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[Black_Sun]

Again, what does "king of the north" mean?

It's an honorary title to the person who leads the independent kingdom of the north.

They're not rebelling against the crown.

They are united against the whitewalkers, and Jon is the right man for the job. Not Bran. Not Sansa. Certainly not Littlefinger. Jon.

Robb Stark once said "Bran can't be lord of Winterfell before me." He has no contact with Jon Snow after that scene, so why would he suddenly choose Jon in the line of succession. Show Robb is still holding out hope that Bran and Rickon made it out, as is Catelyn. That's my interpretation anyway.

This season, the northerners have been stubborn in their refusal to support Jon. They call him a bastard. They say he's a deserter. All the problems you are describing were addressed. Now, at this time after Jon led the attack against the Boltons, they finally pay him the honor of a title that just amounts to "leader", which is what he is.

They are rebelling against the crown. That's what LF means when he says the Vale has declared for the North.

Like do you think Cersei is okay with the Starks taking over the Norh again?

In fact calling him the King in the North is acknowledging that the highest power in the north is Jon not whoever sits the iron throne

 

[Latvian Hitman]

I thought Dany was immune in the books.

Nope. The scene with the pyre and the birth of the dragons is described by Martin himself as a one-off magical event. Not to be taken as a permanent immunity to fire:

She actually got burned in Daznak's Pit when she tried to tame Drogon. Though she does seem to be more tolerant than others.

Also, this.

 

[Brakke]

So why isn't Jon immune to fire?

Is he immune now that he's a zombie?

Zombies are emphatically not immune to fire, if that's even what Jon is.

The real answer to this is that the fire immunity thing wasn't really thought out by either GRR or D&D. GRR says Dany's miracle at the pyre was a one time only thing, which is dumb; D&D kept flirting with fire immunity but didn't commit to it until recently.

Do we actually know that he's not immune to fire though?

Nah in the book when she lands in the mountains after the Pit she's all blistered and burned and shit. Also the evidence is just thinner in the book, she didn't burn a building down around her. Even in the show it was sort of unclear until the coup at Vaes Dothrak.

 

[Last Hearth]

Again, what does "king of the north" mean?

It's an honorary title to the person who leads the independent kingdom of the north.

They're not rebelling against the crown.

They are united against the whitewalkers, and Jon is the right man for the job. Not Bran. Not Sansa. Certainly not Littlefinger. Jon.

Robb Stark once said "Bran can't be lord of Winterfell before me." He has no contact with Jon Snow after that scene, so why would he suddenly choose Jon in the line of succession. Show Robb is still holding out hope that Bran and Rickon made it out, as is Catelyn. That's my interpretation anyway.

This season, the northerners have been stubborn in their refusal to support Jon. They call him a bastard. They say he's a deserter. All the problems you are describing were addressed. Now, at this time after Jon led the attack against the Boltons, they finally pay him the honor of a title that just amounts to "leader", which is what he is.

That's not what they said, they said it in context of their loyalty to House Stark. Lyanna Mormont talks about no king but king in the north whose name is Stark, Glover and Manderly talks about being loyal to the Starks for "a thousand years". It's not about electing a leader, it's about House Stark being the rightful King of the North. They are announcing Jon as the head of House Stark, which he isn't. Sansa is as far as they know, and Bran is if they knew he were alive, but not Jon.

 

[duckroll]

Lol. The King in the North is absolutely a rebellious title. When the kingdom was at peace and Ned and Robert were best buddies, no one went around calling Ned the King in the North. It just wouldn't seem proper. It's an old traditional title which gets brought out when the North no longer sides with the crown.

 

[jmood88]

This is completely accurate.

No not really actually. People don't remember Ned Stark's name a lot of the time.

They should've reminded people that this was Ned Stark they were watching

Even before I started reading the books and watching the show without looking at my phone every 5 minutes, Ned was one of the few names I remembered and I'm pretty sure that it's the same for most people who have any kind of investment in the show. I certainly haven't come across anyone who didn't remember him.

 

[iShouldGoPro]

Lol. The King in the North is absolutely a rebellious title. When the kingdom was at peace and Ned and Robert were best buddies, no one went around calling Ned the King in the North. It just wouldn't seem proper. It's an old traditional title which gets brought out when the North no longer sides with the crown.

Yeah, they would consider themselves a "warden" if they wanted to be included with the rest of Westeros.

 

[dabig2]

He was supposed to be very handsome, very regal, strong, smart, poetic, a good singer, etc. He was also naturally talented at whatever he put his mind to, so when he started practicing how to fight, he got good at it. Loved by the people, loved by all young maidens, he was a regular Gary Stu.

