Well if you go back to the books. Sansa wouldn't actually be in the north with Jon. She'd be coming from the vale unannounced, and this battle would mark the first time a Stark sibling had seen each other since book one (not including bran and rickon traveling togeather in later books.) Combining Jon and Sansa's reunion with this battle would give it extra meaning however since the show used that plot point earlier in the season this battle had less impact then it is probably meant to have
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6
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Well if you go back to the books. Sansa wouldn't actually be in the north with Jon. She'd be coming from the vale unannounced, and this battle would mark the first time a Stark sibling had seen each other since book one (not including bran and rickon traveling togeather in later books.) Combining Jon and Sansa's reunion with this battle would give it extra meaning however since the show used that plot point earlier in the season this battle had less impact then it is probably meant to have
I think we're supposed to take it that Sansa was correct assuming that Ramsay would outsmart Jon.
Maybe they wouldn't have won if she hadn't held that information back. They would have all been in Ramsay's trap.
Jon Snow knows nothing.
The worst part is no one on the show will call her out on it, I'm guessing. She's written to act like an idiot to make a plot point happen, but portrayed as a competent and savvy player.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Sansa didn't know that there knights were coming. She has already told Jon to wait for more men. Sansa was right that Ramsay will be the one laying the trap.
I think the knights situation will clear up in the next episode.
I think the knights situation will clear up in the next episode.
Nazgul_Hunter
Member
There's also the chance she *didn't* know Littlefinger would show up at all. We never saw him responding. There's a good chance they showed up at camp, then she joined them.
Unless you look at the preview for episode ten where Jon is clearly talking to her about it.
WrenchNinja
Member
What men was he supposed to wait for? She kept her mouth shut and didn't put up an argument. And of course Ramsay was going to lay a trap, but she didn't offer anything to expect, just vague nonsense. She complains about not being asked for her insight but then says jackshit of use.
She says basically to forget about Rickon and not make hasty decisions that give Ramsay the advantage. Jon didn't listen.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
she even responds "I don't know anything about battles!!"
lol. Either way if Jon waited around Ramsay would pull off one of his sneak attacks with good men on their camp and they'd be unprepared and fucked. Jon did the best possible thing, only screw up was taking the fight to ramsay so he didn't follow his own plan.
demosthenes
Member
I hope Jon doesn't forget to go burn the field full of bodies now.
And I agree, Sansa was being useless. Jon asked her, what other men. She could have said something about the Vale, that she at least wrote and she didn't. Jon asked what traps and she said she didn't know.
And I agree, Sansa was being useless. Jon asked her, what other men. She could have said something about the Vale, that she at least wrote and she didn't. Jon asked what traps and she said she didn't know.
Peter Ian Staker
Member
She says to Jon not to do what Ramsey expects him to do ==> Jon ignores it completely and Ramsey plays him like a fiddle
It was like a total war game were you lure the stupid AI enemy commander away and then kill him while his army isn't near. Only this time it didn't work because Davos and Tormund had the one brain cell required to see what was about to happen and charged the cavarly to try and save him
You mean get Melisandre to cast a Raise spell on them.
WrenchNinja
Member
That was under the assumption that Rickon was dead. And honestly, she's the one who told him to save him in the first place in 6x04
She is going to betray Jon outright and we all know it. Sansa has no redeeming qualities in my book, she didn't even get her own hands bloody while exacting her revenge.
crimzonflame
Member
Arya will kill Sansa.
We're supposed to see what was basically fortunate happenstance as some shrewd tactical maneuver. That other poster previously put it pretty succinctly, for whatever reason Sansa seems to have forgone giving Jon the heads up. There's literally no reason for it. Even if they holed up, we had WunWun literally slam down the door to Winterfell so it's like eh... It's just supposed to be exciting TV so whatever. Just gonna let it be.
One might read that Sansa can't seem to trust anyone any longer, probably has taken on some sinister edge from all her past. I wouldn't blame her if she had, but I'd wager it won't even be delved into, we're just going to move on with other plotlines. Probably LF fuckery. I don't see her as betraying Jon as much as her shortsightedness fucking things up for people.
