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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6

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As a performance he was really well done, I just think they gave him too much to do. At some point he just started to bore be because I knew that whatever he was doing it was going to be E.V.I.L.

I wasn't excited when he died because he was finally get what he deserved, just that he was finally not going to be around anymore.
That could be it too. There really wasn't even the pretense of there being any complexity to his character at all, you just know whatever he does it's going to be the most over the top evil thing he can do and whatever it is it will turn out exactly as he planned. It was mostly as interesting as watching a cat play with injured mice.

The reason why Tywin and Joffrey worked so well is because for both characters there was a purpose behind their evildoing, even if in Joffrey's case it was more about mental illness. I honestly don't have the slightest clue why Ramsay was so unrelentlessly evil other than it played well on screen. I mean honestly at some point it would have become tiring to be that shitty every waking moment.
 

Black_Sun

Member
It's a television show. There is no "realistically". Things happen as they are written. If you can't suspend that belief, why bother watching it at all? Realistically, maybe Jon wouldn't have gotten the support of the Wildlings like he did. Realistically, Littlefinger can't move around as quickly as he does. Realistically, Arya should be dead from infection. Realistically, Winters don't last decades and there are no dragons.



I'm not sure what you're even arguing here. He employed some poor tactics in the battle because he thought he had the numbers advantage and was just fucking with them. Yes, they were dumb moves, and guess what, he lost the battle. So.... what are we even talking about? It doesn't mean he doesn't have intellect. Even smart people do dumb stuff when they're overconfident.



His wife was killed in the Red Wedding. Isn't the new cupbearer one of his daughters? She looks even younger than the wife he had at the Red Wedding. He didn't seem to have any issues with slapping her behind in the last scene we saw him in...



?????????????

How has he been punished? What relatives did he lose post Red Wedding? I mean he's a villain so we expect he'll be punished eventually, but it's been 3 seasons of happy times for him so far. His biggest concern of late was people laughing at him for losing Riverrun, and now he has it back. His total fuckup sons (?) didn't even die in the attempt because the Great Jaime Lannister arrived and saved the day. The Great Jaime Lannister who fucks his sister, pushes children out of windows, and is guilty of the crime of being unreasonable good looking in a suit of Lannister armor.

When I say realistically I'm talking about people behaving like people and there actually being consequences for good actions and bad actions but in a way that makes sense.

And yes, I'm still still hung up on Arya not being dead. My dad's show only and even he thought that was stupid.

There are even longer winters that happen in the real world. They're called Ice Ages.

But anyways that's due to magic and that's okay. Just because there's magic in the world that shouldn't give license for an idiot plot.


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Ramsay didn't lose the battle because of his dumb tactics though. He lost because Littlefinger got there with the Vale Knights.


Except Ramsay does a lot of dumb stuff that the show lets him get away. That's my point.

Yara shows up with a company of the 50 best killers from the Iron Islands. Time to fight the ironborn shirtless with a dagger and win.

Beat and rape Sansa. The North Forgot.

Flay the Cerwyns. No one in the North cares. And somehow Littleinger doesn't hear about it despite passing through there to get to Winterfell.

Stannis shows up with an army of sellswords. Gather a crack squad of 20 good men, navigate the camp in zero light conditions in the middle of a blizzard and burn the siege equipment, hundreds of the horses, all the food and a dozen camps with the oil that 20 men couldn't possibly carry without anyone being caught.

My dad got a new son. Smalljon shows up and knows I killed my father. He gives me Rickon Stark as a reward for killing that cunt and tells me that he would've killed his own father if he could. Bonding time?

Feed Fat Walda to my dogs in the loudest way possible and experience no repurcussions for it.

Etc.
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Anyways that's not Walder's daugher. That's Walder's new wife.

Well that's why I said I'm bothered that there's no LS on the show since he's doing so good in the show.

Jaime lost a hand and two of his children already and his actions caused him to lose a father. He's being punished.
 

GorillaJu

Member
I think the books, even the later ones, do a better job of establishing motifs or themes that resonant. Part of the reason they're not as strong, thematically, in later books is because they are literally split up/cut apart.

It's also easier to manage multiple themes, per storyline, in novel simply because you have a lot more time. It often seems like, when D&D are deciding the next season's storyline, it's "Ok, so what's Tyrion doing? What about Dany? And let's not forget about Sam, what's he up to? Alright, everyone's got something to kinda do, good--let's do this" rather than introducing any unified idea.

