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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
- Start date
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I got that on VC and admit is does still look very nice. I never gave it a fair shake since it was such a letdown to the SNES original.
sixteen-bit
Member
richisawesome, do you have Ogre Battle 64? I wonder how that looks in RGB.
I wondered this too, so I just tried it out. It's definitely nice looking but it's still a kinda "blurry"/"soft" looking game, if you know what I mean. I took these super close up to see the scanlines etc, but in their quoted form should give you a good idea of image quality. Crappy phone camera as usual though so the shutter speed isn't good enough to get past the refresh lines in pretty much all these photos.
I do have it, but the post above has pretty much covered it.
So far out of the games I've tried today, the following look AMAZING in RGB:
Super Mario 64
Starfox 64
Wave Race 64
Mario Tennis
Mario Golf
Pokemon Puzzle League
Kirby 64
Banjo Kazooie
Yoshi's Story
Havent had a chance to play anything else. Been too occupied with Soilel on my Mega Drive.
baphomet
Member
Glad youre enjoying the N64 Rich. Ive been messing with the gba you sent more than I have my ps4 today. The girlfriend is really looking forward to finally getting to play rhythm tengoku.
Yea theres a few 64 games that tend to have a softer picture than some of the older systems. I think my favorite looking game on it would be Mischief Makers. Bangai-O also looks really sharp.
Yea theres a few 64 games that tend to have a softer picture than some of the older systems. I think my favorite looking game on it would be Mischief Makers. Bangai-O also looks really sharp.
metsallica
Member
Since I "threatened" I'd be back, figured I'd try here first before jumping into the Saturn thread. I have a NTSC Saturn (MK-80000A) and the SCART cable I purchased from Retro Console Accessories back when they had a website. (Sega Saturn stereo RGB SCART cable for NTSC model Saturn). I was planning on connecting that to the XRGB Mini with the RGB adapter it came with. Will that work? Will I also get audio that way? I don't want to blow anything up... yet.
baphomet
Member
Unless you specifically asked for a JP21 pin wiring on the saturn cable then dont plug it in the xrgb. Unless where you buy the cable specifically says its JP21 pin its likely wired for euro scart. You need a euro scart to JP21 converter before you plug it in the xrgb. And yes, youll get sound through it, unless they wired it with the female rca audio lines instead of running it through the scart connector.
metsallica
Member
I know that when I bought it there was an option for Euro wiring or NTSC wiring, which I hoped meant JP21, but the page seems to have disappeared from the internet and the seller no longer seems to stock Saturn cables on eBay.
baphomet
Member
That was likely for the console itself. Its a ntsc euro scart cable. You can always double check with a multimeter to be completely sure.
metsallica
Member
OK, how can I tell the difference with one? And can you recommend one on Amazon? Thank you so much for your help thus far!
baphomet
Member
Its entirely up to you how you want to do it, but i would recommend going with euro scart cables (seem to be easier to come across) and then something like this http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/european-scart-to-framemeister-xrgb-mini-converter-for-sale.html that way a euro scart cable can be used with the xrgb. I dont have an xrgb personally, and all my stuff is euro scart so that may sway me towards euro wiring. Theres others one here who would know where to find the jp21 pin cables, but i feel like i remember someone saying that a popular ebay seller (retro_console_accessories or something similar) would wire her cables as jp21 if you ask. Hope that helps some!
Bar81
Member
retrogamingcables.co.uk will also wire cables for JP21 - they have done so with all the RGB cables I have bought from them.
baphomet
Member
In that case it would be equally as easy to go with jp21 cables as long as you ask for them. I guess if youre using an xrgb and something like a selecty it would be easier to use the jp21 pin cables and keep everything uniform.
Bar81
Member
That was my thought process since everything I have is JP wired. Having said that, it might be cheaper and easier in some cases to find SCART cables and just pick up a convertor.
metsallica
Member
Retro console accessories is who I actually bought the cable from but I never spoke with them prior to purchase. That said I have this nagging feeling I might have the right cable and if I can tell with a $10 multimeter I can have in a day I'm willing to give it a try. It's a useful device to have regardless if it turns out I have the wrong cable, and what's a few more dollars to this hobby? Heh. So what's the difference? How can I tell them apart?
baphomet
Member
Actually its probably easiest to just check for continuity between pins.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/gamescart/gamescart.htm
Thats got the pinout for saturn on there.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/gamescart/gamescart.htm
Thats got the pinout for saturn on there.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
If you live in North America, then I don't see any point in getting SCART instead of JP21 if you have the option. No displays in the USA accept SCART input and all of the upscalers discussed here expect JP21.
