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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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NOLA_Gaffer

NOLA_Gaffer

Banned
Got my Famicom and CRT set up and things are looking good. Next step is to get a A/V 4-way switch, a Dreamcast S-Video cable, and a RCA coupler, so I can extend the Famicom AV cables a bit. (The AV mod uses a 3.5mm to RCA cable, but I'm seeing mixed things about compatibility, so I'm unsure of which to buy.)

Jf8mylTl.jpg


XpBN53Rl.jpg


TbLfMlXl.jpg


OcvaKuHl.jpg


I think it's also time to sell off some of my old stuff. I'm starting to feel a bit hoardery.
 
S

SteHitch

Neo Member
I have kind of hit a snag today with the PVM, hoping someone can help me.

I ordered one of these cables and as it arrived to was excited to hook it up.

female%20scart%20to%20bnc%20breakout%20with%20rca%20sound%20www.retrogamingcables.co.uk-500x500.JPG


Tried my NES as I had also ordered one of these and all I get is a black and white image. I then tried my Mega Drive with a Scart cable I already had, same result - just black and white. Lastly I hooked up a PS2 with a Scart cable, there was colour but it was mostly red.

Any advice on what I am doing wrong?
 
K

Khaz

Member
SteHitch said:
Tried my NES as I had also ordered one of these and all I get is a black and white image. I then tried my Mega Drive with a Scart cable I already had, same result - just black and white. Lastly I hooked up a PS2 with a Scart cable, there was colour but it was mostly red.

Any advice on what I am doing wrong?
Click to expand...

You're using Composite. Your monitor doesn't have a PAL/NTSC demodulator so it can only show the non-encoded part of the signal, the luminance.

If you have an input for Composite specifically you could try it with the appropriate cable, otherwise there isn't much hope for the NES. You need to RGB mod it to have a colour picture on this monitor.

Your Genesis cable is also not an RGB one. Open it at the Scart end and check the pinout.

Check your PS2 system menu, I know Component and RGBS have incompatible pinout (not enough pins at the PS end resulting in shared ones) and using one setup with the other cable result in a mostly green picture or mostly pink picture.
 
T

TeaJay

Member
You can also try to use an RCA-BNC adapter plug. That's what I use if I want to hook my PAL NES to my PVM, and used it with my AV Famicom before I got an RGB one.

But then you of course need just a regular RCA cable for your NES, not that kind of scart cable.
 
Lightning Count

Lightning Count

Member
I just bought a Sony KV-29LS30U Trinitron CRT TV for my retro consoles, damn thing has got to weigh at least 60 pounds was a pain in the ass getting it up the stairs.
 
NOLA_Gaffer

NOLA_Gaffer

Banned
Lightning Count said:
I just bought a Sony KV-29LS30U Trinitron CRT TV for my retro consoles, damn thing has got to weigh at least 60 pounds was a pain in the ass getting it up the stairs.
Click to expand...

That's one of the nicer things about going with a smaller set, the 13" one I have is something like 15 pounds and I can easily move it around if necessary.
 
C

Coda

Member
NOLA_Gaffer said:
That's one of the nicer things about going with a smaller set, the 13" one I have is something like 15 pounds and I can easily move it around if necessary.
Click to expand...

Yeah I have a 20 inch now and I can still move it by myself with not much of a problem. Once you get to the 27 inch range things start to get intense.
 
R

RadarScope1

Member
While we're on the topic of sizes, are there really no pro monitors larger than 20 inches besides the XM29 from NEC? Sony, JVC or any other company never made ANY 24, 25, 27 inch models...?
 
M

Mega

Banned
televator said:
Don't know if it's appropriate to say here, but I'm selling my GC component cable. Thing is minty in box.
Click to expand...

I would have bought from you but I purchased one literally days ago at a relatively good price from another Gaffer. Waited months for a decent deal and didn't know when I would see one again at non-ebay prices!

I don't mean to put him on the spot but elmalloc is looking at HD CRTs and he did ask here about the best way to display games on the Gameboy Player. :p
 
T

televator

Member
entremet said:
Why are you selling it? Satisfied with Wii component?
Click to expand...

