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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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TGMIII

Member
]These guys are obviously interested in waiting out long term for desperate suckers.[/B] I would forget about them and find someone else willing to negotiate and sell at a reasonable price.

Funny enough they replied back after I asked them what's the lowest amount they would take is and it was 1K. Turns out they were actually trying to sell it for 1.5K.

He said it's that price because, "I know gamers will always buy the monitors in the future for the older arcade games"

Good luck to him.
 
Funny enough they replied back after I asked them what's the lowest amount they would take is and it was 1K. Turns out they were actually trying to sell it for 1.5K.

He said it's that price because, "I know gamers will always buy the monitors in the future for the older arcade games"

Good luck to him.

Sadly he may be right. The cat is pretty much out of the bag on the good monitors and there are a lot of gamers that will pay a ton for what they want/what the internet has told them is good.
 

Peagles

Member
Funny enough they replied back after I asked them what's the lowest amount they would take is and it was 1K. Turns out they were actually trying to sell it for 1.5K.

He said it's that price because, "I know gamers will always buy the monitors in the future for the older arcade games"

Good luck to him.

Disgusting.

Sadly he may be right. The cat is pretty much out of the bag on the good monitors and there are a lot of gamers that will pay a ton for what they want/what the internet has told them is good.

Do people really pay that much though? Most people balk at the price of a Framemeister and that's not even anywhere near close. I can't imagine many people would drop 1k on any piece of equipment, let alone an old piece of hardware that could die at any given time with basically no warranty, support, or tech available to help fix or revive it.
 
I have only been following this RGB stuff for about a year but have seen a big change in prices for monitors over that time. The disappointing part is that sellers seems to be willing to sit on them for months and months rather than just move them. I swear there are some overpriced monitors that have been on eBay in my area (NJ/NYC) since I've been looking, >1 year.
 

Mega

Banned
Well, I have seen regular SD BVMs inexplicably sell for close to $1000. I say inexplicably because at around the same time there were BVMs and equivalent PVMs and other brand monitors selling for much less. Sometimes more capable monitors like the HD versions selling for less.

Right now there are three HD PVMs listed for $275-450... reasonable for some, too high for others, but definitely nowhere near $1k. So what the heck are some buyers thinking? I dunno, I think people are getting too caught up in the hype and in unnecessary desperation not looking 5 feet past what's in front of them.

I have only been following this RGB stuff for about a year but have seen a big change in prices for monitors over that time. The disappointing part is that sellers seems to be willing to sit on them for months and months rather than just move them. I swear there are some overpriced monitors that have been on eBay in my area (NJ/NYC) since I've been looking, >1 year.

Those are unscrupulous sellers looking to take advantage of the impulsive retro gamer market. They follow what's happening on sites like GAF, NG, shmups, YouTube, etc. and market their stuff as "Sony PVM -- Great for Retro Gamers!!!" There's no scarcity or huge demand behind any of this. Just waiting for anyone overeager enough to bite.
 
Disgusting.



Do people really pay that much though? Most people balk at the price of a Framemeister and that's not even anywhere near close. I can't imagine many people would drop 1k on any piece of equipment, let alone an old piece of hardware that could die at any given time with basically no warranty, support, or tech available to help fix or revive it.


Here in Toronto, Ontario, Canada it seems everyone has gotten the word about retro gaming. CBC.ca just ran a news peice about retro games and now our local swap group is laughing at the posts showing up on kijiji. PVM/BMV's are always listed for extreme prices. even crt computer monitors are being sold as " retro game monitors". Right now there is a pvm 1354q for $150. 2 years ago i got 2 for $15.

Lets be real. unless CRT's have a vynl sort of resurgence we are all going to be playing on a Framemeister eventually. I dont see the point in investing seriose cash into a ticking timebomb.
 
Do people really pay that much though? Most people balk at the price of a Framemeister and that's not even anywhere near close. I can't imagine many people would drop 1k on any piece of equipment, let alone an old piece of hardware that could die at any given time with basically no warranty, support, or tech available to help fix or revive it.

They are getting up there. You got to remember the kind of people we share the hobby with. Instant collection collectors with the cash to just get what they want, and sellers who are more then willing to push prices up to take advantage of that. Last few posters has covered it pretty well.

