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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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M

megamanfan1500

Neo Member
Valcrist0 said:
Really crappy cellphone pics, but I finally got my 32" Sony Trinitron calibrated. Almost got the geometry perfect, can't quite get rid of that over scan and slight curve on the top though.

Code: 
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/tfj8u44.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ovmFi68.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Wvrbejc.jpg[/IMG]
Click to expand...


Looks fantastic! I have a 32 inch Sony CRT as well, and was wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing your settings? I've been messing around with the color, contrast, sharpness, etc since I bought it about 2 years ago from my local goodwill, and have yet to find anything that I've been happy with, so I just leave all settings on "standard"...
 
T

Teknoman

Member
megamanfan1500 said:
Looks fantastic! I have a 32 inch Sony CRT as well, and was wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing your settings? I've been messing around with the color, contrast, sharpness, etc since I bought it about 2 years ago from my local goodwill, and have yet to find anything that I've been happy with, so I just leave all settings on "standard"...
Click to expand...

Same here. Not a 32 inch, but same style and up for any tips.
 
T

Teknoman

Member
So using the grid test, it seems like the right side of the red squares are slightly hidden and the left side has some black space next to it. How would I fix that if I have no scaling or picture movement options?
 
P

PumpkinSpice

Banned
SheepyGuy said:
I know the rest of you have already gone off the deep end on this stuff and I agree that for the functionality available it's well priced but for most people $300 for a bit better image quality isn't really worth it. I guess if you're already buying Earthbound for that much or CIB MMX3 or something then it doesn't seem like that much, but then I'm also not going crazy on spending on games.

I'm probably just going run my new Genesis through svideo to the crummy ebay scaler I have. Yeah it's not perfect but it's not worth $300 to me to get it any better. Hell I could probably get something to do SCART to component but I also just don't want anything to do with SCART cables. They're huge, ugly, and getting them in Canada is kinda annoying. There's just some lines I don't want to cross.

If anything I'd rather buy a used trinitron for $20. I've told my wife to stop me from doing this cause I really don't want a CRT in my house again (heat, space, squeal, power use, weight, take your pick), but still. $300 is a lot.
Click to expand...

OK I lied. Bought a framemeister today. I won't have it in hand until the 23rd but since my wife is taking a trip to Japan anyway I'm able to skip shipping fees and avoid any potential customs duty, and the CAD to JPY exchange is still pretty good so I'm getting it for ~$320 CAD.
 
V

Valcrist0

Neo Member
antibolo said:
If it's a consumer TV then it's not that heavy, I think?
Click to expand...

Its super duper heavy, I think it was around 175lbs. Which is bad enough...but going upstairs was painful.

megamanfan1500 said:
Looks fantastic! I have a 32 inch Sony CRT as well, and was wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing your settings? I've been messing around with the color, contrast, sharpness, etc since I bought it about 2 years ago from my local goodwill, and have yet to find anything that I've been happy with, so I just leave all settings on "standard"...
Click to expand...

Sure thing, just keep in mind that the settings vary quite a bit depending on the model. I'll get them as soon as I get back home.
 
H

Hero_of_the_Day

Member
SinCityAssassin said:
I found a trinitron at a local components store for about $100. They said they'd hold it for me till next week so I can decide. Are there any converters I can use for my old systems for this.

http://imgur.com/a/h6hmg
Click to expand...

You can find them for free on craigslist around here with a little patience. Habitat for humanity resale always has some for sale, too. Fuck that price.

Edit: Oh, monitor, not consumer TV. Nevermind.
 
T

televator

Member
antibolo said:
If it's a consumer TV then it's not that heavy, I think?
Click to expand...
My 180 lbs 34" consumer CRT says otherwise.

SinCityAssassin said:
I found a trinitron at a local components store for about $100. They said they'd hold it for me till next week so I can decide. Are there any converters I can use for my old systems for this.

http://imgur.com/a/h6hmg
Click to expand...

Its beat up and only goes up to Svideo

giphy.gif
 
T

televator

Member
RhyDin said:
Aren't you guys picking up second hand old CRT's afraid of infestation, like cockroach eggs and whatnot?
Click to expand...

