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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6

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Black_Sun

Member
If the Northeners starting deferring to Jon, we riot.

He nearly got his forces entirely decimated with an idiot move and he demonstrated absolutely no leadership or generating within that battle at all.

The entire battle he was playing a common foot soldier.

The entire battle on his end was charge, get shot at by arrows, Davos' men charge, they get encircled and then LF saves their asses.
 
Yeah, one of the more intriguing mysteries are the 5 forts.


Though I doubt any of this will factor into the story later on even if these forts have a history with the white walkers and the Long Night.

Sadly, you're probably right. I guess it all depends on what the actual endgame will be in this series, but it seems unlikely there'll even be any mention of the oily black stones...

...which seem to be gaining relevance, given Euron's rise (in the books) and how he's likened to a monstrous Kraken that will rise from the sea, in a number of references or in the dreams of other characters (Dany, for one). The oily stones are a reference to Lovecraft, which, if I'm remembering this correctly, also point to the tentacle beast of apocalypse itself, Cthulhu.

I think they may be of greater importance in the books, as they seem to be in connection to what Euron may or may not have seen or experienced on his travels, and if he ever went to or near Asshi. We know he went to Valyria, or so he has claimed.
 

Apt101

Member
If the Northeners starting deferring to Jon, we riot.

He nearly got his forces entirely decimated with an idiot move and he demonstrated absolutely no leadership or generating within that battle at all.

The entire battle he was playing a common foot soldier.

The entire battle on his end was charge, get shot at by arrows, Davos' men charge, they get encircled and then LF saves their asses.

Well here's the thing: prior to experiencing death he was a common noble-educated person who approached tactics as such a person would. It's now clear he is truly fearless when the cards are down and is driven by passion. He died, afterall. Remember ( from the books) when he was actually bothered by being called a bastard? Or dwelled on romantic pursuits? He's all fury and sunset and honor now - just like his "father". Sansa is the brains. It will work out in the end.

And by the way, if he didn't charge the way he did they would have lost. Even if the Vale had arrived.

EDIT: Also plothole: Sansa didn't stick around long enough to learn Ramsay had not fed his hounds in seven days. Whatever.
 

Matsukaze

Member
If the Northeners starting deferring to Jon, we riot.

He nearly got his forces entirely decimated with an idiot move and he demonstrated absolutely no leadership or generating within that battle at all.

The entire battle he was playing a common foot soldier.

The entire battle on his end was charge, get shot at by arrows, Davos' men charge, they get encircled and then LF saves their asses.
Next episode should open with Lady Mormont taking Jon to task for his hotheadedness. Just five minutes of her giving him the death stare and pointing out everything he did wrong while he tries to avoid eye contact.
 

emag

Member
The show hasn't really let characters (not named Gendry) just go away and be in peace. It wouldn't surprise me if Jaqen reappeared in Old Town next season. They need to find someway to kill him off after all.

Next episode, Hot Pie returns to bake the Freys into pastries.
 
The Vale, Reach and Dorne have been unaffected by the wars so far.

You say the Reach has been unaffected but you seem to forget that the Reach has provided massive amounts of resources towards King's Landing, along with their own troops.
So while they weren't directly affected, they certainly were affected.
 
"Yet mysteries remain. The stony island where the Hightower stands is known as Battle Isle even in our oldest records, but why? What battle was fought there? When? Between which lords, which kings, which races? Even the singers are largely silent on these matters. Even more enigmatic to scholars and historians is the great square fortress of black stone that dominates that isle. For most of recorded history, this monumental edifice has served as the foundation and lowest level of the Hightower, yet we know for a certainty that it predates the upper levels of the tower by thousands of years."

"When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky. (Many scholars count the Bloodstone Emperor as the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom, which persists to this day in many port cities throughout the known world). In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men."
 