Yeah that's a fair point, but I just see it as standard fare for TV and film to attempt to keep the narrative cohesive, juggling multiple balls at a steady pace, without dropping anything too important. Novels are by nature more unshackled so as you said there's more time, but it risks meandering (and boy does GRRM like to meander).

I respect the novels as literature about as much as I respect the TV show as artistic media, which is to say that the first few of them are juicy entertainment but neither are relevant artistic works, while the third quarter was a miserable slog and the final bit seems to be returning to form.
 

Zabka

Member
I will agree that he fits in the show universe, but that is only because of the ridiculousness of what has been shown before. Rickon's death was mustache twirling and even if it fits with what is happening in the show universe, it is still bad.
Are you saying that Show Ramsay is a more ridiculous character than he is in the books? Book Ramsay looks like a damn vampire on top of being far more brutal to everyone he comes across.
 

Black_Sun

Member
Yeah that's a fair point, but I just see it as standard fare for TV and film to attempt to keep the narrative cohesive, juggling multiple balls at a steady pace, without dropping anything too important. Novels are by nature more unshackled so as you said there's more time, but it risks meandering (and boy does GRRM like to meander).

I respect the novels as literature about as much as I respect the TV show as artistic media, which is to say that the first few of them are juicy entertainment but neither are relevant artistic works, while the third quarter was a miserable slog and the final bit seems to be returning to form.

The thing is that D & D don't really care about themes. They only care about plot points and hitting them so they're completely okay with smashing a square peg into a circle as long as they get them to where they want.

I don't think that's what GRRM cares about as much which is why his books do meander a bit. He wants to explore the themes that he's interested in. Like Quentyn is almost an unnecessary POV but you can tell that GRRM wanted to write a deconstruction of adventure. His first chapter even begins with the line "Adventure(the ship) stank" and his last chapter ends with him being burned to death realizing that he's not the hero as so many other people do in this story.

The books are big on themes of identity(Jon, Arya, Sansa, Theon, Jaime), the glory of war, the misery of war and showcasing both in equal measure, the struggles of what it means to be a true knight(Jaime and Brienne), the true realities of adventure(Quentyn), redemption, the human heart in conflict with itself(which is the biggest theme of the books) and the consequences that a patriarchal society has on the men and women.
 

Black_Sun

Member
Are you saying that Show Ramsay is a more ridiculous character than he is in the books? Book Ramsay looks like a damn vampire on top of being far more brutal to everyone he comes across.

Roose is the one that looks like a vampire. Ramsay's kinda too fat and ugly to look like a traditional vampire.

And actually yes. Book Ramsay is a monster that Roose is holding on a leash. The North would turn on him if he ever offed Roose. Even Roose finds it amusing that Ramsay thinks he could someday hold the North.

Ramsay's stupid evil tendencies hurt his cause. As Lady Dustin says to Theon, "Arya"'s cries hurts the Bolton cause more than Stannis does
 

Big-E

Member
Are you saying that Show Ramsay is a more ridiculous character than he is in the books? Book Ramsay looks like a damn vampire on top of being far more brutal to everyone he comes across.

Killing the person with the strongest claim to your rule is not mustache twirling or against character. Killing him by having him run away and shoot arrows at him is stupid. He misses then he delivers an important person right to his enemies. But no, he kills him with a perfect shot just before reaching Jon. It is a stupid plan that works only because Ramsay does no wrong in the show.
 

Bigby

Member
g0uCvYk.png

http://beautifuldeath.com/post/146414027173
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
Killing the person with the strongest claim to your rule is not mustache twirling or against character. Killing him by having him run away and shoot arrows at him is stupid. He misses then he delivers an important person right to his enemies. But no, he kills him with a perfect shot just before reaching Jon. It is a stupid plan that works only because Ramsay does no wrong in the show.

Why? He provokes the lead of the army to blindly rushing in, losing the defensive advantage they created. While at the same time getting rid of the sole male hier with contention.

Nothing about it was stupid, outside of course the hollywood "The last shot is dead on"

I'm excited. in 2 years, I will know how it ends. No more books for me!
 

Big-E

Member
Why? He provokes the lead of the army to blindly rushing in, losing the defensive advantage they created. While at the same time getting rid of the sole male hier with contention.

