Support NeoGAF

[Shin Johnpv]

Speaking of the 8-way SCART Switch, I'm curious which systems everyone currently has via RGB. Mine would be:

1) NES - NESRGB installed, currently using the component adapter board instead
2) SNES - 1Chip original SNES
3) N64 - RGB-modded with amp
4) PS2 slim - for PS1/PS2 games
5) Sega Genesis
6) Sega Saturn
7) Open
8) Open

Does anyone actually have 8 systems to hook up? I think my sweet spot is 5

Here's where my set up is heading towards/is

RGB

1. SNES Mini (rgb modded)
2. Genesis 2, CD 2, 32 X
3. NeoGeo AES
4. Saturn
5. PCE Duo (well not yet just got it and getting it modded and recapped next month)
6. Master System (just waiting on the cable)
7. DC (currently S-Video going to order a toro in the next month or so)

Composite

1. NES (waiting on the HiDef-NES HDMI chip to be released to be modded to that)

S-Video

1. 3DO (considering an RGB mod)

Component

1. Gamecube
2. Playstation 2
3. Xbox

HDMI

1. Wii U
2. PS4
3. Xbox 360
4. N64 (once the UltraHDMI mod is in stock some where, it's s-video for now)

PS1 games get played on the PS2, and Wii games get played on the WIi U.

 

[Mega]

They definitely are worth emulating. But be warned, the games are rough. Forget all the conventions of gaming, they were not yet invented and Japanese gaming had yet to get a full grip on the market. Controls were not standardised and were all over the place, as were the difficulty. Fairness was a foreign word in gaming at the time.

I played some Apple II games when I was a kid (mostly educational!). Can't be that rough... right?

 

[televator]

Nevermind. Figured it out. Don't wanna leave misinformed ramblings to misinform others.

 

[Hawk269]

I am just getting back into Retro gaming and have had a lot of stuff boxed up. Was able to find a nice 27" Sony Tube TV, it only has S-Video and Standard A/V. I also am waiting for someone to respond about getting another Sony that has Component, 2 S-Video Ports, DVI and 2 standard RCA ports.

I was in Las Vegas for me and my wife's anniversary and found a Retro gaming store and was able to score a very good condition original Intellivision. Was also able to score some 2600 games and few more ColecoVision games.

Does anyone know if there are any mods for the ColecoVision or Intellivision to have a different input other than R/F?

I will post pics of the Retro Store and the Pinball Hall of Fame which was next door that had almost a 100 or so Pinball machines and about 20-30 arcade cabinet games. Had a great time!

 

[PumpkinSpice]

NintendoLife posted a "biscuits" (which I just assume means not very good?) review of the GC HDMI mod..

The de-interlacing options on this thing do not seem very good.

 

[BocoDragon]

NintendoLife posted a "biscuits" (which I just assume means not very good?) review of the GC HDMI mod..

The de-interlacing options on this thing do not seem very good.

Hate to say it, but it's a shame he's showing off a PAL Gamecube.

I'm sure the de-interlacing is nice when you've never had anything better... but the rest of the world has been in progressive since the beginning. Would be nice to see how that pretties up.

Plus any review of an HDMI Gamecube should probably look at the GB Player. That's the real killer app for those of us who are already fine with using Wii component cables or Wii U Nintendo't.

 

[televator]

NintendoLife posted a "biscuits" (which I just assume means not very good?) review of the GC HDMI mod..

The de-interlacing options on this thing do not seem very good.

I'm perplexed... Why does the mod not force true 480p? Either way the deinterlacing option is kinda obsolete when there are ways to force real 480p. This is so fucking weird.

Edit: Oh PAL games are gimped. Welp. The HDMI mod ought to be more magical for NTSC games. I'd wait for a review featuring NTSC games before making a judgement call.

 

[Mega]

I'm perplexed... Why does the mod not force true 480p? Either way the deinterlacing option is kinda obsolete when there are ways to force real 480p. This is so fucking weird.

