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[Admiral Woofington]

You do realize how ridiculous you sound, right?

What? How do I sound ridiculous? You're making an apologist comment for an author who is now infamous for taking forever when other authors can write much better content in a fraction of the time.

Are we going to excuse the Berserk author now for taking forever?

 

[Gigglepoo]

Other authors aren't GRRM. The only thing that matters is how good it is when it comes out, 100 years from now when people look back at this series they're not going to give a shit that it took a long time to create.

You sound just like me! Also in 100 years, no one will care that the show finished first.

 

[Cromwell]

other authors can write much better content in a fraction of the time.

Highly, highly debatable. I read a lot of fantasy and in my opinion GRRM is the single best fantasy author since Tolkein. But even that aside, it still doesn't matter how long he takes.

You sound just like me! Also in 100 years, no one will care that the show finished first.

Exactly.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Highly, highly debatable. I read a lot of fantasy and in my opinion GRRM is the single best fantasy author since Tolkein. But even that aside, it still doesn't matter how long he takes.

Well I guess I'm at the complete opposite spectrum where no matter how much I might enjoy his work I enjoy others more and can't excuse an author who takes as long as he does. And if he actually finishes the novels I'll eat a boot.

 

[Gigglepoo]

What? How do I sound ridiculous? You're making an apologist comment for an author who is now infamous for taking forever when other authors can write much better content in a fraction of the time.

Are we going to excuse the Berserk author now for taking forever?

The fact that you call it "content" tells me everything I need to know.

 

[Cromwell]

The fact that you call it "content" tells me everything I need to know.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Let's drop it now because the way you're attempting to take this conversation isn't going to go anywhere productive.

 

[duckroll]

Oh are we doing the boring ass "GRRM is so slow" thing again? The concern shouldn't really be that he's slow, it should be that he's clearly stuck now. Given his output prior to being stuck post-SoS, I think we can safely say that him taking longer on something is a fair indication of the quality eventually being lower too. Should have gone with the 5 year time skip!

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Oh are we doing the boring ass "GRRM is so slow" thing again? The concern shouldn't really be that he's slow, it should be that he's clearly stuck now. Given his output prior to being stuck post-SoS, I think we can safely say that him taking longer on something is a fair indication of the quality eventually being lower too. Should have stuck with the 5 year time skip!

Based on the recent interview/discussion with Stephen King where he asked how King can write so much when he can write a few pages at a day really does show he's struggling or can't come up with a concrete vision at this point. A feast for crows and Dance with Dragons weren't a good indicator for me as to the quality of the content based on the earlier novels. And adding more novels to the list and still struggling with releasing Winds of Winter?

I'll give it to him though, at least he didn't reach this point on his third book, like Rothfuss.

 

[LowRoller]

I believe in GRRM after reading that Aeron chapter from TWOW.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Oh are we doing the boring ass "GRRM is so slow" thing again? The concern shouldn't really be that he's slow, it should be that he's clearly stuck now. Given his output prior to being stuck post-SoS, I think we can safely say that him taking longer on something is a fair indication of the quality eventually being lower too. Should have gone with the 5 year time skip!

Exactly, it's not about being a slow writer or not writing because "fuck you, fans", he's obviously stuck.

 

[Speevy]

Exactly, it's not about being a slow writer or not writing because "fuck you, fans", he's obviously stuck.

Stuck like Gilly is stuck in Silent Hill for the Playstation 1.

 

[Madness]

Exactly, it's not about being a slow writer or not writing because "fuck you, fans", he's obviously stuck.

Yup. If it takes a writer this long to finish it is becauae he does not know how or where he wants the story to go. The last two books show this as well because they introduced a shit ton of new characters and stories that he is probably having trouble bringing together or making meaningful.

I wouldn't be surprised if he looks at what is happening with the show and borrows a little for the books ie. Margaery's character, Ramsay etc.

 

[Cromwell]

I'm fine with him taking another 5 years if it means another POV as strong as Theon in DwD. Absolutely riveting, brilliantly atmospheric writing.

 

[elrechazado]

That was Pycelle. Varys advised Aerys against opening the city to the Lannisters.



Other authors don't often have to go through the likes of the Meereenese Knot. GRRM has more to do than just type.

