I think it's pretty close. I've found over the years, that as the show deviates more from the books, a lot of book readers' ability to put two and two together simply flies out the window. For example, in this episode it's pretty clear why Sansa doesn't tell Jon about the Vale. Her dialogue explains it, and his actions justify it. But book readers act clueless, saying they can't understand her motivations and chalk it up to poor writing, when it's really just brain dead viewing that seems to be the problem.
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6
- Thread starter Steelyuhas
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Admiral Woofington
Member
In theory yes, but he only really controls the dumb kid and i still believe that within his manipulation a part of him still wants to fuck Sansa, so I wouldn't be surprised he wants to marry her or something
The Vale is there for her. She could just give them the order to kill LF if she wanted. And that could be what happens!
Because he himself wishes he hadn't been resurrected? That's been his whole thing since coming back. He doesn't have any reason to think it would work, or that Mel would be willing to try it, either.
Unless she figures she can outmaneuver Littlefinger. A ton of Northern houses didn't participate in the battle. If she can shame-consolidate Manderly and all the other Lords would didn't answer the call from Bolton or from her, she's got a base waiting to happen. Plus she knows Littlefinger isn't going to overthrow her claim on Winterfell; the presence of his Knights doesn't really threaten her since she knows Littlefinger wants her affection, not Winterfell.
You serious? It was telegraphed pretty hard. In fact, my dad is a pretty casual fan and he predicted this.
MisterR
Member
You seem to hate the books and deeply love the show. Why do you hang out in the book reader thread all the time?
That was really fucking awesome even if some of the tactics didn't make sense. If Sansa would have just told Jon the Vale would be arriving in a day, he could have organized around that and probably saved their walking siege tank known as Wun Wun, not to mention who knows how many other lives.
Very satisfied with the episode, though. Ramsay getting eaten by his own dogs is pretty much the most satisfying way for him to die. I agree with the AVClub's B grade though - very impressive from a craft and spectacle point of view, but very simplistic and dumb at heart. However this all plays out in the books is bound to be dramatically different.
Very satisfied with the episode, though. Ramsay getting eaten by his own dogs is pretty much the most satisfying way for him to die. I agree with the AVClub's B grade though - very impressive from a craft and spectacle point of view, but very simplistic and dumb at heart. However this all plays out in the books is bound to be dramatically different.
AlphaDragoon
Member
Honestly, the whole thing is starting to irritate me. I get this sneaking suspicion that D&D think they're writing their next "great twist" and are actually going to try and turn Sansa against Jon, which would be untold levels of bullshit.
There's a big difference between wanting yourself to stay dead and a family member to stay dead. That's not a satisfying answer at all. If resurrection was real, any family member would at least try.
Unless there was proof that he was in heaven. But it sounds like Jon has proof of the opposite.
I like the show, and think the books are okay, but highly flawed. Why wouldn't I post here?
Admiral Woofington
Member
Well that doesn't work out if you personally have experienced the resurrection and can say without a doubt that it isn't worth it.
It's like if you immortal and knew it's a curse, and someone comes and asks you how to do it. You'd willingly try to keep from doing the same.
SodiumBenzoate
Member
Because all you seem to do is shit on people who criticize the show via book comparisons, no matter how thought out or reasoned the criticisms are.
MisterR
Member
I don't know. Seems kind of counter productive to spend all your time bitching about book readers and your personal opinions about their motivations for show complaints.
I am so relieved that Davos
is telling Jon about what Mel did instead of just murdering her like I was afraid he would
But it would kind of suck if Mel died. Maybe there's another way?
Because you're kinda just trying to troll at this point.
You're not making any actual arguments as to why the show is so good or what is so flawed about the books.
You're seemingly making wide-sweeping statements to provoke some people.
Admiral Woofington
Member
The thread at the end of the day is meant for people who have read the books and don't mind discussion around book spoilers and differences. It's not meant as a thread for book readers to hate the show lol. I still dislike the two latest seasons as a whole but I'm not going to complain when people say we're being negative.
Well that's obviously because they're not that well thought out or reasoned. Still not understanding why I wouldn't post here though, unless you think the only posts of value make snide references to "20 good men" or "bad pussy".
I feel like over the years I've been pretty clear about where I think the books fall short (hell if you comb this thread you'll likely find my most recent blurb about it). As for why I think the show is good, I think it is a fun story that is well realized with competent directors, fine actors, decent writing and overall production. I think the show has done an excellent job of cutting down on Martin's excess, and where the show has fallen short, I honestly attribute it to trying to adapt garbage that shouldn't have been in the story to begin with (Dorne, Dorne, Dorne).
I'm hardly a troll. I only post in here at most once a week after an episode has aired and then leave everyone to their hate-in.
Proclaiming yourself the arbiter of what does and does not qualify for good arguments as a justification for trolling is a pretty bad look. Good conversation happens here, and I'm pretty sure we're allowed to make jokes about the show's dialogue. People have disagreements all the time here and articulate it respectfully, like for example how I said I think Arya/Dany's plots in the last two books were filler, and someone else (can't remember their name) had a very smart reply that made me re-examine my point.
