John Dunbar
correct about everything
which is more important, the number of her children or the fact that one of them died in a horsey accident?
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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6
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which is more important, the number of her children or the fact that one of them died in a horsey accident?
No but you don't understand, it deviates from the books. D&D are fucking idiots.
Anton Sugar
Member
FTFY
And while I'd argue that the first few seasons were a lot more grounded, logical, and believable, at this point, you're pretty much right. I think around S3/4 (around when Karl Tanner was on, ironically) is when the show started to shed the more "boring" (as D&D might say, or as they may worry we perceived) intricacies and gray areas that were faithfully translated.
Moff
Member
The books have plenty of black&white characters. You'll have a hard time to find any grey in joffrey, ramsay, jon or davos, and those are just the ones that just came to my mind.
Well, seems to be what he's saying. Only they have actually been consistently so.
It isn't a coincidence that the quality of the show nosedived alongside the source material.
Nah I liked that part, there was a big theme on the episode of good leaders fight for their men (Dany and Jon), bad leaders don't (slavers and Ramsay). The men didn't really know if they should intervene at that point, because it was his fight.
It wasn't merely a child, it was the king of the north for all intents and purposes!
The north loyalty fluctuated depending on plot needs I guess.
Indeed. Ramsay even said he changed his mind about the one on one fight. It really became a final stand among the two of them.
Moff
Member
wait, dany is a good leader?
John Dunbar
correct about everything
she totally didn't mean it when she said she would burn all their cities.
Joffrey had a beautiful singing voice, even Sansa thought so.
Maybe its because I keep thinking about the books as most of what you wrote about is D and D. He shows battle ability, but then that gets abandoned for his futile arrow shots into Jon. His men shoot hundreds of arrows at Wen Wen but it is only Ramsay's arrow that kills him. They completely oversell Ramsay's abilities for multiple seasons and when he does go down, he puts up a pathetic fight.
Show Ramsay is made into this top of Westeros killer and strategist and it just got boring for all his plans and actions to work flawlessly when those plans and actions were incredibly improbable.
She's had lots of hurdles but her mission overall is motivated more by the good of all people than for personal gain. I know people will say "nah she's totally a villain cause she wanted to burn cities and shit" but it's obvious she's being written as a character that will do more good than harm to the world. Freeing slaves as a major story arc, etc.
Moff
Member
apparently you understand "good" as "benevolent" and not as the opposite of bad
I think she is a bad leader and that is what will turn her from a benevolent leader to a fire and blood leader
Ramsay shows intelligence?
nah
Anyways the problem with Ramsay is that he gets rewarded for being stupid evil which is what doesn't fit in this universe
How are Jon and Davos not even a little gray in the books?
Davos is a former criminal that cheats on his wife.
Jon is an oathbreaker that threatens to burn Gilly's baby if she doesn't do what he wants and earns that stabbing from the NW because he can't put his duty in front of his desires.
And GRRM isn't planning to bring back Jon as a super nice guy like the show.
Jon in addition to Dany and Tyrion are all on journeys to become more villainous people
Breaking bad rules does not qualify as being morally grey IMO.
Moff
Member
I'll judge Jon's new character when I read it
I doubt GAF still exists then but if yes we can pick that up again
and a past as a smuggler is not grey. first because it's in the past and second because smuggler is literally the least criminal you can be. I don't even think it's bad.
I doubt GAF still exists then but if yes we can pick that up again
and a past as a smuggler is not grey. first because it's in the past and second because smuggler is literally the least criminal you can be. I don't even think it's bad.
I took it as Ramsay issuing a challenge of his own, the men looked at Jon and he seemed more than willing to take him on 1 v 1.
Heck, maybe in Ramsay's deranged mind, if he won, he would actually be let free.
He's portrayed as the type who is strong when in his element, so it makes sense that he doesn't know what to do when he's not on home turf.
Good as in "competent"? Well, no, obviously. She is good as in "I want people to live in a better world than the one I was born in".
