dancrane212
Member
Good idea. I'll have to keep that in mind when I start looking.
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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Good idea. I'll have to keep that in mind when I start looking.
Correct. Yet some TVs have some tiny holes on the back for reaching the focus
or/and screen pots. Some TVs have the pots on the flyback, yet others have
them just nearby.
You are right about your reasoning. It doesn't have the same effect.
Let me explain it another way.
The focus of a TV can modify the TVs TVLs, but other components of the TV play
a huge part as well. One can see (on a frequency wedge) how the TVs TVLs
decrease when defocusing. But filter delays, for example, can likewise
decrease a TVs TVLs etc..
Now if you have a high TVL razor-sharp BVM you can defocus a bit more to lower
its TVL value somewhat while at the same time increase the thickness of its
scanlines (better; the region of the spot profile scanning out the lines).
This may bring ones BVM in the range of a lower-TVLed PVM (of the same screen
size as the BVM) already having slightly more defocused scanlines matching its
lower TVLs.
So what I say is that tuning the focus of a razor-sharp BVM may improve the
retro gaming experience. This is similar to what D.Lo has shown by showing the
the following pictures
Framemeister
His PVM
The Framemeister here can be considered high-TVLed. Now if you would decrease
the Framemeister's TVLs somewhat while also blurring the scanlines to some
degree vertically, you would get a similar image as the PVM shows, sort of. On
a real TV you can use the focus to do it by defocusing, which will reduce the
TVs TVLs a bit while also blurring the scanlines a bit more.
From a historical point of view, all standard sized consumer TVs are a bit
out-of-focus so to speak. It was found out earlier in the development of TV
that with the TV fully in-focus the scanlines become annoying for people even
when watching from the intended viewing position. Additionally, it was found
out that blurring the picture vertically (to some degree) actually improves
image perception for humans esp. when looking at images of other people on
TV. Hence, the scanlines of standard TVs do overlap to some degree.
The reduction of TVLs by defocusing won't necessarily decrease the quality of
the displayed video, if the video source is of lower bandwidth and if the TV
has plenty of TVLs to begin with. That is to say; ones BVM may still be able
to resolve the full detail of the video source even if its TVLs will be
somewhat reduced. The only thing you really loose (to some degree) are those
razor-sharp dot transitions on a scanline, but this can be an advantage for
retro gaming on a BVM because I've heard people saying that an BVMs high TVLs
and sharp scanlines won't necessarily produce a good retro gaming experience
while playing older titles. So my ansatz perhaps is a way to improve on the
experience.
goldenpp72
Member
Hey guys, I had a quick question i'm not sure anyone here could help me with. I'm using a framemeister like a lot of you and I notice a small issue. Whenever a screen is fully black or has a lot of black on it, I notice it's a bit... I don't want to see fuzzy, maybe distorted? It looks pretty good still but I was wondering if this is normal or something wrong with my setup?
I notice it a lot when booting up games like KOTOR on xbox or playing Atari games on it with a lot of black.
I notice it a lot when booting up games like KOTOR on xbox or playing Atari games on it with a lot of black.
StevieWhite
Member
What type of connection?
NormalFish
Banned
try raising your black levels a bit. could be a bit of interference being made more obvious by not having 'true' blacks.
goldenpp72
Member
For the Xbox, component, for the Atari consoles, all of them are S-Video.
Do you mean through the TV or through the framemeister itself?
NormalFish
Banned
On the framemeister. can't remember the exact submenu off the top of my head but it's with the color settings, I think.
Hold on. So you're saying that the focus lowers the actual number of on-screen television lines? It de-focuses by drawing less vertical lines/putting more space between the vertical lines? That would be great if true, because I was thinking of it like a camera losing focus on a subject and everything is a nasty blur.
Flizzzipper
Member
I think I know what you are talking about but I only experience it on certain shades of solid colors. I would describe them almost like slight heat wave looking things. I don't think I've ever seen it on black so maybe you are experiencing a different problem.
Firebrandx mentions this because I was looking into the problem myself. http://www.firebrandx.com/generalframemeisternotes.html
NormalFish
Banned
if you've got the right model and don't mind a bit of risk, it's apparently super easy to do. Might as well do it yourself instead of having someone else do it.
Assuming by "getting my..." you meant having someone else do it.
If you got the funds for it, maybe get the HDMI mod since you play on HDTV/Framemeister (right?). The picture is better than upscaled RGB and it has that godly de-blur. I'm in the process of obtaining one. I can't deal with what the damn blur filter does on a sharp monitor.
