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*UNMARKED SPOILERS ALL BOOKS* Game of Thrones |OT| - Season 6

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Cromwell

Banned
He linked an interview in the last page. With this in it
81cbcbc292.png


Here's the interview.
https://web.archive.org/web/19991013131915/http://cyberhaven.com/books/sciencefiction/martin.html

I'm baffled he actually said that, though it was 1999. In every interview I've seen him in since GoT began he always points out how he tries to avoid the traditional villain/hero descriptors, and I think that's always been evident in his books. I'd like to see if he would still call Tyrion a villain, or to at least expand upon how he defines the word in the context of his work.

So Jon Targaryen eh? But if he took his vows to the Nights Watch, doesn't it say you give up any land, name, yadda yadda?

He was released from the Watch when he died.
 

Brakke

Banned
He linked an interview in the last page. With this in it
81cbcbc292.png


Here's the interview.
https://web.archive.org/web/19991013131915/http://cyberhaven.com/books/sciencefiction/martin.html

Sometimes people are wrong about the things they've created. See also, show dudes not realizing that Jaime raped Cersei in the Sept after Joffrey's death.

Book-Tyrion is way way way more hateful than show-Tyrion but "villain" is a stretch. It's complicated tho, since book-Tyrion hasn't really had any power at all for last like eighteen hundred pages, so it's kind of hard to say if he's abusing power or not.
 

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
He linked an interview in the last page. With this in it
81cbcbc292.png


Here's the interview.
https://web.archive.org/web/19991013131915/http://cyberhaven.com/books/sciencefiction/martin.html
I'm pretty doubtful that a 1999 interview about Clash of Kings is that revelatory for the end game after 17 years. The villain comment was most likely hinting at how Tyrion would kill his father in the next book and become more of a gray character.

But this is the show thread, so I digress.
 

TTG

Member
Tyrion is a villain according to GRRM.

And no, Daenerys is even standing next to Drogon when the Dothraki find her .

And no she can't have children again or if she does it'll kill her. MMD'a prophecy is about when the real Drogo will come back to her and you could interpret that as either never of when Daenerys births a living child and dies in child birth.

And Quentyn Martell is burned to death by the dragons.


Why the emphasis on her menstruating/bleeding heavily then? Well, that was a sentence I didn't see myself typing in this thread.
 

Black_Sun

Member
I have to disagree. He's most likely not a warg, or the much rarer greenseer. And Brynden Rivers is called 'the Last Greenseer', also I don't see him teaching someone like Euron. Everything we've seen, so far, from Euron is eastern magic. IIRC, he was crazy enough to sail to the ruins of old Valyria, which then made him crazier.

The thing is that Bloodraven most likely taught Euron before he knew what he was and once he realized that he discontinued his lessons.

If Brynden Rivers is the last greenseer then Bran isn't a greenseer or else he isn't the last. Anyways all three of them are greenseers. It's just that Brynden has realized his potential and Euron and Bran haven't.

Bran is interested in the Children of the Forest and the legends Beyond the Wall and Euron is interested in Valyrianand is trying to position himself as Valyria's heir even trying to get married to Daenerys and ride a dragon.

Euron's plotline is also converging with the white walkers and Daenerys'.

The passage on the Bloodstone Emperor in AWOIAF is foreshadowing of what Euron is going to be doing:


"His was a reign of terror. The Bloodstone Emperor not only practiced torture, but also dark arts, necromancy. He enslaved his own people, took a tiger-woman for wife, feasted on human flesh and cast down the true gods of Yi Ti, to worship a black stone that fell from the sky. The Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is known is the annals of the Further East, ushered in the Long Night, in which the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world and the Lion of Night came forth in all his power to punish the wickedness of man.

He's believed by some scholars to have beeen the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom."

Anyways like I said there is too much evidence of Euron and a at being connected that doesn't make sense unless Euron is a greenseer which BR would be interested in.
 

Cromwell

Banned
The Mountain is raping Septa Unella, correct?



Oh? How is she alive in TR books? We watched her get her throat slashed on the show, so she didn't exactly die off-screen. (Though I guess that's irrelevant, considering Jon.)