I understood what you meant, but what I'm saying is that what is a "good leader" in fiction is often equated to righteousness since characters are inspired by honorable leaders and generally bad guys have a hard time keeping control. She was brought to the east with nothing except her tits and she now has thousands of people who follow her. For the most part it was her devotion to good causes that garnered so much support. Ultimately she'll be seen as a good leader because her side will succeed and people will back her in admiration rather than fear.
Of course that assumes she "wins."
And also assumes that she doesn't become a fire and blood leader, which she very well could become, there's obviously a lot of foreshadowing in that direction. I just think that there's been far too much time developing her as someone who is, on the whole, benevolent, to suddenly in the span of two books/13 television episodes recharacterize her as a psycho.
There's a lot of prophecizing and fate woven into the story, but foreshadowing that's too obvious often ends up wrong in GOT. I'm holding out hope that Cersei is confronted with a fortune teller on her death bed and she says like "hah I wasn't killed by my little brother, at least that part of the prophecy didn't come true" and the fortune teller says "nah there was no real prophecy you just got John Edwarded by a drunk lady in a tent, all that bad shit happened to you because youre a heap of human garbage. Sorry"
blazenumb1
Member
This. Just in last episode Tyrion had to talk her down from burning down cities and killing everyone(guilty and innocent). It's only a matter of time before she becomes just like the mad king.
It's not even a bad rule in this case because by helping Stannis he's condemning the North to a longer civil war hurting both sides and leaving everyone weaker for the Others.
Like Jon isn't getting involved with the Boltons for the greater good. He just doesn't like them especially since he thinks they're marrying Arya to Ramsay. He's purely antagonizing them out of love for his family.
Are you in the wrong thread? Last I checked, this is the Game of Thrones thread about the award winning HBO series created by DB Weiss and David Benioff. So why would you be thinking about the books when wondering what fits in the universe of this critically acclaimed series which has increased viewership season on season for five years now?
He's an intelligent young man. Obviously not some genius scholarly meister sort, but he has battle smarts. He knows when to take a small team of 20 good men to destroy the enemy's supplies, and he knows when to command an army of 5000 not-so-good men out into the field to fight. He knows how to push people's buttons and make them overreact.
I'm not sure what doesn't fit into this universe here. Walder Frey is a pretty stupid and bitter old man who likes to molest his own underaged daughters, and he's very much still alive and he has been rewarded several times now. I think people just want to see what they want to see. They don't like Ramsay, so they make up stuff to claim he's a "bad character". He's the rock upon which Game of Thrones has been built on for a few seasons now. Certainly the highlight of Season 5. A great villain which everyone loves to hate. The final two seasons might struggle without him.
This isn't Star Wars. They're not all Han Solos.
Davos is also culpable in Penrose's death.
Are there total numbers for downloads? It would be super weird if people got into the show late but never went back to catch up. I hear casual watchers complain about being confused all the time and I wonder if it's because they just skipped three seasons or whatever.
demosthenes
Member
I don't think so, I have friends that enjoy watching that get lost in the characters. They watch it for 10 weeks, and then have 42 weeks off. They don't talk about it like I do, they possibly haven't read the books like I have and haven't rewatched episodes/seasons. There are a lot of characters and I understand that they get lost here and there.
Nope. Not once does this happen or is anything close to this alluded to in Game of Thrones.
VenomousCoffee
Member
Have you ever watched Cocaine Cowboys?
I imagine this will play as the wall crumbles and the walkers enter westeros. Meanwhile bran finally discovers jon's real heritage
No, he's stupid evil. That's what I mean when I say the plot rewards him for his idiot moves. Realistically, his 20 man crack squad of ninjas would not have been able to burn as much as they did down when they're in the middle of a blizzard.
Ramsay's tactics was Hollywood tactics. Nothing about it was smart. Shooting arrows into your own men
1) lowers their morale
2) hurts your guys more than the enemy's because your men's backs are facing your arrows while your enemies have their shields facing them
Also surrounding men like Ramsay did will make them fight harder. He should be leaving a corridor for them to route.
And he definitely should've waited for their calvary to charge as his infantry advanced. His spear wall could've handled all the horses on Jon's side.
Anyways Walder Frey doesn't like to molest his underraged daughers. Do you mean his wife?
