He's not dead in the books. Cat and Ned were POV characters who died, though. What does this have to do with subverting fantasy tropes?
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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He's not dead in the books. Cat and Ned were POV characters who died, though. What does this have to do with subverting fantasy tropes?
Well, Selmy probably will die in the books, Ned only PoV one book but indeed, I missed Cat. And just saying A Song of Ice and Fire isn't really subverting when it comes to deaths. It did so in the first book with Ned, but after, the PoV Stark kids, Dany, and Tyrion seem really safe.
Get killed by Ramsey.
ASoIaF subverts a lot of fantasy tropes so I don't think it'll have a typical good vs. evil battle to end it. That's all I was saying. And that even if something seems obvious now (Jon.and Dany win) doesn't mean it will happen.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
She did become a better fighter but I think the whole point of her story was her finding her own place. The whole if she's not Arya Stark then she is no-one was a bit heavy handed and obviously drawn out but now she knows who she is and she's going back home stronger than when she left it. Much like Sansa becoming stronger through her journey and Jon through his.
Arya's just seemed a lot more laborious because she had to travel to a different continent for hers.
Septa Mordane disagrees.
It certainly makes more sense in
The Winds preview chapter because she's close with the troop outside of the context of the play.
MagicWithEarvin
Member
I've never been more excited for an episode on television.
Yup. In the book both are killed and the last is taken prisoner. But in the show one is killed on the field and then one is choked to death by Jaime.
Shows just how poor judgment Catelyn and Robb had as well. Why would the North help the Starks anymore when the show makes it clear they only care about themselves first.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
Honestly I'm not expecting much out of this episode...I don't know why, the hype just isn't there.
I'm excited because I've ignored the ridiculous BASTARDBOWL!!! hype nonsense, and focussed on the fact that it's directed by Miguel Sapochnik. Not only was Hardhome a great depiction of outright terrifying slaughter, but there were distinct story threads running through it, and he never lost sight of the characters themselves amidst the action.
It'll be quite the spectacle at the very least but I'm expecting great things on a dramatic level too.
Moff
Member
hardhome was great because of the nights king
bastardbowl will just be a battle, it might be well shot and edited and all but I have probably just seen enough of those to be excited anymore. unlike hardhome it will probably be super predictable and that's what kills any hype for me
bastardbowl will just be a battle, it might be well shot and edited and all but I have probably just seen enough of those to be excited anymore. unlike hardhome it will probably be super predictable and that's what kills any hype for me
Turns out he had a third son.
Not really. He was during the time with Theon but the 20 good men, his victory over Stannis and then knifing Roose with no repercussions, he has become the undefeatable Joffrey type character. I liked the character but I pretty much hope he is killed off tomorrow and never mentioned again.
Joffrey made sense in that he was just a child who was force fed all this shit by Cersei and petulant and it was always someone else who did it for him. Ramsay becomes a supervillain who can pretty much do anything he wants.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
I think it's because my disdain for the television for the show in general. Last episode where they destroyed Jamie's character for good, killed off the Blackfish unceremoniously, brought back the hound for whatever reason, and just made Arya''s arc seem rather pointless...I just don't know.
How did they destroy Jaime's character? In fact it is his character in the books who is awful. The only reason he leaves Cersei is because Tyrion says she was fucking around. And what does he do, does he talk to Cersei about this or address the situation at all, no he just wallows in "Lancel, Kettleblack and Moonboy" for chapter after chapter.
How would you characterise Jaime?
John Dunbar
correct about everything
i hope y'all are ready for ramsay's redemption arc in season 7.
wesleyshark
Banned
Agreed. Night's King isn't a three dimensional villain yet. He's still some freak of magic beyond the wall- voiceless and unknowable- which can be horrifying in its own way, true, but he and his zombies are still only an immediate threat to a small few.
