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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6

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dani_dc

Member
But this exactly what she said! you should probably rewatch the scene, they weren't going into the details of what he did to her and Theon because that would have been really dumb exposition, but she specifically says Ramsay plays games to make people suffer.

I feel we are going to just agree to disagree.
She should had extrapolated her experience to Rickon.

But fair enough.

Remember when this was the most amazing thing ever.

Daenerys-Targaryen.jpg

Ah memories
from two weeks ago
.
I'm kind of stunned that people are defending Sansa feeding Ramsay to dogs as somehow just or righteous. It's pure villainy. Yes, Ramsay was terrible to her, but that doesn't excuse torture or mutilation. There is nothing that justifies that kind of behavior. It's like we want our "heroes" to be entirely good so we twist events to fit into whatever narrative we constructed. But that's disingenuous. Sansa committed a war atrocity. Whether or not that informs her character going forward is anyone's guess, but for that moment, she was every bit as vile as the man she was ravaging.

No one in the seven kingdoms will care if Sansa feed him to the dogs, I don't think what she did was right, but in a fictional like this characters don't have to act right for me to enjoy their actions.
 
That would be a bit on the nose. I kinda prefer the theme of everything's fucked no matter who wins in these petty squabbles.

I don't know if that's where it's headed, but it's a situation that looks increasingly feasible with all the little changes they've made accumulating over time. The 'Queens Alliance' on Dany's side and Sansa in the North are already in place.
 

Jarmel

Banned
"Hey guys maybe we should armor our only superweapon who will be the biggest target for archers. A weapon might help him too."

"Nah, fuck it. Let him punch them to death."
 
And what's up with Valayrian steel. Is it supposed to cut through regular steel / armor or not?

edit: I can't remember if books / show are different but we've definitely seen it cut through normal swords in the show.
 
I wonder how much the female rulers angle is going to be a theme in the next season(s). We already have Dany and Yara teaming up, and Varys is presumably going to Dorne to ask Xena and her friends for help. That's three 'Queens' on her side, and Sansa ruling in the North. Then we have Margaery, who is a consort Queen but could become a ruler in her own right if Loras does die, as he is the only male heir to the Reach.

That would leave in male hands only the Vale, the Westerlands and the Riverlands, and Sansa has a legitimate claim to overlordship of the latter. I'm not sure who's the nominal leader of the Westerlands right now, but if we go by the books it's Cersei who succeeds her father. If Littlefinger does take over the Vale, and submits to (his wife?) Sansa, that would mean that every single realm in the Seven Kingdoms would be ruled by a woman.

In the books I believe there was something about a war of three Queens or some such. I see people on the internet getting butthurt about women taking over in Westeros but it's likely they will be just as bad as the men when it comes to conflict. Just look at Dany and the Bad Pussies.
 
In the books I believe there was something about a war of three Queens or some such. I see people on the internet getting butthurt about women taking over in Westeros but it's likely they will be just as bad as the men when it comes to conflict. Just look at Dany and the Bad Pussies.

You want the good Queens but you need the Bad Pussies.
 

duckroll

Member
I wonder how much the female rulers angle is going to be a theme in the next season(s). We already have Dany and Yara teaming up, and Varys is presumably going to Dorne to ask Xena and her friends for help. That's three 'Queens' on her side, and Sansa ruling in the North. Then we have Margaery, who is a consort Queen but could become a ruler in her own right if Loras does die, as he is the only male heir to the Reach.

That would leave in male hands only the Vale, the Westerlands and the Riverlands, and Sansa has a legitimate claim to overlordship of the latter. I'm not sure who's the nominal leader of the Westerlands right now, but if we go by the books it's Cersei who succeeds her father. If Littlefinger does take over the Vale, and submits to (his wife?) Sansa, that would mean that every single realm in the Seven Kingdoms would be ruled by a woman.

Sansa will rule in the Vale and Lady Morment will rule the North.
 