Nothing about it was stupid, outside of course the hollywood "The last shot is dead on"

I'm excited. in 2 years, I will know how it ends. No more books for me!

That's right it is stupid and it is bad tv.
 

Black_Sun

Member
Just to summarize:

Book Ramsay- Stupid Evil Monster that the North hates and wants to turn on. He's only in charge because Roose allows him to be.

Show Ramsay- Stupid Evil Monster with master archer skills, good-looking, ninja, has a harem of women, a girlfriend that loves him, outwits his own father, beats one of Westeros' best generals on the field, giant slayer, rapes Sansa, can tangle with the 50 best killers on the iron islands shirtless holding only a dagger, the North is more loyal to him than the Starks and D & D think he's a badass.
 

Burt

Member
Why? He provokes the lead of the army to blindly rushing in, losing the defensive advantage they created. While at the same time getting rid of the sole male hier with contention.

Nothing about it was stupid, outside of course the hollywood "The last shot is dead on"

I'm excited. in 2 years, I will know how it ends. No more books for me!

I mean, that's exactly what he's talking about. Blind firing with a smile, then hitting a running target a couple hundred yards away straight through the heart. Forget if he missed, if he hit him in the leg, or even the gut, things could've gone the other way.

Could've just strung him up on a post and started flaying him right there for the same result with none of the Super Ramsay effect.
 

Randdalf

Member
Rickon's death, and Osha's really feels like the show's writers didn't really know what to do with the characters. Killing them was just a convenient way of wrapping a bow on that sub-plot, which didn't really matter to the show very much.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
Ramsay would have been a great character if he was used sparingly -- the looming evil hovering in the background, bodies turning up mutilated, whispers of a sadistic bastard. But they killed that mystique by using him too much.
 

Big-E

Member
Ramsay would have been a great character if he was used sparingly -- the looming evil hovering in the background, bodies turning up mutilated, whispers of a sadistic bastard. But they killed that mystique by using him too much.

I would agree with that. Liked his portrayal in the beginning.
 

hoos30

Member
Rickon's death, and Osha's really feels like the show's writers didn't really know what to do with the characters. Killing them was just a convenient way of wrapping a bow on that sub-plot, which didn't really matter to the show very much.

Rickon's death could not have served both Jon and Ramsey's character development any better. You can read so much about each from their reactions to that "game".

It was just the end of the line for Osha.
 

Tuck

Member
It's a television show. There is no "realistically". Things happen as they are written. If you can't suspend that belief, why bother watching it at all? Realistically, maybe Jon wouldn't have gotten the support of the Wildlings like he did. Realistically, Littlefinger can't move around as quickly as he does. Realistically, Arya should be dead from infection. Realistically, Winters don't last decades and there are no dragons.
..Eh?

Just because its fiction doesn't mean it can't be realistic. Of course you need to suspend your disbelief, but theres a limit to that, and well written fiction will only ask that you suspend your disbelief to a certain point. All of the things you listed are problems with the writing. Saying "its a tv show" is a weak defense. Things happen as they are written, yes. And how they are written changes how realistic those things are.

I'm not sure what you're even arguing here. He employed some poor tactics in the battle because he thought he had the numbers advantage and was just fucking with them. Yes, they were dumb moves, and guess what, he lost the battle. So.... what are we even talking about? It doesn't mean he doesn't have intellect. Even smart people do dumb stuff when they're overconfident.

I don't really agree with his comment, but I can't say I support yours either (in bold). Ramsay lost because the Vale Knights came in at the end. Ramsay would have won had they not. He's taking issue specifically with that - Ramsay was winning even though he was using stupid tactics (like shoot as his own men).

Ultimately though, he had more men, which is why him being stupid/over confident and still winning (prior the the Vale knight's arrival) doesn't sit ill with me.
 
I'm starting to think that Sansa really is the replacement of LSH if he goes for some crazy revenge mode against Freys now that she got the first taste with Ramsay. Maybe there will be a divide between Jon wanting to focus on the north/walkers and Sansa+LF who want to focus on the south and the political game.
 

Black_Sun

Member

Yeah that's kind of what I mean when I say that this is just a phase for Jon which is what I don't like.

Jon's resurrection should have lasting consequences.

So he's more scared now and then he gets over it. Big whoop.

GRRM:


“My characters who come back from death are worse for wear. In some ways, they're not even the same characters anymore. The body may be moving, but some aspect of the spirit is changed or transformed, and they've lost something,” Martin said.