Ramsay is just a lot of fun as a villain. I've enjoyed his character, despite how awful and violent he is. The actor has been nailing it every episode. He's sure to be killed tomorrow, and I'll definitely miss his presence.
Is Ramsay three dimensional? Seems pretty one more me.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
only grey characters in game of thrones.
Eh, there's more to it than that IIRC. Doesn't Jaime witness Cersei burning the Hand's tower with wildfire? That, and surrounding herself with sycophants, drinking lots of wine and becoming generally unhinged.
She knew the waif would close the door because the Faceless men don't want to draw any unnecessary attention. They're perfect assassins.
/s
Jaime in the books was terrible? Ramsay in the show is a great character?
Jaime had a litany of reasons for his break from Cersei beyond Tyrion's parting words. It was built up over a long time. And Ramsay in the show is god damn terrible, barely even two dimensional. Every scene he's had for a long time now is the same = he's a psychopath, and he's terrible. At least in the books he was far creepier and more revolting because you typically only heard about him through third parties and in hushed tones, letting you use your imagination.
Jaime had a litany of reasons for his break from Cersei beyond Tyrion's parting words. It was built up over a long time. And Ramsay in the show is god damn terrible, barely even two dimensional. Every scene he's had for a long time now is the same = he's a psychopath, and he's terrible. At least in the books he was far creepier and more revolting because you typically only heard about him through third parties and in hushed tones, letting you use your imagination.
I just looked up the bit where Cersei burns the tower of the hand. He does think Cersei is losing it but he is also feeling self pity and wondering why Cersei isn't screwing him. He only sees her flaws only because he feels betrayed by her.
Yes there are reasons for Jaime to break from Cersei. We see in her POV what a terrible, stupid, vain and ignorant person she is. But she was (presumably) all those things before. She breaks it off with him, not talking to him after he fucked her over Joffrey's corpse. She rejects him. His POVs are all about him pouting over being rejected and hers are (eventually) about what a fool she was to send him away.
In Jaime's only Dance chapter he is pining for her as well. He breaks down not going to Cersei's aid into two parts, 1. she was fucking around 2. he lost his hand.
Two very good Preston Jacobs videos this week. I only started watching him recently after hearing about him for a long time. I should have been watching. He's good. This is about as close as we have to a Red Letter Media recap of the show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N76HMUwvFU8#t=83s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJK8UNlt_u8
Particularly very interesting about 10 minutes in on the second video where he talks about what GRRM must feel about the show. He said even if it was good, GRRM probably wouldn't like it because it's someone else messing with his characters and world. He has no children, this show with it's poor writing will be the rest of his life and his legacy. It's almost impossible that he likes that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N76HMUwvFU8#t=83s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJK8UNlt_u8
Particularly very interesting about 10 minutes in on the second video where he talks about what GRRM must feel about the show. He said even if it was good, GRRM probably wouldn't like it because it's someone else messing with his characters and world. He has no children, this show with it's poor writing will be the rest of his life and his legacy. It's almost impossible that he likes that.
I love Preston Jabobs. One of only two people I support on Patreon. Alt Shift X is also excellent this week.
https://youtu.be/LJrQmGf0Y5A
https://youtu.be/LJrQmGf0Y5A
wesleyshark
Banned
FTFY
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
As people have said...Jamie had actual characterization in the book or at least better characterization. Also Ramsay has developed some as a character. He was a psycho who laughed when torturing Theon in Season 3 where in Season 6 he didn't even like looking when the dogs destroyed Walda. He's more serious now, than he was before. It's not great characterization, but it's there.
Hindenblewp
Banned
Are you telling me the pink letter was a shoot?
Not really, I'm more interested in seeing his story, there's a lot we don't know about him yet. Him being a human before is pretty interesting.
Alt shift x sounds angrier and angrier with each episode lol he was one of the few book readers who supported the show.
