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[NOLA_Gaffer]

Asked the seller of a previously mentioned Sony PVM & Olympus-branded PVM if he had anything else on hand and he said he'll get back to me.

I wasn't ready to buy another CRT so soon but considering he's selling the first two for $30 and $60 respectively if he has anything worthwhile I might make the trip up there after all.

 

[Peagles]

Thanks for replying.

Yeah I didn't realise it would be an RGB only display. Weirdly the colour is fine when I change it from RGB to Y Cb/Pb Cr/Pr.

I have ordered an RGB cable for the Mega Drive so hopefully it should be fine. I should also look into modding the NES too.

Like Mega said, it won't be RGB only, the problem is it sounds like you're trying to plug composite into the RGB input.

On PVMs it's often just marked Line A/Line B instead of being labelled composite, if that helps.

Also hehe NOLA got the bug

 

[TeaJay]

Here's a pic from the same PVM model I have:

This is how you hook up composite with the aforementioned RCA-BNC plugs. The lower connections are for RGB.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Also hehe NOLA got the bug

It's not so much the bug as it is future-proofing myself. I only have the space for a 14" right now, but in a year's time I'll likely have room for a 20" model, and who knows how much rarer or more expensive these things will get in that time?

I'm thinking of stashing away at least a high-end one somewhere for future use (one that has RGB/component) and maybe one of the standard ones as well. (Composite/S-Video Only)

I just need to find the time to bring my SNES to the seller and make sure whichever one I decide on is working okay, unless someone can recommend a different tool with which to test with?

 

[Peagles]

It's not so much the bug as it is future-proofing myself. I only have the space for a 14" right now, but in a year's time I'll likely have room for a 20" model, and who knows how much rarer or more expensive these things will get in that time?

I'm thinking of stashing away at least a high-end one somewhere for future use (one that has RGB/component) and maybe one of the standard ones as well. (Composite/S-Video Only)

I just need to find the time to bring my SNES to the seller and make sure whichever one I decide on is working okay, unless someone can recommend a different tool with which to test with?

Spoiler

It's okay. We all went through the denial stage

Good idea. I did the same thing actually with a 20" I found and now that I'm moving to my new place I finally have space for it. Feels good!

Do you have a Mega Drive yet with RGB cable? That can be good if you have an Everdrive to run the 240p test suite on it.

 

[televator]

If anyone is curious about color spaces and the processes that go into them. This is the most revealing thing I've read on it so far.

Feeding a device RGB doesn't mean it doesn't get down sampled at some point. Your own HDTV can convert the RGB signal from a Framemeister into a lossy format, before displaying it back again in RGB. It can be terrible at it or good, but it's a little funny that what you put into a TV isn't necessarily what you get.

 

[oneida]

It's a huge difference. I run the same setup, pretty much, except I went from composite.

The only thing worth mentioning is that if you're using the same converter box I am, you might need to crack it open and adjust the color output.

This is the guy: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XSSDPO/?tag=neogaf0e-20

My games were blue/green saturated so I tinkered about with it, getting awesome results now.

Before:

After:


Also, here is a shot over composite, it's ugly as sin.

what are you using to extract audio with this converter?

 

[Mega]

If anyone is curious about color spaces and the processes that go into them. This is the most revealing thing I've read on it so far.

Feeding a device RGB doesn't mean it doesn't get down sampled at some point. Your own HDTV can convert the RGB signal from a Framemeister into a lossy format, before displaying it back again in RGB. It can be terrible at it or good, but it's a little funny that what you put into a TV isn't necessarily what you get.

I'll have to give that a read. Long ago I took art classes and got neck deep into computer display profiles and color spaces. It was endless, obsessive quest for color accuracy in between what I saw in real life, the display and prints (printer profiles too!). I went a little mad and have since forgotten almost all of it.

 

[Ramune]

I'm tempted to go buy both and stick 'em in a closet for whenever mine crap out.