"Lady Stoneheart is not Cateyln. I’ve tried to set it up beforehand with Beric Dondarrion and his repeated [resurrections]. There’s a brief appearance by Beric in Book One and he rides into the city and he’s this flamboyant Southern knight. That’s not that man we meet later on.”
 
Are you saying that Show Ramsay is a more ridiculous character than he is in the books? Book Ramsay looks like a damn vampire on top of being far more brutal to everyone he comes across.
No he doesn't?

He's fat with big lips.

The main problem with the whole Ramsay/Roose thong is that the show writers have been completely unable to write a character who shows an ounce of intelligence since they no longer had the books to prop them up. Even Tyrion sounds like a teenager after a couple of politics classes these days.

In the case of Ramsay, the show needed him to outwit his father, man who understands his son all too well and is absolutely aware he would kill him without hesitation if pushed to it. So how exactly did the show accomplish it? They simply made Roose a complete fucking moron who constantly goaded Ramsay into doing what Ramsay does. It came acosss as suicidal FFS.
 

Geist-

Member
I actually like the concept of show Ramsay a lot but the execution was butchered. I can't say for sure whether or not it was bad writing or bad acting but he just came across as way too cartoonish a villain for my tastes.

He actually got really boring towards the end because it became so predictable what wild and crazy thing he was going to do next.
I'm totally okay with purely evil villains, there are purely evil people in the world. It's when he's perfect in every way that annoys the hell out of me. In the books he's scared of his dad, which was a subtle way of telling readers in the books that maybe he got his psychotic streak from his Dad and he's the real monster. In the show, he's perfect in every way, a master in all weapons, and a tactician/strategist of the top tier. Also not scared of anything, including his dad, and somehow has complete loyalty from his soldiers and northern allies despite being just as likely to flay them alive.

It was super lazy writing.

Are you saying that Show Ramsay is a more ridiculous character than he is in the books? Book Ramsay looks like a damn vampire on top of being far more brutal to everyone he comes across.
I think you're thinking of Roose Bolton.
 
Show Ramsey = Book Euron


It's as simple as that, really.

Except not at all that simple. They are wildly different characters, in spite of the things that you can parallel between them (sadism, egotism, etc). Ramsay and Euron have completely different goals, and what drives them and what empowers them are also varying in many ways.
 

Zabka

Member
Roose is the one that looks like a vampire. Ramsay's kinda too fat and ugly to look like a traditional vampire.

And actually yes. Book Ramsay is a monster that Roose is holding on a leash. The North would turn on him if he ever offed Roose. Even Roose finds it amusing that Ramsay thinks he could someday hold the North.

Ramsay's stupid evil tendencies hurt his cause. As Lady Dustin says to Theon, "Arya"'s cries hurts the Bolton cause more than Stannis does

That's not really a difference in the character. It's a difference in his infamy. And you say "The North" as if it's a solid block of like-minded people. Ramsay's actions don't prevent the Karstarks from conspiring with the Boltons to double-cross Stannis in the books.

Also not scared of anything, including his dad, and somehow has complete loyalty from his soldiers and northern allies despite being just as likely to flay them alive
Ramsay was terrified of his father replacing him. That's why he betrays him.
 
#NotAllRamsays

Yeah that's a fair point, but I just see it as standard fare for TV and film to attempt to keep the narrative cohesive, juggling multiple balls at a steady pace, without dropping anything too important. Novels are by nature more unshackled so as you said there's more time, but it risks meandering (and boy does GRRM like to meander).

I respect the novels as literature about as much as I respect the TV show as artistic media, which is to say that the first few of them are juicy entertainment but neither are relevant artistic works, while the third quarter was a miserable slog and the final bit seems to be returning to form.

Despite all this (I largely agree with you), I don't think it's a case of D&D being tasked with the impossible. Hindsight and all that, but I just feel like they made a lot of the wrong "cut this, add that" decisions and lost sight of any big picture there could have been.


This is a cool interpretation but reads more like a novelization of the season rather than anything explored in the season itself. Jon's arc really focusing on death, what it means to him, whether or not he even wants to be alive, ending with his affirmation, would have been great. I don't feel we got that though--it was more lipservice to those ideas, if anything.
 

Black_Sun

Member
Show Ramsey = Book Euron


It's as simple as that, really.

Well no even then that's not true.

Euron is Bran and Dany's foil. Show Ramsay is Jon's.

