SuperCambot
Banned
That was 720p, 1080p is even worse. Might be my TV? It's a 2007-ish Sony Bravia XBR2.
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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That was 720p, 1080p is even worse. Might be my TV? It's a 2007-ish Sony Bravia XBR2.
Ban Puncher
Member
Could I daisy-chain 2 or 3 Selecty 21's together or is that science finally going too far?
There should be no problem in doing so, maybe an ever so slightly dimmer picture if the switches aren't well built.
But seeing the price of a single Selecty 21 unit, I would seriously consider switching to a Scart setup if I were you.
geniusbits
Member
Lulz, scan lines help with the breaks.
Strangely though, both of the devices I read this thread through have never given me trouble with it as shown by Mega.
This happens to me when the scaling is stretched in the vertical or horizontal direction and it's not correc to the aspect ratio anymore.
Try making sure your Zoom setting is Off and your Image Mode is on "Normal" or "Smart X2" This should give you a reference for proper scanline distribution, and you can go from there!
Might be caused by overscan. On Sony TVs I believe you disable overscan by setting 'Display Area' to 'Full Pixel'.
Well, I want to give my last post some more weight regarding what I said about
the colors.
RGB
For NTSC broadcast video (RF) it is necessary to limit the composite video to
a maximum of 120 IRE (signal excursion 133 IRE). Say we also add a small
safety factor of 5% such that we limit the signal to 114 IRE. If we now simply
clip the composite video signal, we get color/hue errors as can be seen in
the image below;
clipping: 114 IRE
luma
Look at cyan. Not only do we get hue errors but the luma value is also a bit
down offsetting the gray-scale ramp which hurts a bit on b/w TV.
I wrote a proper scaling method to scale the colors in such a way that hue
will always be preserved but saturation may suffer while trying to keep the
luma constant depending on the composite limit. Hence, I try to satisfy the
composite limit by turning down the saturation level first, i.e. by limiting
the chroma amplitude. If this ins't possible than the luma components needs to
be scaled down as well. I've also implemented a way to say that the chroma
signal's amplitute should stay constant. The algorithm then computes the
proper luma reduction to satisfy the composite limit, i.e. 114 IRE in this
case, which can be seen in the picture below;
scaling: 114 IRE, |chroma| = 0.31
luma
If I haven't made any mistakes, then these colors should be the proper/safe
NTSC broadcast colors with a safty factor of 5% being transmitted over RF
(without any distortions due to the transmission channel or from a TV at the
end of the line). As one can see, the colors are desaturated but the hue
remains the same. The gray-scale ramp looks also a tad better compared to the
clipped solution (look at yellow's and cyan's luma value).
Well, say we don't transmit over RF, yet want to stay compatible with the NTSC
standard of maximal composite signal amplitude of 120 IRE. So lets use the
full range of 120 IRE (maximal signal range 133 IRE) which will give us a bit
more room to increase the colors saturation levels making them more vibrant as
can be seen in the next picture;
scaling: 120 IRE, |chroma| = 0.31
However, the supposed to be fully saturated colors are still a tad too
desaturated (which isn't a big problem for general TV, because there won't be
any fully saturated colors recorded from natural scenes). But if we are
willing to sacrifices a tad on the luma component of yellow we get a bit more
room to increase all the color's saturation levels while still satisfying the
composite signal limit, which can be seen here;
scaling: 120 IRE, |chroma| = 0.37
As you can see, all colors are more saturated yet, but yellow needs to be
turned down in luma offsetting the gray-scale ramp a bit, which isn't a big
deal if you stay on color all the time. I think I've seen this case the most,
i.e. with yellow somewhat down to increase overall saturation.
With the examples given above one can see how diverse the problem is just for
the colors on composite video. Not speaking of any other distortions due to
a transmission channel, color oscillator drift, weak color passband
characteristic etc.
Ah ... don't bother about the bumps in the images, they are NTSC video filter
artifacts and are in part also due to processing gamma corrected RGB values.
Btw; Retrotron is a TV simulator under development.
the colors.