Santiako

Member
What an amazing episode. I wonder if Sansa went all Littlefinger on his brothers to remove them from the succession line to Winterfell or if she's just an idiot who didn't mention that the Vale might be coming to help.
 

mantidor

Member
Rewatching the episode now. I love how the camera pans across Baelish and Sansa and Petyr gives his trademark smile, then Sansa looks down on Jon in something resembling pity. Then it shows Ramsay and the promise of victory and Sansa flashes the same manner of smile.

She's going to be the conqueror I think.

How did I miss this obvious thing? They are totally trying to position Sansa as Littlefinger 2.0, those smirks are Littlefinger's trademark. But, is she really at that level? I don't think she is.
 

Apt101

Member
You say the Reach has been unaffected but you seem to forget that the Reach has provided massive amounts of resources towards King's Landing, along with their own troops.
So while they weren't directly affected, they certainly were affected.

The Reach, and therefore the Tyrells, essentially feed the South. They also provide massive amounts of gold to the crown.

This means dick in the show though.
 
The Reach, and therefore the Tyrells, essentially feed the South. They also provide massive amounts of gold to the crown.

Plus the war expenses of course. Olenna makes quite a clear point about that when she talks with Tyrion in season 3.

This means dick in the show though.

image.php
 

Apt101

Member
How did I miss this obvious thing? They are totally trying to position Sansa as Littlefinger 2.0, those smirks are Littlefinger's trademark. But, is she really at that level? I don't think she is.

What is the "level" really? She has been through the worst and learned from the best. It seems to me, at least, that GRRM would transform a character who is very pretty and wanted to a be a lady into something even worse than the most vile manipulators in the story - all to bring about the joyous end the readers would typically expect.

I'm guessing she's going to end up worse than Petyr but no one will ever know about it.
 
wasn't the first time in GoT, either (and it happened again in LotR, too)
Stannis' attack on KL
Wildling battle at the Wall

I'm getting kinda tired of this trope

It's more permissible for a siege situation like Helms Deep or Minas Tirith, IMO.

A situation with two armies on the field, just come across much more awkwardly.
 
So there has to be a reason why GRRM kept this as a secret all this years (if its really true)

if it doesn't affect him politically, it will have to be connected to the Fight with the White Walkers - maybe him beeing Azor Ahai (Blood of Fire (Targaryen) and Ice (Stark)
Power of Warging and riding Dragons

There are all types of rumors about evidence of Jon's heritage being in the Winterfell crypt. Perhaps Rhaegar's harp or something more overt. Perhaps Martin is drawing off Arthur legend, given some of the coincidences.

Sir Lancelot is orphaned as a baby, and raised by the lady of the lake. He becomes a knight to King Arthur, and conquers a keep called the Dolorous Gard where Queen Guinevere is being held. He renames it the Joyous Gard. In the graveyard is a tomb covered by a giant jeweled metal slab, engraved to indicate that only the man who conquers the keep will be able to lift it. He lifts the tomb’s slab with ease, and beneath it is written “Here will lie Lancelot of the Lake, the Son of King Ban.” He thus learns he is a prince inside a grave.

I think Reed will confirm his heritage and perhaps the crypt will prove it. But I do agree that Jon will not sit the Iron Throne as a recognized Targaryen.
 

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
Well, this was really awesome, Both battle of ice and of fire.
Even though nothing made more than a smidgeon of sense, i want to ask one, main question that's plagued me for most of the episode:

Why on earth is Wun-Wun unarmed?
Seriously, give that giant something. Anything. Hell, a tree.

Highlights were definitely Sansa going Darth and watching the dogs, Wun-Wun charging through the castle gates, Jon parrying the hits, Drogon showing up, Tyrion describing stuff being cooler than watching said stuff happen, and Yara in general. And Ramsay in general - Rheon's knocked it out of the park.
So, really, most of the episode. Directing and cinematography were awesome for the entire battle, even if it has more plotholes than the average colander, with things like "How did the Vale knights arrive undetected to Winterfell", "Just how thick is Jon Snow's Plot Armor", "Why is Ramsay standing isolated and ready to take an arrow in the neck", "who managed that impossible shot on Rickon and why was he running in a straight line"

But who cares. That was awesome.
And by Hollywood standards, a very accurate battle. There's even tactics! - probably the best medioeval battle put on screen since Minas Tirith.
 