Lady Stoneheart, but she is 100% not appearing in the show at this point. They're in the home stretch and whatever role she fills (we have no idea till TWoW comes out) is likely being filled by some mixture of Sansa, Arya, and the Brotherhood Without Banners.
 

Tenck

Member
The Mountain is raping Septa Unella, correct?



Oh? How is she alive in TR books? We watched her get her throat slashed on the show, so she didn't exactly die off-screen. (Though I guess that's irrelevant, considering Jon.)

Arya pulls her out of a river when she's in Nymeria cause she smells familiar. Then Beric resurrects her and ends up dying.
 

duckroll

Member
I'm pretty doubtful that a 1999 interview about Clash of Kings is that revelatory for the end game after 17 years. The villain comment was most likely hinting at how Tyrion would kill his father in the next book and become more of a gray character.

But this is the show thread, so I digress.

I always felt his comment was just a nod to how Tyrion was a Lannister. They are the bad guys, but he is the good bad guy. The one on the wrong side but likeable.
 

Corpekata

Banned
Tyrion is a villain on paper by simple family association to the Starks, the heroes, but he's clearly not a villain in mechanics or character within the story.
 

Brakke

Banned
AWOIAF was a mistake it's nothing but trash.

Yo I was a little disappointed with Tower of Joy Lyanna tho. Book-Lyanna beats up punkass bullies and maybe poses as a knight to whoop ass for Howland Reed's sake. But Show-Lyanna just kind of bleeds a lot and whines about fearing death. I wanted my girl to face mortality with a bit of grit at least.
 

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
I always felt his comment was just a nod to how Tyrion was a Lannister. They are the bad guys, but he is the good bad guy. The one on the wrong side but likeable.
That too. The comment was pre-SoS so the series was still very much in its "Starks good, Lannisters bad" phase.
 

Squire

Banned
I would post the shame nun with the bell to keep in spirit with the show, but she's being tortured by the mountain and all.

By the way, did anyone else think Tyrion is falling for Dany? It seemed obvious, and one sided, to me.

I caught a whiff of that too, yeah. So cliche, but that relationship has gone so much better than you'd expect for this show that I guess a monkey wrench of some sort has to come into it eventually.
 

Black_Sun

Member
I'm pretty doubtful that a 1999 interview about Clash of Kings is that revelatory for the end game after 17 years. The villain comment was most likely hinting at how Tyrion would kill his father in the next book and become more of a gray character.

But this is the show thread, so I digress.

GRRM knows where his characters are going. He's said that he's known Tyrion's character arc from the beginning.

Tyrion is a rapist, kin-slayer, murderer and a general douchebag.

Yeah he has moments of empathy but he's also completely callous about the lives of the smallfolk or slaves

He thinks democracy is stupid and giving a voice to women is ridiculous.

He kills shame because he feels humiliated by her.

His ambition is to wreck as much havoc in Westeros as possible which is why he tricks Aegon into going west and to rape his sister.
 

RiZ III

Member
Lady Stoneheart, but she is 100% not appearing in the show at this point. They're in the home stretch and whatever role she fills (we have no idea till TWoW comes out) is likely being filled by some mixture of Sansa, Arya, and the Brotherhood Without Banners.

Yea I suppose you're probably right. That really sucks. Her being alive has been the most fascinating thing for me in the book. Just thinking how she will react once she realizes that all of her other kids are still alive, how she will react once winterfell is back in stark hands, her potential reunion with her kids, etc.. Though even in the books she's pretty f'd up at this point so I wouldn't be surprised if she's too mentally unstable to have any sort of happy ending.
 

Cromwell

Banned
That too. The comment was pre-SoS so the series was still very much in its "Starks good, Lannisters bad" phase.

Yeah, exactly.

I wonder if he even thought the series would go past 3 or 4 books in 1999. Whatever rough outline of the overall plot he had back then has likely changed dramatically.
 

Aiii

So not worth it
Tyrion is a rapist, kin-slayer, murderer and a general douchebag.

You are describing Tyrion as some of the ignorant smallfolks drinking the Lannister kool-aid would.

How do you read the books and boil down Tyrion Lannister to this description?
 

Black_Sun

Member
I always felt his comment was just a nod to how Tyrion was a Lannister. They are the bad guys, but he is the good bad guy. The one on the wrong side but likeable.

