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[Moff]

I'm pretty pumped for the finale

Miguel Sapochnik said it will be as epic as episode 9, but in a different way
since I am not such a battle guy (although it looked awesome) I expect to like the finale a lot more. There is a lot of awesome stuff that could happen but the not knowing is what has me pumped, it's also probably the reason why I liked most of this season so much. it was really a different experience this year.

 

[Black_Sun]

I'm pretty pumped for the finale

Miguel Sapochnik said it will be as epic as episode 9, but in a different way
since I am not such a battle guy (although it looked awesome) I expect to like the finale a lot more. There is a lot of awesome stuff that could happen but the not knowing is what has me pumped, it's also probably the reason why I liked most of this season so much. it was really a different experience this year.

I wish I could be like this.

The assassination of Stannis' character killed all my optimism, man.

And my second favorite and third favorite characters, Jon and Euron, have been turned into dullards.

 

[Speevy]

There's plenty of Thrones criticism beyond this thread, especially for the last two seasons. Not to mention the fact that the show is not in many respected critics' top ten lists at the end of the year. It's a slight step above Walking Dead or True Blood.

I dislike people who judge the show based on minor or major book differences and think those people range from annoying to toxic (Linda). The show's problem is not that it's different from the books, it's that it is largely a poorly written and inconsistent show. The production values are amazing, some of the acting is good. That's about it.

I get that the complexities of the books cannot exist on an expensive television show. But that does not mean the only alternative is a show that throws any logic or previously established world building/rules out the window to make plots work. Like the constant teleporting of characters/armies across large areas, or a big army magically getting past Moat Cailin without Ramsay finding out. Or the multiple kinslaying cases that happened within a span of 2-3 episodes. Or the general lack of character development. This is a show that exists largely for major action or shock beats, while being as simple and generic as possible. Everything else is secondary.

The show is critically acclaimed though, by any reasonable metric by which shows are judged.

Hell, by the same way critics judged Breaking Bad, this show is a home run with critics. You may not agree with that, but it's true.

 

[Sheroking]

There's plenty of Thrones criticism beyond this thread, especially for the last two seasons. Not to mention the fact that the show is not in many respected critics' top ten lists at the end of the year. It's a slight step above Walking Dead or True Blood.

Neither True Blood nor The Walking Dead have ever been nominated for Best Drama, let alone for their weakest season. You can't look at any given episode of those series' and count the bad reviews on one hand. You can spend time on iMDB or Reddit and not find these levels of vitriol for the show that you do in book threads like this one.

Criticism exists, but there's no pervasive, general sentiment that the show has fallen off or is anything other than well above average among critics or fans outside of a vocal selection of book readers. Doesn't exist.

Even on this board. Read the other thread while the episodes are airing? WAYYYYY more positive.

 

[Moff]

I still think every season so far has mirrored the quality of the book(s) it's based on, which is why one of the best things about season 6 is that I am genuinely looking forward to TWOW now. I felt indifferent about since I read ADWD when it was released.

 

[bitbydeath]

Lady Stoneheart (it's not happening though)

What if the face Arya stole was Cats?
Arya Stoneheart!!!

 

[Speevy]

 

[Cromwell]

I still think every season so far has mirrored the quality of the book(s) it's based on, which is why one of the best things about season 6 is that I am genuinely looking forward to TWOW now. I felt indifferent about since I read ADWD when it was released.

Completely and utterly disagree. Season 1 was the only season that came anywhere close to evoking the books.

 

[Black_Sun]

I still think every season so far has mirrored the quality of the book(s) it's based on, which is why one of the best things about season 6 is that I am genuinely looking forward to TWOW now. I felt indifferent about since I read ADWD when it was released.

That seems strange since season 6 storylines seem mostly based on AFFC and ADWD mixed in with a few TWOW spoilers ( Hodor, the Boltons getting it, Daenerys getting the Dothraki and Arya vaguely leaving the FM). All the other stuff seems it's either spinning its wheels from last season (KL) or show created like scenes with the Hound

 

[Speevy]

That seems strange since season 6 storylines seem mostly based on AFFC and ADWD mixed in with a few TWOW spoilers ( Hodor, the Boltons getting it, Daenerys getting the Dothraki and Arya vaguely leaving the FM). All the other stuff seems it's either spinning its wheels from last season (KL) or show created like scenes with the Hound

I think they're doing probably the most major King's Landing thing that will ever happen in King's Landing in the books on Sunday.

 

[Black_Sun]

I think they're doing probably the most major King's Landing thing that will ever happen in King's Landing in the books on Sunday.