Yeah, it's why I particularly loved that Robert hammertimed this fairy tale bullshit to oblivion. "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

 

[demosthenes]

Lol. The King in the North is absolutely a rebellious title. When the kingdom was at peace and Ned and Robert were best buddies, no one went around calling Ned the King in the North. It just wouldn't seem proper. It's an old traditional title which gets brought out when the North no longer sides with the crown.

This.

The only kingdom that still had 'titles' was Dorne and that was because they were brought into the fold through marriage and were allowed to keep a lot of their customs.

 

[InfiniteBento]

Does Cersei's army only consist of what is in King's Landing?

Her chunk of land seems so small and insignificant in comparison to everyone else's plot of land + armies.

 

[Tuck]

How are the non-book readers you know interpreting Jon's parentage? I have encountered a few confused people today.

I think the way they handled it was pretty perfect, though to be fair, I (like many others familiar with the lore) went in already suspecting the reveal.

 

[Speevy]

They are rebelling against the crown. That's what LF means when he says the Vale has declared for the North.

Like do you think Cersei is okay with the Starks taking over the Norh again?

In fact calling him the King in the North is acknowledging that the highest power in the north is Jon not whoever sits the iron throne

I disagree.

Robb told Joffrey to return his sisters and declare the north a free and independent kingdom or he will litter the south with Lannister dead.

Jon will probably tell Cersei that he needs her help and does not wish to fight the crown.

Of course she will try to kill Jon because she's insane at this point in the story, but Jon's intentions are not to march on the capital.

Also, with Tommen dead, there is no rightful ruler of King's Landing, so Jon or a sack of potatoes has as much right to the throne as Cersei Lannister.

 

[Crisco]

The North ceased to be an independent kingdom because of Aegon's dragons, it's the only way they could have been conquered anyway. The North is like Russia, no conventional force will ever successfully take and hold it for long (as we saw on the show). What will be interesting is if Dany asks Jon to bend the knee or allows the North to remain independent.

 

[wesleyshark]

I had to explain to a coworker what the Tower of Joy scene meant. She thought that Lyanna and Ned had the child...........

She wasn't joking. Had to explain that the child was not Ned's lol.

 

[Gigglepoo]

This is completely accurate.

No not really actually. People don't remember Ned Stark's name a lot of the time.

They should've reminded people that this was Ned Stark they were watching

I guess we know why the show has to be so straight forward and obvious most of the time. We say D&D are aiming for the lowest common denominator and should have more respect for their audience, but when they don't spell things out, people are confused.

I had to explain to a coworker what the Tower of Joy scene meant. She thought that Lyanna and Ned had the child...........

She wasn't joking. Had to explain that the child was not Ned's lol.

She thought the most honorable person in Westeros fucked his sister?

 

[Speevy]

Lol. The King in the North is absolutely a rebellious title. When the kingdom was at peace and Ned and Robert were best buddies, no one went around calling Ned the King in the North. It just wouldn't seem proper. It's an old traditional title which gets brought out when the North no longer sides with the crown.

It doesn't seem like any house sides with the crown under present circumstances.

I'm not arguing about the traditional meaning of king in the north.

I'm saying that Jon isn't marching any armies and killing Lannisters.

 

[CloudWolf]

It wouldn't be surprising, he's not full Targaryen.
It would make sense if he could now, since R'hllor has probably given him the gift of flame

I don't think the show will actually go out of their way to show that R'hllor is a legit god. I think that if Melisandre and Thoros were followers of the Seven, but the same otherwise, they would also be able to summon visions and bring people back. They're both sorcerers who believe they're channeling the powers of a god, while in fact they probably learned those skills in Asshai. I know for a fact that GRRM has said that he will never reveal if any of the gods are real nor use a Deus Ex Machina type situation where divine intervention saves the day.

 

[duckroll]

It doesn't seem like any house sides with the crown under present circumstances.

I'm not arguing about the traditional meaning of king in the north.

I'm saying that Jon isn't marching any armies and killing Lannisters.

That's not their priority at the moment, no. But when word comes of Frey's demise, they'll probably begin to reclaim lost territory along the Riverlands and what not. There's little reason for them to march down to King's Landing as it is. And by the time they even consider it, I doubt there'll be a King's Landing left. Lolololol.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

The North ceased to be an independent kingdom because of Aegon's dragons, it's the only way they could have been conquered anyway. The North is like Russia, no conventional force will ever successfully take and hold it for long (as we saw on the show). What will be interesting is if Dany asks Jon to bend the knee or allows the North to remain independent.