Varys was the one who fed aerys' obsession with rhaegar looking to supplant him. He did way more than pycelle to set the downfall in motion.
Opening the gate didnt really do anything anyway. The city had a few goldcloaks left, no targ armies, and Ned and Tywin both had hosts there at the same time.

 

[wesleyshark]

I believe in GRRM after reading that Aeron chapter from TWOW.

Hell yes. That was one of the best chapters he's ever written.

I don't care if it takes another 5 years. It'll be worth it.

 

[Kozak]

However you feel about GRRM and his writing speed, there's no doubt that he has taken too long in getting the books written.

The fact that the show has surpassed the books is evidence enough.

The show shouldn't have been agreed upon if the books weren't going to be ready.

I'm happy it exists but I think it was quite unprofessional for a show whose source material wasn't even finished yet to come to fruition.. I don't know where the blame lies, on HBO for pursuing it to the point of pressuring Martin? Or on Martin for rushing into things a bit early?

 

[wesleyshark]

I don't think an author is beholden to finishing their own work at the whim/complaint/whine of any one reader or group of readers. George is writing at the pace he wants, and that's that.

 

[Cromwell]

However you feel about GRRM and his writing speed, there's no doubt that he has taken too long in getting the books written.

The fact that the show has surpassed the books is evidence enough.

The show shouldn't have been agreed upon if the books weren't going to be ready.

I'm happy it exists but I think it was quite unprofessional for a show whose source material wasn't even finished yet to come to fruition.. I don't know where the blame lies, on HBO for pursuing it to the point of pressuring Martin? Or on Martin for rushing into things a bit early?

Fuck no to all of this. He's entitled to sell it to HBO. He's written a shit ton of books and was in his late 60's, if he had the chance to make a ton of money and go on vacations with his wife he earned it.

 

[il Diavolo]

god i love frinkiac

 

[Speevy]

god i love frinkiac

Except they spelled it wrong, so he's back alive now. Thanks Krusty.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Except they spelled it wrong, so he's back alive now. Thanks Krusty.

How many times did Jaime lose and regain his hands when people pronounced his name with the Spanish "ha-ee-meh"?

 

[Skilletor]

Based on the recent interview/discussion with Stephen King where he asked how King can write so much when he can write a few pages at a day really does show he's struggling or can't come up with a concrete vision at this point. A feast for crows and Dance with Dragons weren't a good indicator for me as to the quality of the content based on the earlier novels. And adding more novels to the list and still struggling with releasing Winds of Winter?

I'll give it to him though, at least he didn't reach this point on his third book, like Rothfuss.

I wouldn't say that, since, if he were ever able to do that, then he wouldn't be surprised that King can.

More likely that writers have difference processes and King and Martin are entirely different.

Yeah, King writes a fuckton, but there was also a 6 year gap between Wastelands and Wizard and glass, and then another 6 year gap between wizard and glass and the wolves of calla. That's the only thing even comparable to the scope and size of Martin's books that King has done, and he stalled as well, then finished the last three books within a couple years.

You can't compare like to like with art. It's fucking art. Yeah, it's likely that Martin is stuck, but if that's part of his process, then that's what it is, and, as a writer, I can respect that.

 

[KahooTs]

Oh are we doing the boring ass "GRRM is so slow" thing again? The concern shouldn't really be that he's slow, it should be that he's clearly stuck now. Given his output prior to being stuck post-SoS, I think we can safely say that him taking longer on something is a fair indication of the quality eventually being lower too. Should have gone with the 5 year time skip!

I'm glad GRRM doesn't write for those who think this sort of nonsense.

 

[higgsboson1997]

I believe in GRRM after reading that Aeron chapter from TWOW.

I didn't like that chapter much at all - he's giving all characters prophetic dreams, and is making Euron a little too cartoony for my taste.

This, plus the really mediocre last 2 books that completely diluted the focus of the series for me, make me fear a bit for the quality of TWOW. I started the series in 2005 just before Feast, loved the first three books, but he hasn't written anything I liked a lot in the 11 years since (apart from the Blackwater episode ).

 

[Admiral Woofington]

I wouldn't say that, since, if he were ever able to do that, then he wouldn't be surprised that King can.

More likely that writers have difference processes and King and Martin are entirely different.

