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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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I never use this word, but that image/description is totally rad.
sixteen-bit
Member
Hackerman stealing Triforce's shtick
geniusbits
Member
I've read this entire thread and can confirm Rich was a regular for the first year or so.
CrashPrime
Member
What is lag like on HDTV CRT's if you are sending an already processed (no lag from the upscale) 720p signal at them? Better question I guess would be what's the input lag like from a PS3 or something sending 720p?
Emulation + quality HDTV CRT = gotta be comparable to a PVM, minus light gun support if the geometry is close.
Emulation + quality HDTV CRT = gotta be comparable to a PVM, minus light gun support if the geometry is close.
Lag comes from upscaling and picture modification in general. an HD CRT fed with an HD signal won't have any lag. Depending on how the HD CRT works, it may or may not have one frame of lag when displaying SD content.
Emulation gives you at least one frame of lag, due to how emulation work. You may have additional lag depending on how the emulator polls the controller, and various other OS/videocard shenanigans like double or triple buffering, Aero on Windows 7, etc.
CrashPrime
Member
So, this 1 frame of lag includes standalone emulation boxes like Retron 5 and Retrode? Are they both 1 frame measured? Do either of these devices do better/worse than each other? My basic understanding was the 1 frame was due to how LCD's and USB worked. These boxes are using actual controllers and feeding to a CRT HDTV in this case. Thought that might solve the issue.
Both devices are spitting out a 720p image over HDMI so it seems like it is a reasonably good solution to get super clean images out without worrying about Aero or other background processes screwing something up. Not sure what the backend (retroarch?) is doing lag wise.
True. I used to be fine playing on my lcd with an xrgb mini but have rarely used it since getting a Sony PVM.
Ignorance was bliss!
Do you have a console capable of running the 240p test suite?
Not sure if this belongs in a mostly RGB/PVM focused discussion but I have a consumer CRT for 5th gen and older games but lately I've been playing some 6th gen games on it. The more I think about it the more I want to find something with visible scanlines at 480i resolutions. I know this is difficult to find in a non-Trinitron consumer set but I've seen them. For example, the Magnavox Smart Series. I came across a typical crappy point-the-camera-at-the-TV YouTube video and noticed the scanlines on that thing are surprisingly prominent. The compression is awful but they're there.
I found a few even crappier eBay photos that also show them, but barely. I can't tell if the subtlety is due to the fuzziness of the pictures or the actual appearance of the scanlines. The Serta one seems to show it best. Compare these to a Trinitron... has anyone else noticed this in non-Sony/Trinitron rebranded consumer TVs? If so what brands have the absolute best sharpness? Does the digital sharpness adjustment vary the focus voltage of the tube or is it just in image processing?
I found a few even crappier eBay photos that also show them, but barely. I can't tell if the subtlety is due to the fuzziness of the pictures or the actual appearance of the scanlines. The Serta one seems to show it best. Compare these to a Trinitron... has anyone else noticed this in non-Sony/Trinitron rebranded consumer TVs? If so what brands have the absolute best sharpness? Does the digital sharpness adjustment vary the focus voltage of the tube or is it just in image processing?
emulation ≠ simulation.
emulation cares about reproducing the end result as if it were made by the original machine, regardless of how non-accurate the inner processes can be. Simulation aims to reproduce the processes as accurately as possible, the accuracy being measured by comparing the end result with one from the original machine.
A modern computer, as powerful as it is, cannot simulate a videogame console in real time. There had been some breakthrough with an early Pong machine a couple years ago, but we're still quite far away from even the simplest 3rd gen console. The only way to play a virtual version of our machines is to emulate it, which means use any trick necessary in order to produce an accurate picture and gameplay, regardless of how the original chips really did it. One big word is asynchronous computation: each frame is calculated as a whole, in order to optimise the computation time of your powerful modern processor. But it means that all the data needed to calculate a frame (dealt with in real time by the original machine) are buffered, calculated, then drawn on-screen. The minimum amount of time needed to do all that is exactly one frame, hence your one frame of lag on your emulated console. It can be more than one frame if the processes are not properly optimised.
