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[Jayof9s]

The wolf head Umber threw was Ghost's. They dipped it in tar first just to fuck with Jon.

Nah, they just ran out of budget. Next week it will all be cleared up though.

Random soldier: Sir, we found Ghost.

Jon Snow: Good, bring him to me.

Random soldier: He died fighting.

Jon Snow: Oh.

-Cut to Dorne-

I get that Jon would have fucked over their plan to rescue his brother no matter what, but the pile of corpses stacking that perfectly and Wun Wun being able to break through a door but not a phallanx just felt ridiculous to me. Enormous tactical failures on everyones part.

Like Wun Wun could have started throwing corpses at the phallanx with the kind of force they'd never be able to withstain. Just a tough pill to swallow I guess.

Yeah, I felt like everything was wonderfully shot and it was an epic battle but... really stupid too. The corpse wall was silly and the fact that the heavy armored/shielded guys were able to just run out and encircle around Jon's army while they just stood there was even more ridiculous. Like, you all couldn't see those guys slowly running across a massive field and then start encircling you? Nope. No way they could have possibly reacted sooner or even just shifted their lines a bit. And then Wun Wun was crazy ineffective until plot called for it was just as bad. As you said, he could have just started throwing corpses at the wall and taken down shield-holders left and right.

And considering Ramsay had significantly more cavalry it didn't make sense to murder his own just to build a wall of corpses to begin with. He could have just sat back and let his superior numbers whittle Jon's cavalry down. Formed a line against the cavalry with his shield/spearmen if Jon's cavalry somehow pulled off a 2:1 victory and still held the day.

It takes a lot for me to drop immersion and I'm willing to suspend disbelief pretty far but almost every part of that battle had me cringing at how contrived it was.

 

[Aiii]

Night's King ain't no villain, he's the hero that Westeros deserve.

He eats babies.

 

[WrenchNinja]

I think it delineates the differences between them nicely. Jon's not cut out to be a politician, as they've shown time and time again. He's not much for foresight. Sansa is, even if you feel like her empowerment has been abrupt, they've been building that road from season one. Why else put her beside Joffrey, Tyrion, Littlefinger, and Ramsay?

Sansa the politician who couldnt manage to a secure a single northern house despite making a big deal about the Stark name and then complaining about Davos a few episodes ago. Such foresight.

 

[Pyramid head]

The Whitewalkers

Bummed about Ramsay's death. From the latest chapter of the upcoming book sounds like George wants to make Euron the next Ramsay, but show Euron has ruined him for me. Really lame.

Book Euron is nightmarish. After seeing show Euron lisp and waddle his way through the Kingsmoot my expectation are at rock bottom.

 

[Sheroking]

But she's absolutely a villain.

What's funny is, when the show absolutely does not characterize her this way, I expect people who think like you will criticize them for not going through with it.

And then be deadly silent as George absolutely never characterizes her this way, either. Because it's pretty obvious in both mediums where they're going with her, and it's not pitting her against other protagonists or driving her insane.

 

[Lothar]

It is also pretty clear that she can't ressurect Rickon... she even says 'I don't have any Powers, just the one he gives me'.

That line doesn't make it clear at all. Jon should tell her to get the LoL to bring his whole army back.

I hate that D&D actually got people to believe this. The problem with it is that it isn't consistent with Jon's maturing and resurrection. D&D clearly watered down Jon's character this season in order to prop up Sansa, because they know they fucked her story up last season. So this season they overcompensated by making Jon, one of the story's primary "heroes" look weak in every way they could. So they could contrast him with a new and improved Sansa. It's forced, bad writing.

I absolutely concur that Sansa needed to progress. It should have begun last season. But I don't like the way the writers have turned Sansa into a flawless badass in a single stroke and made Jon wishy-washy and seemingly unwise in the process. it's as if he learned nothing over the course of his journey from bastard to squire to Lord Commander, fighting the White Walker's, allying with the Wildlings and being resurrected.

I don't think Jon can be blamed for running towards his brother. It's Sansa that seems weird and cold for already considering Rickon dead, even though it was true.