I once bought an N64 with numbers that made it RGB modable from a Goodwill. I decided to give it a thorough cleaning as I do with all my consoles. I opened it up and saw something incredible... really. No live roaches. No, my friends, the roaches were definitely dead as there were roach parts covering everything inside the console. It was as if someone had put a ton of roaches into a blender and then poured the roach juice into the system.

I closed it up and took it back to GW.
 
Anthony Soprano

Anthony Soprano

Member
televator said:
I once bought an N64 with numbers that made it RGB modable from a Goodwill. I decided to give it a thorough cleaning as I do with all my consoles. I opened it up and saw something incredible... really. No live roaches. No, my friends, the roaches were definitely dead as there were roach parts covering everything inside the console. It was as if someone had put a ton of roaches into a blender and then poured the roach juice into the system.

I closed it up and took it back to GW.
Click to expand...

Good move.

I have a sibling that used to work for a local ISP and customers who would return cable boxes (which would in turn be rented out to other customers later on) were infested. I work in computer repair at Geek Squad and popped open the side panel of a desktop once and a ton of them just swarmed out and went everywhere. Really disgusting - I'd be careful.

If you're disassembling to check, I'd probably do it outside. Since CRT's have vent grills in the back on a lot of them, perhaps you could do a preliminary check with a strong flashlight before buying.
 
T

televator

Member
RhyDin said:
Good move.

I have a sibling that used to work for a local ISP and customers who would return cable boxes (which would in turn be rented out to other customers later on) were infested. I work in computer repair at Geek Squad and popped open the side panel of a desktop once and a ton of them just swarmed out and went everywhere. Really disgusting - I'd be careful.

If you're disassembling to check, I'd probably do it outside. Since CRT's have vent grills in the back on a lot of them, perhaps you could do a preliminary check with a strong flashlight before buying.
Click to expand...

Yeah, luckily, I usually do this in my garage since I'm about to blast all the dust off with a compressor. I remember fixing my bro's X360 with a stuck tray, and there was a spider's egg sack on the RF shield.

People ask me why I cover my systems when not in use. One reason is dust, and the other reason is 'cus bugs are attracted to electronics.
 
H

Hero_of_the_Day

Member
antibolo said:
Not sure why I thought consumer TVs would be light, I guess I never moved a 30+ inch set.
Click to expand...

I have a 36" Trinitron that will be a permanent part of this house, even if I move. It is insanely heavy, and the weight all goes to the front, so it's hard as fuck to handle. Think it weighs like 250lbs.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Hero_of_the_Day said:
I have a 36" Trinitron that will be a permanent part of this bouse, even if I move. It is insanely heavy, and the weight all goes to the front, so it's hard as fuck to handle. Think it weighs like 250lbs.
Click to expand...
Moving my 32+ (not sure precisely was size) crt from my room to the garage about 80 feet away was torture. Any bigger and it would be permanently glued to my desk.
 
M

Mbrill82

Member
I've got a 40" Sony Trinitron CRT and I don't know what it weight but good lord it's a lot haha. When I move again it is NOT coming with me, it's just too big.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Mbrill82 said:
I've got a 40" Sony Trinitron CRT and I don't know what it weight but good lord it's a lot haha. When I move again it is NOT coming with me, it's just too big.
Click to expand...

40"
sleeping.gif


That's completely obscene. That thing must weigh more than most of my walls. Certainly part of the house.
 
G

GloriousBagel

Banned
Guys I have a question. I bought a PS2 to go back and play the SMT games I missed. I know that SMT games don't exactly push the graphical poweress of the PS2, but the image quality looks horrendous on my LCD 1080p tv.

So what I'm thinking of doing is dusting off my old 26 inch (I think) Sharp LCD tv, it was one of the first LCD tv's that rolled out in the market place.

I'm going to be hooking up composite cables to that tv from my PS2. Would that be a good solution? Or would it be better to buy a CRT tv with composite cable compatibility?
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
GloriousBagel said:
Guys I have a question. I bought a PS2 to go back and play the SMT games I missed. I know that SMT games don't exactly push the graphical poweress of the PS2, but the image quality looks horrendous on my LCD 1080p tv.

So what I'm thinking of doing is dusting off my old 26 inch (I think) Sharp LCD tv, it was one of the first LCD tv's that rolled out in the market place.

I'm going to be hooking up composite cables to that tv from my PS2. Would that be a good solution? Or would it be better to buy a CRT tv with composite cable compatibility?
Click to expand...

