and/or Littlefinger to take out the Boltons a bit later.

I don't think you can really extrapolate how much importance may or may not be there for him in the future; given how much they've been willing to change, I think they'd be perfectly willing to write out future Stannis events and hand them over to other characters to free up screen time for all the new stuff they still have to introduce.
Click to expand...
Brienne kills The Hound in the show, this doesn't happen in the book. There's no reason why we should expect Brienne to kill Stannis in the book. The trajectory Brienne has taken in the show also has repercussions for other storylines the book makes seem important. Baelish chooses to court the favour of the Boltons by helping Roose marry the newly legitimised, Ramsay to Sansa. In the book, Baelish seeks to unite The Riverlands and The Vale by marrying Sansa to Harrold Hardyng, the designated heir to The Eyrie, after the sickly, orphaned Robert Arryn. This Alliance would then be capable of reclaiming The North for Sansa's cause. Now we know that just because Littlefinger says something it doesn't mean he's going to do it. Will the show still take a similar trajectory now that Sansa has presumably escaped the Boltons' clutches? As a reader of the books, I was looking forward to seeing what Sansa marrying into the Vale could have done for the story.

This also could possibly affect the as yet unknown fate of Jon Snow. In the books, 'Arya' is en route to be reunited with Jon on the orders of Stannis whilst Theon is a prisoner of his. With Stannis dead in the show and Sansa and Theon assumed to be alive and following a similar trajectory will we now see the pair be en route to arrive at Castle Black just in time for a reunion with the newly resurrected Jon Snow at the hands of Melisandre?

Book Stannis is quite a bit different to Show Stannis and we haven't really been given much reason to think he'd kill Shireen. While now a follower of R'hllor, Stannis is a proud Baratheon who sees it as his duty to put himself on, or ensure that his daughter is seated on, the Iron Throne. Out of the three bullet points you outlined I see Stannis losing to the Bolton's the most likely.. and yet, still unlikely. There has been much speculation over what will happen in the Battle of Ice and some fan theories suggest Stannis, a skilled strategist, will overcome the Boltons.
 
S

Sean C

Member
Stallion Dan said:
If you want to argue the intent, I already commented on this.
Click to expand...
Thousands of years of practice say otherwise. In a society where sex outside of marriage is formally considered sinful and contraception is not widely available (seemingly; "moon tea" showed up midway through the books, but there's no mention of it in the first few, where tons of prostitutes who you would think wouldn't want kids have them), the only way to guarantee having no children is to not have sex.
 
C

Confidence Man

Member
Syder said:
Brienne kills The Hound in the show, this doesn't happen in the book. There's no reason why we should expect Brienne to kill Stannis in the book. The trajectory Brienne has taken in the show also has repercussions for other storylines the book makes seem important. Baelish chooses to court the favour of the Boltons by helping Roose marry the newly legitimised, Ramsay to Sansa. In the book, Baelish seeks to unite The Riverlands and The Vale by marrying Sansa to Harrold Hardyng, the designated heir to The Eyrie, after the sickly, orphaned Robert Arryn. This Alliance would then be capable of reclaiming The North for Sansa's cause. Now we know that just because Littlefinger says something it doesn't mean he's going to do it. Will the show still take a similar trajectory now that Sansa has presumably escaped the Boltons' clutches? As a reader of the books, I was looking forward to seeing what Sansa marrying into the Vale could have done for the story.

This also could possibly affect the as yet unknown fate of Jon Snow. In the books, 'Arya' is en route to be reunited with Jon on the orders of Stannis whilst Theon is a prisoner of his. With Stannis dead in the show and Sansa and Theon assumed to be alive and following a similar trajectory will we now see the pair be en route to arrive at Castle Black just in time for a reunion with the newly resurrected Jon Snow at the hands of Melisandre?

Book Stannis is quite a bit different to Show Stannis and we haven't really been given much reason to think he'd kill Shireen. While now a follower of R'hllor, Stannis is a proud Baratheon who sees it as his duty to put himself on, or ensure that his daughter is seated on, the Iron Throne. Out of the three bullet points you outlined I see Stannis losing to the Bolton's the most likely.. and yet, still unlikely. There has been much speculation over what will happen in the Battle of Ice and some fan theories suggest Stannis, a skilled strategist, will overcome the Boltons.
Click to expand...