Tyrion starts out as a decent guy becoming an evil man. Tyrion is GRRM's Walter White.

He's even on a parallel arc to Jaime's villain to hero story where he goes from hero to villain.

Like seriously he feeds a singer to the poor.

He hits Shae because he thinks she's mocking him.

He rapes sex slaves.

His only ambition is to fuck Westeros and rape Cersei.

How is this a hero?
 

duckroll

Member
I don't know about the rest of you, but honestly, I'm getting really tired of reading about arguments regarding exclusively the books in this thread. There's a book thread to argue about plot points exclusive to the books. This thread is about the show, and exists so people who have read the books can talk about the show but with the occasional comparison or discussion drawing from book material. But if you want to argue about what is or isn't true with regards to the books exclusive, why do it here?
 

RiZ III

Member
GRRM knows where his characters are going. He's said that he's known Tyrion's character arc from the beginning.

Tyrion is a rapist, kin-slayer, murderer and a general douchebag.

Yeah he has moments of empathy but he's also completely callous about the lives of the smallfolk or slaves

He thinks democracy is stupid and giving a voice to women is ridiculous.

He kills shame because he feels humiliated by her.

His ambition is to wreck as much havoc in Westeros as possible which is why he tricks Aegon into going west and to rape his sister.

Huh...I haven't gotten that impression of him in the books at all. When was he a rapist? The only difference I see him in the book is that he never forgot about his first love. I recall him killing Shae simply cause she betrayed him, not necessarily because he was humiliated by her. Him killing his father made more sense in the book as well. He killed him for having his wife raped and sending her off to who knows where. I don't think he came off as any more arrogant or "douchy" in the books than in the show. If anything his actions of killing his father and hating people in general were more justified in the books than in the show.
 

Kain

Member
Book Tyrion is more of an anti-hero than villain, but he's definetely not a good guy. He had his moments of goodness before his father and Shae shit all over his good side. Then Penny sort of awoke some of those feelings again, but his main aim is to fuck all over Westeros and specially his siblings, so basically he's a bitter middle age guy who doesn't give a fuck anymore. And he has a silver tongue, that shit can get you far in the ASOIAF world, just look at LF.

Show Tyrion is a good guy, they are just different. I prefer show Tyrion right now to be honest.
 

Brakke

Banned
Remember when GRR's plan was for Tyrion and Jon to fight eachother over 8 year old Arya's sexy affections? Who puts any stock by anything Martin's claimed about his plans? I think it's likely that he's going to change some things just to spite the show.

You can hear him unbuckling his armor before she starts screaming. >_<

well yeah that shit's heavy if he's going to glare at her menacingly for all eternity he probably shouldn't be carrying excess weight that's a lot of strain on a guy

:(
 

Black_Sun

Member
You are describing Tyrion as some of the ignorant smallfolks drinking the Lannister kool-aid would.

How do you read the books and boil down Tyrion Lannister to this description?

I'm pointing out his deeds and flaws that people like to skip over because it doesn't mesh with their idea of the Tyrion they knew at the beginning on book one. I know first impressions are ingrained on the brain and I think GRRM is intentionally playing with that by gradually getting some of our hero characters to do more and more despicable acts.

Like Daenerys is a literal mass murderer of children by our standards.

Besides nothing I said about Tyrion is wrong.
 

Cromwell

Banned
Tyrion starts out as a decent guy becoming an evil man. Tyrion is GRRM's Walter White.

He's even on a parallel arc to Jaime's villain to hero story where he goes from hero to villain.

Like seriously he feeds a singer to the poor.

He hits Shae because he thinks she's mocking him.

He rapes sex slaves.

His only ambition is to fuck Westeros and rape Cersei.

How is this a hero?

It's hard to have a discussion with you if you're determined to see the characters in ASoIaF as binary hero/villain archetypes. GRRM may have described them that way in some random interview in 1999 as a way to help people integrate into the series (I'm pretty sure this was before it became very popular), but I can almost guarantee he doesn't actually see them that way, and he most certainly doesn't with Tyrion. Just a couple of weeks ago he spelled this out in a talk with Stephen King, and I know at least a few times he's said Tyrion is his favorite character. He's also said a fucking LOT of stuff over the 20+ years he's been working on this series, so putting stock into anything except for what he's said recently seems silly.