One might read that Sansa can't seem to trust anyone any longer, probably has taken on some sinister edge from all her past. I wouldn't blame her if she had, but I'd wager it won't even be delved into, we're just going to move on with other plotlines. Probably LF fuckery. I don't see her as betraying Jon as much as her shortsightedness fucking things up for people.
demosthenes
Member
Yea and it's going to suck.
Sansa screws Jon over. Arya comes back, finds out and gets revenge against Sansa?
Actually, now that Starks have Winterfell and the north back.
1) If King's Landing wasn't about to get messed up probably, would they send an army north or not? It's not like the reiverlands where Frey's could be in charge. There are literally no more Boltons.
2) Word will spread, will Arya find out and start heading there?
edit, god dammit!
edit 2: Really really wish they gave Wunwun a chain or even a tree or something, ugh.
Rather than being so general about giving up on Rickon, and seeing as she knew Ramsay from experience as she so very well put it, she should had told Jon that Ramsay was likely to use Rickon as a bait and detail what that might entail considering Ramsay tendencies (anything from torturing Rickon alive to parading his body).
That was the one advice she could had given to Jon and she failed to properly do so.
After she said even Ramsay's words would disappear even if she was pregnant she would have ended it a long time ago.
Yeah, I think they're going to go back to when even Brienne questioned Sansa on why she didn't alert Jon to the fact that her cousin with a fresh, large army was literally camped already in the North and willing to help retake Winterfell. Sansa should have alerted Jon and his commanders to the Vale force ages ago in the first place and he will rightfully question her about why she didn't. Like that is some major trust issues there.
I fully expect the opening previously segment to have Littlefinger reiterating to her about Jon being her "half-brother".
demosthenes
Member
She's in a position of power now?
This was all LF's master plan to get rid of the Boltons.
Before, Sansa was getting played and didn't realize it. Now, Sansa is getting played thinking she's doing the playing.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
LF seemed like a man with a plan at first but now he just seems bored.
ChaosZeroX
Banned
There's no way she could have known how Ramsay was going to use Rickon, her advice was perfectly fine "don't do what he wants you to do", Jon still didn't listen.
Feels like he was specifically written out of the current dealings for the show when he could have been shown to influence things. To have him show up now, either he's going to be pushed into a position of influence or outright killed. It's one of the two. For all we know he might end up being one of the big players in the final season, but he's been out of the picture for so long I don't know. I agree seeing him back in the spotlight feels weird.
CitizenVectron
Member
Is anyone else amazed that the Iron Fleet circumnavigated the world in around 12 hours? Unless the battle at Mereen was actually going on over the months it would have required. To me that was an even bigger contrived plot point than Littlefinger showing up.
As time goes on and the show changes more and more from the books, I get the feeling that the showrunners are following the LOST pattern: Planning the series a few episodes at a time rather than seasons in advance. I mean, they know they are guaranteed a certain amount of seasons to finish it, so why not plan everything out? Instead they seems to flounder around and introduce things and then drop them (see entire Dorne plot which served no purpose).
As time goes on and the show changes more and more from the books, I get the feeling that the showrunners are following the LOST pattern: Planning the series a few episodes at a time rather than seasons in advance. I mean, they know they are guaranteed a certain amount of seasons to finish it, so why not plan everything out? Instead they seems to flounder around and introduce things and then drop them (see entire Dorne plot which served no purpose).
forgeforsaken
Member
I've long given up on time to travel anywhere making any sense on this show.
No he's not. He makes mistakes, sure but he's not the honorable idiot he is in the show.
They write Jon like he's Ned 2.0 in the show.
InfiniteBento
Member
Littlefinger knows what he is doing.
I still hold onto what Varys said of Littlefinger:
"Littlefinger would see the realm burn if he could be king of the ashes."
She couldn't know what he was going to specifically do with Rickon, but she spent enough time with Ramsay to come to the conclusion that he would use him as bait and prepare Jon to the worst case scenario of having to ignore Rickon circumstances (even if Jon acted as he did).
Instead she just yelled at him completely generic advice with no true insight to Ramsay character. "Don't do what he wants you to do" means nothing, you never plan to do what your opponent wanted you to, which is why Jon appropriate let her know he didn't intended to.
What Sansa could have brought to the table was insight on Ramsay, but when pressed about it she failed to say anything that wouldn't apply to any other person in Ramsay position.