You need component cables. Or at least s-video. You can use PS3 cables with the PS2 if that's easier to find. Composite just looks awful.
 
G

GloriousBagel

Banned
NormalFish said:
You need component cables. Or at least s-video. You can use PS3 cables with the PS2 if that's easier to find. Composite just looks awful.
Click to expand...

There we go!! Component is what I what I was thinking about, had them confused with composite. Should I buy a crt or stick with that LCD? Check the LCD tv, the maximum output is 480p.
 
K

Khaz

Member
Teknoman said:
So using the grid test, it seems like the right side of the red squares are slightly hidden and the left side has some black space next to it. How would I fix that if I have no scaling or picture movement options?
Click to expand...

You do, but it's in a secret menu. You need to look online how to access the system menu, it's usually by entering a cheat code on the remote. try to find your chassis model first, then the system menu for said chassis. Many brands simply shared internals, remotes and menus.
 
M

miserable

Member
So i have this Commodre 1084S monitor that i haven't used in years.Today i got the urge of playing some DK64, so i hooked up the N64 to the monitor (the N64 is RGB modded, i'm using an RGB Scart to 9 pin RGB adapter cable to connect it), and i noticed the image on the screen is slightly tilted to the right.I might be wrong, but i don't remember this issue being present the last time i used the monitor.
The question is, can i do anything about it? It's not a big thing, but id does kinda annoy me a little bit.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
GloriousBagel said:
There we go!! Component is what I what I was thinking about, had them confused with composite. Should I buy a crt or stick with that LCD? Check the LCD tv, the maximum output is 480p.
Click to expand...

depends on how much you want to invest both time-wise and financially. if you want the absolute best picture, getting a 480p CRT might be better.
 
T

theSlacker

Member
RhyDin said:
Aren't you guys picking up second hand old CRT's afraid of infestation, like cockroach eggs and whatnot?
Click to expand...

I clean everything I get pretty thoroughly. As in case off parts out thoroughly. The cleaning is a compulsive thing for me though so can't really expect that everyone does the same.

antibolo said:
Not sure why I thought consumer TVs would be light, I guess I never moved a 30+ inch set.
Click to expand...

lol, don't worry about it. The professional/broadcast monitors are indeed a bit heavier.
 
B

brainpann

Member
https://m.reddit.com/r/retrogaming/comments/34thmi/my_finished_scaler_perfect_rgb_picture_on_modern/

Saw this on reddit today. Its a gbs-8820 scaler. I used one of these a few years ago before moving to the XRGB. It doesn't offer scanlines without a mod and you have to wire scart yourself, but its not a horrible option. The other caveat is that it only offers vga output, and i think at a resolution of 1024x768 max. I think ill dig mine out and try to take some comparison pics between it, my Xrgb, and my pvm.
 
G

geniusbits

Member
I remember seeing a page listing all RGB monitors ever made, anyone have that? I've been keeping my eyes out for different things like Ikegami's but don't know all of the manufacturer's of pro monitors.
 
K

KC-Slater

Member
brainpann said:
https://m.reddit.com/r/retrogaming/comments/34thmi/my_finished_scaler_perfect_rgb_picture_on_modern/

Saw this on reddit today. Its a gbs-8820 scaler. I used one of these a few years ago before moving to the XRGB. It doesn't offer scanlines without a mod and you have to wire scart yourself, but its not a horrible option. The other caveat is that it only offers vga output, and i think at a resolution of 1024x768 max. I think ill dig mine out and try to take some comparison pics between it, my Xrgb, and my pvm.
Click to expand...

How does this compare to the XRGB in terms of added lag? I'm very curious about this as a viable (albeit feature-limited) scaling option.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Got my PS2 RGB cable. It's pretty good. There's still a bit of noise which may be from the cable or the framemeister, but it's reduced over my component cables. I have put together a comparison for folks using the framemeister. Almost every setting is default with a slight increase in the A/D Level. All color settings are at their defaults.

Comparison:
G0ar0ii.png
Click to expand...

I believe the component input is over saturated though I'm not sure. There are resistors in the RGB lines in my RGB cable that may contribute to this difference in color (I honestly have no idea). The RGB cable has way less noise (far more noticeable in motion) and a cleaner, sharper image.