I'm kinda' thinking that by the time Dany makes it to the North, she's going to be a little bit too preoccupied with this guy:

to be worrying about who's bending what knee to her and what not.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Does Cersei's army only consist of what is in King's Landing?

Her chunk of land seems so small and insignificant in comparison to everyone else's plot of land + armies.

Thats the point, in Medieval times a king was only as strong as the armies his allied lords could raise for him. Having alienated everyone but the Lannisters (and given Jamies reaction to her, soon them as well) Cersei is not going to be left with much of an army when Danny comes knocking.

 

[hipsterpants]

honestly, the "last time on game of thrones" segment showed the scene where Sansa stated that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. they really couldn't have made it more obvious without completely ruining the scene.

a fair criticism would be that they never really spent enough time talking about Rhaegar. instead of talking about Dany's father's madness for the hundredth time they could have taken some time to mention her brother.

 

[LifEndz]

That's not what they said, they said it in context of their loyalty to House Stark. Lyanna Mormont talks about no king but king in the north whose name is Stark, Glover and Manderly talks about being loyal to the Starks for "a thousand years". It's not about electing a leader, it's about House Stark being the rightful King of the North. They are announcing Jon as the head of House Stark, which he isn't. Sansa is as far as they know, and Bran is if they knew he were alive, but not Jon.

Wait.....what? It's absolutely open rebellion against the crown, not just an affirmation of loyalty to House Stark.

 

[Moff]

Does Cersei's army only consist of what is in King's Landing?

Her chunk of land seems so small and insignificant in comparison to everyone else's plot of land + armies.

well if we believe Jaime the Lannisters are still a force that is feared and capable, at least more than the Freys.

 

[Gigglepoo]

a fair criticism would be that they never really spent enough time talking about Rhaegar. instead of talking about Dany's father's madness for the hundredth time they could have taken some time to mention her brother.

Selmy and Littlefinger talked about Rhaegar last season. Sure, they could have spent this season talking about him too, but I think it's alright to plant the seeds and hope something grows. It's not the writers fault when the soil is barren.

 

[InfiniteBento]

Thats the point, in Medieval times a king was only as strong as the armies his allied lords could raise for him. Having alienated everyone but the Lannisters (and given Jamies reaction to her, soon them as well) Cersei is not going to be left with much of an army when Danny comes knocking.

I figured as much. Its incredibly ironic how she fought so hard for this moment, loses all of her children in the process, her brother will view her as insane and despise her, and then Dany will come along to destroy her easily. She's about to get rekt and has no idea.

 

[Violet_0]

quick question, how are the White Walkers supposed to fight (airborne) dragons? As far as we know they don't have archers or projectile weapons, so they pretty much have to summon a blizzard or use some other magic tricks, right?

 

[wesleyshark]

Selmy and Littlefinger talked about Rhaegar last season. Sure, they could have spent this season talking about him too, but I think it's alright to plant the seeds and hope something grows. It's not the writers fault when the soil is barren.

Lol well said

 

[NoTacos]

The North ceased to be an independent kingdom because of Aegon's dragons, it's the only way they could have been conquered anyway. The North is like Russia, no conventional force will ever successfully take and hold it for long (as we saw on the show). What will be interesting is if Dany asks Jon to bend the knee or allows the North to remain independent.

If Jon asks nicely, she'll probably give it to him. After all, that's what happened with Theon and Yara (on the condition their states remain allies and they support her crown).

I don't think Jon is beneath making friends if it helps him defend the coming Winter.

 

[MegaSackman]

Probably's been discussed but who's the Night King? I refuse to think that's some random guy like the show want us make to believe, could it be a Targaeryan too?

 

[Gigglepoo]

quick question, how are the White Walkers supposed to fight (airborne) dragons? As far as we know they don't have archers or projectile weapons, so they pretty much have to summon a blizzard or use some other magic tricks, right?

Ice Dragons!!!!!!!!!

Probably's been discussed but who's the Night King? I refuse to think that's some random guy like the show want us make to believe, could it be a Targaeryan too?

Way better chance that dude was a Stark considering that transformation scene took place in the North and everything in the North revolves around the Starks.

I don't think Jon is beneath making friends if it helps him defend the coming Winter.

"Making friends" is why Jon is important. His peace with the Wildings showed that it's his diplomacy (not his smarts...) that will help save the day. Second pact with White Walkers, coming up!

