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[Apt101]

I added an edit to my post, btw.

And believe me, I'm trying to understand the actions of characters myself. But in the case of this (and the Martell murders), I see nothing but stupidity.
Again - pragmatism goes only so far. The desire for revenge only goes so far. If Karstark truly was a pragmatic leader, he'd immediately plot to take out Ramsay. He's not a reliable ally. He has proven to turn on his own father out of jealousy. In front of several witnesses whose loyalty aren't even sure. You don't have to be smart to figure out Ramsay is gonna fuck you and your lands up if you don't get rid of him ASAP.

Well it's hard for to debate this from the perspective of the show compared to the books. In the books Ramsay isn't anywhere near this position and everyone seems to think of him as nothing more than a wild dog. A torturer who is bizarre enough to show his handiwork off like some kind of trophy, during a formal dinner no less (when he parades Reek out). But in the show he does seem to embrace his father's motto, something like "a quiet people, a peaceful land"? I probably butchered that quote. But anyways, most of the Northern lords in the show don't appear to be privy to his depravity. And those who do, like Roose himself, seem to turn a blind eye to it because it's just more of Boltons being Boltons.

As far as this show Karstark is concerned: what choice does he have? He's a leader of bannermen. If he even made it outside of Winterfell alive, it's not he can summon other houses to his aide against the Warden of the North.

 

[Eidan]

Pretty pissed about that ending. Just poor storytelling doing the "leave the room, wake up" cliche. Too easy. I was hoping he'd wake up on/after the pyre.

That's not poor storytelling at all.

 

[munchie64]

I'd love to see them go an episode without killing anyone. It's just lazy and predictable now.

But then there'd be no beautiful death illustrations!

 

[jett]

In the books

Spoiler

Ned was 20

at the time. I haven't seen the preview but as long as he looks young adult-ish it's fine.

Spoiler

But this is not the books. In the show Ned Stark was played by a 50 year-old man. Tower of Joy Ned should look around 35.

I think there's a major difference between resolving it when it makes sense and dragging it out and driving up production costs. It's not important enough to drag out for 3 seasons but works when you cram all the events into a single season.

You can justify it that way I guess, but I don't believe that for a second. Then there's the whole Dorne stuff which is a royal waste of time. You can't play that card now, as those events bear zero resemblance to anything that has happened in the books and will obviously bear sub-zero resemblance to anything that further transpires.

 

[Kalentan]

That's not poor storytelling at all.

I think sometimes people forget that cliches are there for a reason. Falling on a cliche doesn't mean something is bad.

 

[Brakke]

BTW can someone revive Roose Bolton too? He was the coolest character in the show until this episode.
Now that honor belongs to Jaime.

Yeah I like where Jaime is right now. He's sort of teetering between Kingslayer and Lord Commander, he's not really comfortable in either role yet. I hope he commits to one or the other soon.

No need. Berric Dondarrion was cleaved in half basically--cut from the collar bone to the belly button essentially--and all they really did was bind him loosely and he was good to go. It's implied as long as the wounds aren't too crazy--missing an arm here!--that they naturally heal, and Jon was just stabbed a bunch of times.

I know I'm just clowning. It was just kind of funny that Mel had squeezed some pooled blood out of his wound while cleaning him just moments before he revived.

 

[Eidan]

Not as much as people bringing up book whining whenever someone has a criticism.

Haha, nah. Book whining definitely takes the cake.

 

[Gigglepoo]

The Hodor scene was great, too. The inconsistency is maddening!

That's not poor storytelling at all.

It's a cliche we've seen a million times.

 

[kirblar]

Kinda surprised Arya's cat stuff has been MIA thus far, given it's a setup for the Ghost rez.

 

[Massa]

I'm well aware why the Karstarks are pissed, the guy even mentions that outright during their conversation, and it's shown in the preview. I'm not daft. But revenge against the Starks or not - would you really want that guy lead the charge? Would you really want that guy to be your liege lord, the man you answer to, especially considering that right now the Boltons are spent and overextended, and Winterfell is still in reparations, thus very easy to take? And to top it off, the Boltons have made themselves an enemy of the Iron Throne by marrying Sansa to Ramsay. And as icing on the cake, Ramsay wants to attack the specifically neutral Night's Watch, based on nothing more but an assumption, which should be an insane outrage to the Karstarks, even if a Stark bastard is Lord Commander.