I think I know what you're talking about but I don't think this is how it's going to go down in the books. Although maybe the event will happen. (I'm still thinking Daenerys accidentally blows up KL while fighting Aegon)

TWOW Mercy chapter heavily implied that Cersei won her trial by combat.

 

[duckroll]

I still think every season so far has mirrored the quality of the book(s) it's based on, which is why one of the best things about season 6 is that I am genuinely looking forward to TWOW now. I felt indifferent about since I read ADWD when it was released.

I think Season 1-3 were much worse than the books. Season 4 was better in some ways, worse in others. Season 5 was just as bad as the last book. Season 6 is the best season yet, and far better than both of the previous books combined.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

Is the other thread that positive? A good deal of early reviews revolved around complaints about filler, or certain episodes simply being bad (ep 7 comes to mind). And I've seen multiple posters acknowledge the last two seasons are weaker than previous ones.

 

[nampad]

Yeah so weak only a fucking giant was able to punch through it. The things you people complain about, ffs..

That gate looked super weak for something like Winterfell and there would be no need for a giant, a meager ram would have easily done the job. Meanwhile, Ramsay talks about how they would successfully gone through a siege.

Heck, the gates of the castle in my hometown looked way more impressive and that was just the seat of a lower lord.

 

[Moff]

I think Season 1-3 were much worse than the books. Season 4 was better in some ways, worse in others. Season 5 was just as bad as the last book. Season 6 is the best season yet, and far better than both of the previous books combined.

but doesn't that make you more excited for TWOW!

I loved season 1, I wish it had more budget and was 2 seasons. but that was of course impossible.
1, 4 and 6 are my favourites.

 

[Cromwell]

Season 5 was just as bad as the last book.

Fucking what? Theon's POV? Stannis' entire character? How do you put that on the same level as the show?

 

[Moff]

Fucking what? Theon's POV? Stannis' entire character? How do you put that on the same level as the show?

it was an incredible drag to read, I will never re-read it. AFFC was even worse though.

 

[Black_Sun]

it was an incredible drag to read, I will never re-read it. AFFC was even worse though.

Well there's your problem. Both these books are much better on a re-read since you understand where GRRM is laying the tracks and what he's doing with this.

I'd suggest the Boiled Leather combination. It makes it flow better.

 

[Cromwell]

it was an incredible drag to read, I will never re-read it. AFFC was even worse though.

Theon in DwD was the best POV GRRM has ever written.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I like both the books and the show equally. One offers an imaginative ride that is very verbose, the other offers a visual journey that captures the books quite well.

I am looking forward to both finishing the book series and the television series. If I had to choose a favorite, it'd probably be the show because no reading required.

 

[bitbydeath]

I feel I'm in the minority for really liking ADWD.
Book 4 was awful though, no arguments there.

 

[Black_Sun]

I think Season 1-3 were much worse than the books. Season 4 was better in some ways, worse in others. Season 5 was just as bad as the last book. Season 6 is the best season yet, and far better than both of the previous books combined.

Really? The Northern storyline in ADWD is far better than anything the show shat out.

In the show, the North Forgot.

 

[Moff]

Theon in DwD was the best POV GRRM has ever written.

I just wish it was in a good book

 

[bitbydeath]

Really? The Northern storyline in ADWD is far better than anything the show shat out.

In the show, the North Forgot.

Or maybe they remembered how the actions of Rob badly impacted everything?

 

[Black_Sun]

I feel I'm in the minority for really liking ADWD.
Book 4 was awful though, no arguments there.

Honestly I'd even go so far to say that ADWD would be even better than ASOS if GRRM had included the Battle of Ice and the Battle of Fire.

 

[Speevy]

Unless they do something Dornish with the Yara/Theon plot, Alfie Allen has already elevated Theon so far above and beyond the source material that George has to be proud of him.

Even Linda has called Theon a faithful adaptation, and that's all thanks to the actor, not the writers.

 

[Cromwell]

I feel I'm in the minority for really liking ADWD.
Book 4 was awful though, no arguments there.

I love them all. Book 4 my least favorite, but they're all great in their own ways. People who endlessly bitch about 4 and 5 being awful books or whatever, I'm convinced they don't actually like reading. They're rich with amazing characters, dialogue, and world building. They lack resolution but once TWoW is out that won't be such a huge issue.

 

[bitbydeath]

Honestly I'd even go so far to say that ADWD would be even better than ASOS if GRRM had included the Battle of Ice and the Battle of Fire.