RGB
For NTSC broadcast video (RF) it is necessary to limit the composite video to
a maximum of 120 IRE (signal excursion 133 IRE). Say we also add a small
safety factor of 5% such that we limit the signal to 114 IRE. If we now simply
clip the composite video signal, we get color/hue errors as can be seen in
the image below;
clipping: 114 IRE
luma
Look at cyan. Not only do we get hue errors but the luma value is also a bit
down offsetting the gray-scale ramp which hurts a bit on b/w TV.
I wrote a proper scaling method to scale the colors in such a way that hue
will always be preserved but saturation may suffer while trying to keep the
luma constant depending on the composite limit. Hence, I try to satisfy the
composite limit by turning down the saturation level first, i.e. by limiting
the chroma amplitude. If this ins't possible than the luma components needs to
be scaled down as well. I've also implemented a way to say that the chroma
signal's amplitute should stay constant. The algorithm then computes the
proper luma reduction to satisfy the composite limit, i.e. 114 IRE in this
case, which can be seen in the picture below;
scaling: 114 IRE, |chroma| = 0.31
luma
If I haven't made any mistakes, then these colors should be the proper/safe
NTSC broadcast colors with a safty factor of 5% being transmitted over RF
(without any distortions due to the transmission channel or from a TV at the
end of the line). As one can see, the colors are desaturated but the hue
remains the same. The gray-scale ramp looks also a tad better compared to the
clipped solution (look at yellow's and cyan's luma value).
Well, say we don't transmit over RF, yet want to stay compatible with the NTSC
standard of maximal composite signal amplitude of 120 IRE. So lets use the
full range of 120 IRE (maximal signal range 133 IRE) which will give us a bit
more room to increase the colors saturation levels making them more vibrant as
can be seen in the next picture;
scaling: 120 IRE, |chroma| = 0.31
However, the supposed to be fully saturated colors are still a tad too
desaturated (which isn't a big problem for general TV, because there won't be
any fully saturated colors recorded from natural scenes). But if we are
willing to sacrifices a tad on the luma component of yellow we get a bit more
room to increase all the color's saturation levels while still satisfying the
composite signal limit, which can be seen here;
scaling: 120 IRE, |chroma| = 0.37
As you can see, all colors are more saturated yet, but yellow needs to be
turned down in luma offsetting the gray-scale ramp a bit, which isn't a big
deal if you stay on color all the time. I think I've seen this case the most,
i.e. with yellow somewhat down to increase overall saturation.
With the examples given above one can see how diverse the problem is just for
the colors on composite video. Not speaking of any other distortions due to
a transmission channel, color oscillator drift, weak color passband
characteristic etc.
Ah ... don't bother about the bumps in the images, they are NTSC video filter
artifacts and are in part also due to processing gamma corrected RGB values.
Btw; Retrotron is a TV simulator under development.
Ban Puncher
Member
I'm in far too deep with JP-21 connections. Rebuying SCART cables and an adaptor for the Framemeister would negate any potential savings.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
I wouldn't know, because I wouldn't read any of them. I will say, though, those code blocks he just tried using looked worlds better. They're still silly, but I'd have been okay with them.
Come back, Missile! If only we knew what you'd been trying to tell us this whole time!
StevieWhite
Member
Surprised he got banned. He seemed like he was trying to help. I think.
thechristoph
Sir!
Man.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gamecollec...week_i_decided_i_wanted_a_sony_pvm_this_week/
Man.
Talk about a treasure trove.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gamecollec...week_i_decided_i_wanted_a_sony_pvm_this_week/
Man.
Talk about a treasure trove.
Check your overscan options. You want no cropping at all so that all of the lines are on the right row of pixels.
Some HDTVs scale 720p to 1080p uniquely which can lead to the clumpy fake scan lines. Usually, HDTVs that do this are cropping a small portion of the screen for overscan.
My old tv (Panasonic plasma) did the same thing as yours but my new one (Sony lcd) does not. It's not the Mini's fault.