I just don't know if I want to spend that much time on the road...gah.

I can vouch for the Olympus CRT. Snagged 2 from work a few years ago and the picture is gorgeous (thankfully the cases they were used for were sparse and they had more recent dates). And the two RGB/Component inputs really come in handy. I'd post pics but I'm at work atm. See if you can test it before buying.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

I can vouch for the Olympus CRT. Snagged 2 from work a few years ago and the picture is gorgeous (thankfully the cases they were used for were sparse and they had more recent dates). And the two RGB/Component inputs really come in handy. I'd post pics but I'm at work atm. See if you can test it before buying.

I'll definitely bring my SNES and it's S-Video cable, but I don't really have anything else better than that to use as a testing ground.

Hopefully my cable holds up this time around.

 

[Ramune]

I'll definitely bring my SNES and it's S-Video cable, but I don't really have anything else better than that to use as a testing ground.

Hopefully my cable holds up this time around.

Thats what I used before getting RGB cables for my SNES. Picture still looks great, you'll love it! SNES and RGB however might not make the difference apparent (unless you have the right console), but it's worth it.

I had RGB cables before I had my monitors, and bought my Genesis and Sonic 2 to work to test them out with. That game is a good test of not just 240p but 480i (2p split screen). It was gorgeous, as if I was looking at emulation on a PC monitor.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Thats what I used before getting RGB cables for my SNES. Picture still looks great, you'll love it! SNES and RGB however might not make the difference apparent (unless you have the right console), but it's worth it.

I had RGB cables before I had my monitors, and bought my Genesis and Sonic 2 to work to test them out with. That game is a good test of not just 240p but 480i (2p split screen). It was gorgeous, as if I was looking at emulation on a PC monitor.

I don't think I'm ever going quite make the jump to RGB. The complete cable setup for any console seems to be $100 and that's not into account the $200+ cost of the RGB hardware and installation service for the consoles that require it.

 

[televator]

I'll have to give that a read. Long ago I took art classes and got neck deep into computer display profiles and color spaces. It was endless, obsessive quest for color accuracy in between what I saw in real life, the display and prints (printer profiles too!). I went a little mad and have since forgotten almost all of it.

Well, I feel better. I'm not the only super nerd here.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

So apparently the person on Craiglist that listed the PVM and the Olympus monitors has nine total--a bunch of different models.

I'm thinking maybe I might be regretting dropping $50 on that JVC this week.

Oh well, I can always pass it along to someone else I guess.

Edit: Looking over his or her pictures I'm seeing:

Olympus OEV203
Sony PVM-20N5U
Sony PVM-14L2MD

Plus another 20" Sony with a whole slew of ports and others that are out of focus, so I have no clue what they are.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

I don't think I'm ever going quite make the jump to RGB. The complete cable setup for any console seems to be $100 and that's not into account the $200+ cost of the RGB hardware and installation service for the consoles that require it.

This isn't as expensive as you think, honestly. Unless you want to go fully shielded on your cables you can get very good ones for like $20-$30, and you can share among compatible systems (Nintendo Multi-AV, PS AV, etc).

Learning some very basic soldering skills can get you RGB modded almost all systems that need it, except NES. Like $10 soldering iron, $2 solder, watch a youtube video to learn, test it out on something, and just go for it.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I don't think I'm ever going quite make the jump to RGB. The complete cable setup for any console seems to be $100 and that's not into account the $200+ cost of the RGB hardware and installation service for the consoles that require it.

Ordering all of the cables I needed for my consoles that had native RGB, including the adapter for my Framemeister was just a little over 100 bucks and that's cables for SNES, MS, Genesis, NeoGeo, Saturn, and Jaguar (don't have one yet but I'm hunting one down). Yeah some systems need modding but the ones that have native RGB outnumber the ones that don't.