I think the bad decision was splitting the character arcs up into two books.

Could have been quite a different read without that.

 

[casiopao]

Reading you guys comment makes me remember when Togashi is sitting at home relaxing with his wife while slaking on Hiatus x Hiatus. ^_^

So, this is the pain huh?^_^

 

[Moff]

I'm convinced they don't actually like reading.

uhuh, sure, bud.
if you think AFFC/ADWD are even remotely close to AGOT or ASOS you are out of your mind, that's what I am convinced of

 

[Black_Sun]

Or maybe they remembered how the actions of Rob badly impacted everything?

This doesn't make any sense though. I understand why they'd be reluctant to support a Stark but there is no smart reason why they'd be okay with letting Ramsay remain in power.

At the very least they'd start a movement to replace Ramsay with someone other than a Stark.

The Boltons and Freys are behind the Red Wedding. You could put in an argument that Robb helped put the North in that positions but the Boltons and Freys directly killed their relatives.

This is what I mean when I say the show has to cheat for its villains. The North should've revolted against Ramsay by now.

Instead, D & D introduce a father-hating man named Smalljon who would've killed his own father if he could and drops Rickon in his lap and Karstark is cool with Ramsay killing his own dad in front of him. You'd might reconsider backing a guy like this.

And then has every other Northerner stay out of the fighting.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

Or maybe they remembered how the actions of Rob badly impacted everything?

I doubt loyal northern houses would blame Robb more than those who broke the laws of gods and men and killed their king. But then again the laws of gods and men don't matter in the show world so maybe you're right.

 

[Paganmoon]

it was an incredible drag to read, I will never re-read it. AFFC was even worse though.

Agreed

Theon in DwD was the best POV GRRM has ever written.

It's in a 1000+ page book... one PoV character does not make the book good.

Aegon is an extension of Varys storyline. He's been set up since AGOT.

And Aegon doesn't work unless he come in the middle of the story. He's the parallel to Euron in that way. As PQ puts it Euron and Aegon are the hijacking villain and the hijacking hero.

Daenerys and the Others came too late and as a result Aegon and Euron are threatening to hijack their roles in the story as the main hero and villain.

Daenerys won't take down the Lannisters because Aegon will and if she tries to take him down she'll be known as the kin-slaying mad queen that brought dragons, evil councillors like the Imp and Jorah the slaver, a horde of sellswords, ironborn, Dothraki and unsullied to take down the savior of Westeros.

Sure, his appearance can be explained, but I see it as handwaveing, and still makes for really poor storytelling imo. Everything else you've followed comes to a screeching halt for 2 books and you suddenly follow a few new major players? Good writing some say, well it makes for very bad storytelling still.

 

[Speevy]

And then has every other Northerner stay out of the fighting.

They're afraid of him. They killed Lord Cerwyn.

I think D and D wanted to create a story where the north was so broken by the events surrounding the Red Wedding that they couldn't muster the morale to mount a rebellion.

The worst northern house has all the power. The crown is against them. Most of their men are dead.

D and D just decided it wasn't worth the trouble to tell the northern conspiracy story with all that going on.

 

[Speevy]

I do find it hilarious that all the sons of the people who were allied with Robb are assholes.

It's like Roose Bolton sired a whole race of evil northerners when he stabbed Robb.

 

[Black_Sun]

uhuh, sure, bud.
if you think AFFC/ADWD are even remotely close to AGOT or ASOS you are out of your mind, that's what I am convinced of

ACOK isn't actually that good. AFFC and ADWD are better.

It only looks really good because it sets up ASOS and you didn't have to wait after it finished for 5-6 years before the next book came out

Most of ACOK was pretty slow and consisted of set up. The Battle of Blackwater makes it look much better than it really was because you know what GRRM was building up to too.

If GRRM had left in the Battles of Ice and Fire, we'd all have a much better opinion of ADWD but the book seriously blue balled us.

 

[Moff]

ACOK isn't actually that good. AFFC and ADWD are better.

It only looks really good because it sets up ASOS and you didn't have to wait after it finished for 5-6 years before the next book came out

Most of ACOK was pretty slow and consisted of set up. The Battle of Blaxkwater makes it look much better than it really was because you know what GRRM was building up to too.

If GRRM had left in the Battles of Ice and Fire, we'd all have a much better opinion of ADWD but the book seriously blue balled us.

which is why I only mentioned AGOT and ASOS? ;p
I'd still say ACOK was better than AFFC/ADWD, it wasn't great but at least not such a bore

 

[Black_Sun]

Agreed



It's in a 1000+ page book... one PoV character does not make the book good.





