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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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Speedwagon

Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.
it was just an example to show the cable was different.

I wasn't responding to that video just adding to my earlier post. I'm trying to find the best solution for an N64 outputting RGB.
 

baphomet

Member
I wasn't responding to that video just adding to my earlier post. I'm trying to find the best solution for an N64 outputting RGB.

Without an upscaler your only option is an rgb mod, rgb scart cable, into a scart to component adapter.

It will look better than composite but your TV will still be scaling a low resolution/interlaced picture which will cause more input lag and a worse picture.
 

Speedwagon

Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.
Without an upscaler your only option is an rgb mod, rgb scart cable, into a scart to component adapter.

It will look better than composite but your TV will still be scaling a low resolution/interlaced picture which will cause more input lag and a worse picture.

Are you sure it will cause more input lag? Any tests?
 

Peagles

Member
Without an upscaler your only option is an rgb mod, rgb scart cable, into a scart to component adapter.

It will look better than composite but your TV will still be scaling a low resolution/interlaced picture which will cause more input lag and a worse picture.

This. Also many new TVs won't display 240p over component anyway so SCART to component adapter might not be viable depending on the TV.
 

Speedwagon

Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
That's why I don't want to use an upscaler?
Your plasma TV contains an upscaler that it will have to use for any sub-HD content. And it's going to add more lag than a dedicated external upscaler like an XRGB.
 
man i had a scare today. my framemeister wouldnt power on or even show the red powered off light anymore

turns out the scart adapter w/ sync stripper had the power unplugged. due to the way i had my cables run through cable managers i couldnt tell at first glance. thought i was going to have to go through RMA in a language i dont speak hell!
 

Iolo

Member
Okay, I found this info on a Cnet review of my TV.

"There's no VGA-style PC input, but there is an RS-232 port for custom AV control systems, as well as port for the included wired IR blaster."

Does that mean it's possible to connect VGA to my TV?

Edit: Or would a VGA-to-HDMI work without additional input lag?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1012113-STUD/xcellon_hdmi_vgaa_hdmi_to_vga.html/mode/edu

RS-232 is a serial port, it's probably used for controlling your TV (much like a remote control) but in a more in-depth way. It's not a video input.
 

baphomet

Member
Okay, I found this info on a Cnet review of my TV.

"There's no VGA-style PC input, but there is an RS-232 port for custom AV control systems, as well as port for the included wired IR blaster."

Does that mean it's possible to connect VGA to my TV?

Edit: Or would a VGA-to-HDMI work without additional input lag?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1012113-STUD/xcellon_hdmi_vgaa_hdmi_to_vga.html/mode/edu

An rgb n64 isn't VGA. VGA has nothing to do with this unless you're planning on using a line doubler to get VGA from a 240p/480i signal and letting your TV handle the upscaling to 1080p.
 

Speedwagon

Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.

Speedwagon

Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.
Xrgb mini is HDMI output.

The retrogaming page says XRGB-2 has 1ms input lag and XRGB-3 has 2ms. Does that compare?

Edit: Oh that's the Framemeister which is 24ms.
 

baphomet

Member
The retrogaming page says XRGB-2 has 1ms input lag and XRGB-3 has 2ms. Does that compare?

What exactly are you trying to do? If you're concerned about input lag you're not going to be able to use a flat panel. The 2ms is in B1 mode which is line doubling. So your TV is still upscaling the image. I believe the mini adds 1.5 frames. Its not enough to really effect anything other than rhythm games and fighters, but if 1.5 frames is too much lag then your only real option is a CRT.
 

Speedwagon

Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.
What exactly are you trying to do? If you're concerned about input lag you're not going to be able to use a flat panel. The 2ms is in B1 mode which is line doubling. So your TV is still upscaling the image. I believe the mini adds 1.5 frames. Its not enough to really effect anything other than rhythm games and fighters, but if 1.5 frames is too much lag then your only real option is a CRT.

I want the least input lag with a good picture (better than S-video) on my Plasma TV.
 

Speedwagon

Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.
Have you tried svideo or composite directly into your plasma? Is that too much input lag?

The input lag on my TV is fine by itself. Adding an additional 24ms isn't a good idea, though.
 