That said, try the different "smart" scaling options on the bottom of your framemeister remote to resize the image.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
Yeah. If I had a truck and the desire to drive for two hours, there was a seller on Craigslist that had a dozen of the damn things that they were looking to offload for relatively cheap.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
I've run an XRGB-3 on my parents' XBR2, and haven't had this problem, so I suspect that isn't it. Unless you have a weird overscan setting enabled, possibly.
Yeah, it's in the Screen Settings area of the menu. Here's the manual, if you don't have yours, anymore: https://itg.beckman.illinois.edu/vi...equipment/multimedia/manuals/KDL40-46XBR2.pdf
However, there's a chance that fixing the overscan still may not do the trick. I have a (different) Sony that insists on stretching the Framemeister's 720p picture, rather than scaling it properly. Screws up my scanlines, too. Doesn't happen with my other TV. There may be some Framemeister or TV setting that can compensate, but I have to experiment more.
theSlacker
Member
That is a helpful tip that didn't even occur to me. Even though I never plan on getting rid of my system, it's still something that I need to remember to tell other people about that are considering doing the same thing.
RadarScope1
Member
No way missile got banned for the content of the posts we see here in the retro threads. If that was so then Jeff Rigby would have been toast years ago. Nobody writes more confusing gobbledegook on GAF than that guy. But personally I am glad people like this are here. Some folks like going down the rabbit hole.
Must have been something else.
Must have been something else.
Omg at Jeff Rigby comment. I literally laughed uncontrollably on a crowded bus reading that.
Missle is definitely a cool dude. His PSN username is "ps". How effing cool is that?
And I personally like his posts and his bizarre TV simulator project.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
i looked into
this and fou
nd that he w
as given a v
ery short ba
n with a mes
sage indicat
ing that his
posting styl
e was disrup
tive particul
arly on mob
ile. no one h
ad an issue
with the con
tent of his p
osts. Just t
he style. h
ope this cl
arifies what
went on.
Haha! Glad it was temporary. Free missile!
theSlacker
Member
I don't know if this changes anything but a post a page ago indicates that his "style" is from the hardware he posts from;
I'm pretty sure that's because Missile is posting from a typewriter/carrier pigeon setup.
RadarScope1
Member
LOL, thanks Stump.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Maybe he can upgrade to at least Dreamcast-era browsing tech.
ToastyFrog
Inexplicable Treasure Hate
Dear people who are much smarter and more technically capable than I am, please grant me the boon of your advice.
I am attempting to get all my RGB-capable game consoles running through my PVM before upscaling them for capture, which has proven to be as complicated as you'd think. NES works fine, but I'm having a hell of a time with my modded SNES Mini and N64 (which share the same A/V cable I just swap as needed). I'm using the official Nintendo Japanese RGB21 cable for those systems, which terminates in an SCART-style lead. My PVM, however, requires component (BNC) cables. After searching the various reputable and recommended online specialty retailers, I was completely unable to find female RGB21 to component BNC cables outside of a single eBay seller (everyone else only offers European SCART to component). So I took the plunge, and the results are almost great, except...
...bright screens cause this distortion. It's not rolling the way it does if I remove the composite sync cable this warping effect is static. And it only shows up on bright screens; I tried it with Castlevania IV and the Konami logo screen (which is white) distorted, but the first stage and title screen (which are dark) looked great... except during lightning flashes, where the image would warp again for as long as the screen was white (a couple of frames).
I've spent some time testing different arrangements, and the problem isn't with the SNES Mini, as the N64 suffers from the same problem with this setup. It presumably isn't the RGB21 cable, either, since I don't see this issue if I bypass the PVM and go straight to the upscaler.
So, I'm wondering if anyone has any advice for:
(1) how to fix the RGB21 to component cable, bearing in mind I have no electrical skills whatsoever, or
(2) recommendations on a more effective RGB-modded SNES/N64-to-component solution that doesn't involve having been an HD Retrovision Kickstarter backer.
Any help would be greatly appreciated! Surely someone else out there has an RGB SNES hooked up to a PVM and can steer me right...