My point is, ruthless and treacherous or not, you can't just go around and murder anyone you like if you are to be the leader of a noble house, especially one in a massively powerful position such as Warden of the North. Or rather if you do, make damn sure nobody fucking sees it.
Joffrey was ruthless too, and even he was a lot smarter about his blatant attempts at the lives of people he didn't like than Ramsay. The show makes Ramsay appear to be a blathering, drooling fool who has absolutely no understanding of how power works.

As with the Martell murders, there should be a massive political fallout - but unlike a civil war breaking out in the North, this right here should lead to a completely united North, standing together in order to take back Winterfell and install either Sansa as a puppet, or just find a new Warden of the North.

In other words, I'm just sick of nobody having any direct consequences for the blatant disregard of political dynamics by just murdering liege lords and family members. Everyone there sees them, but no one gives a single fuck. I know that the world of GoT is brutal and unforgiving, but there's being brutal and unforgiving, and being just downright daft and being brutal for the sake of brutality. Pragmatism only goes so far, even in this universe. I would think Joffrey amply displayed that.

I know Ramsay will get a reckoning, but I believe that this reckoning will not happen by him getting betrayed by his own people and allies. It will happen by a relief force made of Jon and the Wildlings and probably the soldiers of the Vale.

Roose did openly kill Robb in the first place, which is what will ultimately lead to the Bolton's downfall in a series of intricate plot points involving houses and characters that the show absolutely didn't have time to do. So instead they're passing it over to Ramsay, who will lead them to their fate by being Ramsay.

Also Karstark didn't have much of a choice there. Realizing that Ramsay is stupid and insane and playing along, possibly plotting to take over the North themselves, was the best course of action after thinking "wtf Ramsay!".

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Haha, nah. Book whining definitely takes the cake.

You're in the book thread. People are going to compare the show to the book, and like most adaptations it compares unfavorably. Deal with it. This thread is not intended to be a circle jerk.

 

[Jarmel]

So is Jon going to take the Stark name or the Targaryen name?

Or are they going to save Jon's actual birthname for a later time?

 

[Kusagari]

Ramsay is by far the worst thing about the show and he needs to go now.

Unfortunately, D&D clearly love writing him and his edginess.

 

[Brakke]

Some nice book nods in this episode, too. Asha bemoaning their pinecone booty, Manderley getting name-checked.

 

[Massa]

You're in the book thread. People are going to compare the show to the book, and like most adaptations it compares unfavorably. Deal with it. This thread is not intended to be a circle jerk.

And when those comparisons are unfair, poor and sound like whining, people will call them out on it.

 

[Brakke]

So is Jon going to take the Stark name or the Targaryen name?

Or are they going to save Jon's actual birthname for a later time?

Why would he take any name? He's already rejected Stark when Stannis offered it. Jon's beyond names.

 

[Gigglepoo]

That's what happens when you take material that's not written for TV and put on TV, and also tell a writer "oh and by the way also you have 8 months to write your way out of situations that that guy's been struggling with for for 5 years". If this stuff really bothers you then you should reconsider watching the show in the first place, it's only going to spoil the books and make you angry.

Eight months? Dance came out in 2011. I'm stunned the best they could think of in all that time was "what if everyone leaves the room and then he wakes up?"

 

[Eidan]

You're in the book thread. People are going to compare the show to the book, and like most adaptations it compares unfavorably. Deal with it. This thread is not intended to be a circle jerk.

Haha, this thread has never been a circle jerk, I know. But it is getting interesting seeing the show get shat on in comparison to the books, when there aren't even books to compare it to anymore. Season 7 will be interesting when it's just book readers in here assuring themselves that the books will be so, so much better.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

Kinda surprised Arya's cat stuff has been MIA thus far, given it's a setup for the Ghost rez.

They're probably just going to continue to have Bran be the only Stark warg.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

And when those comparisons are unfair, poor and sound like whining, people will call them out on it.