 

[danm999]

Well we don't know the fallout in the books because we haven't seen it yet. But in the show it was a lot of inaction because Alliser Thorne just kind of commits a coup, and plays into a lot of the Brother's fears about the Wildlings--despite some of them having seen the White Walkers and how big of a threat they were. A lot of what is left at the wall are cowards and the injured. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly it was mostly those that were Rangers that betrayed Jon--as in the best fighters who had lost friends to wildlings despite the fact that Jon had as well--so I imagine a lot of the Builders and Stewards wouldn't be itching to take on the brothers who are chosen for their fighting prowess.

In the show it appears to be mostly Rangers who take down Jon, yes.

In the books it's only Bowen Marsh and some of his stewards, and they nearly fuck it up. And the fact that Stewards are the ones wielding the knife sort of implies the plot's got weak support if non-fighters are the ones holding the knives.

 

[Euron]

Book Euron is nightmarish. After seeing show Euron lisp and waddle his way through the Kingsmoot my expectation are at rock bottom.

I mean let's just compare:

Book Euron (TWOW)

Spoiler

Kidnaps priests of all religions to use as sacrifices, tortures people with magic, ties his brother to the front of his ship Fury Road style, and has a suit of Valyrian Armor

Show Euron

I killed my brother and have a big cock I gun fuk KellyC

 

[wesleyshark]

What's funny is, when the show absolutely does not characterize her this way, I expect people who think like you will criticize them for not doing it.

And then be deadly silent as George absolutely never characterizes her this way, either. Because it's pretty obvious in both mediums where they're going with her, and it's not pitting her against other protagonists or driving her insane.

Eh I won't criticize the show or books for it either way lol. I'm just enjoying the journey. As it stands, she's more villain than hero. Obviously that could change when she hits Westeros, but that will all depend on who stands with her and who stands against her, and which POV you most take to.

 

[Henkka]

Her acting is fine. I like her character (save for how much time she spends doing nothing in Mereen in both the show and in the books).

But she's absolutely a villain.

Yeah I really liked the scene where Tyrion reminded her that burning down cities is actually a really fucked up thing to do.

"Taking what is hers" sounds cool, but actually involves the deaths of thousands of innocents who happen to be on the wrong side. Not to mention all the all the rape as a Dothraki horde sacks towns and villages. Unless she finds a non-violent way to take Westeros, I'd say she counts as a villain

 

[Crisco]

I wonder if Littlefinger got convinced of the Night's King existence somehow. He's a self serving shit, but he's also not an idiot, and would recognize the need to stop a giant horde of undead from sweeping Westeros. Probably not though, or he'd already be on his way to Dany.

Yeah I really liked the scene where Tyrion reminded her that burning down cities is actually a really fucked up thing to do.

"Taking what is hers" sounds cool, but actually involves the deaths of thousands of innocents who happen to be on the wrong side. Not to mention all the all the rape as a Dothraki horde sacks towns and villages. Unless she finds a non-violent way to take Westeros, I'd say she counts as a villain

lol what? She's freed thousands of slaves, ended the raping/sacking ways of her Dothraki horde, and is trying to do the same with the Greyjoys. Crucifying a bunch of slave owners and burning her enemy's army to death doesn't make her evil, it makes her a conqueror.

 

[danm999]

I think the books absolutely play up the emancipation of Slaver's Bay as a doomed enterprise and quite a few people point this out to Daenerys, her response usually being violence, ambivalence or withdrawal.

Her foils in the books like the Green Grace or Xaro Xhoan Daxos in ADWD are also more subtle and persuasive than the random assortment of "masters" in the show who basically have no response to anything but cartoonish villainy.

 

[Diprosalic]

so, which certified villains are left in the show? The masters are dead, Ramsay is dead, which leaves - Cersei, the Freys and arguably Carcetti?
oh, right, Euron too I guess

Littlefinger

 

[John Dunbar]

Yeah I really liked the scene where Tyrion reminded her that burning down cities is actually a really fucked up thing to do.