I am attempting to get all my RGB-capable game consoles running through my PVM before upscaling them for capture, which has proven to be as complicated as you'd think. NES works fine, but I'm having a hell of a time with my modded SNES Mini and N64 (which share the same A/V cable I just swap as needed). I'm using the official Nintendo Japanese RGB21 cable for those systems, which terminates in an SCART-style lead. My PVM, however, requires component (BNC) cables. After searching the various reputable and recommended online specialty retailers, I was completely unable to find female RGB21 to component BNC cables outside of a single eBay seller (everyone else only offers European SCART to component). So I took the plunge, and the results are almost great, except...
...bright screens cause this distortion. It's not rolling the way it does if I remove the composite sync cable this warping effect is static. And it only shows up on bright screens; I tried it with Castlevania IV and the Konami logo screen (which is white) distorted, but the first stage and title screen (which are dark) looked great... except during lightning flashes, where the image would warp again for as long as the screen was white (a couple of frames).
I've spent some time testing different arrangements, and the problem isn't with the SNES Mini, as the N64 suffers from the same problem with this setup. It presumably isn't the RGB21 cable, either, since I don't see this issue if I bypass the PVM and go straight to the upscaler.
So, I'm wondering if anyone has any advice for:
(1) how to fix the RGB21 to component cable, bearing in mind I have no electrical skills whatsoever, or
(2) recommendations on a more effective RGB-modded SNES/N64-to-component solution that doesn't involve having been an HD Retrovision Kickstarter backer.
Any help would be greatly appreciated! Surely someone else out there has an RGB SNES hooked up to a PVM and can steer me right...
geniusbits
Member
Missile Defense Force
geniusbits
Member
Are you sure you are inputting component and not RGsB?
ToastyFrog
Inexplicable Treasure Hate
It could be RGsB? The cables use composite for the sync signal, whatever that pegs it as. I'm honestly not 100% clear on how all this works... I'm using a Sony PVM, though, and my understanding is that it can handle either signal just fine. If it were an RGsB/component incompatibility all I'd see would be a big green blank, right? I see a perfect picture when the screen's overall brightness is fairly low, but it distorts (without color errors) during bright scenes.
Your phrasing is a little weird. Your PVM requires BNC cables (not component cables) to accept composite, component or RGB signals. There is a 1-RCA composite cable and 3-RCA component cable... you need RCA-to-BNC adapters to plug those into your PVM. Remember that there's a distinction between connector type and signal type. Basically, neither of your Nintendo consoles output component signal and neither use component cables. What you bought is probably a RGB21 Scart to 4-BNC adapter cable to bridge your consoles to your PVM. Was it this one?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Female-RGB2...ega-SNES-Neo-Geo-Japanese-SCART-/191794978225
I think it's likely that the console scart cable you bought is using "composite video for sync", but your consoles are wired for "composite sync" (SNES most likely) and/or "luma as sync" (N64 most likely).
Note: composite/pure/raw sync is not the same as composite video sync. I think that's were people get thrown off and get the wrong thing. There's also sync on green but I think hardly any device uses that. All my consoles are composite sync and luma sync.
Edit: Read this, perfectly explains it: Demystifying RGB & Sync
ToastyFrog
Inexplicable Treasure Hate
Yes, it's those cables. I apologize for coming off as a thundering dolt. I'm out of my element and am ultimately just trying to figure out how I can get an RGB-modded SNES and N64 running on a PVM. Information on this has proven bizarrely elusive online.
geniusbits
Member
You probably need a different RGB cable that has the correct sync, as Mega is explaining above. Either that or to interpose a sync stripper between your console out and the PVM to turn your composite-video-as-sync signal into pure sync. Interesting that the sync only drops out in bright colors.
NormalFish
Banned
Howdy, folks.
Got a sync/pvm question.
I'm using luma sync cables from my ps2 to framemeister at the moment. Would this work with the standard scart -> bnc (without sync stripper) cable that folks use for a PVM that doesn't freak out if it doesn't have pure sync?
**
Also RIP missile. I enjoyed his posts even if reading them on mobile gave me diseases.
Got a sync/pvm question.