Yeah, King writes a fuckton, but there was also a 6 year gap between Wastelands and Wizard and glass, and then another 6 year gap between wizard and glass and the wolves of calla. That's the only thing even comparable to the scope and size of Martin's books that King has done, and he stalled as well, then finished the last three books within a couple years.

You can't compare like to like with art. It's fucking art. Yeah, it's likely that Martin is stuck, but if that's part of his process, then that's what it is, and, as a writer, I can respect that.

The writing process may be different and yes it's nuts to compare to the other. I mean between every dark tower novel there were so many books king wrote that hey maybe that made it he never reached a point of major writers block. But I'm talking out of my ass with King unless he has specifically given interviews discussing this, I wouldn't know as I don't really follow him enough to read over every interview he goes over.

GRRM's writing style does seem like he has reached some kind of point he doesn't know what to do though. At this point maybe it wouldn't be a half bad idea to attempt to write something else if in reality he is struggling. I enjoyed a discussion between two people who are so different on writing though. I mean King has the 6 pages a day philosophy when he's writing. Not every book he makes is great, but hey admirable that his work ethic reached such a point and he became as successful as he did while writing some novels that have made some great films. And maybe the dark tower tv will be amazing so something else to look forward to.

 

[il Diavolo]

Except they spelled it wrong, so he's back alive now. Thanks Krusty.

john snow

 

[Skilletor]

The writing process may be different and yes it's nuts to compare to the other. I mean between every dark tower novel there were so many books king wrote that hey maybe that made it he never reached a point of major writers block. But I'm talking out of my ass with King unless he has specifically given interviews discussing this, I wouldn't know as I don't really follow him enough to read over every interview he goes over.

GRRM's writing style does seem like he has reached some kind of point he doesn't know what to do though. At this point maybe it wouldn't be a half bad idea to attempt to write something else if in reality he is struggling. I enjoyed a discussion between two people who are so different on writing though. I mean King has the 6 pages a day philosophy when he's writing. Not every book he makes is great, but hey admirable that his work ethic reached such a point and he became as successful as he did while writing some novels that have made some great films. And maybe the dark tower tv will be amazing so something else to look forward to.

King has written a lot about it. He was afraid to finish the books. He always used the analogy of a key and said it became harder and harder to find. He apologized a lot about it. He didn't know how to continue, he became afriad of Roland. Lots of things. Then when he had his accident, he felt he had an obligation to finish it, and honestly, I think the quality of the books suffered because of that mindset.

I think King believes so as well. He's called the final books (or maybe the entire series) a first draft. Recently he's talked about going back and doing another pass at them. I wouldn't be surprised if he's working on them between all of his other projects.

 

[Forsaken82]

Yup. If it takes a writer this long to finish it is becauae he does not know how or where he wants the story to go. The last two books show this as well because they introduced a shit ton of new characters and stories that he is probably having trouble bringing together or making meaningful.

I wouldn't be surprised if he looks at what is happening with the show and borrows a little for the books ie. Margaery's character, Ramsay etc.

You are assuming that the show isn't going off his manuscript, which I am pretty sure it is, so yeah... it SHOULDN'T be surprising if certain character arcs echo that of the show...

 

[KahooTs]

You are assuming that the show isn't going off his manuscript, which I am pretty sure it is, so yeah... it SHOULDN'T be surprising if certain character arcs echo that of the show...

Ugh.

OH and also GRRM talked about Dorne! He wasn't exactly dissing the show, but he didn't have anything good to say about it. One guy talked asked if season 6 would spoil the books for him. Something like "Don't think what happens in the show will happen in the books, the show is completely different. The books will be nothing like that." You could really feel the dislike he had for it.

 

[Cromwell]

OH and also GRRM talked about Dorne! He wasn't exactly dissing the show, but he didn't have anything good to say about it. One guy talked asked if season 6 would spoil the books for him. Something like "Don't think what happens in the show will happen in the books, the show is completely different. The books will be nothing like that." You could really feel the dislike he had for it.

My man

 

[jdstorm]

That was Pycelle. Varys advised Aerys against opening the city to the Lannisters.



Other authors don't often have to go through the likes of the Meereenese Knot. GRRM has more to do than just type.

Even Jamie Lannister thought it was a bad idea. Aerys was just senile at that point.

People keep talking about Peytr having Control of the North now, and while he's a scheming little bastard, what would he want the North for? No one cares about the North except Northmen.