Huh?
SCART is way way more easier to find and cheaper and supported by high-quality third-party vendors...both in NA and EU. I'd way more recommend a full SCART pipeline over a JP21...especially if you have multiple systems.
Yeah,
But in the US we never got RGB at the consumer level. Most official JP21 cables are very expensive...and even the third-party cables available there (like on amazon.co.jp) are quite expensive. SCART cables across the board are usually $10-20.
baphomet
Member
Yes but scart cables are still much easier to get in the states. I dont know a single person who uses jp21 pin, even those using framemeisters. And the vast majority of people using rgb in the states are using scart to component or similar devices.
....but the SCART --> YUV converters so that we yanks can get component are.... SCART
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I've never seen any for sale in brick and mortar stores in my lifetime, so I'm not sure how you can qualify that statement unless you're referring to specific consoles. Ordering from one online outlet usually isn't any "easier" than another, and retro_console_accessories sells brand new Genesis, SNES, Neo Geo, and PS1/PS2/PS3 JP21 cables for ~$18, the same price they charge for SCART. I was able to track down official Saturn cables from a JP outlet for less than $30 shipped, which was still more than I would have liked to spend but personally worth it just to avoid clutter from having to pick up extra converters. There's also the theoretical possibility of signal loss that comes with adding more analog converters/switches to the chain, but I wouldn't expect that to be a reasonable concern in this case since SCART<>JP21 should be as simple as it gets technically speaking (just a pin re-mapping if I'm not mistaken).
If you're just using a SCART>YUV converter instead of a Japanese upscaler then it's a different story wrt convenience and clutter, but 240p support over component isn't a given on every TV.
645,
Not sure why you are not getting it. Here it is:
SCART has a much bigger presence in the west (Europe) and consequently is a more supported there and now in NA. It is far more economical (cheaper), more accessible for more systems, far easier to find, much easier to find with custom cable makers even now located right here in NA.
Not to mention easily accessible SCART to Component switchers available. I never even cared about SCART....even when I was living in France in the late nineties my 16:9 Thomson CRT had the input but I never thought about it. But now the retro scene in EU is huge. It is the format that has taken hold for older consoles.
Ultimately, once you get more than a few systems you have to make a couple decisions. Get a switcher (SCART is easier to find). Get multiple upscalers. Just easier to go with SCART since that is far easier to locate.
It is your choice, of course. I went all SCART because the cable for saturn was the deal-breaker for me. Pay a lot of money or pay $15. Simple choice.
Key is consistency. Pick one format and go with it. At this point I even have a SCART cable for my Sigma. You know what that cost was? $20. You know what I paid for my JP21 RGB cable for the Sigma (at Mak)? $40.
Not sure why you are not getting it. Here it is:
SCART has a much bigger presence in the west (Europe) and consequently is a more supported there and now in NA. It is far more economical (cheaper), more accessible for more systems, far easier to find, much easier to find with custom cable makers even now located right here in NA.
Not to mention easily accessible SCART to Component switchers available. I never even cared about SCART....even when I was living in France in the late nineties my 16:9 Thomson CRT had the input but I never thought about it. But now the retro scene in EU is huge. It is the format that has taken hold for older consoles.
Ultimately, once you get more than a few systems you have to make a couple decisions. Get a switcher (SCART is easier to find). Get multiple upscalers. Just easier to go with SCART since that is far easier to locate.
It is your choice, of course. I went all SCART because the cable for saturn was the deal-breaker for me. Pay a lot of money or pay $15. Simple choice.
Key is consistency. Pick one format and go with it. At this point I even have a SCART cable for my Sigma. You know what that cost was? $20. You know what I paid for my JP21 RGB cable for the Sigma (at Mak)? $40.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I'll go ahead and backpedal to the point where I'll say that I obviously can't really make a case for one over the other for every use case, but literally every point in your post does not apply to my situation.