The difference between Tyrion and Walter White is Tyrion ultimately has a good heart, whereas Walter White has a far blacker one though I'd stop short of calling him an evil villain or whatever.
 

finowns

Member
The thing is that Bloodraven most likely taught Euron before he knew what he was and once he realized that he discontinued his lessons.

If Brynden Rivers is the last greenseer then Bran isn't a greenseer or else he isn't the last. Anyways all three of them are greenseers. It's just that Brynden has realized his potential and Euron and Bran haven't.

Bran is interested in the Children of the Forest and the legends Beyond the Wall and Euron is interested in Valyrianand is trying to position himself as Valyria's heir even trying to get married to Daenerys and ride a dragon.

..Well I've heard crazier theories. If Euron starts looking through weirwood trees into the past I guess you'll be right, I really doubt it though.
 

TTG

Member
I caught a whiff of that too, yeah. So cliche, but that relationship has gone so much better than you'd expect for this show that I guess a monkey wrench of some sort has to come into it eventually.


I think she nips it in the bud, so to speak, in the same scene. I just thought since we were discussing suitors. Actually, Tyrion back in Westeros is going to be really interesting. For one, he and Sansa are still buds, right?
 

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
I don't know about the rest of you, but honestly, I'm getting really tired of reading about arguments regarding exclusively the books in this thread. There's a book thread to argue about plot points exclusive to the books. This thread is about the show, and exists so people who have read the books can talk about the show but with the occasional comparison or discussion drawing from book material. But if you want to argue about what is or isn't true with regards to the books exclusive, why do it here?
I concur. The thread has always has a problem with that but I feel it's only gotten worse the more the show deviates from the books.

It's kinda ridiculous that there is a long book only discussion happening here only hours after the show's season finale.
 

Black_Sun

Member
Huh...I haven't gotten that impression of him in the books at all. When was he a rapist? The only difference I see him in the book is that he never forgot about his first love. I recall him killing Shae simply cause she betrayed him, not necessarily because he was humiliated by her. Him killing his father made more sense in the book as well. He killed him for having his wife raped and sending her off to who knows where. I don't think he came off as any more arrogant or "douchy" in the books than in the show. If anything his actions of killing his father and hating people in general were more justified in the books than in the show.

No it was because he was humiliated by her. He's triggered once Shae calls him his giant of Lannister. It happens again with Penny and Tyrion almost murders her too just because an innocent response of hers reminds him of Shae. GRRM even says that killing Shae was an even blacker deed than killing Tywin because killing Tywin was more of a split second decision while killing Shae was slow and he could've stopped at any time.

Tyrion rapes a sex slave in Volantis. He feels disgusted himself about it afterwards realizing he just raped someone who has no will or ability to consent. He then rapes her again despite how wrong he feels about it.
 

Black_Sun

Member
It's hard to have a discussion with you if you're determined to see the characters in ASoIaF as binary hero/villain archetypes. GRRM may have described them that way in some random interview in 1999 as a way to help people integrate into the series (I'm pretty sure this was before it became very popular), but I can almost guarantee he doesn't actually see them that way, and he most certainly doesn't with Tyrion. Just a couple of weeks ago he spelled this out in a talk with Stephen King, and I know at least a few times he's said Tyrion is his favorite character. He's also said a fucking LOT of stuff over the 20+ years he's been working on this series, so putting stock into anything except for what he's said recently seems silly.

The difference between Tyrion and Walter White is Tyrion ultimately has a good heart, whereas Walter White has a far blacker one though I'd stop short of calling him an evil villain or whatever.

I don't know why you think that being villain disqualifies someone from being a person's favorite character.

As GRRM says they're nothing like a good villain.

All you have to do is look at how Tyrion's arc is constructed.

His arc in ASOS is about breaking Tyrion until he declares that he's Tywin writ small.

Tyrion can be a villain and be an empathetic person.

I think your view of what a villain is all or nothing when I'm not saying that at all.

Tyrion isn't a traditional hero or even an anti hero because he doesn't have heroic goals and isn't a particularly good person.

Tyrion's goals are villainous if anything. Rape Cersei and wreck Westeros.