 

[Daemul]

Rhaegar has only been talked about for like a grand total of 5 mins in 6 seasons, don't be surprised that show only watchers haven't made the connection.

 

[Moff]

honestly, the "last time on game of thrones" segment showed the scene where Sansa stated that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. they really couldn't have made it more obvious without completely ruining the scene.

a fair criticism would be that they never really spent enough time talking about Rhaegar. instead of talking about Dany's father's madness for the hundredth time they could have taken some time to mention her brother.

it's a shame we never got a flashback for rhaegar
speaking of which, we didn't get the flashback from the scene in the trialer where Jaime stabs Aerys Ii either, it was not in that short dream Bran had in one of the earlier episodes.

I'm pretty certain we will get a prequel season

 

[Freshmaker]

honestly, the "last time on game of thrones" segment showed the scene where Sansa stated that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. they really couldn't have made it more obvious without completely ruining the scene.

a fair criticism would be that they never really spent enough time talking about Rhaegar. instead of talking about Dany's father's madness for the hundredth time they could have taken some time to mention her brother.

Could've just not muted her saying Jon's name and saying who the father was. That just seemed stupidly cute on D&D's part.

Probably's been discussed but who's the Night King? I refuse to think that's some random guy like the show want us make to believe, could it be a Targaeryan too?

What would the night king being a Targ matter? Given the location, that seems kinda unlikely since Targs only really came to Westeros in the last 300 years. More likely a Stark ancestor if you really must have a bloodline link tossed in there somewhere.

 

[Kallor]

quick question, how are the White Walkers supposed to fight (airborne) dragons? As far as we know they don't have archers or projectile weapons, so they pretty much have to summon a blizzard or use some other magic tricks, right?

Giant Ice Spider webs dude. Ice Spiders gon' rek shit.

 

[Crisco]

Probably's been discussed but who's the Night King? I refuse to think that's some random guy like the show want us make to believe, could it be a Targaeryan too?

A former member of the Night's Watch and likely a Stark. There's a theory from way back stipulating that the words "Winter is coming" wasn't some warning about snow and cold temperature, but rather a threat implying a connection between the Starks and White Walkers.

 

[biosnake20]

Holy shit Linda.

She could not accept Jon as king of the north.

If someone had just defeated the Boltons for me, I'd declare them the king of the damn world.

The saltiness of her review was fantastic.

 

[mantidor]

I disagree.

Robb told Joffrey to return his sisters and declare the north a free and independent kingdom or he will litter the south with Lannister dead.

Jon will probably tell Cersei that he needs her help and does not wish to fight the crown.

Of course she will try to kill Jon because she's insane at this point in the story, but Jon's intentions are not to march on the capital.

Also, with Tommen dead, there is no rightful ruler of King's Landing, so Jon or a sack of potatoes has as much right to the throne as Cersei Lannister.

After all she did to Sansa? I don't see it. And Cersei still wants Sansa's head, there's going to be conflict for sure.

 

[Violet_0]

Ice Dragons!!!!!!!!!

Giant Ice Spider webs dude. Ice Spiders gon' rek shit.

that reminds me too much of WoW

 

[duckroll]

Selmy and Littlefinger talked about Rhaegar last season. Sure, they could have spent this season talking about him too, but I think it's alright to plant the seeds and hope something grows. It's not the writers fault when the soil is barren.

Well, technically this Tower of Joy reveal was just a teaser information scene of sorts. Bran saw Jon being born. He knows that he belongs to Lyanna and not Ned. But he doesn't know any of the actual context, nor has he done anything with this information. That will be for next season, and I'm pretty sure that leading up to Bran using that information in any way, we will suddenly be lambasted with tons of Rhaegar anecdotes.

Dany's journey will probably have her talking with Varys and Tyrion to learn more about Westeros history and her family. And suddenly Rhaegar and the spark the started the war will be hammered into the audience well and good just before it becomes important. Sam will probably be learning a lot at the Citadel, and I would not be surprised if he came across the same legends and prophecies which Rhaegar did, adding another piece of the puzzle for the audience to digest. Stuff like that.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Rhaegar has only been talked about for like a grand total of 5 mins in 6 seasons, don't be surprised that show only watchers haven't made the connection.

He was almost always mentioned in relation to Lyanna though -- even in the "Previous On" in this episode. People who think that was Ned and Lyanna's baby aren't paying attention.

 

[wesleyshark]

Well, technically this Tower of Joy reveal was just a teaser information scene of sorts. Bran saw Jon being born. He knows that he belongs to Lyanna and not Ned. But he doesn't know any of the actual context, nor has he done anything with this information. That will be for next season, and I'm pretty sure that leading up to Bran using that information in any way, we will suddenly be lambasted with tons of Rhaegar anecdotes.