Like the only thing that Show Ramsay and Show Euron have in common are that they're sadistic and evil but Show Ramsay is Stupid Evil. Euron isn't.

And Euron's ambitions are completely different to Show Ramsay's which are pretty mundane. Like Euron wants to conquer the world and become a god-like being, kill the gods,become a dragon rider, sit the Iron Throne and marry Daenerys.

He's also possibly serving a higher power.

Euron is the Saruman of ASOIAF:

"Structurally, like Saruman, Euron is the human(oid) villain that comes out of nowhere in an attempt to copy/preempt the inhuman villain gathering its Forces of Evil in a specific cardinal direction. (Indeed, just as Saruman prevents Rohan from coming to Gondor’s aid against Mordor until the very last second, so will Euron keep much of the South from addressing the Others until it’s almost too late.)

Thematically, like Saruman, Euron was raised as a champion of the good gods (Valar/Bloodraven) before losing himself in his lust for power. Both have naught but contempt for the orders and codes to which they used to belong (Istari/Ironborn), considering themselves elevated above all other beings by their marination in dangerous magic. Both are terrifying and yet somehow pathetic, their defining ability to charm and corrupt pointedly failing them at times (Euron against Rodrik at the Shields, Saruman against Theoden at Isengard). Above all, both serve as a reminder that the coming of darkness is not greeted with dread by all; some delight in these moments of apocalypse, seeing them as nothing but a vacuum to fill, or a wave to ride. And horribly enough, such people are not fringe lunatics: Saruman and Euron are in positions of great power, able to hijack the Good-Evil battles around them for their own twisted ambitions. "

------

"So where you see Barad-dur in the Hightower, I see Orthanc; the glass candles are Euron’s palantir, the Ironborn his Dunlendings, the Deep Ones his Uruk-hai, the Reach his Rohan…and the Others, ultimately, are the analogue to the true-antagonist-returned-from-dormancy Sauron, just rooted in a different cardinal direction."
 

Black_Sun

Member
That's not really a difference in the character. It's a difference in his infamy. And you say "The North" as if it's a solid block of like-minded people. Ramsay's actions don't prevent the Karstarks from conspiring with the Boltons to double-cross Stannis in the books.


Ramsay was terrified of his father replacing him. That's why he betrays him.

The Karstarks are actually in a split camp.

The Karstarks that conspire with Roose are castellans of Karhold not the true rulers and they want to be paid for their efforts. They don't give a damn that Robb killed Rickard. They just want to become lords of Karhold first. They can worry about Ramsay after that.

And Alys Karstark, the heir to Karhold is actually on team Jon/ Stannis.

As the northerners say "a man can deal with Roose but his son seems a monster in human skin"

And the only reason half the North is fighting for Roose is because the Freys are holding their relatives captive

The Ramsay in the books shows what being stupid evil does

If Ramsay was an actual nice guy, it's unlikely that Stannis would've gotten so many people from the North to fight for him
 
I know why the show says he betrays him. It just absolutely did not feel right in regards to how their relationship was portrayed before.

I'm on the camp where it felt like they did it right. Ramsay is shown even after his fathers death that he respects him when Umber is giving him shit. The only reason Ramsay kills Roose is because he knows Roose will probably dispose of him (with good reason) if he lets him walk out of the room.

Ramsay had no choise.
 
Well no even then that's not true.

Euron is Bran and Dany's foil. Show Ramsay is Jon's.

Like the only thing that Show Ramsay and Show Euron have in common are that they're sadistic and evil but Show Ramsay is Stupid Evil. Euron isn't.

And Euron's ambitions are completely different to Show Ramsay's which are pretty mundane. Like Euron wants to conquer the world and become a god-like being, kills the gods,become a dragon rider, sit the Iron Throne and marry Daenerys.

He's also possibly serving a higher power.

Euron is the Saruman of ASOIAF:

"Structurally, like Saruman, Euron is the human(oid) villain that comes out of nowhere in an attempt to copy/preempt the inhuman villain gathering its Forces of Evil in a specific cardinal direction. (Indeed, just as Saruman prevents Rohan from coming to Gondor’s aid against Mordor until the very last second, so will Euron keep much of the South from addressing the Others until it’s almost too late.)

