NormalFish
Banned
it's possible this setting is bugged now that I think on it. I'll investigate a little bit later. thanks.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
- Start date
- Status
it's possible this setting is bugged now that I think on it. I'll investigate a little bit later. thanks.
Use AmarecTV only, so much better than Avermedia software it's not even funny.
I would give it a 10/10 even.
NormalFish
Banned
Amarec gives the option to mess with recording settings like fps/resolution/etc.?
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
I've given up on my original order for a mini ever showing up. Went ahead and ordered another from somewhere else. Hopefully this one arrives. Time to get my money back from the eBay seller.
Yeah, I've been learning more recently that captured images need to be taken with a grain of salt unless you can determine that the capturing was done in correct color space.
When I do finally get around to getting a capture device, I expect it might cost me a pretty penny because it damn well better have a ton of setting options. Lol
NormalFish
Banned
with my comparison specifically, I was more pointing to the noise and general clarity of the image rather than the color. Generally I agree with you, though. If I do a more comprehensive comparison I'll make sure to investigate that.
Yes, all that and more, even lets you change between capture cards, choose codecs you installed like x264 and more.
My Startech capture card even lets me configure the color space thanks to that program.
NormalFish
Banned
well damn. Guess I'll get that downloaded. Thanks.
Currently trying other games with the PS2 RGB. it definitely seems sharper. I think I used a poor example game since other games seem to be showing fuller colors with RGB. I think my only complaint so far is that the dithering is that much more obvious.
moltonasty
Member
Really enjoying the PVM! Hard to express in photos how awesome it looks. Shoutout to Baphomet for the superb N64 RGB mod.
Now if I can just figure out how to run my NTSC Wii through RGB I'll be set for life!
which are the consoles whose internal resolution matches the output resolution? i'm wondering because those would be the only ones capable of true 1:1 pixel mapping going from what i've read about the ways consoles are outputting internal resolution.
aww. that sucks.
i got mine from ebay and didn't have any trouble. all these horror stories i hear about ebay make me feel like i'm very lucky there since i've never had big issues. the one time a package was lost, it was something that didn't even work since it was junk parts that i wanted for an experiment.
aww. that sucks.
i got mine from ebay and didn't have any trouble. all these horror stories i hear about ebay make me feel like i'm very lucky there since i've never had big issues. the one time a package was lost, it was something that didn't even work since it was junk parts that i wanted for an experiment.
GayForMaster
Banned
I would like to convert a component device of mine from 480p to 240p, but I'm not sure what the best route is. I heard about the extron emotia but it looks like it only takes VGA, so is it a good idea to convert the component input into vga to fit it in the extron? Would there be quality loss if I did that?
BONKERS
Member
Very nice! Thanks a lot for taking the time to do it.
It's strange that the bands of color in the text box are blending together in the Component shot. I just fired up my copy of X4 on my PS2 on my CRT over component and no such thing occurs. Though some of the other things in your component image I can see (Such as slightly less detail in dark areas)
Here are some pictures, though mind you, my camera sucks at low light photography, had to try and adjust the white balance on the camera with a manual measure. With a CRT that's a bit hard, I have pretty shaky hands,etc. The bias lighting helped a bit though. Colors are still off in most shots
http://u.cubeupload.com/MrBonk/DSCN0842.jpg
http://u.cubeupload.com/MrBonk/DSCN0847.jpg
http://u.cubeupload.com/MrBonk/DSCN0846.jpg
http://u.cubeupload.com/MrBonk/DSCN0845.jpg
EDIT: Here's a 3x3 point upscale of a raw emulated capture from arbex. Seems your RGB shot has more noise and things that don't exist in the raw output
http://u.cubeupload.com/MrBonk/ARBEX201505050511018.png
The PS1. The most commonly used video mode of the PS1 is 320x240. Exactly 240p
Here are other video modes it uses
+-------+--------------------+-------------------+
| Mode | Resolution (H x V) | Scan |
+-------+--------------------+-------------------+
| 0 | 256 x 240 | |
| 1 | 320 x 240 | Non-Interlaced |
| 2 | 512 x 240 | |
| 3 | 640 x 240 | |
+-------+--------------------+-------------------+
| 4 | 256 x 480 | |
| 5 | 320 x 480 | Interlaced |
| 6 | 512 x 480 | |
| 7 | 640 x 480 | |
+-------+--------------------+-------------------+
1:1 mapping though however, I guess only really applies if you are using square pixels. The NES/SNES don't for ex.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
I have been on eBay since damn near when they first launched and this is the first time I remember having a package lost. Just sucks that it was something from Japan, so it takes so long to decide it's really gone and now going through the process of getting a refund and ordering another. I bought from some site that offered express shipping for only like $15, though. So, should have it by the end of next week.
NormalFish
Banned
Few factors at play. First I think it's obvious when comparing against that emulator shot that my images are not perfectly scaled. That's somewhat unfortunate since it certainly impacts image quality. Additionally, the framemeister's component input is a bit noisy. This could explain why I'm getting some artifacting/blurriness/etc. that you're not experiencing on a CRT.