The only way to get rid of this frame of delay is to simulate the console. It's not currently possible in software, but it can be done in hardware: you can reproduce the original chips (simulate) in an FPGA and have them act as the real deal, in real time. It has been done plenty of time for 8bit consoles, people are hard at work to reproduce 16bit cores, but anything beyond is a pipe dream yet.
A Retron5 is just an Android box with (stolen) software emulators. A Retrode is just an interface for your PC to understand what's on a ROM. It doesn't even allow to read its data directly, instead it dumps the whole code in RAM for it to be accessed by the software.
So unless your emulation box is using FPGA ("hardware emulation"), you will always have 1 frame of delay a minima because of emulation. Then you can add all the other sources of lag, like (bluetooth) controllers, LCD displays, etc.
I very recently picked up an Omega CVMS, much to my delight. It came with composite/S-Video cables, but I also spent the money on the component and SCART cables, thinking maybe I'd go down the Framemeister route eventually. I got my current TV mixed up with my old one so while I thought I was going to be using the S-Video for a while but that's not happening, so I hooked it up via composite.
Ew.
Framemeister eventually is going to be more like Framemeister next month.
Ew.
Framemeister eventually is going to be more like Framemeister next month.
NormalFish
Banned
Okay so I hope I didn't miss a reply, but asking again:
Will this Scart -> BNC Adapter
Work with a sync-on-luma scart cable out of the box?
Will this Scart -> BNC Adapter
Work with a sync-on-luma scart cable out of the box?
Depends on the display... or the switch you're using between console and display. Some are picky about sync and luma sync won't work. That same seller has a pricier version of that adapter with sync stripper that turns luma sync (and composite video sync) into the more widely accepted composite sync.
Hawk269
Member
What is the best/highest quality VGA adapter for a Sega Dreamcast? I have one, but regardless of what cables I use, I get some wavy lines on the screen. Still looks really good, but due to the wavy lines it hampers it a bit. I also tried this VGA adapter on another Dreamcast and used multiple Monitors and still the same, so I know it is the VGA adapter.
Thanks for any help/assistance.
Thanks for any help/assistance.
NormalFish
Banned
Are there PVMs that accept composite video for sync but not luma for sync? I couldn't find much discussion of it.
PVMs aren't picky and accept all sync types to my knowledge.
NormalFish
Banned
Don't think this is universal. I've seen multiple lists that indicate otherwise. the 2950 I believe? I might be misremembering.
**
Yup, can source fudoh: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46094
Shin Johnpv
Member
If you just need straight VGA then probably the Hanzo from these guys
http://www.beharbros.com/#!hanzo/c1gph
If you want it to do VGA and RGB Scart then the Toro from them.
http://www.beharbros.com/#!toro/cfom
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Yeah, I used to have issues with weird horizontal lines on the screen with my old, fly-by-night VGA box, but the Hanzo has worked perfectly for me. I have no regrets about buying one.
Not true =) Definitely PVM dependent. One of my PVMs require a sync cleaner the other doesn't. Luckily cleaners are pretty cheap, you can get them integrated into the breakout cable.
Yeah, older PVMs are another story. But PVMs from mid-late 90s and onward should be fine, I think starting from the M series.
Just off the cuff here... **turns head, leans in closer** I'm willin' da sell my Hanzo.
Really though, I've been meaning to get a Toro for a while, so that means my Hanzo will be a paperweight unless someone else wants it. That reminds me, I gotta post this little wonder device in the BST thread.
D.Lo
Member
I have a Hanzo to sell too when I can be bothered, my new TV has no VGA unfortunately. Not that this helps you haha!Just off the cuff here... **turns head, leans in closer** I'm willin' da sell my Hanzo.
Really though, I've been meaning to get a Toro for a while, so that means my Hanzo will be a paperweight unless someone else wants it. That reminds me, I gotta post this little wonder device in the BST thread.