**Oh, it's also worth mentioning that both of these images are in slightly different physical locations on my display. I'm not sure why this is. Additionally, because I used the default and only slightly modified the scaler settings, I can almost guarantee that neither of these are perfectly scaled. Also: these are both scaled to 720p, not 1080p. This was mostly for capture reasons but I can do them in 1080p if people want. I'll also look in to better scaler settings if I do this.
 
B

brainpann

Member
KC-Slater said:
How does this compare to the XRGB in terms of added lag? I'm very curious about this as a viable (albeit feature-limited) scaling option.
Click to expand...


The reddit poster seems to think that it is around or slightly more than the mini. Personally, I recall something a bit more but not terrible.
 
P

PumpkinSpice

Banned
NormalFish said:
Got my PS2 RGB cable. It's pretty good. There's still a bit of noise which may be from the cable or the framemeister, but it's reduced over my component cables. I have put together a comparison for folks using the framemeister. Almost every setting is default with a slight increase in the A/D Level. All color settings are at their defaults.

Comparison:


I believe the component input is over saturated though I'm not sure. There are resistors in the RGB lines in my RGB cable that may contribute to this difference in color (I honestly have no idea). The RGB cable has way less noise (far more noticeable in motion) and a cleaner, sharper image.

**Oh, it's also worth mentioning that both of these images are in slightly different physical locations on my display. I'm not sure why this is. Additionally, because I used the default and only slightly modified the scaler settings, I can almost guarantee that neither of these are perfectly scaled. Also: these are both scaled to 720p, not 1080p. This was mostly for capture reasons but I can do them in 1080p if people want. I'll also look in to better scaler settings if I do this.
Click to expand...

How did you capture this? What is the color space set to for the component capture? I think the PS2 outputs BT-601 but your scaler might default to BT-709.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
SheepyGuy said:
How did you capture this? What is the color space set to for the component capture? I think the PS2 outputs BT-601 but your scaler might default to BT-709.
Click to expand...

Captured via a Avermedia Game Broadcaster HD. I'm honestly not sure what the color space setting is. I have very limited knowledge of that stuff. How would I change that on a Framemeister? anyone?
 
T

Timu

Member
NormalFish said:
Captured via a Avermedia Game Broadcaster HD. I'm honestly not sure what the color space setting is. I have very limited knowledge of that stuff. How would I change that on a Framemeister? anyone?
Click to expand...
Same one I got...and I love it.=p Glad someone else here got a capture card, games are meant to be captured dammit!!!=p

Also, you can't set the color spacing on that capture card itself, only certain ones like the Startech/Micomsoft ones.
 
T

televator

Member
More Capture card should allow the setting of color space. Proper color space is essential when making comparisons across signals types!

All too often you'll have some guy take some screens and complaint that X connection type looks washed out and it's probably because the black level is all wrong on the capture device.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
televator said:
More Capture card should allow the setting of color space. Proper color space is essential when making comparisons across signals types!

All too often you'll have some guy take some screens and complaint that X connection type looks washed out and it's probably because the black level is all wrong on the capture device.
Click to expand...

A number of composite / S-video captures in the OP suffer from this, actually.

I always meant to get around to correcting it but I never made the time for it.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Timu said:
Same one I got...and I love it.=p Glad someone else here got a capture card, games are meant to be captured dammit!!!=p

Also, you can't set the color spacing on that capture card itself, only certain ones like the Startech/Micomsoft ones.
Click to expand...

It's pretty good. Only complaint I have is that the software is kind of obnoxious at times.

So then would colorspace be an issue for the capture card or the framemeister? I would assume that information would all be made the same by the time it's going in to the capture card but maybe the framemeister doesn't mess with that? i dunno.
 
P

PumpkinSpice

Banned
NormalFish said:
It's pretty good. Only complaint I have is that the software is kind of obnoxious at times.

So then would colorspace be an issue for the capture card or the framemeister? I would assume that information would all be made the same by the time it's going in to the capture card but maybe the framemeister doesn't mess with that? i dunno.
Click to expand...

The color space issue for component arises when you convert from YUV to RGB (it affects the math done), and I assume you'd have that done in the scaler as part of... scaling. The only manual PDF I could find for the framemeister is in nihongo so I'm not sure if there is a color space setting but I assume there should be.
 
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