What was the recommended hdmi to component converter? I forget.
It's a NS1 model so it should work.=p
I heard you can't use the de-blur option when the connection is directly through HDMI(got it from this post), which sucks as I use direct connections for recordings. Also, I only play through my capture cards as I don't game on TVs anymore.
NormalFish
Banned
I read that post as being a choice between the processing lag (and deblur) or no lag (and no deblur) rather than an issue with HDMI. If you're gaming on a capture card though, an extra frame might be a pain.
This post meant that you can turn off further processing of the image in a sort of pass through via HDMI for no/less lag. De-blur option is a process that would add a bit of lag, but it works fine over HDMI. I mean... It's an HDMI mod... It'd be monumentaly stupid for one if its own features not to work over HDMI.
Ah that makes sense, though it sucks that the best feature has lag with it. For someone like me who uses capture cards this is a really bad thing as I can't stand lag and I play a lot of fighters and shooters so that would affect me. Guess I'll stick with the RGB mod since it's cheaper and still an improvement plus it's still easy for me to record with it.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Do you know any good modders that actually have it in stock?
Yes.
No.
The maximum number of TVLs aren't a fixed value nor is this value of discreet
nature and is also up to interpretation to some degree. It's a "continuous"
value measuring the maximal resolution / overall bandwidth / resolving power
of an analog TV. It answers the question; what is the highest signal frequency
a given TV can reproduce? To get the answer you could display a frequency
wedge which is part of most test images
(the one in the top-center)
to find out how many alternating black and white lines can be placed next to
each other. However, there is no discreet cutoff since due to the analog
nature of CRTs and their analog driving circuitry the lines smoothly start to
blend into a grey (up until DC). The point till you can differentiate the
lines before they turn into a gray is your TVs TVL value. But you can imagine
that at this point the displayed signal has already lost most of its higher
frequency content when displayed on the screen, as can be seen on the image
above, i.e. the lines are no longer very distinct from each other, the edges
of the black and white lines start to blend into gray, but you can still
differentiate the lines because their peaks of black and white still hold up.
So at the end of the wedge (towards maximum TVL) you are left with only the
fundamental frequency on the screen your TV is able to reproduce. From here on
out the alternating peaks (black/white) of the fundamental frequency will
decrease, converging towards DC of 0Hz, a gray value.
So in the photo above (not the best photo to make an absolute judgement, but
sufficient to bring the point across), taken off from a TV, we see that the TV
is able to resolve a video signal of about 3.5MHz which translates to about
300 TV lines (TVL). And here you can see also why the TVL is up to
interpretation to a given degree. One may say that (s)he can differentiate
the lines at 3.75 or even 4MHz. However, the higher harmonics are all gone.
I think a good number here would be 3MHz, rating the TV at 250 TVLs. Well,
I've seen software which tries to calculate the amount of TVLs by taking an
input image of a such a wedge taken with a high quality/resolution camera
off of a TV.
Now what happens if we start to de-focus the TV?
The frequency limit will drop, say from 3MHz to 2MHz (for our example here)
bringing the TV down from 250 to just 200 TVLs. But we didn't drop any lines
whatsoever from the source. The missing lines are there, they are just on
their way towards DC so to speak. Basically, one can de-focus a TV close to DC
(0Hz), but the focusing pots won't usually allow to do so, they are somewhat
limited in range (useful range say).
Another point of importance is that a TVs TVLs does also depend on its
circuitry. A high frequency video signal entering the TV will undergo low-pass
filtering cutting off its higher frequencies. This happens when the TV hasn't
enough bandwidth to deal with such signals. Hence, a TV needs a lot of
bandwidth on its own. For example, say you want to feed a square wave of 4MHz
fundamental frequency into your TV. Such a wave has an infinite amount of
higher harmonics. A good representation starts at the 21st harmonics. So all
the harmonics up to the 21st needs to remain in the signal. If we now want
our TV to be able to process such a signal without cutting off the signals
higher harmonics up until the 21st, its video circuitry needs a bandwidth of
4MHz*21 = 84MHz. Now image an amplifier in the signals path required to
amplify over such a bandwidth with the least mount of distortions, i.e. to be
able to reproduce the signal at the output up to the 21st harmonics without
distorting the waveform (the higher harmonics), without introducing non-linear
phase delays etc. Any such distortions will have an adverse effect of a TVs
TVLs.
I want to give another example.
On composite video you need a delay line to delay at least the luma signal.
The luma signal is faster because its low-pass filter has a higher bandwidth
than the filters used for the chroma components, which are of lower bandwidth.