On a related point I now have a 4K Sony. It seems to scale 720p quite nicely to 4K (from the Framemeister)
Cool. I'd been wondering about how it would scale to 4K. What model did you get?
D.Lo
Member
I always thought it would be good, because 3840 x 2160 is an integer multiple of 720p, so it's 'semi natively' showing the resolution, just pixel trippled in both directions.
It looks about as good at 720p as my 1080p plasma did, for both games (tested Splatoon) and the Framemeister. Definitely better than most 1080p LCDs I've used before.
Now all we need is a UHD Framemeister for some better scanline emulation options in 2160p, since 2060 is also an integer multiple of 240!
Not sure of the model right now, a mid range 50" with a bunch of Android 'smart' TV bullshit I spent two hours manually turning off.
Yeah that's the next frontier. Now we gotta worry about scaling 240p all the way up to 4K - well eventually anyway. Which considering how massive that is even compared to 1080...
Scaling has to be preeeeeeety good now. lol That first dark square's more or less where wer're at with 240p. The trick for games is doing it economically in processing time while still retaining good PQ. Perhaps the XRGB Mega will have its work cut out for it.
NormalFish
Banned
I don't think processing should be more difficult? From my understanding of how these things typically work, the only factor in resolution itself that could introduce processing time is if the target resolution isn't an even integer (that is to say 2x,3x,etc.).
And even then with letterboxing its not a huge deal.
And even then with letterboxing its not a huge deal.
all this 4K talk. that reminds me i want to get a 4K TV but they're still too expensive for me. i hope my current TV will last me until then since it seems the 1080p sets are crap every year in the low end and 4K should drop a lot in price once it takes off.
well, that's quite the eye opener. i had no idea simulation was a thing and how different it is from emulation.
also, does that mean the lag in VC is not Nintendo's fault but the way emulation works?
well, that's quite the eye opener. i had no idea simulation was a thing and how different it is from emulation.
also, does that mean the lag in VC is not Nintendo's fault but the way emulation works?
Hawk269
Member
Yeah, the Hanzo is what I may need to get.
I know some were asking about 4k, today I have my Dreamcast going through a VGA box and then thru a VGA to Component box. The box has 480p, 720p and 1080i modes. It looks pretty fantastic on my Panasonic 4k. I first ran it using my Sony XBR 910 CRT 34" Widescreen and in 1080i it had a little flickering, but on the 4k, 1080i looks great since the TV is upscaling to 4k and it removes the flicker that was happening on the Sony.
The only issue as mentioned is I have wavy lines, sometimes it is crystal clear, but most of the time the wavy lines persist. After a lot of testing with different VGA cables, monitors, TV's, I determined that it is the VGA box causing the lines.
In a related news item, I received another scaler box that takes a Scart Sega Saturn cable and then upscales to 1080p via HDMI. It looks great. Colors look fantastic on my 4k and I am not noticing much input lag if any. Really happy with this little box that makes the Saturn looks much better than using S-Video which is what I was using on my Sony 34" CRT.
Sega Playstation
Neo Member
Hey Gaf I am back. Ok I changed my scart cable out for the Csync version of scart. The scart works on my older version snes, but I have a snes 1chip-03 and there is no picture. Is there something broken in my snes 1chip-03?
I'm interested in this box. Could you give us some more info on it? A name or place to buy maybe
D.Lo
Member
Yeah there's no worry about scaling already scaled stuff to 4K - it's an integer multiple of 240p, 720p and 1080p.
Really what a 4K Framemeister could bring to the table would be more scanline width options. Or perhaps even non-square pixel emulation.
Another thing about 4K - more pixels to scale nicely with when zooming.
Who wants to zoom? Well, zooming in on GBA games on the Game Boy Player, which has given me these delicious results:
GCN via D-terminal to Framemeister to 4K Sony:
Really what a 4K Framemeister could bring to the table would be more scanline width options. Or perhaps even non-square pixel emulation.