Speedwagon

Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.
The upscaling will be done by the scaler, not the TV. It will probably end up having less delay than just plugging it straight into the TV.

Hm, that's interesting. I'll take that into consideration.
 
Yes.
Even those which were "PAL-optimised" usually just had their music or screen ajusted, but the gameplay was kept slow. For ex: Aladdin on the Megadrive, Sonic 2 on the Megadrive and Master System. Switching them to 60Hz can make a mess.
A tiny fraction of them were properly optimised, like Sega Rally on Saturn which has the proper gameplay and music speed, and added screen estate.

That's not entirely true.

Yes, that's all the optimisation Sega ever did, they were particularly bad. Until the Saturn actually, when Sega started to optimise well on some mid-gem titles (VF2 was great). Sony was also almost universally awful, almost no games on any Sony consoles were ever PAL optimised (until the PS3 where it became HD and irrelevant). Strange how PAL territories overall embraced the companies that treated them the worst, optimisation wise (goes to show that most people don't even notice).

80% of Nintendo first party games were speed and music optimised on all consoles, all the way back to Super Mario Bros, Metroid and Zelda. ALL SNES games had the correct music speed, because the sound chip ran on a separate clock, and quite a lot had resolution adjustments to fill the screen and speed adjustments. There were some odd exceptions, like the half optimised Kirby's Adventure, and a few early N64 games like Wave Race. And many N64 3rd party games were too. PAL GCN games almost universally had a 60Hz option, though unfortunately it replaced the progressive scan option. Some GCN games (e.g. Metroid Prime 1) the PAL version is the best because it runs at a higher resolution - it's a true 576i, with 20% more lines rendered on screen.

Overall a mixed bag, and PAL is not how the games were originally designed so I don't use it at all anymore (except the odd GCN). But Nintendo truly treated PAL by far the best in terms of optimisation.

Interesting, thanks.

I was thinking about buying some retro consoles, I already have a SNES somewhere and wanted to get N64 and NES maybe. But I'm not sure anymore after finding out about that PAL stuff.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
The upscaling will be done by the scaler, not the TV. It will probably end up having less delay than just plugging it straight into the TV.
24ms is a lot of extra lag compared to good TVs these days.

If this dude's main priority is input lag, you shouldn't be recommending the Framemeister.

Though, after looking up details for the PN51F8500, no one in their right mind should be using that TV for anything in the first place if input lag is important to them (60+ ms before adding scaling lag).
 

Danny Dudekisser

I paid good money for this Dynex!
I just realized that I don't have a VGA-in on my TV, only a buncha HDMI ports and component. This presents a problem for my XRGB and my Dreamcast. Are VGA to HDMI adapters pretty foolproof a la VGA to DVI, or is there the potential to introduce problems?
 

Speedwagon

Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.
24ms is a lot of extra lag compared to good TVs these days.

If this dude's main priority is input lag, you shouldn't be recommending the Framemeister.

Though, after looking up details for the PN51F8500, no one in their right mind should be using that TV for anything in the first place if input lag is important to them (60+ ms before adding scaling lag).

I realize my TV doesn't have the best response time (although in Game and PC mode I believe it's faster than that), but that doesn't mean I don't care about it altogether. I want to be able to utilize my TV the best I can.
 

Peagles

Member
I realize my TV doesn't have the best response time (although in Game and PC mode I believe it's faster than that), but that doesn't mean I don't care about it altogether. I want to be able to utilize my TV the best I can.

I think what they're saying is, if the lag you already have on your TV doesn't bother you, then you shouldn't worry about the lag an upscaler will introduce.
 

Speedwagon

Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.
I think what they're saying is, if the lag you already have on your TV doesn't bother you, then you shouldn't worry about the lag an upscaler will introduce.

I am sensitive to input lag. However, I don't notice it on my TV. I believe it is much faster than what people say it is with proper settings. On my past LCD TVs it is far more noticeable, and those were said to have a lower response time.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I just realized that I don't have a VGA-in on my TV, only a buncha HDMI ports and component. This presents a problem for my XRGB and my Dreamcast. Are VGA to HDMI adapters pretty foolproof a la VGA to DVI, or is there the potential to introduce problems?
From what I've heard, finding a VGA to component transcoder that does not scale is your best bet.