Overall after experimenting a bit more, I prefer the RGB cable to component. the sharpness is really obvious in some games. As I said before, my only real concern is that dithering is even more obvious because of the added clarity.
Well at least you're in Europe so you can easily get RGB out of consumer CRTs. If you can find a decent Trinitron it will be almost as good as a PVM.
I wonder how good this one is compared to a PVM.. I mean a PVM with 600 should blow it out of the water no?
http://i.imgur.com/iPW6TSe.jpg
It's a Trinitron KV21FX30 that i'm using right now, it's pretty good but I wanted even better I guess...
I've been meaning to check out your screens on my big screen when I get the chance. PS2 can look pretty on real hardware, if my hardware BC PS3 is any indication. Just wish there was a real way to force 480p on real hardware. The hack solution out there use some horrible jank methods to get faux progressive resolutions.
BONKERS
Member
I don't think the dithering should be too much a problem to get used to. It's representative of how it really looks. /shrug
The scaling obviously, I wasn't really comparing it to that. As much as I would just comparing the detail in the artwork present. Seemingly there being stuff in the RGB shot that doesn't exist in the raw.
That's a quite good TV, you wouldn't see that much of a difference with a PVM. There is a bit of a difference, but the WOW factor experienced by Americans is also (mainly) due to the switch from Composite to RGB. I mean, PVMs have a great picture quality, but its main asset is firstly to be able to display RGB.
Plus, using RGB Scart on a consumer TV means you are able to experience the awesome lazy experience of having your display switching on to the right channel when powering the console. Combined with an automatic Scart Switch and you can play all your consoles without ever touching the remote or the TV.
Charles Brandon
Member
Do European CRTS support 60Hz though?
They do. What they may not support is NTSC when using Composite. But we don't care about Composite.
Thanks, Khaz. Yeah it's a pretty good set.
Yesterday I was offered a Bang Olufsen MX6000 set for about 10USD in perfect shape, should i try it out? From what I heard they should be much better than the regular CRT sets, i just need to make sure it has a remote. Has anyone had any experience with BO sets? Cheers!
Yesterday I was offered a Bang Olufsen MX6000 set for about 10USD in perfect shape, should i try it out? From what I heard they should be much better than the regular CRT sets, i just need to make sure it has a remote. Has anyone had any experience with BO sets? Cheers!
Are you referring to broadcast monitors or consumer grade CRTs or both?
sixteen-bit
Member
Sure. Does it come with the remote?
In my experience almost every modern European consumer CRT TV supports 60hz, and most can handle NTSC just fine.
I heard that there are some TVs that expect a NTSC signal at 60hz, and can't handle PAL60, but I have never seen of those in the wild.
In my live I have seen 2 TVs that couldn't handle 60hz. One was at least 30 years old, the other was actually a then (2007) modern flat LCD TV, that could only handle my Wii at 60hz, when it started in 50hz first.
(In both cases it was a fun challenge to turn the Wii back to 50hz. At first I used the Wiimotes rumble to feel my way through the menus. Later I learned there is a key combination to reset the Wii to 50hz)
Consumer TVs. The main challenge regarding CRTs and resolutions is to change the horizontal frequency: all TVs are designed for 15kHz and most computer screens can only do 31kHz. But going between 50 and 60Hz should pose no problem to the electronics. At worst the TV doesn't have a ratio compensation and the user needs to stretch the 60Hz image manually. I've never encountered a TV that couldn't take 60Hz when fed RGB.
The problem with Composite (and RF, and S-video) is the encoded NTSC and PAL signal. most early TVs only have the hardware needed to decode one, not both, to reduce costs. Trying to use NTSC on a PAL TV means at best having a black and white image, at worst no image at all. Because many people assume 60Hz = NTSC, manufacturers default to saying it's not supported or not compatible, whereas it fact it is, at least partially.
The MX6000 doesn't :| Screw it then I guess, the remotes cost more than the TV.
However there's another one - BeoVision 1 looks like one of the most recent CRTs, along with the LCD remote, pretty much in new state - how about this one? 32" CRT - sounds ridicilous xD
guess who's joined the CRT club...
the thing that pushed me over the edge was SGDQ since i'll be going this year for the first time and they only use these for old consoles. plus, it should be better overall for the game i'm playing (F-Zero GX)
i found it in a electronics store that sells old stuff. they had others but this was the best they had there. came to $75 but can't complain since it was either this or nothing.
best thing is that now i can directly compare FM to a real CRT and see how much of a deal input lag is for me.
the thing that pushed me over the edge was SGDQ since i'll be going this year for the first time and they only use these for old consoles. plus, it should be better overall for the game i'm playing (F-Zero GX)
i found it in a electronics store that sells old stuff. they had others but this was the best they had there. came to $75 but can't complain since it was either this or nothing.
best thing is that now i can directly compare FM to a real CRT and see how much of a deal input lag is for me.
AmarecTV is great, but it's important to note that you tend to introduce at least one frame of latency if you're using a DirectShow stack to access your device (as AmarecTV does) instead of using a program that can access it directly. Just kinda gotta weigh the two.