I have long had the thought that no one will sit on the Iron Throne, once all is said and done. How/why... dunno. But it just seems fitting that the thing that everyone is wanting and fighting each other over is taken/given/claimed by no one in the end.
 

Speevy

Banned
They should have let Queen Mormont talk down to Satan before the battle.

Sansa's about to open her mouth and Lyanna's like "We're going to rape your fucking corpse, bastard." Then she knocks Smalljon Umber off his horse and beats him to death his own shield.
 

Apt101

Member
Sansa has had her innocence peeled away like an onion. Cersei dispelling the myths of the court. The Hound dispelling the myth of knighthood. Baelish revealing how The Game is actually played and what it all means. Ramsay took her last vestiges of humanity. Theon showed her that even broken men will still serve those they were told to be loyal to.

She watched her noble father die for idealism and then manipulated her brother Jon while realizing he's a tool to be leveraged. She even coldly watched him charge into near certain death to claim a prize she needed.

We've been led to believe that Arya is the avenging angel character, but the entire time it's Sansa. The North Remembers and all that. Hell, even the scene with Baelish just glanced over him, barely giving him two seconds of screen time - he ain't shit no more.

If Sansa doesn't sit the Iron Throne at this point I will be surprised.
 

Black_Sun

Member
"Yet mysteries remain. The stony island where the Hightower stands is known as Battle Isle even in our oldest records, but why? What battle was fought there? When? Between which lords, which kings, which races? Even the singers are largely silent on these matters. Even more enigmatic to scholars and historians is the great square fortress of black stone that dominates that isle. For most of recorded history, this monumental edifice has served as the foundation and lowest level of the Hightower, yet we know for a certainty that it predates the upper levels of the tower by thousands of years."

"When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. He practiced dark arts, torture, and necromancy, enslaved his people, took a tiger-woman for his bride, feasted on human flesh, and cast down the true gods to worship a black stone that had fallen from the sky. (Many scholars count the Bloodstone Emperor as the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom, which persists to this day in many port cities throughout the known world). In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night. Despairing of the evil that had been unleashed on earth, the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth in all his wroth to punish the wickedness of men."

I just realized that the Bloodstone Emperor is a direct foreshadowing of Book Euron and what he's going to do.
 

Black_Sun

Member
Well here's the thing: prior to experiencing death he was a common noble-educated person who approached tactics as such a person would. It's now clear he is truly fearless when the cards are down and is driven by passion. He died, afterall. Remember ( from the books) when he was actually bothered by being called a bastard? Or dwelled on romantic pursuits? He's all fury and sunset and honor now - just like his "father". Sansa is the brains. It will work out in the end.

And by the way, if he didn't charge the way he did they would have lost. Even if the Vale had arrived.

EDIT: Also plothole: Sansa didn't stick around long enough to learn Ramsay had not fed his hounds in seven days. Whatever.

That's a big problem. Show Ned's whole thing is that he was a follower not a born leader. Jon Snow is being positioned to be the King in the North but he doesn't actually know how to lead. Do we really want Jon to become another Show Ned Stark? Too honorable to live?

Anyways this is kind of a divergence from where Book Jon has been going. Book Jon is downright dishonorable.
 

Matsukaze

Member
If Sansa doesn't sit the Iron Throne at this point I will be surprised.
Would Sansa really want to put a bullseye on her back, though? The Iron Throne is a big neon sign that says "Please kill me". Seems to me she would have an easier time manipulating the North and holding sway over a chunk of Westeros as Warden of the North rather than trying to dominate all seven kingdoms.
 