So basically all the three signals for NTSC video, i.e. Y, I, and Q, are all
out of phase! The Q components is the slowest (0.5MHz bandwidth). However, the
NTSC standard wasn't followed so closely and the filtering characteristics of
NTSC is the one of PAL video (treating I and Q like U and V in PAL with the
same bandwidth) which is also one part of why NTSC video consoles display bad
coloring on NTSC video, as I've analysed (Genesis video encoders). Different
story. Well, if you don't delay at least the luma signal (about 800-1000ns)
to let the chroma components catch up, your luma will be ahead on the screen
and the colors will be a bit late leading to bad coloring esp. at edges.
Effect? The edges gets messed up with the result that your TVs TVLs will
suffer, in this case depending on color/pixel transition. And while we are at
it, ghosting, ringing etc. all have an adverse effect on the TVs TVLs too.
So basically, it doesn't make sense if the circuitry of a TV is of high
bandwidth if the tube of the TV blurs away the high-frequency content due to
bad focus, wear, etc. On the other hand, a precise tube is of no meaning if
your high frequency video signal gets low-pass filtered, distorted etc. by the
TVs circuitry. This is similar to today's high mega-pixel image sensors, they
are of no meaning if you don't use the right lens. You can make a better image
(higher resolution (TVL)) with a 5MP camera than with a 15MP camera given the
right lens for the 5MP one and a cheap one for the 15MP one. Hence, it all
needs to match.
If you de-focus too much, everything becomes a giant blur, of course. There
is only a small margin where it works as described. And it only makes sense
if the TV is of higher bandwidth and has enough TVLs than is needed for the
incoming video signal, since otherwise one will lose detail (or doesn't make
any sense to begin with). I would try it out myself on a BVM, yet I haven't
one. I'm pretty convinced that a slight adjustment of the sharp focus of a BVM
may lead to a better retro gaming experience. But I could be wrong, since
there are some more parts in here like the aperture grille which may lead to
color artifacts when the beam isn't properly focused. There will be a limit.
But it should be possible up to my understanding.
If there was a way to defocus these screens through menus, I would be up for it. Since I have to open the monitor up and mess with the rings manually, however, I think I will pass on this. I've done it before about 10 years ago on a consumer set, but at the moment I'm not sure if I feel the electrocution risk is worth it 
You don't need to adjust the rings. There is an electrode in the neck of theIf there was a way to defocus these screens through menus, I would be up for it. Since I have to open the monitor up and mess with the rings manually, however, I think I will pass on this. I've done it before about 10 years ago on a consumer set, but at the moment I'm not sure if I feel the electrocution risk is worth it
tube, called focusing electrode, which bundles (or not) the electrons
together by manipulating the potential difference in the neck of the tube via
a given voltage. This focusing voltage is taken off from the flyback
transformer (the one where the big red wire comes out) and can be adjusted via
a pot mounted straight on the back of the flyback transformer itself (or
nearby) like in the image shown below;
I don't know about BVMs, could be possible that one needs a long screwdriver
to reach its focusing pot. In this case I wouldn't recommend doing it if one
hasn't any further experience tinkering around with TVs, because there is high
voltage around the pot. The best case is if the pot is straight on the flyback
transformer itself, which is fully insulated (usually). In any case, always
use a good insulated screwdriver no matter what.
Thanks for the information. If I do get around to doing this some day, I will make sure to post some pictures here before attempting to make the adjustments.
On one hand, the sharp picture looks nice, especially when sitting a little further back. On the other hand, defocusing a tad would probably provide a smoother looking picture.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
I'm following the search term "Video Monitors" on eBay to try to keep an eye on what pops up. The only thing new in my area is someone with 9" Panasonic displays, which he's asking $75 for. Boo.
Yeah, I think a tad is all that's needed.
I never reached the world of 80+ characters per line you guys 'n gals post from.
(edit: Funny. This ^ sentence is actually 80 characters long xD)
No, only the one or two sites that are sold out. I'm getting mine from a guy who isn't an established modder but did one himself and wanted to sell it on another forum I visit (Neo Geo). Normally I'd worry but it looked like he did a very solid job... and the market over there has a higher entry barrier for buying/selling than GAF's own BST thread and overall seems stricter about being honest and upstanding.
He has parts for another one. If you're interested I can reach out to him.