Another thing about 4K - more pixels to scale nicely with when zooming.
Who wants to zoom? Well, zooming in on GBA games on the Game Boy Player, which has given me these delicious results:
GCN via D-terminal to Framemeister to 4K Sony:
geniusbits
Member
I'm not sure this is possible, the "scanlines" you see in still images from 480i sources may just be the odd/even undrawn lines every other frame. Although, I did have this question before and wasn't satisfied with the answer, if you have a display like the HD BVM/PVMs that can do 720p and 1080i, and you feed it 480i, and it isn't upscaling, wouldn't it show scanlines?
geniusbits
Member
How long did you guys wait for your beharbros order? I'm getting worried, I ordered it over a month ago and the Turkish tracking site said it left Turkey January 12th. I have no idea what to do about it, there's no domestic tracking ability (I'm in NJ, USA).
XRGB Mini-GAF, I've had a problem with the Framemeister for a while and I am hoping someone can help me nail down what's going on!
Periodically my Framemeister "loses sync," but more specifically, it goes black for a few moments, the "Input Link" light on the unit goes out, the screen shows nothing, and then the screen returns to normal.
The problem is, this happens with all of my consoles, and happens pretty frequently. It seems to happen in bursts, like one dropout happens, and a few more happen within the next minute, and it can make playing certain games almost impossible.
I've tried messing with the sync settings, turning the level up and down, but nothing has really fixed it.
I thought maybe there was some setting on my TV that could be causing it, but I couldn't find anything for HDMI settings.
To make things even weirder, this happens when there is no console even giving signal to the Framemeister. Like, if I leave it on with just a blue screen for a while, I'll notice that it periodically does the same thing, screen goes black for 3-5 seconds, "Input Link" goes out, then comes back.
Anyone have any idea what could be causing this?! Thanks
Periodically my Framemeister "loses sync," but more specifically, it goes black for a few moments, the "Input Link" light on the unit goes out, the screen shows nothing, and then the screen returns to normal.
The problem is, this happens with all of my consoles, and happens pretty frequently. It seems to happen in bursts, like one dropout happens, and a few more happen within the next minute, and it can make playing certain games almost impossible.
I've tried messing with the sync settings, turning the level up and down, but nothing has really fixed it.
I thought maybe there was some setting on my TV that could be causing it, but I couldn't find anything for HDMI settings.
To make things even weirder, this happens when there is no console even giving signal to the Framemeister. Like, if I leave it on with just a blue screen for a while, I'll notice that it periodically does the same thing, screen goes black for 3-5 seconds, "Input Link" goes out, then comes back.
Anyone have any idea what could be causing this?! Thanks
Well I did see a Trinitron in person recently and I think the scanlines were there but it was in the dilation room of my eye doctor of all places. I didn't want to be that one guy staring point blank at the screen so... I have never seen a PVM/BVM in person nor have I seen any other consumer TV that shows 480 scanlines, but if the HD professional monitors display 15KHz images natively then there absolutely should be scanlines.
Flizzzipper
Member
Mine took about a month once I got shipping confirmation.
A couple people here said it takes up 2 months for the Behar Bros stuff to deliver. I ordered from them yesterday and expect a long wait. Just gotta be patient.
That's exactly what 480i represents. Photographing a 480i game will capture the odd or even lines unless you use a slow shutter speed and end up capturing both fields.
Regarding HD CRTs, it doesn't matter if it is HD capable. If it is multi scan and can do 15KHz/SD resolutions, 240p and 480i content will look the same as in any SD monitor with similar tube characteristics. You would see the same quickly alternating scanlines in 480i. I have seen this firsthand on my HD CRT.