1) Europe's scene is irrelevant to me.
2) Factoring in the additional cost of a decent converter, the price argument doesn't bear out for the consoles that I own and want to obtain cables for.
3) Neither is "easier" to find for mainstream consoles assuming you know how to use Google.
4) Component transcoding is irrelevant to me. I only play on monitors that don't even have component inputs.
5) I neither need nor really want a switcher.
1) Europe's scene is irrelevant to me.
2) Factoring in the additional cost of a decent converter, the price argument doesn't bear out for the consoles that I own and want to obtain cables for.
3) Neither is "easier" to find for mainstream consoles assuming you know how to use Google.
4) Component transcoding is irrelevant to me. I only play on monitors that don't even have component inputs.
5) I neither need nor really want a switcher.
Easier NOW.
Enterprising NA sellers now offer high-quality cables in both formats for a similar price. Or offer versions with choice of wiring.
Step back a couple of years and try to find a decent JP21 cable for Saturn. Very, very expensive. Good luck trying to find a good JP21-BNC breackout for you PVM...It was far easier to get them for SCART initially
Of course now it is a bit easier but a lot of us are already rocking SCART.
Enterprising NA sellers now offer high-quality cables in both formats for a similar price. Or offer versions with choice of wiring.
Step back a couple of years and try to find a decent JP21 cable for Saturn. Very, very expensive. Good luck trying to find a good JP21-BNC breackout for you PVM...It was far easier to get them for SCART initially
Of course now it is a bit easier but a lot of us are already rocking SCART.
Jimnymebob
Member
What's the best way to get rid of jaggies on a ps2?
I've got it hooked up to a 32" LCD with component at the moment, and I'm happy with the image pretty much except the jaggies.
I'm also not looking to spend a lot on it, if that's possible?
I've got it hooked up to a 32" LCD with component at the moment, and I'm happy with the image pretty much except the jaggies.
I'm also not looking to spend a lot on it, if that's possible?
They're pretty much inherit to the system. They're there, no matter what you do.
Best bet? Use your PC to emulate them.
Jimnymebob
Member
Ah, alright then.
I'm not that bothered as there's another PS2 in the house connected to a CRT, but I was just curious.
Last time I played though my sharpness setting may have been on default, so I'll just lower that.
It's like my N64. RGB modded and hooked up via RGB to a CRT. Best possible image quality, but Majora's Mask is still a jaggy mess.
Then again, Mario 64 is smooth, crisp and jaggyless. Just depends on the game.
ALTHOUGH, using an LCD with it's shitty inbuilt scaler isn't helping you much.
Then again, Mario 64 is smooth, crisp and jaggyless. Just depends on the game.
ALTHOUGH, using an LCD with it's shitty inbuilt scaler isn't helping you much.
sixteen-bit
Member
Best bet would be to drop the sharpness setting on the TV. You're not going to be able to make the game display in a higher resolution than intended on original hardware.
Anyone try that Xploder thing that came out in the mid-2000s? Wasn't it a PS2 upscaler?
SCART is definitely the de facto standard in the retro RGB community. The only oddity is those XRGB upscalers, and most people who own them replace the JP21 adapter that comes with it with a SCART adapter.
Even if you don't live in Europe, SCART is still a better supported standard overall. There's really no reason to bother with JP21 at all.
Even if you don't live in Europe, SCART is still a better supported standard overall. There's really no reason to bother with JP21 at all.
I would say there are exceptions in this, but resolution won't do much for jaggies unless you're looking at super sampling -- which is out of the question. Anti aliasing is the traditional method and that too is not doable on original console hardware with games that don't have it programmed in afaik.
Edit:
As to the XPLoader, here's the FAQ:
Sounds to me like the XPLoader can in fact force 480p mode [cool!]. Anything over 480p is upscaling.
anyone tried updating their framemeister's firmware to 1.10 yet ? Is this an essential update over 1.07 ?
http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/xrgb-mini_download.htm
http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/xrgb-mini_download.htm
IrishNinja
Member
^damn, i didn't know it was up to that version already....yeah dying to see impressions here, might have to hit the thread on SHMUPS
There's an interersting "zoom mode" now available which helps a bit in games with black bars under and above the screen. When zoom is set to 90% in 1080p mode the scanlines actually look quite good! Other than that there's someting called HDMI Direct and is some kind of improvement for HDMI input sources.