Ok?

 

[Gigglepoo]

Haha, this thread has never been a circle jerk, I know. But it is getting interesting seeing the show get shat on in comparison to the books, when there aren't even books to compare it to anymore. Season 7 will be interesting when it's just book readers in here assuring themselves that the books will be so, so much better.

The books were better when it was a straight adaption so....

 

[Massa]

Eight months? Dance came out in 2011. I'm stunned the best they could think of in all that time was "what if everyone leaves the room and then he wakes up?"

They've been occupied with other things since 2011, a TV show I hear.

 

[Jarmel]

Why would he take any name? He's already rejected Stark when Stannis offered it. Jon's beyond names.

To unify the banners.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Anyone else surprised that Bran is leaving the cave? I just assumed he'd stay there forever, take over Bloodraven's place on the werewood throne. I'm really curious to see where he goes.

They've been occupied with other things since 2011, a TV show I hear.

Yeah. And they didn't plan ahead at all? Weird way to tell a story.

 

[Massa]

The important thing about the Jon scene is that it opens the way for LSH in episode 3.

Yeah. And they didn't plan ahead at all? Weird way to tell a story.

GRRM doesn't plan ahead either, it's not that weird.

 

[Apt101]

It does seem like it's going to be another rushed line at the Tower of Joy ("Now it beings...."). In the books Dayne draws Dawn and displays it so everyone sees the milkglass full of stars, recites his line, then Ned retorts. "No.....now it ends". It's probably not going down that way. The preview looks like a PG-13 action movie rendition of the scene.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Anyone else surprised that Bran is leaving the cave? I just assumed he'd stay there forever, take over Bloodraven's place on the werewood throne. I'm really curious to see where he goes.



Yeah. And they didn't plan ahead at all? Weird way to tell a story.

I did expect him to become a tree or something. Not sure what all he can do on the outside, but we'll see I guess.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Spoiler

But this is not the books. In the show Ned Stark was played by a 50 year-old man. Tower of Joy Ned should look around 35.

The age of the actor is kind of irrelevant (Maisie Williams) at this point.

Spoiler

I figured Ned Stark was supposed to be in his early 40's during GoT, but that he was more weathered than most people. I mean, Ned only looked about a decade younger than Tywin, but Tywin was supposed to have a full 20+ years on him. They really played up how harsh the North was, so I guess the explanation was that the tough environment aged them faster.

 

[Eidan]

The books were better when it was a straight adaption so....

A perfectly fair opinion. But over the years I've always found a lot of the criticisms levied against the show have been simple complaints about the lack of 1:1 adaptation, which had always been...shallow to me. It's interesting seeing those same kind of criticisms continue when there isn't even a source material to hold up as a superior example. But hey, that's passionate fan bases for you.

 

[munchie64]

The important thing about the Jon scene is that it opens the way for LSH in episode 3.

Pre show trailer spoilers

Spoiler

Brienne's going to the Riverlands

B E L I E V E

 

[Gigglepoo]

Did anyone miss Dany? Her story hadn't been great since Season 1 for me so I kind of like when she's absent. This was one of the better episodes for Mereen. Really great scenes. Love those dragons.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

I'm not a huge fan of Stonehart but I feel like she becomes more important addition now that Jon is resurrected. You need the other side of the coin to show that you can't just call in da red priests, go raising the dead and all will be dandy. She also would make a interesting villain since she is a Stark.

 

[neurosisxeno]

She also would make a interesting villain since she is a Stark.

I mean, she's technically a Tully, but she married into the Stark family. Jon is more of a Stark than she is by blood.

 

[Operations]

This episode made me realize my memory is fried beyond repair. Having read the books years ago and watching the episodes without doing a recap is leading my brain to create a patchwork monstrosity of disordered events.

I can't recall for the life of me Brienne meeting Sansa before and when Theon lamented killing Ser Rodrick I was like WTF he was killed by Ramsay. I actually had to look it up in GoT Wiki to read how show Theon beheaded Ser Rodrick.

I'm old and useless.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Pre show trailer spoilers

Spoiler

Brienne's going to the Riverlands

B E L I E V E

Speculation

Spoiler

if brienne goes to the riverlands, I think it's likely that Sansa will take Lady Stoneheart role as has been heavily rumored.