It's pretty typical of this hobby though. In the same way that the price of games keeps going up and as soon as a youtube channel covers something the price skyrockets. I wish I was able to get another really good monitor before everyone got hip to them, but that is also pretty typical.
 

Peagles

Member
I have only been following this RGB stuff for about a year but have seen a big change in prices for monitors over that time. The disappointing part is that sellers seems to be willing to sit on them for months and months rather than just move them. I swear there are some overpriced monitors that have been on eBay in my area (NJ/NYC) since I've been looking, >1 year.

I see this a lot on our local auction site. Not so much with the professional monitors but with retro game stuff in general. I get emails every day with searches matching things I'm looking for and I swear I've seen stuff listed for at least 5 years. Those sellers seem to have hundreds of listings too, I can only imagine how and where they must store all this stuff.

Well, I have seen regular SD BVMs inexplicably sell for close to $1000. I say inexplicably because at around the same time there were BVMs and equivalent PVMs and other brand monitors selling for much less. Sometimes more capable monitors like the HD versions selling for less.

Right now there are three HD PVMs listed for $275-450... reasonable for some, too high for others, but definitely nowhere near $1k. So what the heck are some buyers thinking? I dunno, I think people are getting too caught up in the hype and in unnecessary desperation not looking 5 feet past what's in front of them.

Those are unscrupulous sellers looking to take advantage of the impulsive retro gamer market. They follow what's happening on sites like GAF, NG, shmups, YouTube, etc. and market their stuff as "Sony PVM -- Great for Retro Gamers!!!" There's no scarcity or huge demand behind any of this. Just waiting for anyone overeager enough to bite.

I wonder if some of the BVMs selling that high is not to gamers but to say, businesses, or other users that are less recreational. I totally get the ones up to the $500 mark but yeh, 1k just seems crazy to me.

Here in Toronto, Ontario, Canada it seems everyone has gotten the word about retro gaming. CBC.ca just ran a news peice about retro games and now our local swap group is laughing at the posts showing up on kijiji. PVM/BMV's are always listed for extreme prices. even crt computer monitors are being sold as " retro game monitors". Right now there is a pvm 1354q for $150. 2 years ago i got 2 for $15.

Lets be real. unless CRT's have a vynl sort of resurgence we are all going to be playing on a Framemeister eventually. I dont see the point in investing seriose cash into a ticking timebomb.

Yeh it's the ticking timebomb bit that gets me. If they were new and you could still get decent support or warranty I'd spend a lot more for sure. As it is they are like any other CRT that goes for a buck, except the picture is a lot nicer. I paid 50 and 100x more for that, but not 1000x lol.

They are getting up there. You got to remember the kind of people we share the hobby with. Instant collection collectors with the cash to just get what they want, and sellers who are more then willing to push prices up to take advantage of that. Last few posters has covered it pretty well.

It's pretty typical of this hobby though. In the same way that the price of games keeps going up and as soon as a youtube channel covers something the price skyrockets. I wish I was able to get another really good monitor before everyone got hip to them, but that is also pretty typical.

It kinda sucks to be honest. Makes me want to just stop buying stuff. Well I kinda already have I guess. I have most games and systems I want now and I'm happy with my setup. Maybe it comes from being kinda poor but I don't want to contribute to a system where people are just getting greedy.
 
I wonder if some of the BVMs selling that high is not to gamers but to say, businesses, or other users that are less recreational. I totally get the ones up to the $500 mark but yeh, 1k just seems crazy to me.

It kinda sucks to be honest. Makes me want to just stop buying stuff. Well I kinda already have I guess. I have most games and systems I want now and I'm happy with my setup. Maybe it comes from being kinda poor but I don't want to contribute to a system where people are just getting greedy.

I think the change in how I've seen them being sold kinda tells the tale. Originally when I saw listings they would be based around it being equipment for a studio or professional use, while now its normally "GREAT FOR GAMING/RETRO GAMING MONITOR".