No, hell no. lol Nah, I got my hacked WiiU to play GC and Wii games. Once the HDMI mod comes out, I'll mod the GC for gameboy color and advance games.

Mega said:
I would have bought from you but I purchased one literally days ago at a relatively good price from another Gaffer. Waited months for a decent deal and didn't know when I would see one again at non-ebay prices!

I don't mean to put him on the spot but elmalloc is looking at HD CRTs and he did ask here about the best way to display games on the Gameboy Player. :p
Click to expand...

It's all good. Maybe I'll shoot a PM their way and see if they'll bite. I'd prefer selling to a Gaffer than more than anyone.
 
I

InfiniteNine

Rolling Girl
If elmalloc isn't interested and you still have it when I get paid next I'd be interested in snatching it up from you!

All my money is going is being reserved for RGB modding this beautiful creature atm which is still being arranged.
Py9HCCQl.jpg


Also real life footage of a framemeister trying to make it look good via Composite:
 
M

Mega

Banned
InfiniteNine said:
If elmalloc isn't interested and you still have it when I get paid next I'd be interested in snatching it up from you!

All my money is going is being reserved for RGB modding this beautiful creature atm which is still being arranged.
Py9HCCQl.jpg
Click to expand...

Speaking of, someone in the BST thread is selling an RGB-modded Twin Famicom. I'd be all over that if I didn't already have a modded AV Famicom. The Twin Famis look fantastic.
 
I

InfiniteNine

Rolling Girl
Mega said:
Speaking of, someone in the BST thread is selling an RGB-modded Twin Famicom. I'd be all over that if I didn't already have a modded AV Famicom. The Twin Famis look fantastic.
Click to expand...

Oh right, I was actually offered that! He said it was the one with the purple trim though which I didn't like at all so I turned him down. lol
This is what I thought it was:
88257-%5BBIOS%5D_Sharp_Twin_Famicom_%28Japan%29-1.jpg
Click to expand...
I probably would have gotten his if I actually saw it, but I got the red Twin I wanted at a really good price pre-serviced. $120!
So this path might be cheaper for me.
 
P

Peltz

Member
SheepyGuy said:
Am I alone in feeling like the FM does a terrible job with composite?
Click to expand...

That depends... what did you expect?

These are iPhone shots of my PVM displaying composite signals (click to enlarge):
10887170_10100922370314400_7736438166741412476_o.jpg

10830580_10100922370344340_8597706564473128432_o.jpg

1655148_10100890119320650_5580701301724235750_o.jpg

10648881_10100890114245820_1432917062337172945_o.jpg

10548087_10100885176770560_8755774037227492971_o.jpg
Click to expand...

It's better, but not clean like RGB or even close to S-Video. There's a lot of dot crawl in some games/sequences.

And if you look at the shots of Mother and Megaman 2, you can see the some rainbowing issues and ugliness that the framemeister reproduces.

Neither the framemeister, nor any legit comb filter is ever going to totally clean up a composite image to make it look good by today's standards. We just notice it more today than we did back then because we live in the HDMI age and don't have to deal with that anymore.
 
T

Timu

Member
Peltz said:
That depends... what did you expect?

These are iPhone shots of my PVM displaying composite signals (click to enlarge):


It's better, but not clean at all in motion. There's a lot of dot crawl in some games/sequences.
Click to expand...
The last 2 pics show off what I hate about it!!!
 
I

InfiniteNine

Rolling Girl
mikespit1200 said:
I was looking for 350 + shipping. It's a pretty fair price considering the cost of fami twins, nearby install and the scart cable. And it ships from USA!
Click to expand...

Hope you get it sold soon! You should have showed me a picture I would have bought it from you on Saturday instead of getting this red one. lol
 
C

Coda

Member
InfiniteNine said:
Oh right, I was actually offered that! He said it was the one with the purple trim though which I didn't like at all so I turned him down. lol
This is what I thought it was:

I probably would have gotten his if I actually saw it, but I got the red Twin I wanted at a really good price pre-serviced. $120!
So this path might be cheaper for me.
Click to expand...