It's much easier to rule over a kingdom when you have the support of the people and Littlefinger wants to be King

Littlefinger seems like a safe bet as the conduit for that information, at least for the show. I kinda hope they do something a little more unexpected, but the LF angle works well enough.

I'd bet Arya Stark Via Howland Ried. If she kills Walter Frey soon she will be close enough to where Howland Reid Lives to recruit him.

 

[Kozak]

Dunno if this has been posted yet..

Interview with Iwan Rheon (Ramsay)

http://www.harpersbazaar.com/cultur.../iwan-rheon-battle-of-the-bastards-interview/

Awesome interview. Great actor.

 

[Aurongel]

However you feel about GRRM and his writing speed, there's no doubt that he has taken too long in getting the books written.

The fact that the show has surpassed the books is evidence enough.

The show shouldn't have been agreed upon if the books weren't going to be ready.

I'm happy it exists but I think it was quite unprofessional for a show whose source material wasn't even finished yet to come to fruition.. I don't know where the blame lies, on HBO for pursuing it to the point of pressuring Martin? Or on Martin for rushing into things a bit early?

The show is its' own thing and the quality of it doesn't add or subtract from the novels. I don't get the relationship you're describing here.

 

[Speevy]

GRRM isn't some snobby little fanboy. I'm sure he sat there enjoying the Battle of the Bastards with a giant smile on his face like the rest of us.

Something is clearly keeping him from finishing his books.

Think about it.

If D and D aren't completely lying, which would be grounds for a lawsuit, he's told them the broad strokes.

And if the broad strokes are these, they're fairly predictable, which is something the first three books are not.

I mean, we can laugh about D and D's hack writing all day long, but their job will soon be over. They certainly haven't kept George from finishing his books.

 

[Sheroking]

My only criticism of George Martin is that, as he takes longer to write these books, they get worse.

It's been 16 years since he published the last truly great novel in this series IMO.

GRRM isn't some snobby little fanboy. I'm sure he sat there enjoying the Battle of the Bastards with a giant smile on his face like the rest of us.

Something is clearly keeping him from finishing his books.

Think about it.

If D and D aren't completely lying, which would be grounds for a lawsuit, he's told them the broad strokes.

And if the broad strokes are these, they're fairly predictable, which is something the first three books are not.

I mean, we can laugh about D and D's hack writing all day long, but their job will soon be over. They certainly haven't kept George from finishing his books.

It's the nature of writing that, as you get to your end-game, you will become more predictable. You need to earn your climax and readers see the broad strokes of what you're building to.

 

[Kozak]

The show is its' own thing and the quality of it doesn't add or subtract from the novels. I don't get the relationship you're describing here.

The show became its own thing because the books weren't going to be finished in time.

The dip in the quality of writing isn't a surprise. Its understandable. No GRRM books means D&D had to do the bulk of the writing.

Fuck no to all of this. He's entitled to sell it to HBO. He's written a shit ton of books and was in his late 60's, if he had the chance to make a ton of money and go on vacations with his wife he earned it.

How can you honestly say that? Selling out is one of the worst things an artist could do. It shows how little they cared for their art.

Suggesting GRRM would throw away one of his babies to HBO for a cash-in is pretty disrespectful... I'm under the impression that GRRM cares A LOT for his story. The books not being finished obviously wasn't the plan and I hate that we step around it.

He thought he'd be done by now but he isn't. He has taken too long to write them.

I'm not angry about it or hate him for it but it is what it is.

 

[Speevy]

One thing I do like about adapting the books is turning the more speechy dialogues and monologues into more natural conversations.

Characters in a television show should never just launch into something like the broken man speech.

However, there's a very large gap in between reading lines from a book and talking about sticking your fingers up someone's ass.

D and D should have hired some really experienced television writers after season 4. That would have solved all of this. Get the guys who wrote any of the best HBO shows. Rome, The Sopranos, Six Feet Under, Deadwood, whatever. Anyone but them.

 

[Black_Sun]

That was Pycelle. Varys advised Aerys against opening the city to the Lannisters.



Other authors don't often have to go through the likes of the Meereenese Knot. GRRM has more to do than just type.

No that was Varys. If Varys ultimately cared about the Targaryens and the peace of the realm then he wouldn't have informed on Rhaegar and his plan to usurp his father to Aerys.