 

[TripOpt55]

That was a very good episode. The resurrection did feel a bit perfunctory, but I think it is just because I have been expecting it for so long I guess. I'm just excited he is back and we can see where he goes from here. This is the more interesting part.

The Roose death deserved a bit more time devoted to it I guess. Seems like they are trying to fasttrack some stuff.

I really liked the Sansa/Theon and Jaime/Sparrow conversations. The Bran flashback scene was nice too. Excited to get more flashbacks!

Much better outing than the first. Can't wait to see next week's episode.

 

[Pkaz01]

Kinda surprised Arya's cat stuff has been MIA thus far, given it's a setup for the Ghost rez.

I think they have done a poor job of keeping Arya's plot relevant and interesting. Right now its like watching a boring training montage. Everyone knows she is getting her sight back and probably leaving the Faceless Men, at least in the books there was the warg connection with Nymeria and the Faceless Men's involvement in the Citadel to keep us interested. Right now its been a season and 2 episodes of fuckery with vague cryptic explanations of what the Facelessmen are all about. Have we even heard their origin story yet?

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Did anyone miss Dany? Her story hadn't been great since Season 1 for me so I kind of like when she's absent. This was one of the better episodes for Mereen. Really great scenes. Love those dragons.

Dany has always been the weak link for me in the show, and the book for that matter. On rereads I have come to appreciate her chapters in the books a bit more, but I've never really warmed to her character. And also her chapters in ADWD were misery to read for the most part. I did appreciate the show breezing through that material, even if their version was pretty stupid and comical.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Book readers have expected Jon's resurrection for years so it's pretty damn hard to make that scene tense.They drew it out long enough that I was holding my breath a bit and wondering if they would hold it off for another episode.

 

[Kickz]

Just finished the ep and key things;

-Ramsay has fucking surpassed the other dead Cersie child/king as the worst thing ever

-The bit with Tyrion feeding the pet dragons was lame, felt forced to give screen time

-The red witch reviving John after a cliched talk was also underwhelming


Still liked the ep overall, but you can tell writing is deteriorating rapidly

 

[neurosisxeno]

I actually had to look it up in GoT Wiki to read how show Theon beheaded Ser Rodrick.

It was an important scene actually. It was supposed to act as a juxtaposition between Theon and Robb Stark. Robb was able to take Rickard Karstark's head off despite not wanting to with 1 clean swing, but Theon had to hack at Rodrick's neck like 3-4 times to get it off, and almost throws up afterward. It's an allegory for the fact that Theon would always be the lesser man.

 

[Tiktaalik]

So why was Jon killed? Everyone else who was resurrected came back changed but Jon won't be changed? So what was the point of killing him?

Jon is killed to release him from his Night Watch vows.

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.

My prediction would be that he is not Lord Commander after this point.

 

[Apt101]

Dany has always been the weak link for me in the show, and the book for that matter. On rereads I have come to appreciate her chapters in the books a bit more, but I've never really warmed to her character. And also her chapters in ADWD were misery to read for the most part. I did appreciate the show breezing through that material, even if their version was pretty stupid and comical.

It feels like arrested development. GRRM was never ready to move her forward in a meaningful way after she cracked the eggs, so he led her around into numerous pointless endeavors. Then she ends up coming full circle and still goes nowhere. I hope she actually moves forward this season.

 

[timetokill]

Did anyone miss Dany? Her story hadn't been great since Season 1 for me so I kind of like when she's absent. This was one of the better episodes for Mereen. Really great scenes. Love those dragons.

Everything is better when Dany is absent.

 

[Operations]

It was an important scene actually. It was supposed to act as a juxtaposition between Theon and Robb Stark. Robb was able to take Rickard Karstark's head off despite not wanting to with 1 clean swing, but Theon had to hack at Rodrick's neck like 3-4 times to get it off, and almost throws up afterward. It's an allegory for the fact that Theon would always be the lesser man.

I know. I wish I knew what's happening to my memory. Is it my age? The fact that I read the books too long ago and my brain is actively trying to converge remote events? May the Mother be merciful of my condition.