Walder Frey has been rewarded for his betrayal of Robb Stark but he's also being punished too. Which is a reason that LS' removal kinda bugs me but whatevs. Walder Frey has lost more relatives post Red Wedding than he ever has before that and the Frey body count is only continuing to go up.
radios shipping overview
Member
The Mountain/Ser Robert Strong
Vargo Hoat and the Brave Companions (Rorge, Biter, etc.)
The Mad King Aerys
Euron Crow's Eye
Walder Frey
Victarion
Ramsay
Viserys
I'd say that the books have plenty of supervillains. GRRM seems to really get into writing colorfully sadistic and cartoonishly evil characters in order to push readers' buttons and create a sense of revulsion. The main difference with the show is that because of the show's muted aesthetics, the sadists tend to come off more like average punks and, unfortunately, their dialogue is written by D&D. Plus, due to the way the show handles POV compared to the books, we see a lot more of certain ones like Ramsay, which leads to fatigue when we see their moustache-twirling a bit too often. Whereas they're able to be built up as monsters from afar when we only see them now and then in the books.
Vargo Hoat and the Brave Companions (Rorge, Biter, etc.)
The Mad King Aerys
Euron Crow's Eye
Walder Frey
Victarion
Ramsay
Viserys
I'd say that the books have plenty of supervillains. GRRM seems to really get into writing colorfully sadistic and cartoonishly evil characters in order to push readers' buttons and create a sense of revulsion. The main difference with the show is that because of the show's muted aesthetics, the sadists tend to come off more like average punks and, unfortunately, their dialogue is written by D&D. Plus, due to the way the show handles POV compared to the books, we see a lot more of certain ones like Ramsay, which leads to fatigue when we see their moustache-twirling a bit too often. Whereas they're able to be built up as monsters from afar when we only see them now and then in the books.
In the show he's the one with justification to fight the Boltons.
In the books, he spent all book anatagonizing them from imprisoning one of their allies to kidnapping the Lady of Winterfell to giving northern campaign advice to Stannis to letting Mance go free.
Jon's narrator voice even emphasizes that he's going to battle Ramsay for his sister not for the greater good while he wrestles with what he should be doing:
"I won't say you're wrong. What do you mean to do, crow?"
Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell I want my bride back I want my bride back I want my bride back
"I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said.
Yep. I know. I read all the books. But in this thread we're talking about the TV show, and what you're saying doesn't happen in the show.
It's a television show. There is no "realistically". Things happen as they are written. If you can't suspend that belief, why bother watching it at all? Realistically, maybe Jon wouldn't have gotten the support of the Wildlings like he did. Realistically, Littlefinger can't move around as quickly as he does. Realistically, Arya should be dead from infection. Realistically, Winters don't last decades and there are no dragons.
I'm not sure what you're even arguing here. He employed some poor tactics in the battle because he thought he had the numbers advantage and was just fucking with them. Yes, they were dumb moves, and guess what, he lost the battle. So.... what are we even talking about? It doesn't mean he doesn't have intellect. Even smart people do dumb stuff when they're overconfident.
His wife was killed in the Red Wedding. Isn't the new cupbearer one of his daughters? She looks even younger than the wife he had at the Red Wedding. He didn't seem to have any issues with slapping her behind in the last scene we saw him in...
?????????????
How has he been punished? What relatives did he lose post Red Wedding? I mean he's a villain so we expect he'll be punished eventually, but it's been 3 seasons of happy times for him so far. His biggest concern of late was people laughing at him for losing Riverrun, and now he has it back. His total fuckup sons (?) didn't even die in the attempt because the Great Jaime Lannister arrived and saved the day. The Great Jaime Lannister who fucks his sister, pushes children out of windows, and is guilty of the crime of being unreasonable good looking in a suit of Lannister armor.
Viserys, Victarion, Walder Frey and the Mountain aren't actually cartoony super villains.
Viserys is actually a pretty deep character and he's just cracked from living a hard life. Even when he threatens to cut out Dany's baby at Vaes Dothrak, he's completely drunk.