I know I'm part of the problem in a way since games/items that get to me are cut out of the supply chain permanently since I never sell things. I'm not the kind of person that goes for "complete collections" and instead just buys games that I really want to play, but I do wish I had your resolve since even though I complain a lot about the state of pricing and sellers there are still a number of games that I really want and will probably pay prices I think are mad for. It may be a self severing POV but there will always be greedy people looking to make the maximum amount of cash off of anything. I guess what I really wish for is that I personally didn't care so much about the condition or owning games physically.

We have some instant collectors here in the GAF threads even. It's definitely happening all the time.

I may not be a fan of that kind of stuff for myself, but I don't hate on people that do do it. The big thing I always go on about is price fixing and general large scale scalping. All of us that participate in the hobby can be to blame for making certain stuff look so appealing that it makes more people want to buy them. Other people just use that desire to increase sales, or hell, even youtube views. Positive feedback on a limited supply item will drive prices up in most situations. I would always rather complain about prices every so often then there to be no community at all talking about great older games. Added exposure is the double sided sword of our easily accessible knowledge base.
 

Mega

Banned
I wonder if some of the BVMs selling that high is not to gamers but to say, businesses, or other users that are less recreational. I totally get the ones up to the $500 mark but yeh, 1k just seems crazy to me.

Possible but seems unlikely... Who's buying them?! Video professionals and studios traded their CRTS for LCDs in the 00s (now OLED). Hospitals also tossed their MD PVMs. My first PVM came from a city court who got rid of all of theirs. There are tons of little CRTs on eBay from old security setups that upgraded to arrays of mini flat panels. Point being no one really wants these except us. I heard about art installations here and there using CRTs but they get theirs from recycling centers and other sources super cheap and by the pallet. They're not paying $1k/unit on eBay. I think the only folks that still use CRTs in any meaningful capacity are military, specially made screens for their hardware that needs it.

If you need proof that the buyers are us and the sellers know who they're targeting (us): I contacted a seller who was selling a SD JVC... I didn't want the monitor but did want the RGB/component card on the back to use on a card-less (and therefore useless) JVC HD CRT from another seller. I was very upfront about what I was asking for. The seller doesn't respond. A guy on another forum buys the exact same monitor... it shows up but the important input card in the photos is missing and a useless audio SDI card is in its place. Beyond fucked and shady but luckily the issue was resolved (not luck, more like the seller wanted to avoid a scam report).

I'm certain the seller took note of my PM, did a bit of Googling, ripped out the RGB input card and hoarded it for a nice future profit, hoping the next buyer wouldn't notice or care it was missing. Here's where it gets interesting. At around the same time two other sellers with similar JVCs with the card on the back jack up their monitor prices by 2-3x as much and mention the card by name in their listing titles (practically shouting "Retro Gamer Monitor!!"). One sells, the other relists back at a somewhat lower price, minus the card on the back in new photos. My guess is someone asked to buy it separately... or the seller is holding onto it like the previous shady seller.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Those are unscrupulous sellers looking to take advantage of the impulsive retro gamer market. They follow what's happening on sites like GAF, NG, shmups, YouTube, etc. and market their stuff as "Sony PVM -- Great for Retro Gamers!!!" There's no scarcity or huge demand behind any of this. Just waiting for anyone overeager enough to bite.

agreed 100%, artificial scarcity is a real thing.

We have some instant collectors here in the GAF threads even. It's definitely happening all the time.

oh man, yeah - seein this recently around here too
i don't like telling people what to do with their $, but i don't doubt a few just drive up prices & don't really enjoy/appreciate stuff, so my hopes are they let it back go in another year or two for decent prices, haha

I may not be a fan of that kind of stuff for myself, but I don't hate on people that do do it. The big thing I always go on about is price fixing and general large scale scalping. All of us that participate in the hobby can be to blame for making certain stuff look so appealing that it makes more people want to buy them. Other people just use that desire to increase sales, or hell, even youtube views. Positive feedback on a limited supply item will drive prices up in most situations. I would always rather complain about prices every so often then there to be no community at all talking about great older games. Added exposure is the double sided sword of our easily accessible knowledge base.

also this - more people playing classic games is great by me, honestly. i legit love seeing gems get noticed, and put onto ones i missed!
and ive got friends working in/opening retro shops, so i can't hate on resellers either...but damned if i don't wanna smack the ones i see buying up entire tables at garage sales in front of me, haha
 

TeaJay

Member
Lets be real. unless CRT's have a vynl sort of resurgence we are all going to be playing on a Framemeister eventually. I dont see the point in investing seriose cash into a ticking timebomb.