Black_Sun

Member
Sansa has had her innocence peeled away like an onion. Cersei dispelling the myths of the court. The Hound dispelling the myth of knighthood. Baelish revealing how The Game is actually played and what it all means. Ramsay took her last vestiges of humanity. Theon showed her that even broken men will still serve those they were told to be loyal to.

She watched her noble father die for idealism and then manipulated her brother Jon while realizing he's a tool to be leveraged. She even coldly watched him charge into near certain death to claim a prize she needed.

We've been led to believe that Arya is the avenging angel character, but the entire time it's Sansa. The North Remembers and all that. Hell, even the scene with Baelish just glanced over him, barely giving him two seconds of screen time - he ain't shit no more.

If Sansa doesn't sit the Iron Throne at this point I will be surprised.

It's unlikely there will be an Iron Throne to sit after King's Landing is blown up.

Unless Sansa marries Jon Snow, she can at best be the Queen in the North.
 

dubq

Member
Take a drink every time someone in this thread pisses and/or moans about the time it takes people to travel places in the show. You'll be hammered in no time.
 
Has any thought been given to what the Long Night war was now that we know White Walkers were made by the Children of the Forest, thus probably weren't the enemies during the Long Night or am I getting my timelines mixed up?
 

dabig2

Member
If anyone doubts Mel's power, by burning just one little girl, she's kept back the snow in the north for months.

I've heard the term "el Shireeno" used before. It's funny how winter was so bad mere leagues away from Winterfell that Stannis had to use that dark magic just to clear things up, and several months the magic is still holding effect. Shit looked like early fall last episode; 40-degree type weather where you might not be barbecuing, but at least you can still war.
 
What an unbelievably infuriating episode. The lengths they go to set up the most boring and overwrought story cliches is intolerable.

I don't care how much they hype up the 'realism of true medieval tactics' if they're going to ignore the impact that a giant would have if properly utilized.
 

Speevy

Banned
Every giant that's ever been portrayed on film has limits. He always comes into contact with a barrier he can't overcome.

Good giants and bad giants. Wun Wun isn't a god, and he's bigger on the show than he is in the books.
 
I just realized that the Bloodstone Emperor is a direct foreshadowing of Book Euron and what he's going to do.

It's pretty heavy handed in its implications.

Also, something I've wondered...


Damphair: “You have sons.”

Euron: “Baseborn mongrels, born of whores and weepers.”

Damphair: “They are of your body.”

Euron: “So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the Seastone Chair, much less the Iron Throne. No, to make an heir that’s worthy of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware.”



Who is the "him" that Euron references here?
 
Of course there's limits, but a small-medium sized tree trunk that he just sweeps around would have completely upended just about the whole battle. You just can't talk about how realistic you're doing something and then say with a straight face that the realistic strategy for a giant would be for him to fight purely with his fists. It's ultimately a minor issue because there were far bigger problems (plus they easily could have written it such that he was dead at Hardholme), it was just the cherry on top of an extremely contrived, but extremely well-filmed, episode. They absolutely got their monies worth.
 

.JayZii

Banned
It's pretty heavy handed in its implications.

Also, something I've wondered...


Damphair: “You have sons.”

Euron: “Baseborn mongrels, born of whores and weepers.”

Damphair: “They are of your body.”

Euron: “So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the Seastone Chair, much less the Iron Throne. No, to make an heir that’s worthy of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds th e dragon, brother, let all the world beware.”



Who is the "him" that Euron references here?
The Drowned God? I'm not sure.
 

GorillaJu

Member
I've seen that theory before, and sorry but it comes off as very trite and .. well.. bs.

There was no downside to her revealing to her brother that their uncle was ready to join with 4000ish mounted knights.
I thought the original reason was her doubts about LF and the price to pay given her suspicions about him, while her brother would have been all too eager to say yes, but given her quasi certainty they were going to lose, and that she wrote the letter anyway, her not telling Jon only brings one conclusion:
She wanted the wildling army to take massive losses (to weaken Jon), and if her brother happened to die in the process, oh well.