Victarion isn't sadistic. He has standards when Euron disgraces Serry's family by having the women serve the ironborn naked. He just loves battle and wants to kill his brother and ascend the Seastone chair. He's also just dumb . His chapters are pure black comedy.
Walder Frey is just a petty and bitter old man with a lot of ambition.
And the Mountain is just a brute. He's also always on opium for the headaches he suffers because of his gigantism which probably effects his empathy and why he has such a short temper. The Mountain's a deconstruction of the freakishly big evil guy.
Anyways the main reason why Show Ramsay is infuriating is that the show cheats to help him.
Well yeah then why bring it up? I was making comparisons between the books and show.
I never said that this happened in the show. I even said Arya in the original post not Sansa.
Anton Sugar
Member
I don't think that the book doesn't have black and white characters, but the show often skews towards extremes more than intricacy or dimension.
When it comes down to it, it's a beautiful low brow show. I don't use "low brow" as a pejorative, either. It's just a show that's not interesting in meditating too long on any specific idea, theme, or concept. Right now it's just about watching these characters and what happens to them. The seasons haven't had a unified concept/throughline for years, now. Bits and pieces of them exist here and there through an errant storyline, but nothing significant to follow for 10 episodes other than "what happens next week?"
It's pleasant, in a way. I really miss the show of the first few seasons (with scenes like this that start as nothing more than a discussion on duty and evolves into something haunting and still relevant) but I like sitting down every Sunday and watching this beautifully rendered world that isn't particularly revelatory, just entertaining.
There isn't a comparison, you're framing your point around a characterization that's present in the books but isn't in the show. You aren't comparing the differences between the two, you're talking (again) about the lore as if this is a discussion about the novels and not the show that's based off of them.
Saint Gregory
Member
I actually like the concept of show Ramsay a lot but the execution was butchered. I can't say for sure whether or not it was bad writing or bad acting but he just came across as way too cartoonish a villain for my tastes.
He actually got really boring towards the end because it became so predictable what wild and crazy thing he was going to do next.
He actually got really boring towards the end because it became so predictable what wild and crazy thing he was going to do next.
It seems weird to think of the show individually as "low brow" when the source material is just as shameless and silly.
I read AFFC recently, and between AFFC and ADWD I read The Buried Giant, which is a dark fairy tale set in a fantasy world not unlike Game of Thrones/ASOIAF. Going back to GRRM's writing was jarring, not because it was more violent or anything, but because it was so pulpy and juvenile in comparison, and thematically it couldn't touch the depth, relevance or beauty of The Buried Giant.
I think it's absolutely fair to say that Ramsay was possibly too cheesy for some people because the performance was really hammed up. Ultimately that's a matter of taste, and not all the characters and how they're handled is going to be up everyone's alley. It worked for me though, because he was like Karl Tanner 2.0 with an actual backstory, so it was cool. But what I'm arguing against is the idea that apparently Ramsay is "doesn't fit the universe". Cause, after 6 seasons of this, not sure how anyone can really say that with a straight face.
Oldest Snake
Member
As a performance he was really well done, I just think they gave him too much to do. At some point he just started to bore be because I knew that whatever he was doing it was going to be E.V.I.L.
I wasn't excited when he died because he was finally get what he deserved, just that he was finally not going to be around anymore.
Anton Sugar
Member
I think the books, even the later ones, do a better job of establishing motifs or themes that resonant. Part of the reason they're not as strong, thematically, in later books is because they are literally split up/cut apart.
It's also easier to manage multiple themes, per storyline, in novel simply because you have a lot more time. It often seems like, when D&D are deciding the next season's storyline, it's "Ok, so what's Tyrion doing? What about Dany? And let's not forget about Sam, what's he up to? Alright, everyone's got something to kinda do, good--let's do this" rather than introducing any unified idea.
That actually reminds me a lot of the Hound's reintroduction this season where he comes to learn the Septon who saved him was a similarly shitty person in a former life.
I will agree that he fits in the show universe, but that is only because of the ridiculousness of what has been shown before. Rickon's death was mustache twirling and even if it fits with what is happening in the show universe, it is still bad.
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