 

[NimbusD]

Yes. That was awful. Ridiculously clumsy. They don't even lead up to it... it's just, *knock knock* "Please use your magic."

Yeah pretty much. Was very disappointed. Like a lot of other things in the past two episodes, it just reeks of, "ok so this happens so we can get to this".

Also, hey guys, did you know Ramsay is a bad guy? He's a bad guy who does bad things. Didn't really click until he feed a baby and mother to his dogs.

Ugh.



Something about him doesn't work. My sister thinks he's adorable. A glassy eyed teddy bear in a suit of armor.

That whole scene, and any other scene like that since like the two after his character was introduced have been redundant and boring. Of course we know he's going to do that. Maybe write a scene where davos' character actually logically comes to the conclusion that Mel HAS to resurrect Jon, for *insert actual written reason here because the show sure as hell didn't write one*. Instead of being lazy and indulgent with that scene. Just reference the fucked up shit he did later on in passing, like true GRRM fashion. We know Ramsey's character already and they're not building it at all.

And Roose being killed so easily... I mean two shows in a row of cunning old men who've lived and plotted for their whole lives being undone by bastards they didn't care for, who telegraphed their intentions from miles away. Leaves a horrible taste in my mouth.

Book whining is getting really old.

Trust me, I would love to not think these things.

Yeah I like where Jaime is right now. He's sort of teetering between Kingslayer and Lord Commander, he's not really comfortable in either role yet. I hope he commits to one or the other soon.

Yeah, I really like this character right now. Has been steadily and consistently built up through the seasons and it's going to be interesting and earned wherever he ends up. Dude's about to blow some shit up.

 

[Purple Cheeto]

That's what happens when you take material that's not written for TV and put on TV, and also tell a writer "oh and by the way also you have 8 months to write your way out of situations that that guy's been struggling with for for 5 years". If this stuff really bothers you then you should reconsider watching the show in the first place, it's only going to spoil the books and make you angry.

Maybe if GURM hadn't sat around doing nothing for 10 years this wouldn't be a problem, but he got lazy and stopped writing after 3 books and then sold the rights to an incomplete mess and got even lazier.

At this point the books are irrelevant because there's almost no chance they ever get finished. Even if you somehow believe he is writing at the same pace as he did for ADwD (a laughable assertion) then the math says he won't be done until 2018 at the earliest. The TV show will be done and the story will be over.

 

[Ri'Orius]

I'm well aware why the Karstarks are pissed, the guy even mentions that outright during their conversation, and it's shown in the preview. I'm not daft. But revenge against the Starks or not - would you really want that guy lead the charge? Would you really want that guy to be your liege lord, the man you answer to, especially considering that right now the Boltons are spent and overextended, and Winterfell is still in reparations, thus very easy to take? And to top it off, the Boltons have made themselves an enemy of the Iron Throne by marrying Sansa to Ramsay. And as icing on the cake, Ramsay wants to attack the specifically neutral Night's Watch, based on nothing more but an assumption, which should be an insane outrage to the Karstarks, even if a Stark bastard is Lord Commander.

A lot of people don't give a shit about the Night's Watch anymore. Yeah, Ned and Jon and various other Good Guys wisely foresaw its importance, but to most of the realm the Night's Watch is just a bunch of rapists freezing their nuts off in the middle of nowhere.

When Ramsay suggests they go kill Jon, Karstark's on board, and Ramsay states (and Roose doesn't contradict him) that Umber and Manderly would also stand by them. The rest of the Northern Houses may still believe in the Watch, but why do you insist that the Karstarks agree?

 

[Tiktaalik]

I hope Stannis is still alive somehow.

My guess for this season was that Stannis was going to wind up being the next Lord Commander of the Night's Watch so I'm a bit surprised he really seems to have died for real.

Unless he weirdly shows up next episode I think it's pretty safe to say he's legit dead.

 

[Calm waterfall]

Ramsey is very predictable. Roose should have known better. But feeding them to the dogs while still alive, that is Ramsey in a crazy nutshell.

Preview spoiler

Spoiler

Dammit they caught Theon.