Sure, his appearance can be explained, but I see it as handwaveing, and still makes for really poor storytelling imo. Everything else you've followed comes to a screeching halt for 2 books and you suddenly follow a few new major players? Good writing some say, well it makes for very bad storytelling still.

The whole Northern storyline is really good.

That includes the prologue, Reek, Jon Snow, Melisandre, Davos and Asha which comes up to being half the book. And there are some great unrelated chapters like Cersei's Walk of Shame, the Epilogue chapter, Jaime's chapter, the one Arianne chapter and all of JonCon's chapters

The worst parts are the Meereenese parts but even then there's really great chapters in there like Barristan's, Dany's last two chapters, Tyrion's chapters until he becomes a slave but it gets good again after he's free and some of Quentyn's chapters (unpopular opinion).

Anyways I don't think it's poor storytelling. I think it's just a direction you don't like.

Personally I think Aegon and Euron were the best things GRRM did with his series. I find the Lannisters pretty stale.

 

[Purple Cheeto]

The only person to blame for the show being what it is is George. If he had bothered to actually think his story through instead of just coming up with cool ideas and hoping he could write them to actual conclusions we wouldn't be having these problems.

I think some of the show's structural issues came from them trying to drag out plotlines that they knew weren't that long so that they could keep actors around and possibly to let George finish the book. Instead he wrote 100k words about two mediocre NFL teams, his movie theater, and the SciFi/Fantasy equivalent of GamerGate.

The show isn't perfect, and it fails in a lot of ways, but its the only conclusion we are gonna get. And for some people after 20 years its nice to finally see the story move forward in a more fleshed out manner than the 5 paragraph summary George will end up posting to his Live Journal in 2020.

 

[Black_Sun]

They're afraid of him. They killed Lord Cerwyn.

I think D and D wanted to create a story where the north was so broken by the events surrounding the Red Wedding that they couldn't muster the morale to mount a rebellion.

The worst northern house has all the power. The crown is against them. Most of their men are dead.

D and D just decided it wasn't worth the trouble to tell the northern conspiracy story with all that going on.

There's a line between fear and hatred. Ramsay should be hated and not feared.

Also this sets up a hole in the show's logic.

If the Northerners don't care about the Stark name anymore then why the hell did Roose marry Ramsay to Sansa even if that meant a war with the Lannisters

Roose even says that if the Stark boys are found, the North will revolt against them.

The show then changed tracks and said no wait the Starks don't matter anymore.

The show tried to have its cake and eat it.

 

[Henkka]

I think Season 1-3 were much worse than the books. Season 4 was better in some ways, worse in others. Season 5 was just as bad as the last book. Season 6 is the best season yet, and far better than both of the previous books combined.

Depends what you mean by "better". Is it more fun as popcorn entertainment? Sure.

Is it better at internal consistency? No. Do the characters act in more believable ways? No. Does it do a better job tackling serious themes? No.

The show is fun to watch, but the writing is shit. In a book, you can't just do a montage of people stealing a hundred ships while the bad guy looks the other way. Maybe the pace in the books is slow, but at least things make sense.

 

[Black_Sun]

Depends what you mean by "better". Is it more fun as popcorn entertainment? Sure.

Is it better at internal consistency? No. Do the characters act in more believable ways? No. Does it do a better job tackling serious themes? No.

The show is fun to watch, but the writing is shit. In a book, you can't just do a montage of people stealing a hundred ships while the bad guy looks the other way. Maybe the pace in the books is slow, but at least things make sense.

Yeah this is basically how I mean when I say that the books are objectively better written than the show is.

The books actually make sense and things logically follow more than 90 % of the time.

In comparison, the show has no internal real internal and things only happen because the plot wants to make it happen.

Just see how forced Sansa acted in this episode. The plot needed her not to tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale so Jon could be the underdog and to make it more surprising

 

[Black_Sun]

Unless they do something Dornish with the Yara/Theon plot, Alfie Allen has already elevated Theon so far above and beyond the source material that George has to be proud of him.

Even Linda has called Theon a faithful adaptation, and that's all thanks to the actor, not the writers.

I really disagree with this.

Allie Allen is a great actor and he's probably one of the best-written characters in the show.

But Theon became a minor character in his own storyline in season 5.

And you can't see what Theon is thinking.

Two of the more powerful moments in the books isn't even in the show :

That is Theon praying before the weirdwood tree

And Theon and Asha meeting up again. That almost made me cry

 

[duckroll]

but doesn't that make you more excited for TWOW!