I'm using luma sync cables from my ps2 to framemeister at the moment. Would this work with the standard scart -> bnc (without sync stripper) cable that folks use for a PVM that doesn't freak out if it doesn't have pure sync?
**
Also RIP missile. I enjoyed his posts even if reading them on mobile gave me diseases.
Just noticed you said you're using the official scart cable. What type of sync is that wired for? Composite/pure? Whatever the case I think there's a mismatch between your cable and consoles.
Scart cable = composite/pure?
SNES Mini = composite video? (assuming the csync mod wasn't done with the RGB mod)
N64 = luma sync? (most common RGB mod)
entremet
Member
Is there any particular reason he's doing that lol?
I don't get it lol.
It's a short ban. He'll be back.
theSlacker
Member
Hopefully. If he can't post using the equipment he wants then who knows if he will feel like returning when his ban is up. Guess we will see.
The ban was stupid to begin with. The guy was useful to this small community and his peculiar posting habits could have been dealt with by the use of private messages, aka diplomacy. Banning him, even temporarily will just sour him and prevent him from posting again.
entremet
Member
I would agree with this. Such silly reasoning. He wasn't bothering anyone.
It's a bit upsetting really that someone who is honestly trying to help out and was offering some really interesting technical info was basically told to fuck off in this thread by nearly everyone. He was being quirky, but what's wrong with that? It's not like he was fucking up the board at large, I've only ever seen him in this thread.
Wouldn't be surprised if he never came back. Ah well.
Wouldn't be surprised if he never came back. Ah well.
NormalFish
Banned
I got banned before him, so it wasn't me.
Hi Rich! Didn't think an emulation enthusiast such as yourself would be posting much in here. Welcome!
By the way, I just tried out the Saturn's AV output - holy crap that is some clean looking, sharp as hell composite. One of the cleanest I've ever seen.
It will hold me over until my SCART cable arrives in the next day or so.... but damn son.... it looks as clean as most s-video connections.
By the way, I just tried out the Saturn's AV output - holy crap that is some clean looking, sharp as hell composite. One of the cleanest I've ever seen.
It will hold me over until my SCART cable arrives in the next day or so.... but damn son.... it looks as clean as most s-video connections.
I imagine some guy squinting at a CRT... not one of these cool RGB PVM wonder screens... A messy monochromatic tube that was salvaged and modified from an old osciliscope. Coils and capacitors exposed. He picks at a mechanical keys, and every couple of presses you hear the grind of an anctient hard disk with a max capacity of 8KB. To connect to the World Wide Web is an almost ritualistic affair that requires the precise sequence of exchanging various 8 inch floppy discs on this computational machine and spools of magnetic tape on the panel of an 8 foot tall piece of equipment that serves the aproximate functions of what we know as "a modem."
Why would someone confine themselves to such archaic means of communication? What purpose does any of serve? Who the fuck knows, but that's probably missle.
Either way, he definitely knew more than perhaps any of us about the intricacies that make our do-hickey vidya game machines and color television sets do whatever it is they do to make pretty colors.
Why would someone confine themselves to such archaic means of communication? What purpose does any of serve? Who the fuck knows, but that's probably missle.
Either way, he definitely knew more than perhaps any of us about the intricacies that make our do-hickey vidya game machines and color television sets do whatever it is they do to make pretty colors.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Oh man I used to be in this thread loads! I had a framemeister, RGB ready consoles (SNES mini, NES, megadrive, n64, ps1), two RGB CRTs (one small Toshiba, one 28" 4:3 Sony)
I had to downscale due to moving house sadly and now half is in storage and half sold. Emulation is just a viable alternative really.
I also did my own modification too, set up new digital audio circuits on a few SNES consoles, added Phono sockets to my Super Game Boy 2, etc
Don't worry dude, I remember when you were always around here
I know you'll be back in full form someday!
This is super upsetting that I can't identify any of these computers apart from the Spectrum.
Emulation is definitely an alternative to HDMI mods and Framemeisters. There is no more added lag, the picture is as artificial (and can be tweaked to the users desire), and it definitely takes much less space. And with stuff like the Retrode you can still use your original cartridges.
CRT with original machines > * though.
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