This is what I believe as well. PVM's are already really scarce here in Finland, and even getting a good CRT has become harder. I'm mentally prepared to look into a Framemeister if my current PVM calls it a day.
 

missile

Member
... I'm certain the seller took note of my PM, did a bit of Googling, ripped out the RGB input card and hoarded it for a nice future profit, hoping the next buyer wouldn't notice or care it was missing. Here's where it gets interesting. At around the same time two other sellers with similar JVCs with the card on the back jack up their monitor prices by 2-3x as much and mention the card by name in their listing titles (practically shouting "Retro Gamer Monitor!!"). One sells, the other relists back at a somewhat lower price, minus the card on the back in new photos. My guess is someone asked to buy it separately... or the seller is holding onto it like the previous shady seller.
Tricky.

One thing is for sure, the price skyrockets in a few decades from now for
monitors being in good shape. I mean, if you put a BVM away for 20 years from
now, it may become a life insurance, no? For, new generations of people may
likewise want to explore the holy grail of CRT technology at a time when most
CRTs in use are worn out. At that time technicians who then may understand CRT
technology can make some good money by offering a service for re-tuning these
worn out monitors trying to get a good picture out of them again, if possible.

The situation reminds me of vacuum tubes (valves). The price of many of them
are already on their way to explode.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
The difference between CRTs and all the other retro gaming shit that's been inflated in price over the past few years is that, at the end of the day, it's still a giant fucking heavy cube that's taking up space in some poor schmuck's garage.

There will always be someone who will say "just take this away from me, please".
 

PadPoet

505 Games Ltd
I bought my BVM (20F1E) for £200 pounds 6 months ago, selling it again for £200. I believe it's only fair.

BVMs/PVMs and broadcast monitors in general are great IF you have the space. If not they can really be a pain. I just will have to learn with my XRGB Mini for now on. Better in some ways, worse in others.

In general when it comes to retro, pretty much everything is jumping up in pricing. Now even CRT and RGB monitors.
 

missile

Member
Many thanks! That will help me in my study quite a lot. Now I have to count
all these bars up.
Anyone did that already? xD


Well, as some of you may have recognized, I do follow some interests in the
Genesis' video encoders, because I want to know why the composite video
quality was/is so bad and what intrinsic property produces these artifacts
like jailbars, rainbow bars etc. while possibly finding some ways to suppress
them. I already found out some issues with all the different encoders in use
like the CXA1145, MB3514, and KA2195D etc. It seems that one part of the
problem lies within the encoders themselves and the other one lies outside of
them.

While studying the encoders I stumbled about something very interesting. For,
I think I may have found a possible source from where the jailbars could come
from, from a part of the encoder which was completely ignored by now (scanned
many forums on the subject) and which also goes in line with the issue I have
with the encoders and some of their outer circuitry. But I need to analyse it
much more before drawing any sound conclusion. I'm going to simulate parts of
the encoder and some of its outer circuitry in software trying to recreate the
jailbars. Will see.


Edit:
Btw, Sixfortyfive, how were these pictures obtained?
 

Peltz

Member
This is what I believe as well. PVM's are already really scarce here in Finland, and even getting a good CRT has become harder. I'm mentally prepared to look into a Framemeister if my current PVM calls it a day.
Same here.

I will play on CRT for as long as possible but got the framemeister just to future proof my collection with an HDMI option.

50 years from now, I think we'll all be SOL trying to play on CRTs unfortunately.
 

Heero5

Member
We have some instant collectors here in the GAF threads even. It's definitely happening all the time.

It definitely is happening all over. About 3 years ago I met a 13 year old boy who liked collecting retro games, this kid was the younger brother of my friend's girlfriend and she asked if I could take him to a local retro game store. Naturally I said yes but his purchases are what struck me as strange.

He specificly bought bad game the AVGN had reviewed. He also went from like no games to walls of Atari games from eBay in like a year, none of which he liked. He basically was clicking "buy it now" constantly with someone else's money.