Thematically, like Saruman, Euron was raised as a champion of the good gods (Valar/Bloodraven) before losing himself in his lust for power. Both have naught but contempt for the orders and codes to which they used to belong (Istari/Ironborn), considering themselves elevated above all other beings by their marination in dangerous magic. Both are terrifying and yet somehow pathetic, their defining ability to charm and corrupt pointedly failing them at times (Euron against Rodrik at the Shields, Saruman against Theoden at Isengard). Above all, both serve as a reminder that the coming of darkness is not greeted with dread by all; some delight in these moments of apocalypse, seeing them as nothing but a vacuum to fill, or a wave to ride. And horribly enough, such people are not fringe lunatics: Saruman and Euron are in positions of great power, able to hijack the Good-Evil battles around them for their own twisted ambitions. "

------

"So where you see Barad-dur in the Hightower, I see Orthanc; the glass candles are Euron’s palantir, the Ironborn his Dunlendings, the Deep Ones his Uruk-hai, the Reach his Rohan…and the Others, ultimately, are the analogue to the true-antagonist-returned-from-dormancy Sauron, just rooted in a different cardinal direction."

Excellent stuff, my friend.
 

Geist-

Member
The Karstarks are actually in a split camp.

The Karstarks that conspire with Roose are castellans of Karhold not the true rulers and they want to be paid for their efforts. They don't give a damn that Robb killed Rickard. They just want to become lords of Karhold first. They can worry about Ramsay after that.

And Alys Karstark, the heir to Karhold is actually on team Jon/ Stannis.

As the northerners say "a man can deal with Roose but his son seems a monster in human skin"

And the only reason half the North is fighting for Roose is because the Freys are holding their relatives captive

The Ramsay in the books shows what being stupid evil does

If Ramsay was an actual nice guy, it's unlikely that Stannis would've gotten so many people from the North to fight for him

Exactly. In the show, there's what, like 2 small houses that join Jon's army? So instead the show had to rely on a Deus Ex Machina because D&D didn't think the North should have a significant role in the story after the Boltons betray just about every house in the North by killing everyone during the Red Wedding.

You'd think the Northern Houses would be a little more pissed off after that.
 

Zabka

Member
I know why the show says he betrays him. It just absolutely did not feel right in regards to how their relationship was portrayed before.

Because they seemed like a warm, caring family? They're a family of backstabbers. Here's the scene where Roose tells Ramsay about the pregnancy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_J40KHcIko Do you think Ramsay bought that (relatively) sappy BS at the end?

The Karstarks are actually in a split camp.

The Karstarks that conspire with Roose are castellans of Karhold not the true rulers and they want to be paid for their efforts. They don't give a damn that Robb killed Rickard. They just want to become lords of Karhold first. They can worry about Ramsay after that.

And Alys Karstark, the heir to Karhold is actually on team Jon/ Stannis.

As the northerners say "a man can deal with Roose but his son seems a monster in human skin"

And the only reason half the North is fighting for Roose is because the Freys are holding their relatives captive

The Ramsay in the books shows what being stupid evil does

If Ramsay was an actual nice guy, it's unlikely that Stannis would've gotten so many people from the North to fight for him
Yeah. Ramsay is a well-known sadist in the books. Not so much in the show, but then again show Ramsay has never had his dogs rape women.
 

Geist-

Member
Because they seemed like a warm, caring family? They're a family of backstabbers. Here's the scene where Roose tells Ramsay about the pregnancy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_J40KHcIko Do you think Ramsay bought that (relatively) sappy BS at the end?

I'm not saying that Ramsay thought his father was loving. I'm saying Ramsay was terrified of his father. Or at the very least Roose knew his son and knew how to control him. Him being killed by Ramsay is such a disappointment after building him up as someone who might be scarier than Ramsay.
 

Zabka

Member
I'm not saying that Ramsay thought his father was loving. I'm saying Ramsay was terrified of his father. Or at the very least Roose knew his son and knew how to control him.

What? You said he's not scared of anything in the show, including his dad. I said Ramsay was terrified of his father and showed a clip where that is very strong undercurrent.
 

Black_Sun

Member
Because they seemed like a warm, caring family? They're a family of backstabbers. Here's the scene where Roose tells Ramsay about the pregnancy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_J40KHcIko Do you think Ramsay bought that (relatively) sappy BS at the end?


Yeah. Ramsay is a well-known sadist in the books. Not so much in the show, but then again show Ramsay has never had his dogs rape women.