Unless the show can find a really good reasoning during the next episode, Sanda is basically turning into a minor vilain for the sake of revenge and power grab.

Why would Sansa want to weaken Jon? She convinced him in the first place that the North needs to be saved. He wanted to fulfill his duty to the Night's Watch but understood the gravity of the circumstances due to Sansa.

Sansa wanted Jon to wait until they had the forces. I think she just didn't want to tell Jon "well maybe sort of we might have some dudes coming from the Vale" especially because Jon had already mobilized his side. Telling them to back down to wait for someone who might not come wouldn't have gone down well among the advisers either.
 

mantidor

Member
Sansa has had her innocence peeled away like an onion. Cersei dispelling the myths of the court. The Hound dispelling the myth of knighthood. Baelish revealing how The Game is actually played and what it all means. Ramsay took her last vestiges of humanity. Theon showed her that even broken men will still serve those they were told to be loyal to.

She watched her noble father die for idealism and then manipulated her brother Jon while realizing he's a tool to be leveraged. She even coldly watched him charge into near certain death to claim a prize she needed.

We've been led to believe that Arya is the avenging angel character, but the entire time it's Sansa. The North Remembers and all that. Hell, even the scene with Baelish just glanced over him, barely giving him two seconds of screen time - he ain't shit no more.

If Sansa doesn't sit the Iron Throne at this point I will be surprised.

Definitely. She knew Rickon was a goner, she still used him to push Jon to rally the northern houses, I don't think she is cold towards her siblings, but she knows the stakes, and she will never go back to be someone's plaything to be tortured, even if it means having to make sacrifices, that much was clear. But also Jon was simply not listening to her, she had to come up with something else.

But when I'm talking about Littlefinger's level I'm talking about how he manipulates everyone around him and its two steps ahead all the time, I don't think Sansa is that skilled at manipulation yet, and its worse since she's a young woman, people dismiss her all the time, her own brother dismissed her advice. She did learn a thing or two from Margeary/Oleena, but she is nowhere near their skills, for now.
 
Every giant that's ever been portrayed on film has limits. He always comes into contact with a barrier he can't overcome.

Good giants and bad giants. Wun Wun isn't a god, and he's bigger on the show than he is in the books.

I just think it's a Greatjon situation. He has to die but we wish he could have gone out in a better way. Budget and all that, of course, but they could have had a ballista or something set up specifically to take him out.
 

Black_Sun

Member
It's pretty heavy handed in its implications.

Also, something I've wondered...


Damphair: “You have sons.”

Euron: “Baseborn mongrels, born of whores and weepers.”

Damphair: “They are of your body.”

Euron: “So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the Seastone Chair, much less the Iron Throne. No, to make an heir that’s worthy of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware.”



Who is the "him" that Euron references here?

Bloodraven.

Euron's been aping him for a while.
 
Nah. Euron doesn't give a single fig about the Drowned God. He even mocks the Drowned God.

He may even want to slaughter this "drowned god".

TWOW spoilers:

The newest chapter that George has revealed is implying some pretty dark shit that Euron may be preparing to do- as in a massive blood sacrifice outside of Oldtown.
 

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
It's pretty heavy handed in its implications.

Also, something I've wondered...


Damphair: “You have sons.”

Euron: “Baseborn mongrels, born of whores and weepers.”

Damphair: “They are of your body.”

Euron: “So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the Seastone Chair, much less the Iron Throne. No, to make an heir that’s worthy of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware.”



Who is the "him" that Euron references here?
iirc, the prevailing theory has been that Euron is referring to the Great Other/Nights King and wants a more suitable sacrifice than the bastard sons that Craster gave.
 
This just occured to me, but if the White Walkers cross the wall in the season finale, that's a hell of a lot of corpses outside Winterfell for the Night's King to add to his army, isn't it?
 
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