I use an Audio Authority 9A60A for this, which does the job, but the XRGB-3 only plays nice with it in B1 mode (480p max).
 

Peagles

Member
I am sensitive to input lag. However, I don't notice it on my TV. I believe it is much faster than what people say it is with proper settings. On my past LCD TVs it is far more noticeable, and those were said to have a lower response time.

Hmm, I'm afraid if you experience input lag differently to how it is rated, then unfortunately the only way to be sure you will be satisfied is to test all equipment out in person before purchasing.
 
Finally just decided to play letterboxed with my XRGB. Too much of a hassle otherwise lol. Anyone know what the deal is with the scanline-esque pattern in Twilight Princess?
 

KC-Slater

Member
From what I've heard, finding a VGA to component transcoder that does not scale is your best bet.

I use an Audio Authority 9A60A for this, which does the job, but the XRGB-3 only plays nice with it in B1 mode (480p max).

Can you plug in a SLG before the 9A60A to introduce scanlines in to the mix?

Thinking, DC -> VGA box -> SLG -> 9A60A -> TV

Would this work?
 
D

Deleted member 22576

Unconfirmed Member
Going to meet Sean the videogame guy to buy a Playstation1!
 
I'm toying with the idea of getting a pvm. Right now I have a junky scart-Hdmi which I use in my banbridge switch to my LCD. If I go pvm I was going to get the scart- component box and put that through the banbridge. The switch has RCA audio out so I'm assuming the audio will pipe out through RCA. Am I on the right track?
 

antibolo

Banned
I'm toying with the idea of getting a pvm. Right now I have a junky scart-Hdmi which I use in my banbridge switch to my LCD. If I go pvm I was going to get the scart- component box and put that through the banbridge. The switch has RCA audio out so I'm assuming the audio will pipe out through RCA. Am I on the right track?

If you use a PVM there's no reason to convert RGB to component, that would be a waste, the major advantage of a PVM is native RGB input support (assuming you're not in Europe, if you are then it's just slightly better than a high-end consumer CRT I guess).
 
Yeah disregard the compoenent transcoder.

Bandrige switch outputs audio through both the rear RCA jacks and the 3.5mm headphone jack in the front
 

BTails

Member
Cross-posting from the Dreamcast Appreciation thread: I just bought a Dreamcast and need to know the best way to hook it up. My TV doesn't have VGA in, but I have a Framemeister, so is the Toro box the best bet? It looks like it allows 480p mode over Euro Scart, which is what I use in my setup.
 

Peltz

Member
Cross-posting from the Dreamcast Appreciation thread: I just bought a Dreamcast and need to know the best way to hook it up. My TV doesn't have VGA in, but I have a Framemeister, so is the Toro box the best bet? It looks like it allows 480p mode over Euro Scart, which is what I use in my setup.

Yup. Toro.
 
I already have a 20 or so inch Sony Trinitron for all my retro needs but I just scored a 32 inch Sony Trinitron Wega TV for free from Craigslist. It's this one right here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00006LHGV/?tag=neogaf0e-20

It's kind of huge and I'm not sure if it will fit on my TV stand at the moment but I might be able to make it work.. Any GAFers here have this specific TV? How's it look? I know it's 16:9 but I'm sure it will also do 4:3 (I hope anyway) I hope someone here has this thing! And can tell me a little more about it. (I trust Neogaf more than Amazon reviews.)
 

entremet

Member
So if I want to hook up a SNES to a CRT that only accepts component, would a SCART to component work? How would I do the audio?
 

Khaz

Member
It's a 4/3 screen:

One of the KV-32FS100's coolest features is its 16:9 enhanced mode, which delivers maximum picture quality by concentrating all viewable scan lines within a letterboxed image--wasting none of its horizontal resolution on rendering the black bars that border a widescreen image.

It has component but it doesn't say if it accepts 480p and better. Sounds cool either way.
 

BosSin

Member
I got my xrgb and it is fantastic. I spent some time tweaking the settings to get it just right for my megadrive 60hz. Is there some way of saving this as a preset? That way I will be able to have settings for 50hz and quickly switch between the 2 when necessary.
 
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