It's more affordable than I think people realize. Yes it does get expensive if you're not on a PVM and need a framemeister, no denying that.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Is there a hierarchy of sorts to which PVMs are better than others? If I decide to check out those monitors I'd like to know at a glance which is the best of the pile.

 

[Mega]

There are many with some overlap in features/quality (late 1990s 20M2 = early 2000s 20L2). What matters is that the tube is not worn out or damaged, the picture is to your liking, the size is right and it has all the connections you need. A higher end PVM means it had the best features for broadcast monitoring or post production work, not for 240p games.

A BVM has the sharpest picture with thick scanlines, excellent color accuracy (for video, when tool calibrated), technically superior to any PVM and support for a bunch of input cards... but it doesn't necessarily translate to the best or most authentic video game picture quality for a lot of people.

I only have space set up at the moment for my two highest end monitors but wish I could set up my "lower quality" 14" PVM because N64 and certain 8/16/32-bit games look better on it. In that regard it's better and above the technically superior monitors. Heck, if I had to go with a lean, mean one monitor setup and get rid of everything else, I think the little PVM would be the keeper.

 

[Kawika]

There are many with some overlap in features/quality (late 1990s 20M2 = early 2000s 20L2). What matters is that the tube is not worn out or damaged, the picture is to your liking, the size is right and it has all the connections you need. A higher end PVM means it had the best features for broadcast monitoring or post production work, not for 240p games.

A BVM has the sharpest picture with thick scanlines, excellent color accuracy (for video, when tool calibrated), technically superior to any PVM and support for a bunch of input cards... but it doesn't necessarily translate to the best or most authentic video game picture quality for a lot of people.

I only have space set up at the moment for my two highest end monitors but wish I could set up my "lower quality" 14" PVM because N64 and certain 8/16/32-bit games look better on it. In that regard it's better and above the technically superior monitors. Heck, if I had to go with a lean, mean one monitor setup and get rid of everything else, I think the little PVM would be the keeper.

IIRC You have a 14M4U like me correct? That little thing is awesome.

 

[baphomet]

Is there a hierarchy of sorts to which PVMs are better than others? If I decide to check out those monitors I'd like to know at a glance which is the best of the pile.

Check for RGB inputs, Check for a high resolution tube, then check the manufacture date.

 

[Madao]

well, thanks to that Game Mode thread, i went and tested how much Game Mode affects my TV.

the results are interesting. basically, Game Mode just disables stuff on my TV and you can match it by disabling things manually. also, when all settings were equal, the lag was identical. i could only test 240p and 480i due to the equipment i have but on both signals the lag was the same with game mode on and off. i also found out my TV has 1 frame of lag for 240p and 2 for 480i. 480p should be 1 frame if it processes it identical to 240p but i can't test to be 100% sure (my CRT won't take progressive).
i also tested other things such as my receiver's passthrough and the FM.
my Receiver came out well since it doesn't add lag in passthrough mode. it also has a mode that processes but you can feel the lag without the need of any test. luckily anything can pass without processing (except 240p sadly since it doesn't even recognize it. it was almost too good to be true)
the FM adds around 1 frame of lag (i know it's known but seeing it manually is better overall). it's pretty bad when coupling 480i with the FM since i could see 3 frames of lag easily but luckily i have no games that depend on 480i since i can either do 240p or 480p. the FM is basically a "make things look pretty" box for me since my TV handles interlaced faster but looks quite bad.

i wanted to test more, including my HD consoles but i don't have a way to display them in HD and on the CRT at the same time and buying stuff just for that is kind of a waste.

 

[InfiniteNine]

Spent a few hours cleaning cartridges for now and testing all my games which all ran very well except for two:

Super Mario Bros.: Would only boot to grey when I first tested it and cleaned it a few times and when I finally got the game to run after the first stage it started artifacting like this:

Twin Bee: Sprites glitched on this one and it had the tip of the ship showing on the bottom of it, enemies constantly flickering, and clouds freaking out in general swapping top and bottom parts.