This is what really hurts the scene, every click just jacked the prices of Combat and Yar's Revenge up. However the meat of this post is to say this kid no longer collects games, he went in swiftly and left the same way. It's just a fad to so many people and while they may leave the prices have already been inflated.

I feel this is happening more and more now. People are retro game tourists now.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Many thanks! That will help me in my study quite a lot. Now I have to count
all these bars up.
Anyone did that already? xD


Well, as some of you may have recognized, I do follow some interests in the
Genesis' video encoders, because I want to know why the composite video
quality was/is so bad and what intrinsic property produces these artifacts
like jailbars, rainbow bars etc. while possibly finding some ways to suppress
them. I already found out some issues with all the different encoders in use
like the CXA1145, MB3514, and KA2195D etc. It seems that one part of the
problem lies within the encoders themselves and the other one lies outside of
them.

While studying the encoders I stumbled about something very interesting. For,
I think I may have found a possible source from where the jailbars could come
from, from a part of the encoder which was completely ignored by now (scanned
many forums on the subject) and which also goes in line with the issue I have
with the encoders and some of their outer circuitry. But I need to analyse it
much more before drawing any sound conclusion. I'm going to simulate parts of
the encoder and some of its outer circuitry in software trying to recreate the
jailbars. Will see.


Edit:
Btw, Sixfortyfive, how were these pictures obtained?

I capped the bottom one myself. The first I got from someone else.

Also, the jailbars come from the fact that the composite video line on the encoder runs right next to the blue line, and it causes interference. If you cut the composite video trace, it gets rid of the jailbars altogether (in addition to making the console incompatible with composite A/V cables, of course).
 

KC-Slater

Member
It definitely is happening all over. About 3 years ago I met a 13 year old boy who liked collecting retro games, this kid was the younger brother of my friend's girlfriend and she asked if I could take him to a local retro game store. Naturally I said yes but his purchases are what struck me as strange.

He specificly bought bad game the AVGN had reviewed. He also went from like no games to walls of Atari games from eBay in like a year, none of which he liked. He basically was clicking "buy it now" constantly with someone else's money.

This is what really hurts the scene, every click just jacked the prices of Combat and Yar's Revenge up. However the meat of this post is to say this kid no longer collects games, he went in swiftly and left the same way. It's just a fad to so many people and while they may leave the prices have already been inflated.

I feel this is happening more and more now. People are retro game tourists now.

This is literally no different than any other hobby. Video game collecting does not exist outside the laws of supply and demand. The gates didn't close behind you, once you became interested in video games. This forum is a testament to that. Such an elitist mentality will only frustrate you, and hurt the scene.
 

Mega

Banned
Same here.

I will play on CRT for as long as possible but got the framemeister just to future proof my collection with an HDMI option.

50 years from now, I think we'll all be SOL trying to play on CRTs unfortunately.

50 years from now we will probably have real VR (not screen-on-face VR), life-like holograms or some other technology that perfectly mimics a CRT. If that seems farfetched, remember the first crude Oculus already has VR demos that do a nice job of putting you in a room with working CRTs and arcades. I don't see a physical heavy box in your living room being necessary so many years from now.
 

Heero5

Member
Such an elitist mentality will only frustrate you, and hurt the scene.

I wasn't trying to come across elitist, simply an observation confirming that people are literally collecting for absolutely no reason.

I think what I was trying to say got wordy and long winded lol.
 

missile

Member
He used a capture card.

Thank god there are some other people here besides me who uses them. I get rid of jailbars easily in AmaRecTV under a sharpness setting.

I capped the bottom one myself. ...
Capture card, I see.

... The first I got from someone else. ...
What's interesting about the first picture is that its colors are a bit
reduced in luminance, see yellow for example. Were there differences in
luminance with earlier versions or is this a capture / post-processing effect?