Him advising Aerys not to open the gates to Tywin was because he ultimately wanted an evil, mad king to keep control until Aegon was old enough to take Westeros from him.

Varys' whole plan was to create an evil regime for his hero-king to take care of and have him he lauded the savior of Westeros.

Ultimately when Aerys went down to quickly he switched to making that evil king be Viserys and then when Viserys lost, he planned on using Joffrey and then Cerswi in general.

 

[Speevy]

On another note, is it implied that the Boltons killed virtually all of their own men with arrows or that the wildlings defeated most of the Bolton men themselves before the giant circle of death?

 

[Kieli]

are we past the books now|?

 

[higgsboson1997]

One thing I do like about adapting the books is turning the more speechy dialogues and monologues into more natural conversations.

Characters in a television show should never just launch into something like the broken man speech.

However, there's a very large gap in between reading lines from a book and talking about sticking your fingers up someone's ass.

D and D should have hired some really experienced television writers after season 4. That would have solved all of this. Get the guys who wrote any of the best HBO shows. Rome, The Sopranos, Six Feet Under, Deadwood, whatever. Anyone but them.

D&D have done a stellar job in my opinion. I wouldn't have picked any of those guys over them. All those shows had one sub-par season too.

 

[Black_Sun]

are we past the books now|?

Sort of. More like the show diverged heavily from the books. They're not that similar anymore.

The author seems to not like the show anymore.

 

[Fhtagn]

Yes because other authors take this long to write a series.

I have been waiting 23 years for the fifth War Against The Chtorr book, thank you very much.

 

[Speevy]

The author seems to not like the show anymore.

That's a bunch of speculative horseshit.

 

[Kozak]

On another note, is it implied that the Boltons killed virtually all of their own men with arrows or that the wildlings defeated most of the Bolton men themselves before the giant circle of death?

IIRC one of the men Jon was about fight got taken down by an arrow and his archers weren't firing anything.

Also, the spoilers implied it haha

Looking back on it, Jon and his army were doing quite well in terms of numbers

I imagine Ramsay killed a fuckload of his own men.

 

[Kain]

I have been waiting 23 years for the fifth War Against The Chtorr book, thank you very much.

I was stuck on a boat for what, 8 years? Then procrastination hit. AGAIN.

 

[Lothar]

are we past the books now|?

Have been since Season 5. We're still waiting to see who wins between Ramsay and Stannis.

We're still waiting for Tyrion to reach Dany. We've been waiting 16 years for that.

Jon hasn't been resurrected yet.

Oh yeah, and Sansa is still at the Vale!

 

[Black_Sun]

D&D have done a stellar job in my opinion. I wouldn't have picked any of those guys over them. All those shows had one sub-par season too.

I'd say they've done a really bad job because they got the spirit of GRRM'a books wrong.

They have a very teenage enjoyment of the books. The only things they really cared about was the shock and the horror.

Them wanting to do the show for the Red Wedding explains a lot because ultimately they stopped caring more and more after that.

Game of Thrones went from a show that wouldn't cheat to help its heroes to cheating to help the villains.

It jumps holes in logic to make things work.

People are no longer responding realistically to things. They act how the plot dictates they act.

People teleport from one episode to the next with no clear passage of time.

We get inane unfunny scenes like putting fingers up someone's asshole and Pod the Rod etc.

Character development is now jumping from point A to Point G rather than a gradual process.

Characters are stripped of layers from their book counterparts.

The world feels a little empty.

And many plots don't feel well thought out.

I mean the show does have positives too.

The acting is great. The visuals are great. The costumes are great. The cinematography is great. And every once in a while they do get the spirit of the books right.

But the show has ultimately become popcorn entertainment. Which saddens me because GRRM'a books are very intelligent and well thought out if a little bloated.

 

[Brakke]

On another note, is it implied that the Boltons killed virtually all of their own men with arrows or that the wildlings defeated most of the Bolton men themselves before the giant circle of death?

The first Bolton sortie was fucked either way. If Bolton had encircled the melee with that phalanx, he would've trapped all his dudes in the mess. I can't really see how the first Bolton group could've retreated as the phalanx was forming. Maybe they could've since Jon's army just kind of watched it happen anyway?