Man the Twin Famicom is a slick piece of gaming hardware.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
The XRGB-3 can actually produce a good looking picture from a composite source with very specific tweaking:

- B1 mode (480p VGA output only)
- scanline filter at 100%
- If the colors are messed up, increase/decrease the dot clock setting slightly, then return it to the default value.

For whatever reason, the XRGB-3's B1 mode seems to handle either the luminance+sync or the chrominance of a composite signal perfectly, but at the expense of the other. Fiddling with the dot clock setting fixes one but breaks the other.

So what you can do is mess with it until the colors are perfect, but this distorts the image in a way that makes every other line in the picture jut out in a jagged, ugly pattern. However, if you crank the scanlines up to 100%, those distorted lines actually get completely covered up, leaving you with a really solid picture overall.

I should probably take pictures sometime.
 
T

Timu

Member
Sixfortyfive said:
The XRGB-3 can actually produce a good looking picture from a composite source with very specific tweaking:

- B1 mode (480p VGA output only)
- scanline filter at 100%
- If the colors are messed up, increase/decrease the dot clock setting slightly, then return it to the default value.

For whatever reason, the XRGB-3's B1 mode seems to handle either the luminance+sync or the chrominance of a composite signal perfectly, but at the expense of the other. Fiddling with the dot clock setting fixes one but breaks the other.

So what you can do is mess with it until the colors are perfect, but this distorts the image in a way that makes every other line in the picture jut out in a jagged, ugly pattern. However, if you crank the scanlines up to 100%, those distorted lines actually get completely covered up, leaving you with a really solid picture overall.

I should probably take pictures sometime.
Click to expand...
That is a lot of work and the fact it requires a $300+ upscaler pushes it further!=O
 
M

Madao

Member
televator said:
No, hell no. lol Nah, I got my hacked WiiU to play GC and Wii games. Once the HDMI mod comes out, I'll mod the GC for gameboy color and advance games.



It's all good. Maybe I'll shoot a PM their way and see if they'll bite. I'd prefer selling to a Gaffer than more than anyone.
Click to expand...

i just looked at ebay prices and it's so tempting to toss the GC cables to get the HDMI mod since the cables would pay the mod basically.

the one thing stopping me is the difference in quality. with N64, the jump from S-Video/RGB seems to be larger than jumping from Component to HDMI, especially since GC Component was pretty good already.
 
T

Timu

Member
Madao said:
the one thing stopping me is the difference in quality. with N64, the jump from S-Video/RGB seems to be larger than jumping from Component to HDMI, especially since GC Component was pretty good already.
Click to expand...
Wait, is RGB for N64 that much of a leap against svideo? I heard some say the leap isn't that big!
 
M

Madao

Member
Timu said:
Wait, is RGB for N64 that much of a leap against svideo? I heard some say the leap isn't that big!
Click to expand...

no, i meant the leap from S-Video and RGB to HDMI. the leap between S-Video and RGB isn't that big.

though i haven't really done a proper comparison between them. once i get the HDMI one, i'll try a comparison between all modes to see how big the leaps are under the same conditions. RGB does look better though since every time i hooked a console with S-Video, it looked a bit weird and i ended up going back to the other connection (at one point i wanted to free one slot but that involved hooking up either N64 or GC with S-video)
 
M

Mega

Banned
Timu said:
Wait, is RGB for N64 that much of a leap against svideo? I heard some say the leap isn't that big!
Click to expand...

It's worth getting because it's very affordable and there is some improvement. But no, it's not a big difference compared to other systems.
 
T

televator

Member
Madao said:
i just looked at ebay prices and it's so tempting to toss the GC cables to get the HDMI mod since the cables would pay the mod basically.

the one thing stopping me is the difference in quality. with N64, the jump from S-Video/RGB seems to be larger than jumping from Component to HDMI, especially since GC Component was pretty good already.
Click to expand...