... Also, the jailbars come from the fact that the composite video line on the encoder runs right next to the blue line, and it causes interference. If you cut the composite video trace, it gets rid of the jailbars altogether (in addition to making the console incompatible with composite A/V cables, of course).
Yeah I know, but it doesn't explain why it happens in the first place. Sure,
cutting composite out or the color's sub-carrier for that matter makes the
jailbars go away (making the console incompatible), but that's not what I'm
after. I want to find the unit inside the encoder which "produces" these bars
and want to find the reason why they aren't sufficiently suppressed such that
the effect can occur at all. I know that the color's sub-carrier goes into the
encoder, but to me it seems that some units within the encoder do reproduce
the carrier. Currently I am thinking it is a mismatch of one of the encoder's
units with some of its outer circuits. That's something I want to reproduce in
software. Will be at least my take on the story. ;)

Regarding your picture; I hope the jailbars can tell me something about how
the color's sub-carrier is treated inside the encoder. That's why I need it.
 
Can someone show a screen grab of why missile's post are so bad? They look fine to me on mobile (Safari on iPhone) or Chrome, just a little shorter lines. I don't get it.
 

Mega

Banned
Manual line breaks that clash with natural text reflow of most devices. So you may get this:

Yeah I know, but it doesn't explain why it happens in the first (reflow)
place. Sure, (manual break)
cutting composite out or the color's sub-carrier for that matter (reflow)
makes the (manual break)

Here you go (what's funny is that I was doing the above as a general example, and sure enough that's exactly how it is in the screencap):

YOvGQvVl.png
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Missile's posts can look absolutely fine on modern screens if you run them through the XRGB mini.
 

Mega

Banned
Missile said I can make this part of a recent PM public in the interest of ending the discussion on his posting style:

I'm writing all my texts on an old computer with an old editor on an 80
characters screen. Ask Donald Knuth! xD The files get saved into a directory
and droped into NeoGAF. I posted a lot in news-groups and stuff, and the 80
character limits is just the best in text-mode. I really like it. And you know
what, I can't deal with the bad html formatting. These long lines are pretty
bad in my book. Sure, my posts may not be readable on every mobile device, but
on many it turns out good. Other people are fine with it (also on mobile). So
on the contrary, why should I adapt to people on their fixed mobile devices
which can't even display 80 characters per line? I have written record of many
NeoGAF members who are pretty fine with my the 80 characters per line.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Okay, it's obviously not that modern devices "can't display 80 characters per line". It's that whatever dinosaur of a text editor you are using inserts its own line breaks instead of using word wrap.
 
I capped the bottom one myself. The first I got from someone else.

Also, the jailbars come from the fact that the composite video line on the encoder runs right next to the blue line, and it causes interference. If you cut the composite video trace, it gets rid of the jailbars altogether (in addition to making the console incompatible with composite A/V cables, of course).

This is what I did to remove them from my system. Worked fine, even if it was scary to try to lift such a small pin. I could have made it easier and lifted the pin on the bigger chip and not the source one though.
 

televator

Member
That feel whe you think a GAFer bought something from you on ebay...
240


Yeah, so I think a fellow GAFer bought my GC component cable. The name and address seems familiar... Like I think I've dealt with such person in the BST thread. I also listed it cheaper on the BST thread in spirit of preferential treatment and not having to deal with fees.

You guys think I should ask the buyer if he's a GAFer, or would that end up being weird? Maybe he got banned and couldn't contact me on GAF? IDK.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Missile's posts can look absolutely fine on modern screens if you run them through the XRGB mini.

A+ post. :V

I got an ethernet adapter for the Dreamcast recently and gave it a test run by seeing how much of the Internet I could navigate on a 20th century game console + web browser.

Google and NeoGAF were pretty much the only usable sites. And GAF wasn't pretty.
 

Mega

Banned
N64 UltraHDMI is amazing! 480p on the 17" CRT, sharp pixels, deblur, no scanlines necessary. This is by far the best I've seen N64 games on original hardware. Some games have better results than others but overall looks very good, definitely better than the blurriness of RGB N64 on my CRTs. In some cases it's like the games were really meant to be played this way!

I initially tried it on my plasma with 1080p and scanlines and it was a great picture too. Makes me wish I had a second unit to keep hooked up to that display.

My one issue, that has nothing to do with the mod itself, is that my HDMI to component converter doesn't have passthrough and its available resolutions are only 16:9. The games aren't displaying stretched wide but it is throwing off the aspect ratio a bit and not filling up all of the 4:3 CRT display. There's a passthrough converter on amazon so that should do the trick. For now I have UltraHDMI set to 1080p and the converter is sending 480p into the monitor. I can't perceive any lag in like a dozen games tested.