Thanks, missile. That actually made sense. Still, I think expectations should be kept in check for anyone interested in this and it may not be worth digging inside your monitor. I don't know how to describe it, but there are definite characteristics (retro-like, arcade-like) in not just other CRTs but also in older PVMs that aren't replicated by focus adjustment of a BVM (don't mean to imply that you said such a thing in the first place).
I saw a comparison on shmups forum of the "R" in R-Type across different monitors that illustrates the aesthetic differences. I think at best, you can get a BVM to look like a 20M4U, a somewhat less sharp high-end PVM with identical PQ.
drhankmccoyphd
Member
Here's kind of an odd question concerning my setup:
I have a PVM with with multiple consoles connected through a SCART switch into the PVM's BNC. I also have a PS3 (for PS1 games) I'd like to connect over component with some BNC/RCA jacks. The problem is the PVM only has one set of inputs for RGB/Component. I don't really want to switch the inputs every time I want use the PS3. Is there a relatively simple/cheap way of achieving this goal? Yes, I could play the PS3 on the LCD over HDMI, but scanlines!
I have a PVM with with multiple consoles connected through a SCART switch into the PVM's BNC. I also have a PS3 (for PS1 games) I'd like to connect over component with some BNC/RCA jacks. The problem is the PVM only has one set of inputs for RGB/Component. I don't really want to switch the inputs every time I want use the PS3. Is there a relatively simple/cheap way of achieving this goal? Yes, I could play the PS3 on the LCD over HDMI, but scanlines!
I had an idea to use one of this little SCART to component bricks (not a converter just a pass through) and plug that into the SCART switch and then a component system into that. You'd need to run the audio out separately but I do that anyway. I'll give it a try and see if it works if you like?
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
I've asked this in the past but I never really got an answer. Is it possible to step down to S-Video from Component? My monitor doesn't have component connections but if I could somehow get S-Video from my psp go that would be awesome.
drhankmccoyphd
Member
Yeah, I was thinking that as well, but $50 for the SCART-Component box seems a bit pricey all things considered.
edit: nm, seems like all you can get out if the Go is composite or component.
I can confirm Peagles' suggestion works. I have done it for Wii and PS2 component into a scart switch. This assumes the switch is connected to inputs that support component (a few PVMs have RGB but lack component suppport).
Edit: not a converter, it's a cheap little adapter.
One with audio in would be better.
Edit: not a converter, it's a cheap little adapter.
One with audio in would be better.
drhankmccoyphd
Member
Yeah, that might work. Do you have a link where they sell them? Preferably with audio?
That's too messy for my tastes. Here's how I'd do it:
Convert SCART to BNC, then convert BNC to RCA then use a simple non-powered pass-through component switch for all of your stuff that now has RCA ends.
In other words, avoid transcoding signals where ever possible and just use things to change the physical shape of the connectors so that they're all uniform.
Another simple option is to convert your component cables from RCA to BNC then use a BNC switch.
Either way, just use the PVM's settings to switch between SCART and Compoment signals like you normally would.
Transcoding the signal sounds too heavy handed when your PVM already accepts both formats. So just make everything have the proper connectors and use a non-powered switch for that particular type of connection.
The way Peagles is doing it sounds way more expensive than just screwing on some BNC to RCA connectors that come in 10 packs for $5.
Yup that's the one I was going to try. I won't bother testing it since Mega has it covered.
Y'all are misreading, that little brick does not change the signal. It's also tiny, you wouldn't even see it with a SCART switch setup, you'd just have an extra bump at the back of the switch.
I see your edit. The little brick cost me 50c, lol.
You are suggesting SCART to BNC to RCA and buying a component switcher, or doing a new setup with a BNC switcher, but that little brick does SCART straight to RCA. No transcoding, not expensive. Sure if I was starting again I'd think about a BNC setup, but it's not what I'd do with my existing setup.
Y'all are misreading, that little brick does not change the signal. It's also tiny, you wouldn't even see it with a SCART switch setup, you'd just have an extra bump at the back of the switch.
I see your edit. The little brick cost me 50c, lol.
You are suggesting SCART to BNC to RCA and buying a component switcher, or doing a new setup with a BNC switcher, but that little brick does SCART straight to RCA. No transcoding, not expensive. Sure if I was starting again I'd think about a BNC setup, but it's not what I'd do with my existing setup.
We can only find out by trying. Someone needs to do it and post some comparison
shots. Only for the most dedicated videophiles among us, of course!
Indeed, there are many different characteristics. I even think that each
monitor's screen can likewise hold up as its fingerprint.
Check on ebay. I don't recall where I got mine or if it has audio in -- been a long time since I last needed it as I have a pure scart/rca-to-BNC setup.