Same here, I thought I was missing something. This mod seems pretty lackluster.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Why waste that mod on a PAL setup?

 

[D.Lo]

Biscuits means good in this context.

Why waste that mod on a PAL setup?

PAL cube is perfectly capable of 480p, so the Cube itself doesn't matter. Add a chip and it is the best model as it also does RGB. It's just that PAL software uses the 'B button switch' to change between 576i and 480i. Many games can be forced to 480p (or even 576p) in software anyway.

It kind of goes back to TV tech of the times, basically TVs hit market primarily for broadcast playback, and basically no PAL CRTs do 480p, because the PAL standard has always been superior and didn't have the flicker issues of NTSC, of which 480p was a remedy. So with no noticeable improvement for most things for PAL, 480p wasn't a selling point (in fact for broadcast video it looks worse than 576i because it's lower resolution - you'd need 576p) and therefore manufacturers didn't bother with it. And then since the TVs didn't do it, almost no game software from the CRT era does either.

 

[BocoDragon]

PAL cube is perfectly capable of 480p, so the Cube itself doesn't matter. Add a chip and it is the best model as it also does RGB. It's just that PAL software uses the 'B button switch' to change between 576i and 480p. Many games can be forced to 480p (or even 576p) in software anyway.

It kind of goes back to TV tech of the times, basically TVs hit market primarily for broadcast playback, and basically no PAL CRTs do 480p, because the PAL standard has always been superior and didn't have the flicker issues of NTSC, of which 480p was a remedy. So with no noticeable improvement for most things for PAL, 480p wasn't a selling point and therefore manufacturers didn't bother with it. And then since the TVs didn't do it, almost no game software from the CRT era does either.

It's too bad. Even in North America, 480p was relatively niche in the CRT days, but they still gave us the option.

 

[Peagles]

Why waste that mod on PAL games?

Fixed.

 

[Chinner]

I know a scart switch is going to be a must, but is there something similar for audio?

 

[Peagles]

I know a scart switch is going to be a must, but is there something similar for audio?

SCART carries audio too. I just split it out between my switch and display.

 

[D.Lo]

It's too bad. Even in North America, 480p was relatively niche in the CRT days, but they still gave us the option.

Nintendo had the option at any time to add 480p to games, but given they probably only sold only a few hundred component cables to the region they realised it was pointless, business wise. PS2 games barely even had 480i options, a super pain given the terrible PAL conversions on that console. A mod chip was borderline required for PS2.

 

[Chinner]

SCART carries audio too. I just split it out between my switch and display.

I'm guessing BNC doesn't carry sound though?

 

[baphomet]

I'm guessing BNC doesn't carry sound though?

BNC is just the connection type. It can carry anything.

 

[Chinner]

BNC is just the connection type. It can carry anything.

That's what I meant... So it's a non issue then, basically.

 

[televator]

Okay, I don't know why I got so confused about this. Probably because technically YUV2 doesn't exist and I was chasing a rabbit that was never there. lol

Wii and GC are YUY2 (not YUV2), (16bit) 4:2:2, 16-235 component.

White and black range is a match for WiiU's limited RGB. So Wii and GC games are probably also just processed like WiiU games as RGB limited, 4:4:4, uncompressed.

 

[Khaz]

PAL cube is perfectly capable of 480p, so the Cube itself doesn't matter. Add a chip and it is the best model as it also does RGB. It's just that PAL software uses the 'B button switch' to change between 576i and 480i. Many games can be forced to 480p (or even 576p) in software anyway.

How do you do that? Is the resulting 480p the same as the original NTSC 480p?

 

[D.Lo]

How do you do that? Is the resulting 480p the same as the original NTSC 480p?

Swiss, and yes. Basically it works on most games with a 480i mode.

Also can be done on the Wii and Wii U via HD Loader. I run my PAL games at 480p that way on the Wii U these days.