All of them are all cleaned up to work well now and played a few stages of Twin Bee and Mario to be sure.

 

[Madao]

that reminds me of crooked cartridge glitches on N64 games. maybe some dirt is obstructing a pin or part of the circuit is damaged.

 

[Peltz]

Is there a hierarchy of sorts to which PVMs are better than others? If I decide to check out those monitors I'd like to know at a glance which is the best of the pile.

Broadcast monitors vary a lot in many different ways. Different folks like different things.

Some people prefer super hi-res and super sharp pictures with thick black scanlines you'd get from the high end BVM line. Others like a nice soft yet clean image with thinner scanlines more akin to something they'd see at the arcade.

Some people like aperture grill, others prefer shadow mask. It's all really a matter of taste.

PVMs are not the end all be all, and I urge people in this thread to check out other brands. Yes, I use a PVM, but also love the Panasonic BT line and would prefer to own one of those if I could find a 20" model.

What I would recommend is to focus on getting something that you think looks cool, because in the end, it's really all subjective.

 

[D.Lo]

Broadcast monitors vary a lot in many different ways. Different folks like different things.

Some people prefer super hi-res and super sharp pictures with thick black scanlines you'd get from the high end BVM line. Others like a nice soft yet clean image with thinner scanlines more akin to something they'd see at the arcade.

Some people like aperture grill, others prefer shadow mask. It's all really a matter of taste.

PVMs are not the end all be all, and I urge people in this thread to check out other brands. Yes, I use a PVM, but also love the Panasonic BT line and would prefer to own one of those if I could find a 20" model.

What I would recommend is to focus on getting something that you think looks cool, because in the end, it's really all subjective.

Yep.

Here's a nice sharp Framemeister pic:

Looks pretty good huh? Sharp, nice scanlines,

But then, here's my soft PVM

Goddamn.

 

[TeaJay]

^^ If those would be my options, I would take the PVM 100%. I'm not against a Framemeister, but personally I don't like THAT sharp images.

 

[D.Lo]

It's kind of exaggerated for the effect, but it shows the value of a soft picture sometimes. Look how rounded the column looks!

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

what are you using to extract audio with this converter?

I use a cable like this, which includes RCA cables for audio.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-seller-S...CART-to-YUV-/161872722507?hash=item25b05dba4b

If you already have a SCART cable, you may want to order something like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Switchable-...782431?hash=item2100e2c55f:g:KzAAAOSwyQtV0fTu

I've never used one, however. Looks like it should suit your needs, though, and it's cheap enough.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Check for RGB inputs, Check for a high resolution tube, then check the manufacture date.

How would I know what has a high resolution tube?

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

yeah, even my non-special CRT has a much more pleasing picture than my framemeister. Input lag is roughly the same until you start getting into really really strict stuff (as I said earlier, only ran into this with Time Gal lol)

It's always gonna be a compromise with flat panels.

 

[missile]

Tuning the focus of a BVM can give you the right amount of sharpness for your
scanline-taste which may fall between a BVM and PVM. So it doesn't need to be
one or the other.

 

[Ramune]

Here's a few pics I took of the Olympus OEV203. I should really take more as these were taken with lesser cameras at the time (Vita and previous cell phone, except Outrun)

S-Video

RGB

And it looks MUCH better in person!

 

[Tarin02543]

Beautiful shots there.

 

[Huggers]

Picture type is definitely down to personal preference. I like big fuck off chunky scanlines on a crt. I can totally get on board with people who prefer a sharper looking modern image like from Kevtris's HDMI NES mod though

 

[Mega]

SOTN looks amazing on everything. The world needed (needs) more games like that.

PVMs are not the end all be all, and I urge people in this thread to check out other brands. Yes, I use a PVM, but also love the Panasonic BT line and would prefer to own one of those if I could find a 20" model. What I would recommend is to focus on getting something that you think looks cool, because in the end, it's really all subjective.