It depends. My plasma is great at upscaling 480p YPbPr with no major artifacts besides a bit of "softness" to the picture. It's still better than the XRGB. However, give it a digital signal and it's all razor sharp. It is....
Magneto-perfection.gif

It was $1,600 well spent.

On a side note: I wonder if the WiiU reads and outputs Wii games like it does with U games (RGB limited which certain TVs can convert to 4:4:4), or YUY2; 4:2:2. The WiiU limited RGB thread was inconclusive on this. Unfortunately, my TV's 4:4:4 mode only works with with 1080p sources... Oddly regardless of the chroma sub sampling of the source. So I can't put it to the test. I hope TVs in the future will implement such a feature more intelligently by letting you set this (and only letting you set this) on actual 4:4:4 sources regardless of resolution, analog or digital.

I'm getting off on a tangent, but this is the thread for PQ discussion. Anyway these questions led me to realize that RGB color space is probably wasted on most modern TVs. My set only sees the benefit of that mode from a PC or consoles set to RGB while playing a 1080p game (Okami HD is fucking god level).
 
T

Timu

Member
Madao said:
no, i meant the leap from S-Video and RGB to HDMI. the leap between S-Video and RGB isn't that big.

though i haven't really done a proper comparison between them. once i get the HDMI one, i'll try a comparison between all modes to see how big the leaps are under the same conditions. RGB does look better though since every time i hooked a console with S-Video, it looked a bit weird and i ended up going back to the other connection (at one point i wanted to free one slot but that involved hooking up either N64 or GC with S-video)
Click to expand...
I would like to see that.

Mega said:
It's worth getting because it's very affordable and there is some improvement. But no, it's not a big difference compared to other systems.
Click to expand...
Hmm, I'll think about it, but so far it doesn't look like I really need it badly though I may look into it in the future.
 
elmalloc

elmalloc

Member
If you're going to drop your GC component cables I might buy them.Do you have a price on GC-Video? Do you have a release date? I don't have an answer to either.
 
S

SteHitch

Neo Member
Zello said:
You can also try to use an RCA-BNC adapter plug. That's what I use if I want to hook my PAL NES to my PVM, and used it with my AV Famicom before I got an RGB one.

But then you of course need just a regular RCA cable for your NES, not that kind of scart cable.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I will look into these. Which ones do you have and where did you get them?
 
S

SteHitch

Neo Member
Khaz said:
You're using Composite. Your monitor doesn't have a PAL/NTSC demodulator so it can only show the non-encoded part of the signal, the luminance.

If you have an input for Composite specifically you could try it with the appropriate cable, otherwise there isn't much hope for the NES. You need to RGB mod it to have a colour picture on this monitor.

Your Genesis cable is also not an RGB one. Open it at the Scart end and check the pinout.

Check your PS2 system menu, I know Component and RGBS have incompatible pinout (not enough pins at the PS end resulting in shared ones) and using one setup with the other cable result in a mostly green picture or mostly pink picture.
Click to expand...

Thanks for replying.

Yeah I didn't realise it would be an RGB only display. Weirdly the colour is fine when I change it from RGB to Y Cb/Pb Cr/Pr.

I have ordered an RGB cable for the Mega Drive so hopefully it should be fine. I should also look into modding the NES too.
 
T

televator

Member
elmalloc said:
If you're going to drop your GC component cables I might buy them.Do you have a price on GC-Video? Do you have a release date? I don't have an answer to either.
Click to expand...

I don't think there's any solid info on a specific date or price at this point - aside from them trying to make them more cost effective. Check your PMs.
 
M

Mega

Banned
SteHitch said:
Thanks for replying.

Yeah I didn't realise it would be an RGB only display. Weirdly the colour is fine when I change it from RGB to Y Cb/Pb Cr/Pr.

I have ordered an RGB cable for the Mega Drive so hopefully it should be fine. I should also look into modding the NES too.
Click to expand...

It's not a RGB-only display. If it's a standard PVM there should be input connectors for composite and S-video. Get your NES composite cable and connect it to the single connector (on input 1?) with a RCA-to-BNC adapter. There are cheap packs of those adapters on amazon and eBay.
 
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