 

[elmalloc]

I found a guy on ebay with a massive collection of mint games/consoles that he bought new and either opened and didn't play (which I've done many times) or are still new. He's selling most of it off.

I'm picking up a lot of mint games from him at a good price (no disc scratches/etc), but I'm now venturing into the GBA realm. I bought a GBA player for the gamecube.

Now I'm interested in the best way to get video out of that device, I await the NTSC GC-Video reviews. I'd like to play Zelda: minish cap through, and I'm looking for GBAs now to play Zelda Four Swords adventure appropriatley.

 

[Khaz]

Swiss, and yes. Basically it works on most games with a 480i mode.

Also can be done on the Wii and Wii U via HD Loader. I run my PAL games at 480p that way on the Wii U these days.

Oh, it doesn't work with the original disc on the Wii? I don't have a Gamecube.

 

[D.Lo]

Oh, it doesn't work with the original disc on the Wii? I don't have a Gamecube.

I haven't tried, but I assume it does too, no reason why not.

 

[Madao]

I found a guy on ebay with a massive collection of mint games/consoles that he bought new and either opened and didn't play (which I've done many times) or are still new. He's selling most of it off.

I'm picking up a lot of mint games from him at a good price (no disc scratches/etc), but I'm now venturing into the GBA realm. I bought a GBA player for the gamecube.

Now I'm interested in the best way to get video out of that device, I await the NTSC GC-Video reviews. I'd like to play Zelda: minish cap through, and I'm looking for GBAs now to play Zelda Four Swords adventure appropriatley.

for Four Swords Adventures (the GC game) you only need GBAs if you're doing multiplayer. 1P mode is playable with a GC pad.
on the hardware side, best way seems to be HDMI mod followed by official Component cables. both are gonna cost you quite a bit for different reasons. best cheap cable is S-Video or RGB (depends on your region and equipment).
on the software side, you use GBI regular, LL or ULL. all of them are better than the regular GBP software but require a way to load homebrew (either modded GC or a softmod).

Oh, it doesn't work with the original disc on the Wii? I don't have a Gamecube.

I haven't tried, but I assume it does too, no reason why not.

Nintendont can force 480p on PAL games too. i've tried it on Wii and it worked (according to the FM since it shows what type of signal it is getting)
Nintendont has an option to load physical games but i don't have any PAL games to test if it works that way too.

 

[Khaz]

Nintendont can force 480p on PAL games too. i've tried it on Wii and it worked (according to the FM since it shows what type of signal it is getting)
Nintendont has an option to load physical games but i don't have any PAL games to test if it works that way too.

I've tested a bit, and I can say that it only work for games that have a 60Hz option. Games that don't, like Pikmin 1, Beyond Good and Evil, and XIII just won't display anything, even if 576i is selected in Swiss. Original game discs on Wii.

 

[Peagles]

That's what I meant... So it's a non issue then, basically.

Pretty much. My setup goes like...

Consoles -> SCART cables -> Switch -> SCART to BNC cable -> RGBS lines to PVM / LR Audio lines to speakers.

 

[Pancakes R Us]

Thought I'd post this on Neogaf since info about this is scarce and there might be people in the same situation as I am.

What I'm trying to do: Get an unmodded PAL N64 to work with a HDMI PC Monitor. I typically play it on my CRT in the bedroom but I wanted to get it working on a LCD PC Monitor in the study mostly because I spend more time in there. While modding the system would be ideal, I simply couldn't justify spending that much plus I'd need to ship my childhood console to the US and I'd be distraught if it got lost. So I decided to go down the cheap-ass route and find a simple/quick easy solution. I tested both PAL and NTSC games (using a region converter). There wasn't much info about these video converters to go by apart from a couple of paragraphs on other forums and some youtube/amazon comments.