I need to play around with this more but I'm very pleased by what I'm seeing.
 

televator

Member
N64 UltraHDMI is amazing! 480p on the 17" CRT, sharp pixels, deblur, no scanlines necessary. This is by far the best I've seen N64 games on original hardware. Some games have better results than others but overall looks very good, definitely better than the blurriness of RGB N64 on my CRTs. In some cases it's like the games were really meant to be played this way!

I initially tried it on my plasma with 1080p and scanlines and it was a great picture too. Makes me wish I had a second unit to keep hooked up to that display.

My one issue, that has nothing to do with the mod itself, is that my HDMI to component converter doesn't have passthrough and its available resolutions are only 16:9. The games aren't displaying stretched wide but it is throwing off the aspect ratio a bit and not filling up all of the 4:3 CRT display. There's a passthrough converter on amazon so that should do the trick. For now I have UltraHDMI set to 1080p and the converter is sending 480p into the monitor. I can't perceive any lag in like a dozen games tested.

I need to play around with this more but I'm very pleased by what I'm seeing.

The 480p isn't native, is it? I assume it line doubles to 31Khz via scaling 240p and bobbing/combining 480i.
 

Timu

Member
It's a shame it's quite expensive and limited in stock as it goes out of it often, though I hear many great things about it.

I just sent my N64 to get RGB modded, and the blur won't bother me too much as I don't play on a CRT, HDTV or TV in general for that matter, though I wonder how it's gonna look in terms of sharpness(which I know will be sharper), color and such compared to svideo and composite.
 

Mega

Banned
The 480p isn't native, is it? I assume it line doubles to 31Khz via scaling 240p and bobbing/combining 480i.

Yeah, I believe that's right. I can see mouth teeth deinterlacing artefacts in some native 480i games, worst example being small objects zooming by in Rogue Squadron. I could always switch to 480i if it was bad enough but what I saw wasn't a big deal.

240p games look decent-to-great depending on graphics, art style and other effects. You can sometimes see faint noise in the solid backgrounds of games like Starfox 64 and Bomberman 64 but I only see it when the game is paused. The dithering in Vigilante 8's normal res mode is very pronounced but goes away if you have the expansion pack and switch to high res mode. The deblur itself doesn't affect all games the same.

Despite any minor shortcoming this still kicks the RGB N64 on my displays. RE2 characters and backgrounds looks impressive in progressive mode, without scanlines or interlacing mucking things up. Quake 64 has a built-in "filter off" toggle that affects sharpness, so that on top of the mod settings make it pretty sharp and nice to play... It's normally an unsightly smeared mess. Cruis'n USA looked downright fantastic and that Star Soldier shooter finally looks playable and not nauseating.
 

missile

Member
Missile's posts can look absolutely fine on modern screens if you run them through the XRGB mini.
I thought we were retro all over the place here, no? Arrgh! ;)
Btw; You gave me a brilliant idea for a next project of mine!


This is what I did to remove them from my system. Worked fine, even if it was scary to try to lift such a small pin. I could have made it easier and lifted the pin on the bigger chip and not the source one though.
Don't forget to place a sticker on the console say it's not broken just
because there won't be any composite video. Someone may throw it in the
dumpster years later after having tried to connect the console to an old TV.
 

missile

Member
I don't know the technical reasons behind it, but I looked around and found some possibly enlightening posts on the Atari Age forums.

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/243240-why-is-the-composite-video-so-crappy-on-sega-consoles/

["]... Sega used cheap composite encoders for the SMS and Genesis, and the original Japanese systems as well. I have no idea how well it looks in PAL land, but for NTSC land composite encoder has this nasty artifact when scrolling (and I'm not talking about the rainbow artifacts either). It's apparent on certain colors than others, because the TVs can't pull out the color detail from the signal properly. ...["]

["]... I agree that Genesis / MD have really bad composite video output. And I think it is actually the same signal used for RF out too, hence the similar quality. For instance on my Mega Drive II VA0 there is Fujitsu MB3514 video encoder and... nothing else than RGB is acceptable. ...["]


http://atariage.com/forums/topic/70376-composite-output-comparisons-modelrevision/

["]... I've always noticed that Genesis composite output is extremely low quality (especially in areas of fully saturated red, it seriously looks like half resolution in those areas). And since the RF is modulated from the composite, that would be your culprit right there. ...["]
What does that last one mean? The RF signal is pulled from the composite chip which causes a decrease in overall quality? ...