"Taking what is hers" sounds cool, but actually involves the deaths of thousands of innocents who happen to be on the wrong side. Not to mention all the all the rape as a Dothraki horde sacks towns and villages. Unless she finds a non-violent way to take Westeros, I'd say she counts as a villain

that reminds me of the bit about dany telling yara to stop all the raping ("but that is our way of life!"). i bet she somehow convinces majority of the dothraki to be totally cool with locals from now on and it's going to be terrible.

 

[Sheroking]

Maybe we should clarify what you mean by villain. What she isn't and will never be is an antagonist.

She's morally grey and has suggested and/or committed acts of violence and brutality that can't exactly be considered righteous. That being said, how many "heroes" are there? Jon and Brienne are arguably the only characters in the entire show without moral baggage.

 

[fanboi]

Yeah I really liked the scene where Tyrion reminded her that burning down cities is actually a really fucked up thing to do.

"Taking what is hers" sounds cool, but actually involves the deaths of thousands of innocents who happen to be on the wrong side. Not to mention all the all the rape as a Dothraki horde sacks towns and villages. Unless she finds a non-violent way to take Westeros, I'd say she counts as a villain

Everyone is a villan. Just not from their PoV.

 

[Enosh]

Her acting is fine. I like her character (save for how much time she spends doing nothing in Mereen in both the show and in the books).

But she's absolutely a villain.

she isn't portrayed as one and no one except for some people who read the books thinks of her as a villain

she's the main hero of the whole story in most peoples eyes

 

[Aiii]

Everyone is a villan. Just not from their PoV.

In the books? Definitely.

In the show? Mweh.

 

[danm999]

Everyone is a villan. Just not from their PoV.

Yeah, and Dany receives very little (if any, though I can't recall precisely) scrutiny from other POVs for a major character. I think Tyrion sees her or something and that's it.

Like, if anybody had been in the room with her when she lost her cool and ordered the wineseller's daughter tortured for information in ADWD and had a POV I'm not sure anybody could think anything but Mad King 2.0.

 

[wesleyshark]

Jack Bender, director, from the BTS for episode 6:

"She was amazing. At the end of the scene, you should be somewhat roused by her, and a little horrified. She's not Hitler at Nuremberg, but she's got the power."

 

[hipsterpants]

If Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne than I could see that pushing her over the edge.

 

[Crisco]

Dany isn't horrifying, that giant flying fire breathing monster she rides around on is though. Honestly I thought that was the best part of the episode, they were clearly drawing from the book's descriptions of Balerion the Dread with Drogo's look.

 

[Drazgul]

If King's Landing burns now, it will create huge chaos and upset the power balance completely. The first to hear about these events will be those already in Westeros - Dorne, Winterfell, Riverrun, the Vale, the Iron Islands. This means they will react first. No one gives a shit who the "heir" is. History has shown that in upheavals, those with power claim the throne by force, not by right.

All hail His Grace, Walder of House Frey, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm.

 

[wesleyshark]

Dany isn't horrifying, that giant flying fire breathing monster she ride around on is though. Honestly I thought that was the best part of the episode, they were clearly drawing from the book's descriptions of Balerion the Dread with Drogo's look.

The dragons looks fantastic. Terrifying and majestic all at once.

 

[Ghost23]

Great, enjoyable episode, but man it's annoying how they have made Jon an idiot so they could redeem Sansa from last season. Also, Dany's try hard "badass" acting makes me roll my eyes every time.

 

[Moff]

In the books? Definitely.

In the show? Mweh.

are you saying book joffrey and ramsay are grey characters?

 

[wesleyshark]

Great, enjoyable episode, but man it's annoying how they have made Jon an idiot so they could redeem Sansa from last season. Also, Dany's try hard "badass" acting is eye-rolling.

Jon is an idiot in the books also.

 

[Lothar]

Great, enjoyable episode, but man it's annoying how they have made Jon an idiot so they could redeem Sansa from last season. Also, Dany's try hard "badass" acting makes me roll my eyes every time.

Jon's character has always been someone that knows nothing.