What? Book Jaime absolutely takes a dump on show Jaime. Book Jaime the only thing keeping him going is that he wants to get back to Cersei who he feels needs her. And instead she gets disgusted at the loss of his hand. He doesn't reach in time to save Joffrey he arrives just after he is dead. And they have sex in a moment of passion near his body. Show Jaime straight up rapes a grieving Cersei against her consent.
In the book, Jaime is coming to terms with everything he believed and did. He doesn't want Ned's Ice broken down into a new sword for him, he wants to rebuild the Kingsguard and make it what it was. He wants to spend time with Myrcella and Tommen, he feels regret at not helping Catelyn find Arya or Sansa, and goes so far as to write in the white book that his best deed was being defeated by the young wolf so people wouldn't forget Robb who was a good man. He starts seeing Cersei for who she has always been. Once he finds out that while he was only with Cersei, she has been with Lancel, Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all he knows. That she is crazy enough to use wildfire that could have hurt innocents, the very thing he slayed the Mad King for.
In the show, Jaime has a few moments of sincerity like when Joffrey is insulting him about being mid thirties and no hand and won't have the same accolades like his heroes Ser Barristan or Ser Arthur Dayne did. Or his reunion with Myrcella. I also blame the showrunners and writers for this. Cersei is far too sympathetic on the show. They want to utilize Lena Headey so much she has become a victim and people feel for her as opposed to the books which make it clear she is just as power hungry, crazy and has no clue etc. Olenna pretty much says what we should all think about Cersei but I still pity her. Especially the way they framed Tommen betraying her over the trial by combat.
It was a worked shoot, brother!
Purple Cheeto
Member
Ramsay is the personification of GURM's fetishes.
His criticisms of The Hound's scenes were so pedantic and trivial. That character was never meant to be a hero, and we're not meant to know specifically who those people were that he killed. I can't believe I'm defending the show, but it doesn't have to spell everything out for the viewer like this guy seems to want.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
No one can defend that Arya Bravos resolution.
The Hound's scene argue the inevitability of violence. That's a pretty horrible statement and way different from the source material.
Napalm_Frank
Member
I miss Joffrey so much ;-;.
I don't hate Ramsay like many do, I quite enjoy his over the top evil in a way and think the actor is fun to watch but it doesn't quite make him feel like a fully realized character.
It's a shame too. I think he had potential. I legit thought when Sansa was going to be married to him that he would treat her overly kindly at least for the moment (the same way he addressed Fat Walda) and had his darker side more to himself and the people who knew him. Instead he immediately goes full on Joker without any provocation. I think it would have been much more interesting to build some tension with Sansa thinking Ramsay was an ok guy. Maybe ending with her rescuing Theon after learning that he didn't hurt her brothers and Ramsay going nuts over that.
I don't hate Ramsay like many do, I quite enjoy his over the top evil in a way and think the actor is fun to watch but it doesn't quite make him feel like a fully realized character.
It's a shame too. I think he had potential. I legit thought when Sansa was going to be married to him that he would treat her overly kindly at least for the moment (the same way he addressed Fat Walda) and had his darker side more to himself and the people who knew him. Instead he immediately goes full on Joker without any provocation. I think it would have been much more interesting to build some tension with Sansa thinking Ramsay was an ok guy. Maybe ending with her rescuing Theon after learning that he didn't hurt her brothers and Ramsay going nuts over that.
bitbydeath
Member
D&D don't do character growth.
It's exactly where the books and Sandor is headed. The colossal warrior named the protector of man who spent the whole series protecting someone isn't about to sit around the rest of the series when the dragons choke his river with corpses and the Others come.
The concept of a knight isn't a bad thing, righteous violence, and GRRM has pushed that outside of the main series so its not like he's dedicated to a pacifist angle or solely showing knights as a bad thing as a history lesson for readers. He's grounded the concept, showed its flaws and evils, and primarily used Sandor to do it. Now its time to show the other side and bring out his true knights.
So never.
Night King is better just because he hasn't been run into the ground yet.
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