GameTech has a new video examining the NESRGB board. Gets into detail regarding power draw and stuff like that, but the great thing right off the bat is that he has no problem connecting a SNES multi-out port & using a SNES SCART cable.
Cannot wait to get mine back.
Cannot wait to get mine back.
sixteen-bit
Member
That's awesome since I still don't own a SCART switch, lol. I should get one though. It would save me a lot of hassle between the MD, SNES and Saturn.
metsallica
Member
Just wanted to thank you for all your help in this thread, you saved me a potential headache! You were right on the money, checked the continuity today and it is indeed an NTSC SCART cable, not a JP21 cable. So that now means I can't use the cable that came with the Framemeister, right? I basically need this guy that you linked earlier: http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/european-scart-to-framemeister-xrgb-mini-converter-for-sale.html
I think that's what I'll probably do. Looks like I missed SCART-a-palooza too, but I guess the whole thing does bring some follow-up questions to mind for me...
I'm new to the whole SCART thing; purchasing the cable I did for my Saturn was me dipping my toe into the waters... I don't have any other SCART devices so I'm not completely familiar with the standard and its potential limitations, I've just been trying to get the best possible quality out of unmodified legacy systems and was led to believe that was how to do it with Saturn. Audio presents a bit of a unique issue, though:
My TV doesn't have audio nor ARC (it's a 9th gen Kuro, a 101FD) so my receiver handles all audio duties. This is fine for just about everything, except it's naturally missing a SCART input. In my current setup the receiver sends analog video to the XRGB over composite (NES), s-video (SNES, N64) or component (PS2, GCN, Wii), and I have a VGA box for the Dreamcast that goes directly into my TV with audio into the receiver through a 3.5mm to stereo RCA cable. The XRGB only OUTPUTS over HDMI, so while I guess I could then route its output BACK through my receiver, that seems kind of counter-intuitive to me and adds a semi-needless step in the process for Saturn audio. So, long story long, what are my other options for the Saturn? Is there a way to decouple the audio from the SCART adapter into something I can send directly to my receiver? Do I try to find the illusive Saturn s-video cable? Do I go with the kludgy HDMI option? Am I completely off-base here and missing an obvious solution?
Sorry if the above is unclear, all, but appreciate any insight! I'm dedicated to getting this stuff looking as good as possible and will probably start asking about RGB mods and things of that nature next... This is great fun when it isn't completely maddening!
metsallica
Member
I don't really know if I'm going to keep going with SCART, baby steps! I think for now I'm going to go with a breakout box, thank you for cluing me in to the option. Looks like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200979482944 does exactly what I need, correct? The RGB adapter for the XRGB mini is JP-21 and I need to send audio directly to my receiver. My SCART cable is NTSC/Euro. Looks like this box allows both cables to work together and sends audio!
Man, I've been following the NESRGB ever since I read it about it here and boy does it look awesome.
I just wish I could afford it lol.
$90 does seems kind of expensive and I would then have to get someone to hook it up all for me. I would also need to buy a SNES SCART cable (which doesn't come cheap) for my AV Famicom and a corresponding cable to connect SCART to BNC (for use with my Sony PVM).
I just wish I could afford it lol.
$90 does seems kind of expensive and I would then have to get someone to hook it up all for me. I would also need to buy a SNES SCART cable (which doesn't come cheap) for my AV Famicom and a corresponding cable to connect SCART to BNC (for use with my Sony PVM).
There's no point in not going with SCART. As I previously said in this thread it's what everyone has standardized to. You're only limiting your options if you go JP21, for instance there are very few JP21 switches out there. Just buy a SCART input cable for your XRGB and forget about JP21 forever.
The SNES/SFC is uniquely weird in that it requires different RGB wiring depending on NTSC or PAL. Naturally there was never such as thing as an NTSC SCART cable, so you can only use custom-made ones.
Nintendo did make an official NTSC JP21 cable back then, but it's super rare and hard to find outside Japan.
That must be why my old Super Famicom outputted in RGB and my UK SNES (same cable) didn't.
Never knew. Hm.
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