These are doable but they're all more complex (cabling) than the adapter and range from moderate in cost to outright expensive. The adapter is a few dollars at most that you slot into one of the open inputs in your scart switch setup. Here's an example of it:
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I skip all of his posts for this reason tbh.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Don't want to pick on him too much, but all of his posts are completely unreadable on mobile.
That's a shame. Some of it goes over my head. I wish people with firmer grasp in technical speak than me would engage missles' posts.
sir_kevith
Member
We can only find out by trying. Someone needs to do it and post some comparison
shots. Only for the most dedicated videophiles among us, of course!
Indeed, there are many different characteristics. I even think that each
monitor's screen can likewise hold up as its fingerprint.
I've been working a lot with the K7000 in my Neo Geo cabinet. I was curious what the flybacks looked like in the PVM/BVM and found this link:
http://filthypants.blogspot.com/2015/03/how-to-adjust-focus-on-sony-pvm-monitor.html
Looks like they moved the focus pot on this PVM which is cool. A bit safer to adjust that way. On my K7000 I actually use plastic TV adjustment tools when messing around with any pots. Something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005M6BY2A/?tag=neogaf0e-20
geniusbits
Member
You can't get scan lines out of a PS3, lowest output it does is 480i over component. It doesn't look that good either, the games are designed to run at higher resolution.
drhankmccoyphd
Member
Fair point. I could still use the adapter for retroarch on my Wii. I've been scouring ebay and it seems there's a few Comp-Scart adapters, but none with audio
socksfelloff
Member
Fair point. I could still use the adapter for retroarch on my Wii. I've been scouring ebay and it seems there's a few Comp-Scart adapters, but none with audio
Get this
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/SCART-audio-...341108?hash=item25a0d89f74:g:aucAAOSwv0tU4Lqi
Seriously considering to buy a Framemeister, these days.
Thanks to this very informative series on YT (How to: XRGB-mini), I found out it does all I need for each retro system I own (it even allows to get rid of the colored borders you get with plenty of Mega Drive games, which is fantastic).
The only thing I'd like to figure out, is how the Framemeister renders all those effects you can only get right on a CRT, such as flickering shadows - i.e. those commonly seen in 2D fighting games - and interlaced transparencies (once again, vastly used in SNK/CAPCOM games). I've been told it depends on how the TV actually handles 240p signals, and both my Panasonic Viera - with the Saturn connected straight to their RGB scart socket - fail to display those effects correctly (flickering shadows appear like still scanlined shapes, as well as the fake transparencies, which now just flash intermittently at a lower frequency).
I also have an Asus monitor, but since it only has HDMI/DVI connections, I'm a bit clueless about how to test it before buying the mini.
Thanks to this very informative series on YT (How to: XRGB-mini), I found out it does all I need for each retro system I own (it even allows to get rid of the colored borders you get with plenty of Mega Drive games, which is fantastic).
The only thing I'd like to figure out, is how the Framemeister renders all those effects you can only get right on a CRT, such as flickering shadows - i.e. those commonly seen in 2D fighting games - and interlaced transparencies (once again, vastly used in SNK/CAPCOM games). I've been told it depends on how the TV actually handles 240p signals, and both my Panasonic Viera - with the Saturn connected straight to their RGB scart socket - fail to display those effects correctly (flickering shadows appear like still scanlined shapes, as well as the fake transparencies, which now just flash intermittently at a lower frequency).
I also have an Asus monitor, but since it only has HDMI/DVI connections, I'm a bit clueless about how to test it before buying the mini.
geniusbits
Member
Works fine for me on Safari for iphone
Holy crap. Thanks for posting that link. The Screen_Set video showed me how to fix the screwed up aspect ratio on Final Fantasy XII (and, I'm guessing, other PS2 games). I always wondered why it looked so squished. Setting it to Normal2 should fix it. Can't wait to try it out this weekend.
I'm sure that's common knowledge to people who really know their retro systems and XRGB settings, but it was news to me.
Same for me, until another gaffer posted the link a while ago. Glad it helped! ^_-
NormalFish
Banned
Should try out FBX's profiles, as well. They set the zoom so that everything is proper aspect ratio and such. Download at the bottom of THIS page.
They take a bit of tweaking since every TV/game is different, but the zoom settings should be perfect for pretty much everything.
Shin Johnpv
Member
I posted it about a month ago, it should really go in the OP for this thread. I also put up some of the profiles I made from his how to XRGB series.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8c8o1v4griubyoz/XRGBProfiles.rar?dl=0
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