You should probably just stick to the TV only thread if your only interest here is to annoy people, or if you think literally everything in the books is terrible and everything in the show is an improvement.
Byakuya769
Member
Episode was garbage. I wrote this episode at the beginning of the season. Predictable, low brow trash.
If you watched this instead of the NBA finals, hold that L for all of eternity.
If you watched this instead of the NBA finals, hold that L for all of eternity.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I have a feeling when Dany arrives to Westeros, Tyrion/Theon will convince her to ally with Jon Snow/the North.
I don't see how he can he say without a doubt it isn't worth it. Will he commit suicide now? Will he always be miserable and never be happy again even if they beat the White Walkers? I doubt that.
biosnake20
Member
The Battle of Fire special effects were really well done. Just going from the dragon stuff from last season to now was a huge improvement.
Loved the episode except for Sansa not giving Jon any sort of heads-up that the Vale was inbound.
Hmm, never thought about it this way. BUT, even assuming she thought this, it is VERY fucked up for her to allow her brother, all of these loyal men, and the last of the giants to walk into a potential trap from Ramsey without letting them know about a few thousand more men she had ontw.
Hmm, never thought about it this way. BUT, even assuming she thought this, it is VERY fucked up for her to allow her brother, all of these loyal men, and the last of the giants to walk into a potential trap from Ramsey without letting them know about a few thousand more men she had ontw.
Admiral Woofington
Member
My Dani and Jon ship will sail dammit
Not to mention the whole theory based around them being the Ice and Fire.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Yeah but what if in a twist
Jon is the fire(Lord of Light)
And Dany is the ice(Give no quarter, Mean Queen)
reelbigtink
Member
While I loved mostly loved this episode and had a great time with it I'll agree and say I enjoyed the finals a lot more. LeBron's tears of joy could've brought Rickon back dammit!
MagicWithEarvin
Member
Wait, why was Davos so upset? I didn't get that part.
Keep that proud Targaryen tradition alive.
He basically found proof that Shireen was burned on a pyre by Melly. Something he most likely suspected, but didn't voice because they were all a bit busy.
Admiral Woofington
Member
You know, I actually see this point. Jon completely fucked up and played right into Ramsay's hands, and he could have easily pulled the Vale into the mix with that big melee in the center, thus losing the entire battle. Sansa might have been right even without knowing anything about tactics.
If Jon just wouldn't have broken off and forced Tormund to charge, it would have gone far better for them even without the Vale. He should be kicking himself for losing Wun Wun.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
He found Shireens wooden elk he made for her half burnt in the snow. He put 2 and 2 together in that she was sacrificed from the burnt wood around there, and well....he loved Shireen like a daughter.
He'll be fucking pissed.
He found out that Shereen was burned.
AlphaDragoon
Member
He found out that Mel and the douche brigade burned Shireen through finding the toy he gave her being charred at the pyre. He was basically calling Mel out in front of Jon so that he would see that she was a POS.
I don't think I ever said everything in the books is terrible, just that they're heavily flawed. But the idea that you would tell me it's best not to post in this thread if I did feel that way is pretty telling about the tenor of discussion in here.
It would be better if Jon said something along the lines of not having choice except to spring the trap. The battle was a bit obviously structured for the episode, not quite up to the level of something like Kingdom of Heaven (DC). In some ways I enjoyed the battles in BBC's The Last Kingdom a bit more. They don't look as good or are as huge, but tactically they made more sense.
Squid_Vicious
Member
We are so incredibly lucky to live in a time when we can see something like that on television.
I was blown away.
I was blown away.
reelbigtink
Member
I think there are lots of people here who prefer what the show is doing in comparison to the books. That's fine. But in my opinion the lowest of lows on the show is, like, F- tier garbage compared to the lowest of lows from the books. At the books' worst they're just "boring". The show can get downright embarrassing at times.
He specifically mentioned the need for allies in Westeros. I think it's this. They've probably set up Qyburn's use of the children to set up a him carrying out the assassination for Cersei.
Also, to people complaining that this episode was predictable, I had the episode spoiled pretty much beat by beat for me. It did not stop that from being an insanely well done episode.
Also, a little touch I really liked: Dany not being quite sure what to do when Yara offers her hand. She's never had to meet anyone as an equal before, so hand shaking is completely foreign to her.
It's basically the same as in the books where they are freed, but just take up roost in the city, right?
Echo Chamber! ...Chamber...chamber...chamber...chamber...
Totally. If our conclusion of Sansa's play is "yo what a ice-cold bitch", I can stand by that. I don't think I can stand by a conclusion of "Sansa was dumb". She recognized Jon's weakness and Ramsay's weakness, and effectively executed a plan that ended up with Ramsay dead and Winterfell in her hands.
Yeah. KoH DC had some really awesome battles. The structure of this left a lot to be desired but the actual production values and cinematography of it was very very close to KoH or Braveheart. HBO put the money where it counts, though some of the CGI in the unbroken shot of Jon killing people was kind of obvious.
The number of Vale horsemen actually didn't seem THAT high. It could have been a way closer battle if they didn't have the element of surprise.
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