So for my first test I decided to buy a cheap AV to HDMI converter to start things off. Outcome? It's AV Composite so I wasn't expecting a fantastic picture quality. PAL games worked fine on it. Picture looks about the same as you'd get on a normal CRT using composite. Slightly darker perhaps but it's passable. NTSC games were horrible. Picture quality looked worse. muddy colours. a bit more blurry. and the screen was mis-aligned to the far right. Half the picture was missing. Some games allowed you to align the screen but - let's be honest - that's a pain in the ass to do everytime and other games don't have this option. Horrible stuff. Mind you, this could be just my PC monitor. Didn't bother to try it on anything else. Verdict: If all you're interested in is playing PAL games with composite cables then you can't go wrong with this. Don't expect anything great with the picture aside from the fact that your games will appear on an lcd screen.

After that, I figured that I could perhaps try another converter and invest in a S-Video cable since you guys say it's worth it. I managed to find an ebay seller from Sweden that made decent PAL N64 S-video cables for a reasonable price so I went with it. HOLY SHIT, S-Video on a CRT looks unbelievably great. I refuse to go back to shitty AV cable now. Colour so vibrant! Picture so crisp! It's definitely worth the money ppl. Alongside the S-Video cable, I purchased my second converter (This time an S-Video to HDMI). Outcome? The previous NTSC games issue has been resolved...sadly using the composite cables This thing was able to handle NTSC and PAL games on composite without any issues. However, S-Video on this thing is a fucking joke! Both PAL and NTSC games showed grainy/blurry picture quality and there's this horrible white ghosting/smudge effect. Being that it could've been many factors to this, I took the liberty of trying this thing on the LCD TV in the living room which had a native S-Video port. With the S-Video cable plugged straight into the TV worked like a charm. ha, still can't get over how great it looks in S-Video. The converter though still looked like shit and that horrible smudge/ghosting issue was present.

I've included pictures here just for comparison's sake. Please excuse the dust particles:



So crisp. So vibrant. Thank you Swedish dude on ebay for this! I'll now remember Sweden for hot chicks and premium N64 analogue video cables.



Looks at the stars. That ghosting... Ugh, just...yuck!


Verdict: If you got a sweet S-Video and you want to use that bad boy on a LCD monitor/TV that doesn't have an S-Video port then avoid this like the fucking plague. If you want a converter that handles NTSC and PAL games on a PAL console using AV composite then this should do the trick but it's not worth it to be honest.

So where do I go from here? I've picked up one last converter that I've heard (from one youtube video) that might actually work on an N64 using S Video but I'm highly doubtful. I'll let you guys know how I get along if anyone is interested. Like I said, I struggled to find any info about this so hopefully this'll come in use to someone out there. If this third attempt turns out to be a dud too then I'll just have to move the heavy CRT to the study and learn my lesson haha.

Moral to the story? Stick to CRT or invest in modding your N64. At least these two options will eradicate any headaches and disappointments Oh, and invest in a good S-video cable. Best decision you'll ever make.

Thanks for this very informative post. I've never used S-video but do have a port on the back of my 23" Samsung LCD TV back from 2006 that may come in handy for something one day. I'll definitely keep the Swedish seller in mind.

Can you please tell me what kind of mod you're using on your system to play PAL and NTSC U games?

 

[SteHitch]

Hi all.

Just managed to pick up a sweet Sony PVM 20L2 for the games room and was wondering if someone could help me with a question on the cables.

From what I can see there are two to choose from, the standard JP21 to BNC breakout cable and then the same cable that has a sync cleaner circuit, which is double the price.

Is the second one worth buying or will I be fine with the standard one?

 

[Peagles]

Hi all.

Just managed to pick up a sweet Sony PVM 20L2 for the games room and was wondering if someone could help me with a question on the cables.

From what I can see there are two to choose from, the standard JP21 to BNC breakout cable and then the same cable that has a sync cleaner circuit, which is double the price.

Is the second one worth buying or will I be fine with the standard one?

Standard is usually fine, as long as you get a decent quality one.

Also don't touch JP21 if you're using SCART for everything else. Just checking lol.