On a related note, at 480p you can see thin gaps in the lines up close with your own eyes. Wii at 480p: http://i.imgur.com/jQFFa6K.jpg
There are probably extremely fine lines at 720p but you might need the magnification assistance from a good camera to see it (or maybe not and the extreme thinness and proximity would cause them to blur together, especially with phosphor glow). I think I'll check later for my own curiosity. I was trying a few games at 1080i and could not see the alternating scanlines of 480i. I think they're too fine and to the naked eye looks like a somewhat softer progressive image.
That's exactly what 480i represents. Photographing a 480i game will capture the odd or even lines unless you use a slow shutter speed and end up capturing both fields.
Regarding HD CRTs, it doesn't matter if it is HD capable. If it is multi scan and can do 15KHz/SD resolutions, 240p and 480i content will look the same as in any SD monitor with similar tube characteristics. You would see the same quickly alternating scanlines in 480i. I have seen this firsthand on my HD CRT.
On a related note, at 480p you can see thin gaps in the lines up close with your own eyes. Wii at 480p: http://i.imgur.com/jQFFa6K.jpg
There are probably extremely fine lines at 720p but you might need the magnification assistance from a good camera to see it (or maybe not and the extreme thinness and proximity would cause them to blur together, especially with phosphor glow). I think I'll check later for my own curiosity. I was trying a few games at 1080i and could not see the alternating scanlines of 480i. I think they're too fine and to the naked eye looks like a somewhat softer progressive image.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
It was about a month for me, too, but I bought my Hanzo right as the current model was coming out, so there was a bit of a delay.
It's totally worth the wait, though.
A firm no if it's for everyday gameplay. Uncomfortably small. 13-14" should be your minimum.
This is a solid deal on a very good PVM:
http://ebay.com/itm/SONY-PVM-14L2-TRINITRON-COLOR-VIDEO-14-MONITOR-/252286326499
If anyone in the NYC area is interested, I am selling my JVC 17" HD CRT monitor with one of the rare RHB/Component cards included...$130 just to recoup the money I paid for it.
I'm only selling because I got another of the exact model in perfect condition. The one I'm selling has color purity problems in the top left corner and top right area. It's not noticeable in certain games, mostly in reds, and there's a simple magnet trick at power up I did to get it not to show... but every power-up degauss and manual degauss brings it back.
Anyway, it's an extremely capable and high quality monitor. Very portable, small and light for its screen size (10x better than the depth, bulk and weight of any 19-20" PVM/BVM). If you ditch this or upgrade, you can keep the input card and use it on the 19" SD and HD JVCs and Panasonics with matching input slots.
Would shaders have to be specifically customized to take advantage of 4k resolution in order for the shader effects to more accurately mimic scanlines and phosphor glow?
The Hylian shader is nice, definitely the best I tried so far... although on my 1080p plasma it still doesn't look as good as any of my CRTs.
The Hylian shader is nice, definitely the best I tried so far... although on my 1080p plasma it still doesn't look as good as any of my CRTs.
NormalFish
Banned
I feel like the quality of CRT shaders will scale really well with resolution. Way easier to emulate the look of a CRT when you have 4x the pixels, obviously. Will be interesting to see what can be done at 4k.
geniusbits
Member
So if an HD CRT is being given 15khz signal, it will only draw 480 lines? Whereas if it is given a 31khz signal, it will draw 720 progressive or 1080 interlaced lines? Wouldn't that also produce scan lines, since the lines drawn in 15khz mode will have more space in between them, as the same screen size is being divided up into 480 parts rather than 720-1080? The drawn lines are always the same size right?
NormalFish
Banned
So this little scaling device has been creating some buzz on shmups for a while. Fudoh finally has a review: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ossc.html
Pretty fantastic device if you've got a display to support its various features.
**
Should be a MLIG review coming up soon. Which reminds me of their NGC RGB video coming up. I don't know if they decided to include the various mods currently in development. They have prototypes of at least a couple afaik.
Pretty fantastic device if you've got a display to support its various features.
**
Should be a MLIG review coming up soon. Which reminds me of their NGC RGB video coming up. I don't know if they decided to include the various mods currently in development. They have prototypes of at least a couple afaik.
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