RedStep

Member
I'm kind of stunned that people are defending Sansa feeding Ramsay to dogs as somehow just or righteous. It's pure villainy. Yes, Ramsay was terrible to her, but that doesn't excuse torture or mutilation. There is nothing that justifies that kind of behavior. It's like we want our "heroes" to be entirely good so we twist events to fit into whatever narrative we constructed. But that's disingenuous. Sansa committed a war atrocity. Whether or not that informs her character going forward is anyone's guess, but for that moment, she was every bit as vile as the man she was ravaging.

Getting high and mighty about fictional characters is on thing, but who gets to decide what method of execution is just and which is "every bit as vile as the man she was ravaging"? Is beheading cruel or just? How about hanging? Or a firing/archery squad?

He deserved death, he got it. It certainly wasn't nice, but I don't think you can say it was equally vile (do you recall how many people he flayed/mutiliated/murdered/raped for fun?) without being seriously ignorant or ridiculously disingenuous.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
Getting high and mighty about fictional characters is on thing, but who gets to decide what method of execution is just and which is "every bit as vile as the man she was ravaging"? Is beheading cruel or just? How about hanging? Or a firing/archery squad?

He deserved death, he got it. It certainly wasn't nice, but I don't think you can say it was equally vile (do you recall how many people he flayed/mutiliated/murdered/raped for fun?) without being seriously ignorant or ridiculously disingenuous.

Do you think it's possible for a good character to go overboard in punishing an evil character?
 

Moff

Member
I wonder how much the female rulers angle is going to be a theme in the next season(s). We already have Dany and Yara teaming up, and Varys is presumably going to Dorne to ask Xena and her friends for help. That's three 'Queens' on her side, and Sansa ruling in the North. Then we have Margaery, who is a consort Queen but could become a ruler in her own right if Loras does die, as he is the only male heir to the Reach.

That would leave in male hands only the Vale, the Westerlands and the Riverlands, and Sansa has a legitimate claim to overlordship of the latter. I'm not sure who's the nominal leader of the Westerlands right now, but if we go by the books it's Cersei who succeeds her father. If Littlefinger does take over the Vale, and submits to (his wife?) Sansa, that would mean that every single realm in the Seven Kingdoms would be ruled by a woman.

hmm, I wonder if the followup to the war of the five kings could be the reign of the five queens. unlikely book material, though.
 

Dany

Banned
I loved the battle. It was so well done. Quite sure that jon should of died, like numerous times. Amazingly shot. Probably their best directed episode + cinematography
 

Iksenpets

Banned
Why did Jon not have a shield? And where was his helmet?

And he came pretty lightly armored.

Because lightly armored swordsmen look cooler on TV. They're paying a lot for Kit Harington's face, they're not going to cover it up. And fast sword fighting with both hands free is more exciting then slower block-and-parry type stuff with a shield. No one on this show ever goes into battle properly armored.
 
Because lightly armored swordsmen look cooler on TV. They're paying a lot for Kit Harington's face, they're not going to cover it up. And fast sword fighting with both hands free is more exciting then slower block-and-parry type stuff with a shield. No one on this show ever goes into battle properly armored.
If this followed regular medieval battles there'd be a lot of hitting the shield back and forth until you push or punch a guy to the floor
 

Brakke

Banned
there's already a gif for the battle's big scene so I made one for my other favourite scene, love that horse action
LNeIQQx.gif

That second horse charging in from the left had me shook. Serious impact!

Why did Jon not have a shield? And where was his helmet?

Longclaw is a bastard sword, designed to be wielded with two hands. Jon had enough chain on his off-hand glove at least to hold the blade and block incoming swings with the sword. His technique obviously worked out super well: he beat everyone who came against him. What would a shield have accomplished for him that Longclaw didn't? He went in expecting to get charged and then fight on horseback at close range.
 

Meier

Member
I mean, we saw her with Drogon under her control a few episodes ago when she gave the big speech to the Dothraki. And again she got onto the pyramid because of riding Drogon.

It made sense to me that the other two were just following their brother more than anything.
I thought this was pretty clear. Drogon probably called for them or they were able to sense him nearby. She was talking to Drogon but made no gesture at the others because it wasn't needed -- they follow the actions of their alpha male.

Just another situation where the explanation is super obvious and doesn't require spending screen time but where internet users are actively seeking things to find umbrage with.
 