And the Boltons are in really bad shape if I recall. They're basically stuck in Winterfell freezing with no food, allies that hate them, and their men are getting killed off. They didn't seem much better off than Stannis as I remember it.
 
E

elrechazado

Banned
Sean C said:
Thousands of years of practice say otherwise. In a society where sex outside of marriage is formally considered sinful and contraception is not widely available (seemingly; "moon tea" showed up midway through the books, but there's no mention of it in the first few, where tons of prostitutes who you would think wouldn't want kids have them), the only way to guarantee having no children is to not have sex.
Click to expand...
"Moisten the belly"
 
S

Speevy

Banned
Lothar said:
Really? I was liking and I think very defensive of the show for the first 8 episodes. The last two killed it for me. Everything was rushed in the finale except for Cersei and Arya's scenes - the only two scenes I liked. I thought for sure they had something better planned for Sansa. After all that focus with Sansa and Theon, they just get a quick 2 minute scene at the end. No Theon heart tree scene. I thought for sure they had something better planned for Brienne. After waiting for a candle and Sansa not being able to light it, I thought for sure she'd have enough sense to attempt a rescue, but no. They ruined Stannis's character. He comes off as so dumb for no realizing that the non believing part of his army would abandon him. In the book, he does realize it and that's why he refused to burn anybody. The Shireen burning scene seems all the more unnecessary and mean (to the audience) since Stannis was just discarded as quick as possible in the very next episode. Jon's final scene lacks the power of the books now that he's not trying to save his sister, and that's not what finally made him break his vows. It would have been more believable and made for the better story for the Night's Watch to see that as the final straw.
Click to expand...


I think they didn't do enough with Stannis in past seasons. Had they done more with him than just standing in a hallway at Dragonstone, they might have had a proper buildup to Shireen's death.
 
B

biosnake20

Member
NeoGiff said:
I was just about to say this. All in all, it's looking good. Can the Dorne shitshow be redeemed? We'll have to wait and see.

Edit: I was thinking about this yesterday, but the events of today have confirmed it: I enjoy the off-season a lot more than the on-season. There's something really exciting about all of the rampant speculation, only for our dicks to rapidly go flaccid when we see the final product.
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Off-season is a ton of fun and I think this one will be the best so far because there are so many unknowns. When they do another casting video this thread will explode. On-season is never as good because the shit we make up in our heads is just too ridiculous lol.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
Confidence Man said:
And the Boltons are in really bad shape if I recall. They're basically stuck in Winterfell freezing with no food, allies that hate them, and their men are getting killed off. They didn't seem much better off than Stannis as I remember it.
Click to expand...

Once the show cut the Manderlys though, they really had no choice but to give all the misery to Stannis.


The show presents the idea that marching with an army towards any conquest is an arduous affair that is unlikely to succeed unless you have reliable allies, supplies, and good weather.

I heard someone argue in another discussion or a Youtube video that the battle of Winterfell was meant to be a messy affair, with the outcome pretty much a loss for everyone involved.

It's not surprising then that the showrunners said "Well, that's a confusing way to begin season 6. Let's rout Stannis' army."

In the Battle of Blackwater, the Lannister forces were portrayed on the show as being downright afraid of Stannis, and this was after they destroyed his fleet. Ramsay Bolton is a character of vicious boldness who doesn't fear his own death, and was willing to ride right over the meager group. Also, they probably ran out of money for staging a cavalry battle.
 
M

munchie64

Member
Atraveller said:
Yes, he's not perfect, but I hate seeing him becoming the scapegoat of all things wrong in this season.
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I mean, obviously if people are being rude it's fair to say something, but from someone saying "Damn you GRRM for burning Shireen" it just doesn't concern me as much.
But I guess I should clarify that I meant that it's not worth (possibly) risking a ban over.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
Concerning the discussion of Martin vs. D&D, it is either the case that Martin has penned an absolutely brilliant new novel that the hack showrunners should have waited for before diving into new material, or Martin is struggling for a way to do justice to the end of his own series.

He's now given legions of new fans ample time to level at him harsh criticisms of the meandering nature of his last two books, so if The Winds of Winter doesn't have some epic shit happen, we are in for a rough watch.
 
J

Jigorath

Banned
Why would D&D keep Stannis alive? The fuck would they do with him at this point? Selyse and Shireen are dead, Mel has abandoned him, his army is wiped out, his plotline is basically done.
 
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