Last Hearth
Member
So last week some people objected when I said this show is basically appealing to the Transformer audience.
But is there any doubt after this episode? Sure, it was a decently shot and staged battle/action scene, but is there anything to the show beyond that?
The characters' actions defied all logic, the dead bodies piling up on itself in the middle of an open field defied the laws of physic, the outcome was never in doubt despite hamfisted attempts to get the audience to think otherwise.
And let's not even mention that the site where Stannis was camped and Shireen was burnt is now confirmed to be right next to Winterfell, so why did Stannis have to burn her again?
But is there any doubt after this episode? Sure, it was a decently shot and staged battle/action scene, but is there anything to the show beyond that?
The characters' actions defied all logic, the dead bodies piling up on itself in the middle of an open field defied the laws of physic, the outcome was never in doubt despite hamfisted attempts to get the audience to think otherwise.
And let's not even mention that the site where Stannis was camped and Shireen was burnt is now confirmed to be right next to Winterfell, so why did Stannis have to burn her again?
Twist ending where Stoneheart shows up and butchers everyone? Seems silly for her to show up at this point considering the time lapse but it'd be one of those dumb shock beats the showrunners love.
Events are edited for dramatic effect. Several weeks often pass in the course of a single episode.
Jon is an oathbreaker, that's willing to take child hostages and kill them(unlike Daenerys), and he's made threats to burn a baby to make Gilly do what she wants (kinda like Jaime did with Edmure), and he's willing to break his word if he thinks they're necessary to his goals
Seriously. I still find it weird how some people seem to think they're watching an episode of 24 when it comes to this show.
Yeah it was crazy how fast they moved. But we're all well-served by letting it slide. We know from the books what the alternative is, and it's a like four different POV-travelogues dragging on for hundreds of pages mumbling about where whores go.
Stop being a clown.
I'm pretty sure Lord Royce and her cousin could have assuaged her fears, but instead she decides to waste Brienne on a fool's errand to fetch her old ass uncle who's holed up in his castle surrounded by enemies. I can only assume several weeks if not months have passed since her escape, so she had plenty of time and urgency to find out if LF was on the up and up.
Maybe I'm being overly bullish, but I just can't let this go because it's the shitty culmination of a shitty plot thread going back to last season when Sansa decided to marry her family's betrayers and consolidate their power, only to end up getting raped day in and day out and accomplishing literally nothing.
It's a bit jarring when you have one storyline taking place in the space of days and another in a space of weeks/months, especially when the storyline intertwine as they did with Theon and his sister meeting with Danny this week.
He's gone full on Frodo post-Mount Doom at this point.
Lots of gaffers going full Ned Stark on this Sansa stuff.
Saying that Sansa should have told Jon about Littlefinger coming and used that extra information to save lives is stupid. If the game of thrones has one rule it's don't trust Peter Beilish Littlefinger could have just as easily joined the fight on team Bolton or not shown up at all. Planning a battle Stratergy that relies on Littlefinger to be reliable and predictable is incredibly stupid.
Sansa did everything right. She asked Jon to come up with a good plan. Told him to gather as many men as possible, warned him to be aware of Ramsey's provocations. And had 2 contingency plans. ( Littlefinger and Suicide)
Jon ignores every good piece of advice he gets, surviving purely on his +20 Plot Armour and suddenly it's the fault of his advisors that Jon ignored them and acted like an idiot.
I don't understand people who watch this show sometimes
Saying that Sansa should have told Jon about Littlefinger coming and used that extra information to save lives is stupid. If the game of thrones has one rule it's don't trust Peter Beilish Littlefinger could have just as easily joined the fight on team Bolton or not shown up at all. Planning a battle Stratergy that relies on Littlefinger to be reliable and predictable is incredibly stupid.
Sansa did everything right. She asked Jon to come up with a good plan. Told him to gather as many men as possible, warned him to be aware of Ramsey's provocations. And had 2 contingency plans. ( Littlefinger and Suicide)
Jon ignores every good piece of advice he gets, surviving purely on his +20 Plot Armour and suddenly it's the fault of his advisors that Jon ignored them and acted like an idiot.
I don't understand people who watch this show sometimes
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Well they left early in the morning.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Jon is so fucking badass.
Twilight Princess
Member
Does Sansa even know if/when LF is coming?
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