 

[SteHitch]

Standard is usually fine, as long as you get a decent quality one.

Also don't touch JP21 if you're using SCART for everything else. Just checking lol.

Thanks for the response. Sorry, yeah I just quickly scanned the listing and typed it in, I meant SCART of course

Great, thanks for that. What would be the benefit of the sync cleaner circuit exactly? Usually when these cables are double the price it is with good reason. Is it just something that is required if the standard of the monitor is not so high? From what I have read the 20L2 is a pretty good one (hopefully).

 

[Peagles]

Thanks for the response. Sorry, yeah I just quickly scanned the listing and typed it in, I meant SCART of course

Great, thanks for that. What would be the benefit of the sync cleaner circuit exactly? Usually when these cables are double the price it is with good reason. Is it just something that is required if the standard of the monitor is not so high? From what I have read the 20L2 is a pretty good one (hopefully).

To be honest I've only known of people buying them when they're having sync issues and have tried almost everything else. They can be hard to pin down so often a sync cleaning cable is an attempt to fix that.

And yeh the 20L2 should be good, I use its baby sister (14L2) and I love it!

 

[SteHitch]

To be honest I've only known of people buying them when they're having sync issues and have tried almost everything else. They can be hard to pin down so often a sync cleaning cable is an attempt to fix that.

And yeh the 20L2 should be good, I use its baby sister (14L2) and I love it!

That's great. Thanks a lot. Can't wait to see it in action!

 

[Mega]

I found a guy on ebay with a massive collection of mint games/consoles that he bought new and either opened and didn't play (which I've done many times) or are still new. He's selling most of it off.

I'm picking up a lot of mint games from him at a good price (no disc scratches/etc), but I'm now venturing into the GBA realm. I bought a GBA player for the gamecube.

Now I'm interested in the best way to get video out of that device, I await the NTSC GC-Video reviews. I'd like to play Zelda: minish cap through, and I'm looking for GBAs now to play Zelda Four Swords adventure appropriatley.

Gamecube component cable, Datel's SD Media Launcher, 2GB SD card (not SDHC), Game Boy Interface.
http://uk.codejunkies.com/Products/SD-Media-Launcher__EF000580.aspx
http://www.gc-forever.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2782

I have this setup except on s-video for the time being and GBI ULL.

I need to try Nintendon't on Wii. Forced 480p for 480i GC games sounds amazing. Recently bought RE3 and wasn't thrilled with the lack of a progressive mode.

 

[Timu]

GForced 480p for 480i GC games sounds amazing.

It's a lifesaver man...480i just disgusts me so this is a welcome change. You can find a list of 480p games by searching Nintendon't Compatibility.

 

[televator]

It's a lifesaver man...480i just disgusts me so this is a welcome change. You can find a list of 480p games by searching Nintendon't Compatibility.

The widescreen feature even works better than Swiss on GC.

 

[speedlolita]

I use a Cube via 480i and it is perfectly fine. I even somewhat like 480i, 1080i can go away though.

 

[Timu]

The widescreen feature even works better than Swiss on GC.

It does? Well, that's even better!

I use a Cube via 480i and it is perfectly fine. I even somewhat like 480i, 1080i can go away though.

This is why I don't like it:

It even looks worse for 2D games. Plus I have to deinterlace with an upscaler to even get 60 FPS to work through my capture card.

 

[televator]

It does? Well, that's even better!

This is why I don't like it:

It even looks worse for 2D games. Plus I have to deinterlace with an upscaler to even get 60 FPS to work through my capture card.

Exactly. Nice capture of what scourge legacy of interlaced video. Is a real struggle trying to get interlaced video looking nice on fixed pixel displays. You either have blend the fields which most scalers do a terrible job at, or just put them together and live with the combing effect as sen in that screen if you want to keep sharp details.

 

[Khaz]

I was about to say that it's only on flat-panel displays though. Yes, if you're using a modern screen then interlaced isn't great for you. But on a CRT it's not that bad. I only notice the interlacing on still pictures because they're kind of vibrating, but during gameplay I'm cool with it.