 

[Aiii]

are you saying book joffrey and ramsay are grey characters?

Both aren't POV characters.

I'm sure you thought Jaime pure evil before he became a POV character. Cersei too. Were you a fan of Theon, perhaps?

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

I don't even watch the show anymore and I felt satisfaction upon hearing that Ramsay was killed.

 

[Moff]

Both aren't POV characters.

I'm sure you thought Jaime pure evil before he became a POV character. Cersei too. Were you a fan of Theon, perhaps?

I dont think the poster you quoted meant that PoV

 

[Henkka]

lol what? She's freed thousands of slaves, ended the raping/sacking ways of her Dothraki horde, and is trying to do the same with the Greyjoys. Crucifying a bunch of slave owners and burning her enemy's army to death doesn't make her evil, it makes her a conqueror.

Slavery will probably return to Meereen as soon as she leaves.

"Her enemy's army" consists of thousands of men who probably just want to go back to their families, and really have no stakes in the power struggles fought by royalty. All those people will have to die so she can sit in a chair. Not to mention, she's (currently) barren and can't have heirs. So once she dies, it will probably create a power vacuum and another civil war.

 

[Ghost23]

Jon is an idiot in the books also.

I guess we'll see how he handles the situation in TWOW

Spoiler

in 2020

I think it will be more believable in the books because Sansa is progressing more slowly to become more like Littlefinger, but in the show there really isn't much progression- it just kinda happened.

 

[Crisco]

Slavery will probably return to Meereen as soon as she leaves.

"Her enemy's army" consists of thousands of men who probably just want to go back to their families, and really have no stakes in the power struggles fought by royalty. All those people will have to die so she can sit in a chair. Not to mention, she's (currently) barren and can't have heirs. So once she dies, it will probably create a power vacuum and another civil war.

Eh, dragons can recross an ocean pretty easily. That's a pretty effective deterrent for whomever she leaves in charge.

 

[Aiii]

I dont think the poster you quoted meant that PoV

The person I quoted meant that everyone appears a villain until you look at it from their POV.

Which is exactly what happens in the book when you get someone you thought of as a villain through the biased look of others as a new POV. Because they're not actually villains, they're grey characters with motivations and experiences you don't even realise.

So yes, it boils down to the same thing. Cersei might appear a villain to everyone else, but even Arya realises that Cersei acts out of love for her children.

 

[Crisco]

Meli should have given birth to one of her shadow babies to kill Ramsay. Would have saved lives.

We can't call people without wings angels so we call them friends

 

[metalslimer]

As much as I hate Dany's character, I have to admit that finally seeing her battle with the dragons with decent CG is something I've been waiting for a long time.

 

[John Dunbar]

The person I quoted meant that everyone appears a villain until you look at it from their POV.

Which is exactly what happens in the book when you get someone you thought of as a villain through the biased look of others as a new POV. Because they're not actually villains, they're grey characters with motivations and experiences you don't even realise.

So yes, it boils down to the same thing. Cersei might appear a villain to everyone else, but even Arya realises that Cersei acts out of love for her children.

you don't think cersei counts as "evil" and "villain" even from her own POV? she might not think that herself, but she is completely mad. much like dany.

 

[Moff]

The person I quoted meant that everyone appears a villain until you look at it from their POV.

Which is exactly what happens in the book when you get someone you thought of as a villain through the biased look of others as a new POV. Because they're not actually villains, they're grey characters with motivations and experiences you don't even realise.

So yes, it boils down to the same thing. Cersei might appear a villain to everyone else, but even Arya realises that Cersei acts out of love for her children.

I can totally do that with non-POV characters, too, tywin for instance.

but since you thought he only meant POV characters what I meant to say doesn't really matter anymore. the book is full of black and white characters. some of te POVs too. there isn't much grey about jon for instance. and I honestly don't see how a POV could point joffrey or ramsey in a better light, but I guess we'll never know.

 

[CoolOff]

Lol I crack up everytime at "KellyC".

 

[Morts]

Such a tense episode, though I'm not looking forward to Sansa probably not killing Littlefinger next week.