(what about some code blocks, does it look any better?)

Code:
I somehow get an idea as to why composite video is so  weak  on  the  Genesis.

Regarding your last question, the issue with  RF  is  the  following.   If  RF
output is needed then the composite video  signal  coming  out  of  the  video
encoder goes into the RF encoder where it  will  be  further  processed.   The
problem with RF is that the bounds on the  transmitted  RF  video  signal  are
much tighter. There are  safety  margins,   for  example,   to  prevent  sound
distortions by the video signal etc. And  there  are  strict  filter  passband
characteristics to obey.

Basically, with RF, colors need to be clipped to make them  broadcast-save  so
to speak, i.e. the composite video signal needs to fit  into  a  given  range.
This fitting reduces the colors' saturation levels esp.   for  yellow,   cyan,
red, and blue (they always look a bit dull on RF). A  further  problem  within
this regard is that simply clipping the colors  to  make  them  broadcast-save
can change not only the colors' saturation levels  but  also  their  hues  and
values, depending on the given broadcast signal limit, which would  be  pretty
bad  because  people  are    quite    sensitive    to    changes    in    hue.

However, this was never a huge problem for standard  TV  transmission  because
natural (non-synthetic) scenes don't have fully saturated colors. So  all  the
colors from natural scenes  aren't  that  much  of  a  problem  regarding  the
transmitter's limits. Hence, not much clipping needed. But if  the  colors  go
outside  of  the  save  region  then  you  will  have  to  prepare  for   some
distortions. Now the  bad  news  comes  from  the  video  consoles  themselves
because they produce fully saturated colors like crazy.  And  it's  here  that
games  start  to  look  bad  on  video  esp.   when  transmitted   over    RF.

These color issues needs to be addressed when doing graphics for  video  games
when being transmitted via composite video and/or RF. One  could  improve  the
representation of the video game when obeying the limits of  the  transmission
system/channel, for example by  using  save  colors  right  from  the  get-go.

The  other  issue  with  RF  is  that  of  filter  characteristics.     Before
transmitting the composite video signal via RF, its  spectrum  is  transformed
into VSB (vestigial sideband (transmission)) with  one  part  of  one  of  its
sidebands suppressed (reducing  channel  bandwidth  in  the  process).   These
filtering characteristics needs to be as exact as  possible  because  the  TVs
filter's passband characteristic depends on it. Any mismatch here due  to  bad
filter design, weak roll-off, weak components (wear),   too  much  delay  (not
correctly compensated), etc. in the RF encoder and  TV  decoder  (tuner)  will
have a huge impact on the quality of the (to be) demodulated  composite  video
signal. This is where most of the issues with RF come from  (not  speaking  of
any distortions of the RF signal while on its why to the TV). Hence,   the  RF
transmitter and the TV receiver need to match as close as possible,  which  is
very unlikely given all the tolerances and,   well,   cheap  components  resp.
simple filter designs. It's a  trade-off.   It's  pretty  expensive  to  build
analog devices to close tolerances.

... Someone in one of those threads noted that running a Genesis emulator on another device and then using a composite converter box gave much better quality than the default Genesis composite. I guess that verifies Sega sourced garbage chips but doesn't quite explain why they are so bad.
Code:
Today we can build  much  better  converters,   indeed.   The  question  rises
whether Sega really went the cheapest route,  had  no  other  choice  in  some
departments, and/or have done some mistakes  by  design  (regarding  composite
video), i.e. could there be a better design  at  the  same  cost  producing  a
better video image on the screen?
 
It's a shame it's quite expensive and limited in stock as it goes out of it often, though I hear many great things about it.

Yeah, I should have jumped on it when Badassconsoles had some in stock in December. I have yet to see anyone else have any in stock since then.
 
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