Yeah but they compensate for that by making some of the Bolton's brutality more well known

And Ramsay is shown hunting girls. To be fair though it might not be something he does often though.

But anyways the North knows Roose betrayed them and killed their relatives at their wedding

They know what Ramsay flayed the Cerwyns

And it's not implied that they're holding Northern captives at the Twins to keep the North loyal
 

Geist-

Member
What? You said he's not scared of anything in the show, including his dad. I said Ramsay was terrified of his father and showed a clip where that is very strong undercurrent.

That's what I would have thought, but Roose was disposed of rather quickly and unceremoniously, so the show makes it feel like Ramsay was never afraid of anything and was just concerned about making sure his position was secure. If anything, the show is implying (with how quick it happened) that he was indeed never afraid of anything and he's just a cartoon villain who always has a perfect plan until the Hero stumbles into a victory.
 

FStubbs

Member
That's what I would have thought, but Roose was disposed of rather quickly and unceremoniously, so the show makes it feel like Ramsay was never afraid of anything and was just concerned about making sure his position was secure. If anything, the show is implying (with how quick it happened) that he was indeed never afraid of anything and he's just a cartoon villain who always has a perfect plan until the Hero stumbles into a victory.

I don't know about that. I don't think show Ramsay planned on killing Roose but knew the moment Roose walked out of that room he was dead, so he had no choice. He even feels Roose up during the hug to see if he's wearing armor.
 
What do you guys think of this? Saw it on reddit and found it incredibly interesting.

Its about Jon's path and death this season. ITs fucking awesome.

Jon's story this season has been about his death. Not the death of his body, which lasted a few episodes and about a single day in the in-universe timeline. This season has been about the death of his spirit, a much more meaningful death than mere flesh. The death of his spirit stretched out with pieces of Jon being chipped away until he had no hope, only fear and despair. That despair comes to a head when Rickon dies in front of him, and its why he charged the Bolton lines all alone. He wasn't fooled or lured out. He was looking for an end.

'Battle of the Bastards' isn't a story about fighting to regain a home or a title. 'Battle of the Bastards' is the story of Jon's resurrection.

People who say that Jon hasn't noticeably changed by coming back from death have missed the change, because they expected the change to be for the better. Jon's behavior this season has been characterized by fear. Fear of death, certainly. But more than that is fear of not having a say in his own fate. Jon's life has mostly sucked for the past 5 years, and then he was murdered by his own men. That would make anybody afraid of the future, that all its going to be is more shit and misery. As he says to Sansa:
Jon: I'm tired of fighting. Its all I've done since I left Winterfell... I've fought, and I lost.
Jon shows that fear every time he is reminded that he can't control his own fate. When anybody mentions his death, he looks like a beaten dog. When Sansa wants to retake Winterfell, he wants nothing to do with it, and he only agrees to it when Sansa presses him with the knowledge that Ramsey has Rickon. Even when he agrees, he looks afraid, like he wants to be anywhere in the world other than where he is, or maybe be anybody other than who he is.

This leads to the discussions the night before the battle. In talking with Sansa its clear that Jon doesn't believe they'll win, but he doesn't have any other choice than to follow the path he is on.

Sansa: Its not enough!
Jon: No its not enough, its what we have!
This is followed by one of the most devastating exchanges I've ever seen on the show.
Sansa: I'm not going back there alive. Do you understand me?
Jon: I won't ever let him touch you again. I'll protect you, I promise.
Sansa: No one can protect me. No one can protect anyone.

Setting aside what this says about Sansa's state of mind, this exchange is devastating to Jon's state of mind. Protecting Sansa is the only task Jon has willingly embraced since dying. Jon is only at Winterfell because of Sansa and Rickon, and now Sansa has declared that he is powerless to do the one thing he wants to do: protect his family.
This declaration of Jon's powerlessness is followed by his conversation with Melisandre where he asks Mel not to bring him back if he dies. Thats Jon trying to gain power over at least one thing: the ability to have it all end for good, and not be forced back into the shit and misery again. Mel won't even give him that, because she has to try, and its up to the Lord of Light as to whether or not Jon is brought back.

Mel: Maybe he brought you here to die again.
Jon: What kind of god would do something like that?
Mel: The one we've got.

At this point, Jon has control over nothing. He can't protect his family, he's on the verge of a battle he never wanted, he doesn't have enough men to have any real control over whether they win or lose, and he can't even trust that death will bring it all to an end. His hope for the future is hanging on by a thread.