Sometimes it's not so subjective. I was excited to start Mario RPG after acquiring it from a Gaffer... it looks pretty bad on my BVM. That probably goes for a bunch of games with low-res prerendered assets on a sharp CRT (eg. Resident Evil). N64 looks significantly worse on a sharp tube with thick scanlines. The built-in blur filter's ugliness is somehow amplified and the PQ takes a hit. Fine sprite work loses some of its intended shape due to the razor thin and widely spaced out lines... starts looking like a collection of lines and less like fully realized, lively sprites.

Edit: I've never seen Panasonic pro CRTs past 13" for sale anywhere, although they do exist. But if you want one, some of the 2000s 15-20" JVCs are identical to the Panasonics. And the 20" Ikegami TM20s use Panasonic tubes.

IIRC You have a 14M4U like me correct? That little thing is awesome.

14L2, 600TVL. Just sharp enough, visible but thin lines, fantastic color. All games look good on it.

How would I know what has a high resolution tube?

Note the model number on the back and look up the specs on your phone. You want to pay attention to the horizontal resolution (television lines or TVL). Old CRTs and PVMs are 250-400 lines, mid-tier CRTs are 500-700, high-end PVMs and JVCs are 750-800 lines, BVMs are 800-1000.

Tuning the focus of a BVM can give you the right amount of sharpness for your
scanline-taste which may fall between a BVM and PVM. So it doesn't need to be
one or the other.

That would require opening up most monitors, correct? (Seen a couple with a focus pot on the back of the case). I'm also not sure this has the same effect as a lower TVL, nice quality monitor. It's more nuanced than having an overall blurrier picture or else we'd be clamoring for consumer sets with blurry, worn out tubes. As an example, my 20M4U at 800TVL has thicker lines and is blurrier than my 600TVL 14L2 with thinner lines and overall crisper picture. I also have a tiny 300TVL PVM with a completely different picture quality that you can't obtain by blurring the bigger, higher-res monitors.

 

[RadarScope1]

It's kind of exaggerated for the effect, but it shows the value of a soft picture sometimes. Look how rounded the column looks!

Yep, it looks great and seems much more as intended. I would choose the second image every time.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

SOTN looks amazing on everything. The world needed (needs) more games like that.

Maaan, I remember back in like... 2003, I was with a couple friends and I showed them SOTN, and one of them was like "this looks like a GBA game." Now, we were playing it on a crappy TV with composite, but still.

Ain't no GBA game.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

So I'm busy this weekend with family-related stuff but I told the craigslist seller of the PVMs I posted further up on the page that I might try to make it over to check 'em out next Sunday.

Now I have a little over a week to sit and ruminate over whether or not I want to bother driving that far for a PVM that I technically don't even need right now.

 

[Shadow Hog]

Maaan, I remember back in like... 2003, I was with a couple friends and I showed them SOTN, and one of them was like "this looks like a GBA game." Now, we were playing it on a crappy TV with composite, but still.

Ain't no GBA game.

I dunno, Aria of Sorrow is still a looker.

I mean, SotN looks better for a myriad of reasons, but still.

 

[catabarez]

Crap looks like the 8 SCART switch pre-order is done for now. Hopefully they will have more closer to release.

 

[Shadow Hog]

Glad I got my pre-order in, then

 

[Khaz]

Maaan, I remember back in like... 2003, I was with a couple friends and I showed them SOTN, and one of them was like "this looks like a GBA game." Now, we were playing it on a crappy TV with composite, but still.

Ain't no GBA game.

"Nah, the GBA resolution is way inferior with 240x160, while this is at 320x240. Also the GBA has an LCD screen which means pixels are square and it also completely lacks scanlines. It looks nothing like it. It's only Composite though so you may notice some dot-crawl and blur here and there, but man you should see it in RGB on a professional monitor!