Nope. Not excited for books that are never coming. It's like getting hyped for Duke Nukem Forever!

Fucking what? Theon's POV? Stannis' entire character? How do you put that on the same level as the show?

Really? The Northern storyline in ADWD is far better than anything the show shat out.

In the show, the North Forgot.

Stannis had an amazing scene with Shireen in Season 5. Right up there if not better than his scenes in the books. Knocked it right out of the part. Them completely assassinating his character right after that to have an edgy child burning shock scene is unfortunate. But we also got Adventures of Tyrion and Varys, which is a huge improvement over most of his terrible arc in the recent books. The Grand Northern Conspiracy is certainly missed, but at the same time we got 20 Good Men, Teleporting Dogs, and Ramsay's Harley Quinn. We win some, we lose some. What the show lacks in subtlety it makes up for in pulp entertainment.

*Wall Scythe Gif*

Depends what you mean by "better". Is it more fun as popcorn entertainment? Sure.

Is it better at internal consistency? No. Do the characters act in more believable ways? No. Does it do a better job tackling serious themes? No.

The show is fun to watch, but the writing is shit. In a book, you can't just do a montage of people stealing a hundred ships while the bad guy looks the other way. Maybe the pace in the books is slow, but at least things make sense.

Who cares about the writing? Certainly not me. If I did I would have stopped watched after Season 2. It was always clear that this was a much more pulpy and direct take on the same story. Different tone, different direction. Doesn't mean it's worse, just easier to consume. When I sit back and watch a new episode of Game of Thrones, I don't ask myself "is this deep and meaningful art", I open a bag of chips or doritos, slip a cold glass of coke, and hope that it's an hour of badass fantasy action with funny dick jokes. Tits and dragons are a plus. The show embracing what it is good at and what it has always wanted to be makes it better than ever. No point trying to be what it's not. Bring on the bad pussies and the big cocks.

 

[wesleyshark]

D&D have done a stellar job in my opinion. I wouldn't have picked any of those guys over them. All those shows had one sub-par season too.

D&D are doing a great job. No showrunner is perfect, and yeah there's been a weak episode here and there but compared to other TV shows that have whole seasons that are just the worst... I'm quite content with what D&D have done so far, in total. I wouldn't want anyone else doing it, honestly.

I've been having a blast with it. My roommate, who hasn't read any of the books or knows anything about them at all, loves it also. Seeing his perspective on things, coming from zero knowledge whatsoever, makes me appreciate D&D's vision even more, because they've somehow been able to condense such expansive writing and a plethora of characters into something that works on TV.

 

[Branduil]

GRRM should have gone with his original timeskip idea. Instead we have two bloated books over the last 15 years featuring a bunch of shit we don't care about.

 

[Henkka]

Who cares about the writing? Certainly not me. If I did I would have stopped watched after Season 2. It was always clear that this was a much more pulpy and direct take on the same story. Different tone, different direction. Doesn't mean it's worse, just easier to consume. When I sit back and watch a new episode of Game of Thrones, I don't ask myself "is this deep and meaningful art", I open a bag of chips or doritos, slip a cold glass of coke, and hope that it's an hour of badass fantasy action with funny dick jokes. Tits and dragons are a plus. The show embracing what it is good at and what it has always wanted to be makes it better than ever. No point trying to be what it's not. Bring on the bad pussies and the big cocks.

Well, okay, sure.

GRRM should have gone with his original timeskip idea. Instead we have two bloated books over the last 15 years featuring a bunch of shit we don't care about.

Maybe, yeah. But I think GRRM said he found he had to lean on flashbacks and stuff constantly to tell what happened in the past 5 years, so he scrapped it.

 

[wesleyshark]

GRRM should have gone with his original timeskip idea. Instead we have two bloated books over the last 15 years featuring a bunch of shit we don't care about.

I'm glad he didn't do that. It would have been jarring and sidelined the flow of the story.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

GRRM should have gone with his original timeskip idea. Instead we have two bloated books over the last 15 years featuring a bunch of shit we don't care about.

GRRM should have stuck with his original 3-book plan. All the world-building, while fun, kept him from actually finishing the damn story. If he really wanted to flesh out every last city, race, and culture in his world he should've saved it for another trilogy or something.

 

[SoRuffShoNuff]

I'm glad he didn't do that. It would have been jarring and sidelined the flow of the story.

The story as is isn't flowing at all. It's like a beaver built a dam on the river.