Then Ramsey lets Rickon run across the field. Forget all that "Jon is a Stark who is loyal to his family" stuff. This is much simpler. The only thing Jon is living for at this moment is to protect the two family members he can. One of them just denied that he can protect her. The other one is running across the field with arrows flying down. When Rickon starts running across the field, there is only one thing left for Jon: protect his little brother. He has no power, only the thread of hope that he can do that.
Rickon dies, and the screen darkens as the camera looks down at him from Jon's perspective. When Jon looks at Ramsey its not with anger but with despair. The gods keep pouring shit down on Jon, and spat in the face of the last bit of hope he had.
Thats why he charges. True, there were arrows coming down that he was trying to outrun, but they were being released in volleys; he could have tried turning around and escaping between volleys. But he wasn't trying to escape the arrows, or lead his men to victory, or kill Ramsey. He was charging as a challenge to the gods, either to keep him alive or let him die in peace. When his horse goes down, he thinks he has an answer: the gods didn't bring him there to magically pull out a victory, they really did bring him there just to die again. But at the very last second his own men catch up, and he has to fight.

As the battle progresses, he finds himself buried beneath the bodies, the metaphor of the gods pouring misery down on his head suddenly becoming literal. He could have stopped there, give up and suffocate beneath the weight. Thats what makes the 'rebirth' scene so powerful: he claws his way back out and declares that he wants to live. Even Kit Harington describes the scene this way:

“When the crush starts happening, he slows down, and there's that thing of peace where he thinks: 'I could just stay here and let it all end.’ "And then something drives him to fight up, and that moment when he comes up and grasps for breath, he is reborn again. . ."

After a season where Jon has wanted to run away, a season of fear and worry, a season where he has no control, he declares in the face of all of it that he still wants to live. This is followed almost immediately by defeat turning into victory, with the gods sending salvation in the form of saviors from the Vale. When Jon climbs over the bodies and stares down Ramsey, he has a look in his eyes he hasn't had all season, one that I don't think he's ever had on the show: the look of absolute intent, a man who knows what he wants and is about to go take it.

This season has been about Jon's death. First the death of his body. Then the death of his belief, and the death of his will. Then finally the death of his hope.

Only in the final minutes of 'Battle of the Bastards' has Jon truly returned to life, and now we'll finally see the change that everybody expected back when life returned to his body.
Jon always had the ice. Now he has the fire.
 
What do you guys think of this? Saw it on reddit and found it incredibly interesting.

Its about Jon's path and death this season. ITs fucking awesome.

Posted last page, I believe. My post on it:

This is a cool interpretation but reads more like a novelization or fanfic of the season rather than anything explored in the season itself. Jon's arc really focusing on death, what it means to him, whether or not he even wants to be alive, ending with his affirmation, would have been great. I don't feel we got that though--it was more lipservice to those ideas, if anything.

Also:
People who say that Jon hasn't noticeably changed by coming back from death have missed the change, because they expected the change to be for the better.
...who the hell thought it would be for the better? See: Black_Sun's post on how his resurrection doesn't even really fit into the show's own canon, because he's largely unchanged.

Stuff like this:
But he wasn't trying to escape the arrows, or lead his men to victory, or kill Ramsey. He was charging as a challenge to the gods, either to keep him alive or let him die in peace. When his horse goes down, he thinks he has an answer: the gods didn't bring him there to magically pull out a victory, they really did bring him there just to die again. But at the very last second his own men catch up, and he has to fight.
It's an interesting way to read it, but I don't feel like the show supports it at all. All we get are little sneak peeks into Jon's mentality and transformation--nothing to draw all of this out of the battle.

It's kinda like Arya's Faceless Men arc. "Arya goes to become an assassin, realizes it's not for her, and understands who she truly is: a Stark". That sounds like it could be a really compelling story, but that's not what we got, although I'm sure someone could dress it up to make it sound a lot more grandiose.
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
That's what I would have thought, but Roose was disposed of rather quickly and unceremoniously, so the show makes it feel like Ramsay was never afraid of anything and was just concerned about making sure his position was secure. If anything, the show is implying (with how quick it happened) that he was indeed never afraid of anything and he's just a cartoon villain who always has a perfect plan until the Hero stumbles into a victory.

Roose was presented as far more threatening in the books.

Seems a run of the mill lord in the show.
 
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