 

[speedlolita]

I was about to say that it's only on flat-panel displays though. Yes, if you're using a modern screen then interlaced isn't great for you. But on a CRT it's not that bad. I only notice the interlacing on still pictures because they're kind of vibrating, but during gameplay I'm cool with it.

Yeah. I'm well aware of how 480i works but on my PVM it is perfectly acceptable. Nostalgic even.

 

[Timu]

I was about to say that it's only on flat-panel displays though. Yes, if you're using a modern screen then interlaced isn't great for you. But on a CRT it's not that bad. I only notice the interlacing on still pictures because they're kind of vibrating, but during gameplay I'm cool with it.

I don't game on CRTs or even TVs for matter(I gave up TVs late last gen), everything is hooked through my capture cards so it's a lot more noticeable and annoying, not to mention 2D games suffer even more with it. 480i is the only res I need an upscaler for to make me tolerate it through deinterlacing.

 

[geniusbits]

I was about to say that it's only on flat-panel displays though. Yes, if you're using a modern screen then interlaced isn't great for you. But on a CRT it's not that bad. I only notice the interlacing on still pictures because they're kind of vibrating, but during gameplay I'm cool with it.

I've been noticing the opposite, when playing Katamari Damacy it looks like it almost has scan lines during movement but looks stable when not moving.

 

[Timu]

I've been noticing the opposite, when playing Katamari Damacy it looks like it almost has scan lines during movement but looks stable when not moving.

That's exactly how I notice it...bad in motion, good in stills.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

It's really obvious on things like still text.

 

[socksfelloff]

It's really obvious on things like still text.

In my experience it really depends on the display ( speaking for crts)

My 27fs120 bounces and combs like a mother fucker.

My pvm is almost Perfect.


My test game for this is Melee. The character select screen has the shakes real bad and the fast movement shows combing on the characters something terrible. But as I stated above my pvm does an excellent job with it.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Looked up the specs for the PVM-20L2 online; looks like it's a bit too deep to fit on the bookshelf I want to put it on. That plus the $200 the seller wants means I'm probably gonna pass on it. If anyone in this thread is in the New Orleans area I can point you his way though.

 

[D.Lo]

In my experience it really depends on the display ( speaking for crts)

My 27fs120 bounces and combs like a mother fucker.

My pvm is almost Perfect.


My test game for this is Melee. The character select screen has the shakes real bad and the fast movement shows combing on the characters something terrible. But as I stated above my pvm does an excellent job with it.

Sounds like my findings as well. Goes for many things - screens with deeper tubes look better. The magnets enabled large but less deep TV tubes of the 90s/2000s were nice for TV cabinets but the death of good geometry and picture stability of all sorts.

 

[Mega]

Looked up the specs for the PVM-20L2 online; looks like it's a bit too deep to fit on the bookshelf I want to put it on. That plus the $200 the seller wants means I'm probably gonna pass on it. If anyone in this thread is in the New Orleans area I can point you his way though.

Another thing to consider... could the bookshelf have supported the weight safely? I have two monitors on the middle tier of a metal shelving rack but each tier supports 600 pounds. If your monitor protudes off the back a little it may not be so bad. One of mine is a deep BVM that hangs several inches off the back of the shelf. I just made sure it was of no concern... nearly all the weight is still firmly resting on the shelf.

 

[missile]

Sounds like my findings as well. Goes for many things - screens with deeper tubes look better. The magnets enabled large but less deep TV tubes of the 90s/2000s were nice for TV cabinets but the death of good geometry and picture stability of all sorts.

Electrostatic deflection would be better, technically, but it comes with its
own issues like length (see scopes) and high operating voltages to operate the
plates. Magnetic deflection can be made very good as well, but the cost would
go through the roof, I guess. Would be cool to know to what length the
producers of the studio monitors have gone to produce their better rasters.