Why did Jon not have a shield? And where was his helmet?

And he came pretty lightly armored.

I've never had a problem with the "no helmet" thing in film/television. Naturally a visual medium wants their star's face recognizable as much as possible. That doesn't apply to a novel. And we all know Martin is obsessed with helmets lol.
 

Elandyll

Banned
Why did Jon not have a shield? And where was his helmet?

And he came pretty lightly armored.
Tbh that's the main thing that annoyed me. They knew they'd face a large amount of archers. That and Wun Wun not using kicks to fuck the Phalanx over, instead punching lances and shields.

Just using basic wooden shields if they didn't have access to good old steel ones.
Heck, give wun wun a giant wooden shield with spikes and let him lead the charge.

If we over think too much about it though it'll be all too clear that the battle was written to be spectacular, not necessarily making the most sense.

Oops. Too late. :/
 

Enosh

Member
I wasn't clear on that, but apparently he was dismissed. But if Cersei is already Lady of the Westerlands, that would only make him her heir.
eh I guess, idk there is probably no precedence for something like that since before Barristan no one was thrown from the kingsguard, if he even was, I rewatched that scene on youtube and I still don't get it

I'd say he would take precedence over her as the male heir

stealth edit: nvm Kevan is still alive, I believe the tittle would go to him before Cersei

no he was dismissed, he is wearing lannister armor now
he was wearing Lannister armor in season 1 when fighting the Starks iirc

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/sJ40S8Jp2-Y/maxresdefault.jpg

this is him when he meets Tywin in season 1
 
Can we all take a good look at how many of the Bolton army are heavily armored? Very little... Guys that actually have the helmets, well those helmets aren't doing a very good job of stopping being kabob'd by longclaw and other swords. Not a lot of head shots happening out there.
 

mantidor

Member
Her action was villainy although, as I said, I don't know if her character will go down that route. And Ned executed a deserter by swiftly cutting off his head. There's a very big difference between that and mutilating someone. By comparison, look at how Jon handled the man who defied him (beheading) or the men who assassinated him (hanging). That's how justice is handled in Westeros.

I'm not saying they are comparable in viciousness, they are comparable in that what we deem morally wrong is not morally wrong for these characters. For our modern world all these guys and gals are pretty reprehensible, maybe only Brienne is a "good" one, maybe.

And again I don't think the point was to torture Ramsay, he would have enjoyed that, didn't he said something along the lines "I am part of you" to Sansa or something like that? the idea was that his most loyal "soldiers" would turn on him, Sansa didn't lift a finger, and I feel it fits the character.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Dam that Jon Snow has some serious plot armour now.

Ramsay's chief mistake? Trying to shoot a guy who just proved to be arrowproof. How many hundreds of arrows just didn't want to hit Jon only minutes before?

Dude should've used mistletoe.
 

Nodnol

Member
Rewatched the episode; still as enjoyable.

I said it in my initial reaction post, but I'll say it again; this is Jon's resurrection episode.

I don't get why people are being so hard on him; the war council came up with a solid plan, and Jon made two mistakes; failing to take Sansa's advice seriously, and caring for his brother. Ramsey may have played that particular card well, but what is Jon to do? He's see his little brother running for his life, Ramsey's intentions clear. Is he to do nothing, to sit and watch? It's not being noble, it's not being naive; it's being emotional and reactionary to his brother's life being threatened. Jon, the stalwart of right, irrespective of code or honor (Ygritte, meeting with Mance, allowing the Wildlings passage - all examples of Jon defying convention for what feels right), chases to SAVE his brother. Whether it was bait by Ramsey is irrelevant, because Jon chooses to try.

Tormund highlights this, in pleading under his breath for Jon not to take the bait fully. Jon's emotions take over, and he makes mistake number two. Both are forgivable; his combat prowess outshines Sansa's, and the heat of the moment emotion is also understandable. There's a rawness to him that speaks to us on a level that other characters don't; not many of us are are scheming as Littlefinger, as cruel as Joffrey or Ramsey, or as vicious as the Mountain. Jon makes mistakes, he falls in love with who he wants to, he defies tradition and he acts impulsively. Much like our own lives, he also falls victims to his mistakes and choices, and whilst a lot of the themes and characters in ASOIAF are balanced, morally grey and multi-faceted, Jon is one of the more human characters, who rises from the depths of obscurity to levels he's not totally comfortable with.