Also I'm not sure why dragons #2 and #3 waited so long to bust out of the side of that pyramid after being unchained at the beginning of the season.

 

[Moff]

Such a tense episode, though I'm not looking forward to Sansa probably not killing Littlefinger next week.

Also I'm not sure why dragons #2 and #3 waited so long to bust out of the side of that pyramid after being unchained at the beginning of the season.

they waited until their mama needed them

 

[Violater]

Her acting is fine. I like her character (save for how much time she spends doing nothing in Mereen in both the show and in the books).

But she's absolutely a villain.

Well I can't argue with that, you basically said nothing.

Dany: Threatened to crucify people, incinerated others alive
Sansa: Fed a man to dogs
Jon: BFFs with woman who burns children

Dem heroes.

Dany: Did to the masters what they did to the children, did you forget that part? Killed the Kahls who were planning to enslave her.

Jon: Has no idea what Melisandre did, Davos just found out for crying out loud so you are making no sense there.

Grey Worm: Cut two defenseless men's throats.
Tyrion Killed a defenseless woman and his father.
The hound Killed the butcher's son.
Davos was midwife to Melisandre's shadow baby.
Sansa: Never had any redeeming qualities in my book.


There are no Heroes or puritans in this show, none.

 

[Calm waterfall]

QUEEN SANSA.

 

[SpaceHorror]

Enjoyed the episode last night.

I was worried the Vale saves the day thing would be hard to get behind, but it worked for me. Sansa having them come at the right moment, when Ramsay was at his most vulnerable, rather than going with the whole "arriving in the nick of time to save the day" cliche was satisfying, especially considering the ramifications. Pretty ruthless of Sansa as, even though it worked, it got a lot of men killed and could have gotten Jon killed. Not to mention she pretty much wrote off Rickon as she knew he was done for anyway.

Really hope they don't squander the potential drama her choices could inspire.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Kind of interesting how quick Jon is to bury Rickon considering that he's friends with a Necromancer.

 

[El Topo]

He eats babies.

How else is he supposed to get all the proteins and vitamins he needs?

 

[Forkball]

Jon: Has no idea what Melisandre did, Davos just found out for crying out loud so you are making no sense there.

Grey Worm: Cut two defenseless men's throats.
Tyrion Killed a defenseless woman and his father.
The hound Killed the butcher's son.
Davos was midwife to Melisandre's shadow baby.
Sansa: Never had any redeeming qualities in my book.


There are no Heroes or puritans in this show, none.

I'm just joking man. That's what I like about this series, even goody two-shoes like Jon Snow still have character flaws and are faced with morally difficult decisions. It's exciting to see how characters change over the course of the story. Did you think Sansa was going to execute a dude via dogs when she was practicing courtesies with Cersei in season one? I didn't!

I would not say Dany is a villain, but it should be interesting to see how Westeros perceives her. She's the daughter of a king nobody liked, is aligned with the Greyjoys who are known for maliciously attacking others for no real reason, aligned with Tyrion who is still presumed to have murdered Joffrey and Tywin in cold blood, has an army composed of (ex)slaves and violent raiders famous for razing and raping, three gigantic hellbeasts that breathe fire, and has doomstacked numerous cities in Essos, where she crucified the old rulers. I mean for John Q. Westerosi, she sounds pretty scary on paper.

 

[metalslimer]

Kind of interesting how quick Jon is to bury Rickon considering that he's friends with a Necromancer.

Jon wouldn't have wanted to use it on himself most likely if given the option. He wouldn't want to use it on anyone else.

 

[Bots are better than you]

Kind of interesting how quick Jon is to bury Rickon considering that he's friends with a Necromancer.

A Necromancer who was actually surprised after Jon came back to life, having no idea how that worked out. Whats more interesting to me in relation to Mel's powers is, that unlike so far, where everything she did required some sort of sacrifice, Jon came back to like at no "cost" at all.

How else is he supposed to get all the proteins and vitamins he needs?

Doesn't help him with that surely massive deficit of salt he should have.

*Ba-dum tsssss*