Show Tyrion is a good man.
 

TTG

Member
I wonder if Arya goes to Winterfell for a sojourn before continuing down her list or not. People have been pointing out characters teleporting all night, so forgive me, but it really screws with how word gets around Westeros. The church blows up(don't know the official name) and Lady Olenna not only makes her way to Dorne immediately, but shows up in grieving attire. Meanwhile news of the Winterfell battle still needs to find its way down south from what I can tell, even though people in the north have had time to name a new king in the interim. Point is, when is Arya informed that Sansa and Jon are hanging out in Winterfell? Could be the next scene, could be 4 episodes in, who knows.
 

Black_Sun

Member
I think she nips it in the bud, so to speak, in the same scene. I just thought since we were discussing suitors. Actually, Tyrion back in Westeros is going to be really interesting. For one, he and Sansa are still buds, right?

Well no not really.

They were friends in the show for a couple episodes and then the Red Wedding nipped that in the bud.
 

Black_Sun

Member
Like I said.

Anyway, finale was underwhelming. Manderly "speech" was pathetic, was looking forward to that since the casting call.

Yes I completely believe that you read that in 3 minutes.

Anyways Manderly's speech was meh but Lyanna Mormont's was great until she brought up that the North Remembers. I cringed at that.
 

News Bot

Banned
Well no not really.

They were friends in the show for a couple episodes and then the Red Wedding nipped that in the bud.

It's not like she sympathized with him and helped him when he was Joffrey's cupbearer, or anything. She never blamed Tyrion for the Red Wedding.

Yes I completely believe that you read that in 3 minutes.

Anyways Manderly's speech was meh but Lyanna Mormont's was great until she brought up that North Remembers. I cringed at that.

I've read it before. It's reaching at its finest.
 

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
I wonder if Arya goes to Winterfell for a sojourn before continuing down her list or not. People have been pointing out characters teleporting all night, so forgive me, but it really screws with how word gets around Westeros. The church blows up(don't know the official name) and Lady Olenna not only makes her way to Dorne immediately, but shows up in grieving attire. Meanwhile news of the Winterfell battle still needs to find its way down south from what I can tell, even though people in the north have had time to name a new king in the interim. Point is, when is Arya informed that Sansa and Jon are hanging out in Winterfell? Could be the next scene, could be 4 episodes in, who knows.
The timelines of the various plots are pretty segmented at this point. By days, if not weeks.
 

Black_Sun

Member
It's not like she sympathized with him and helped him when he was Joffrey's cupbearer, or anything. She never blamed Tyrion for the Red Wedding.



I've read it before. It's reaching at its finest.

Er, you realize that made in myr's essay predicted the new Aeron Damphair chapter, right? Like he nailed Euron's character before anyone else did. Anyways I'll stop now and focus on the show.

-------------

I said that Sansa didn't really have an actual friendship with Tyrion after the Red Wedding. I didn't say that Sansa was indifferent or disliked him.

You don't need to be friends with someone to sympathize with them
 

Cromwell

Banned
I wonder if Arya goes to Winterfell for a sojourn before continuing down her list or not.

Arya sailed from Braavos to Westeros, infiltrated the Twins, killed the two Walder sons, baked and made them into a pie, served that pie to Walder and then killed him.

Arya makes the Assassin's Creed guy look like a bitch. She can go anywhere she wants now and do anything.
 

mf.luder

Member
I'm baffled he actually said that, though it was 1999. In every interview I've seen him in since GoT began he always points out how he tries to avoid the traditional villain/hero descriptors, and I think that's always been evident in his books. I'd like to see if he would still call Tyrion a villain, or to at least expand upon how he defines the word in the context of his work.



He was released from the Watch when he died.

This was the purpose of his death and resurrection. To end his vow.

He quit the Nights Watch.

Thank you for reminding me.
 

Black_Sun

Member
Arya sailed from Braavos to Westeros, infiltrated the Twins, killed the two Walder sons, baked and made them into a pie, served that pie to Walder and then killed him.

Arya makes the Assassin's Creed guy look like a bitch. She can go anywhere she wants now and do anything.

I need to see more.

Arya got shanked by the evil old lady from Snow White when she was on her guard to balance that out

Good offense? Bad defense?
 
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