Dany's journey will probably have her talking with Varys and Tyrion to learn more about Westeros history and her family. And suddenly Rhaegar and the spark the started the war will be hammered into the audience well and good just before it becomes important. Sam will probably be learning a lot at the Citadel, and I would not be surprised if he came across the same legends and prophecies which Rhaegar did, adding another piece of the puzzle for the audience to digest. Stuff like that.

I'm beyond excited for Sam being in Oldtown... So much potential there.

 

[MegaSackman]

A former member of the Night's Watch and likely a Stark. There's a theory from way back stipulating that the words "Winter is coming" wasn't some warning about snow and cold temperature, but rather a threat implying a connection between the Starks and White Walkers.

Ok neat, sounds plausible, I hope the show picks up on that because it was pretty dissapointing what they showed.

 

[LifEndz]

The North ceased to be an independent kingdom because of Aegon's dragons, it's the only way they could have been conquered anyway. The North is like Russia, no conventional force will ever successfully take and hold it for long (as we saw on the show). What will be interesting is if Dany asks Jon to bend the knee or allows the North to remain independent.

The foreshadowing to her needing to make an alliance through marriage leads me to think she won't have to ask Jon anything, because he'll be her King and she'll be his Queen. Sansa will probably remain at Winterfell as Wardenese of the north (Unless Bran decides he can be the tree master at home and not in a cave) and Jon will ride south with Dany and Tyrion to claim her throne. The Dragon has three heads and all that.

 

[jett]

I mean, I always though the Kingsguard being there was proof of Rhaegar and Lyanna's marriage. They wouldn't be defending a prince's mistress and his bastard, especially after he died.

That makes a good deal of sense.

They could just be following their king's last orders though.

 

[Speevy]

The first scene of this episode reminded me how much better this show would be with good music

Spoiler

and of course better writing

Instead of playing the same 3 or 4 house themes after every scene, actually have different composers make some cool music for all kinds of scenes.

 

[CloudWolf]

The first scene of this episode reminded me how much better this show would be with good music

Spoiler

and of course better writing

It was actually the first time I noticed the music since season 3's Rains of Castamere. Overall GoT's soundtrack is very forgettable IMO.

 

[Last Hearth]

Wait.....what? It's absolutely open rebellion against the crown, not just an affirmation of loyalty to House Stark.

It's both, it's an assertion of Northern independence on the basis that House Stark is the rightful ruler of the North.

 

[Dai101]

I had to explain to a coworker what the Tower of Joy scene meant. She thought that Lyanna and Ned had the child...........

She wasn't joking. Had to explain that the child was not Ned's lol.

Are people today fucking goldfishes? LMAO.....

Thats the point, in Medieval times a king was only as strong as the armies his allied lords could raise for him. Having alienated everyone but the Lannisters (and given Jamies reaction to her, soon them as well) Cersei is not going to be left with much of an army when Danny comes knocking.

Also let's remember that the last Lannister of Casterly Rock died there too (Kevan). I don't see them pretty happy with that.

Selmy and Littlefinger talked about Rhaegar last season. Sure, they could have spent this season talking about him too, but I think it's alright to plant the seeds and hope something grows. It's not the writers fault when the soil is barren.

Perfectly put.

 

[TheContact]

Did anyone else burst out laughing when they saw Varys standing behind Dany on the ship? After Littlefingers teleportation feats I should have been prepared for that, but I just did not see it coming.

There's a lot of flaws in this episode (that for the most part go unnoticed) but this is not one of them. GoT passage of time is not linear and defines no clear timelines for events. You saw Dorne ships on that fleet with Dany so it makes sense Varys is with them. It's not like she left the day after Tyrion became hand of the King. In fact, it's ambiguous.

 

[Black_Sun]

Zombies are emphatically not immune to fire, if that's even what Jon is.

The real answer to this is that the fire immunity thing wasn't really thought out by either GRR or D&D. GRR says Dany's miracle at the pyre was a one time only thing, which is dumb; D&D kept flirting with fire immunity but didn't commit to it until recently.



Nah in the book when she lands in the mountains after the Pit she's all blistered and burned and shit. Also the evidence is just thinner in the book, she didn't burn a building down around her. Even in the show it was sort of unclear until the coup at Vaes Dothrak.

What's dumb about it? It's an immunity 'caused by either MMD's spell or the sacrifice she made for a magical event to happen (birth of dragons and protecting her from death)