... What?"

 

[RadarScope1]

So what's the advantage of having a high resolution monitor?

 

[NormalFish]

So what's the advantage of having a high resolution monitor?

high TVL, you mean? I think, in theory, it offers you higher clarity. As you'd expect. I can't recall ever seeing a nice comparison but Phonedork has an amazing video relating to the subject, i'll pull it up and edit.

Here you go: https://youtu.be/ffiR4E1id-8?t=6m40s

With timestamp.
**
I fucking love this video

 

[Mega]

Here you go: https://youtu.be/ffiR4E1id-8?t=6m40s
I fucking love this video

Same, seen it like 20 times! He's fun to watch and gives good info. I wish he had more videos.

 

[dancrane212]

All those PVM shots have got me thinking about trying to snag one at some point either in Boston on our the way there this April for PAX. Just a matter of watching Craigslist I take it?

 

[Hawk269]

Need some help/advice:

I have a lot of old school consoles, recently found a nice 27" Sony CRT, but it only has RF and S-Video and Standard RCA inputs.

I found someone that can mod my ColecVision with RCA and/or RGB. I live in the U.S. and am just starting to read about the Framemeister device. I am wondering how the Framemeuster actually works? If I have my Colecvision moded with a RGB out, how does the connection path go?

I am looking to use my 4k Screen with the Framemeister but am new to this stuff and just looking for advice. I read a lot about scart cables, but from my understanding that is a Japan/Europe Sets.

 

[NormalFish]

Same, seen it like 20 times! He's fun to watch and gives good info. I wish he had more videos.

yeah, exactly.

All those PVM shots have got me thinking about trying to snag one at some point either in Boston on our the way there this April for PAX. Just a matter of watching Craigslist I take it?

You can try ebay as well. can search by zipcode.

 

[dhonk]

Need some help/advice:

I have a lot of old school consoles, recently found a nice 27" Sony CRT, but it only has RF and S-Video and Standard RCA inputs.

I found someone that can mod my ColecVision with RCA and/or RGB. I live in the U.S. and am just starting to read about the Framemeister device. I am wondering how the Framemeuster actually works? If I have my Colecvision moded with a RGB out, how does the connection path go?

I am looking to use my 4k Screen with the Framemeister but am new to this stuff and just looking for advice. I read a lot about scart cables, but from my understanding that is a Japan/Europe Sets.

Framemeister has an 'RGB' input (Its an 8 pin mini din) that you plug either a euro scart or JP21 wired adapter into. SEE:

The real question is what cable does the colecovision mod use? From minor googling it looks like one modder can have the cable either end in SCART or a mini din that you could plug straight into the framemeister.

 

[televator]

Need some help/advice:

I have a lot of old school consoles, recently found a nice 27" Sony CRT, but it only has RF and S-Video and Standard RCA inputs.

I found someone that can mod my ColecVision with RCA and/or RGB. I live in the U.S. and am just starting to read about the Framemeister device. I am wondering how the Framemeuster actually works? If I have my Colecvision moded with a RGB out, how does the connection path go?

I am looking to use my 4k Screen with the Framemeister but am new to this stuff and just looking for advice. I read a lot about scart cables, but from my understanding that is a Japan/Europe Sets.

If you haven't read the OP yet, you should do so. It ought to clear things up for you. RGB analog that most old consoles put out is a signal typically carried over SCART or JP21. However you never wanna mix SCART with JP21 without an adapter. Even though the connectors look the same, they are wired differently. Without an adapter, you can damage equipment. Furthermore, if you live in the US and you go with SCART, you need to be sure to get NTSC SCART cables. Not sure if that's the same for JP21.

The framemeister is a JP21 device, but an adapter can make it use SCART without problems. It's up to you if you want to go with SCART or JP21, but SCART is probably the more beaten path and it's functionality with CRTs, scalers, and converters are more common knowledge. It's also the focus of the OP.