The battle takes an interesting turn for Jon, IMO, when he falls from his horse. This is when the contractions start in his rebirth. Watch the scene again; just before he removes his scabbard, he gives a nod, a nod of acceptance IMO. He's accepting his fate, and plans to go down in a blaze of glory. This is rock bottom for him.

Once his death is averted by his own cavalry charging in, instinct takes over, and he fights on. It's brutal, and raw, and full of anger and self-preservation. There's no flair or showmanship. It's abundantly clear he's a very capable swordsman too, much like Ramsey tells him, if the stories are true. One of the best living swordsman in Westeros, maybe?

Anyway, Jon's revival as a character takes a further turn when he's pushed over, and is being trampled on. Credit to the show, because this sequence is terrifying, claustrophobic, and extremely tense. I may be reading too much in to it (and I'm preparing for the quoting of that in relation to the whole post), but I think I hear Jon give a muffled "no" in amongst the shouting and panting. To juxtapose his acceptance of death earlier facing the cavalry charge, he's refusing to die, and choosing to fight on. His gasp of fresh (ish) air as he scurries above the crush of bodies is extremely symbolic; Jon is now reborn into the man he's going to be.

It's telling, that when Tormund saves his ass early in the fight, that he almost has to reassure Jon, giving him a look to snap him out of the red mist that's descended. Come the beating of Ramsey, Jon looks at Sansa and has the humanity to stop and walk away, knowing that Ramsey's life isn't necessarily his to take. It says a lot about him IMO.

There's a lot of subtleties that are depicted, and that's not down to the writers before someone says I'm giving D&D too much credit. That's very much in the direction, and maybe it'll be swept under the rug and Jon will carry on questioning why he's here, but I'd love to hope that we will look back on that battle as the turning point for Jon Snow.

Also, can I just say, that pretty much every second of Dany's scenes were on point. The Dragons looked awesome, riding Drogon actually looked good, the shots of the three dragons dying above Mereen were brilliant and the interaction between Dany, Tyrion, Yara and Theon were some of Dany's best, IMO. We get one of the best episodes of the season, if not one of the best ever, and still people rip it apart. To each his own I guess, but it seems a shame not to enjoy an episode like that.
 

RedShift

Member
If only Ned Stark had taught his son the 4 D's of Dodgearrow. Seriously, he didn't think about maybe weaving a bit?

Also, how did Littlefinger get a huge cavalry army through the Neck? Did they fly over one by one on his jet pack? Or did the Boltons not think it was worth defending Moat Cailin when they were in open rebellion with the south?

Come to it, how did he sneak that army through the riverlands? There's a huge Lannister army near by as well. Jesus.

The battle scenes were cool though.
 
It was a pretty good episode. I have to praise the showrunners this time.

My only complain is that Jon's plot armor was too evident. I know he can't die after all, but surviving all that bloodfest without a horse... and Ramsay was pretty stupid in their "duel".
 
This is about the only example of film/TV I've seen where a cavalry charge liked like it had actual impact. Usually it looks like the horses are gliding through dense formations of people like butter, but you could feel every collision in this.
 
I'm pretty sure that Rickon was screwed regardless of his running pattern. Ramsay was missing him more or less on purpose. The arrow that hit wasn't a high arching arrow it was shot at him. The way the arrow came through his chest was not pointing down, straight through.

Rickon unfortunately was not meant for this game....
 
I stopped watching Linda's reviews for a while but watched the latest one out of curiosity and as usual she does bring up some good criticisms. But on the other hand she has come to a place where she literally won't let herself like anything in the show. She has to be as nitpicky as humanly possible and makes these odd criticisms about the show that she never would about the books. I remember when she criticized the writing in one of the episodes that GRRM wrote and made up the excuse for him that D&D forced George to write a bunch of these shitty lines.
 
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