Thankfully it doesn't affect me at all, I play games perfectly still through it.=p
TV is now set up
but now i'm wondering something. does these things have any kind of hidden settings?
also, how are things like sharpness and brightness and the like configured here? it's been so long since i had one of these so i have no idea what's the right look.
also, i'm looking for a factory reset or something like that.
but now i'm wondering something. does these things have any kind of hidden settings?
also, how are things like sharpness and brightness and the like configured here? it's been so long since i had one of these so i have no idea what's the right look.
also, i'm looking for a factory reset or something like that.
MightyHedgehog
Member
This result in Google might help. Be very careful to note original values to go back to as these service menus don't often have a way to restore them to factory or previous settings. It's not the easiest, most intuitive interface.
There are 240p test images and SD CRT image calibration suites out there, including links to them somewhere in this thread.
I'd be wary of doing that at a deeper, service menu-based level, but generally there is a default setting in the main menus, though the range of possibilities on the main interface is pretty limited so it's not something necessary. You'll need to eyeball it to preference or go with the test suites and images to calibrate it yourself.
looks like something to try later when i have more time.
for now i just tried tests to see the difference between input lag from it and my current setup and i can really feel it. i even found out i can tell the difference between 0 and 1 frames by trying the same game on N64 and VC. it's very small but i can see how that could mess up high level players.
that doesn't mean i'm gonna toss my FM in the trash. this is more like a chance to get back in the high level play in F-Zero but i'll still be doing casual stuff on the big screen since it's more comfortable.
also, keeping my old N64 was useful since the RGB one doesn't work and i don't have RGB converters.
for now i just tried tests to see the difference between input lag from it and my current setup and i can really feel it. i even found out i can tell the difference between 0 and 1 frames by trying the same game on N64 and VC. it's very small but i can see how that could mess up high level players.
that doesn't mean i'm gonna toss my FM in the trash. this is more like a chance to get back in the high level play in F-Zero but i'll still be doing casual stuff on the big screen since it's more comfortable.
also, keeping my old N64 was useful since the RGB one doesn't work and i don't have RGB converters.
Speedwagon
Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.
Anthony Soprano
Member
So, this ended up working. Guess the cable sent to me was incompatible or defective, or was damaged in packaging in the mail (I'm guessing if the cables are folded a certain way the contacts could come loose, since other people in this thread have reported cables just stop working out of nowhere.)
NormalFish
Banned
Awesome! Good to hear it. Enjoy your sexy IQ.
Don't factory reset it unless you have the proper tools and education to calibrate it correctly again. "Factory reset" = "back to uncalibrated state". The previous owners most probably never messed with the system settings / calibration anyway.
You can fix your geometry, especially reduce the overscan which is often set way too generously, sometimes reduce the forced sharpness, but that's pretty much it. there are tons of settings you don't want to touch and no one knows what they're for, but they will be messed up by a factory reset.
They're hidden for a reason. I wouldn't recommend going into the service menu unless you know what you're doing. If you change the wrong setting, it could damage or brick your TV. Doing a factory reset in the service menu is also different from doing one in the user menu. It undoes the calibration and adjustments it gets before it leaves the factory. This likely will brick your TV. Most of the basic settings like brightness and sharpness should be accessible from the user menu anyway. The only reason to go into the service menu is for maintenance/repair, adjusting geometry and convergence, or a professional calibration.
If you do decide to go in there, write down the values of all the settings before so you can change them back. Better yet, record the whole thing on video as you go. I'd also recommend finding the service or maintenance manual. It should explain how to access the the menu and the functions of some (but not all) of the settings. Though again, I would advise against accessing the service menu if you don't have a need for it.
EDIT: Looks like Khaz already explained some of this.
moltonasty
Member
I ended up doing this, looks incredible. Last night a friend came over and we played retro games on the PVM for hours and had a blast. I swear this monitor has reignited my love for a lot of classic games. My friend couldn't believe how good some of these Wii games and emulators were looking hahah.
Indeed. It's amazing what the correct display can do for games.
GayForMaster
Banned
I just had my wii plugged into my PVM but I took it out. I'll post some shots when I get back from work if someone doesn't beat me to it.
I want you to love me deeply and care for me forever.
sixteen-bit
Member
Considering how much it weighs they should be paying you $50 to take it off their hands.
I joke, but folks are getting rid of their consumer CRT sets everyday. Save money for professional monitors.
I joke, but folks are getting rid of their consumer CRT sets everyday. Save money for professional monitors.
I had one of these for a long time, and using a WEGA Trinitron + S-Video/Component output is the easiest way to get good picture from your old systems!
Be aware, these things can be 150-200lbs or more! After putting mine through a move just once, I was motivated to make the jump to RGB/XRGB Mini, but it's considerably more expensive than a good old CRT.
That seems to be the general idea I'm getting from my research online. One of those BVM/PVM models?
I'm really not ready to do any heavy lifting either. Lol I have a really bad back.
If it can do Scart RGB or Component, I think it's fair.
- Status