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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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Every crt I've ever experienced has had terrible sound. My new Panasonic has terrible lq noise and the buzzing is ridiculous when a white display is shown.
Obviously there is no buzzing sound or noise at all when the TV is muted and sound is put through external speakers or headphones.
Laser Wolf
Neo Member
I found that post, but the screenshots appear to be long gone. Do you remember the outcome of vWii at 1080p vs Wii + Framemeister?
vWii looks sharper because of the native HDMI output and FM's crappy handling of 480p and the original Wii's weaker output make the Wii + FM combo lose most of the advantage. then you also factor in that the FM's lag is slightly more than the lag you'd get from vWii.
one thing is that vWii has some weird effect with some colors around the edges but some posters have said they don't get that effect. we still haven't found out what was the cause of that.
Actually the chroma shift artifact was present in every sample of Wii, vWii, and GameCube. It's just depending on certain conditions, it would be more or less visible to your eye variably between each console during gameplay. Sheepy called it on being a chroma sub sampling fault.
geniusbits
Member
The thing is, if she permanently raised her prices she would bring in competition. There are people out there that could make cables just as nice or nicer than her that, if they found out they could get >$50 per cable, would go ahead and do that. It's hard to think about unseen, unrealized resources out there, but I've argued the same thing has happened with pro monitors. The high prices people decry are in some ways the REASON that the monitors on the market now are there, if some studios thought they could only get $50 for their monitors they might just recycle them.
NormalFish
Banned
Does anyone know how she goes about making her cables? Does she buy cable and connectors seperately or just start with scart to scart?
Laser Wolf
Neo Member
Thanks for the assistance. If nothing else, then that answers the question about whether or not it's worth it to buy a Wii solely for Wii games. Doesn't appear to be the case.
Beer Monkey
Member
The Wii U video output scales/processes ALL vWii games, period, and there's no such thing as 1:1 (or 1:2 or 2:2 or any other integer scaling) pixel mapping of vWii games including Virtual Console. It's trash if you are looking for fidelity. Don't use it, period. You can get "scan lines" on a Framemeister, but it (unless they change their software at Nintendo, which they will never do at this point) cannot provide accurate output as if you were playing on a real Wii.
Regarding our favorite eBay seller, she typically lists new inventory around 6am on Mondays and you can get whatever you want at a fair price if you know that.
I think you've gotten into a debate with someone else? I stated something true of all the consoles. Furthermore I don't personally use or advocate the use of WiiU scaling.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Aww really? I've always thought Wii U scaling looked so nice. It looks nicer than my Wii with Framemeister or Panasonic plasma TV scaler...
Beer Monkey
Member
It isn't bad scaling per se, but it screws up processing on scalers because every nth scanline will be averaged.
Never mind, I'm just going to start shutting up about it.
You're fine. I mean, I don't particularly like any external scaling to 1080p and the Wii's fuzzy image on my plasma, but I'm not going to lord it over people and tell them what they should or shouldn't do. Maybe you also don't like the fuzzy image of a real Wii and the internal scaler in your display sucks ass. So I can see a scenario where you'd prefer the scaling on WiiU.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I appreciate the rigorous investigation and info spread, even if the poster you quoted was seemingly un-engaged in that particular debate.
So that means Wii U is okay to play on, but you wouldn't feed it into another scaler?
Beer Monkey
Member
Yeah. I've experimented with every possible setting (make sure and check the overscan settings, of which there are around 10), and no matter what you do, there's scanline averaging ocurring.
Message me offline, I'm just tired of arguing about it (nobody will post pics of a checkerboard pattern after the Framemeister scales it, and I've already sent my FM back).
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Yeah, Wii on Wii U looks crisp and bright to me... unlike the too-soft look of a Wii scaled by my plasma or the too-sharp look of Wii through XRGB mini. (and both have dull colour imo... probably the direct HDMI advantage of Wii U there)
But by all means, I appreciate the information.
the "quality" i was talking about was the signal itself. not the scaling.
remember how the GameCube's Component output is better quality than Wii's Component? that's what i was referring when i said the Wii U vWii had better quality since the HDMI output is above even GC component. i remember getting better looking F-Zero GX clips out of vWii thanks to this.
if we go the scaling route, the FM actually beats it in that area. when you use Smartx2, it does look better than what the Wii U produces as far as scaling goes since the artifacts from uneven scaling aren't there.
it's not a clear win for either side which makes things tricky since you have to pick your poison basically. do you want good scaling, good signal or low lag? it's hard to say because all 3 things throw you off depending on what you have.
me, personally, i decided to give up FM's good scaling for lower input lag since i found out my TV processed 480p pretty fast and is one frame faster than the FM.
remember how the GameCube's Component output is better quality than Wii's Component? that's what i was referring when i said the Wii U vWii had better quality since the HDMI output is above even GC component. i remember getting better looking F-Zero GX clips out of vWii thanks to this.
if we go the scaling route, the FM actually beats it in that area. when you use Smartx2, it does look better than what the Wii U produces as far as scaling goes since the artifacts from uneven scaling aren't there.
it's not a clear win for either side which makes things tricky since you have to pick your poison basically. do you want good scaling, good signal or low lag? it's hard to say because all 3 things throw you off depending on what you have.
me, personally, i decided to give up FM's good scaling for lower input lag since i found out my TV processed 480p pretty fast and is one frame faster than the FM.
IMO, Wii picture is too soft. Meanwhile the WiiU is too sharp when upscaling to 1080. It develops artifacts on the edges of objects. Lots of crawling that pronounces aliasing. Luckily, I think my TV's internal scaler is juuuust right. No edge artifacts, and with WiiU @480p, no fuzzy signal. Simple. Plus, I'm not concerned with 240p material on WiiU. So if that scales properly or not is no concequence to me.
Beer Monkey
Member
The thing is, the Wii U, if designed by people who cared, would simply line-double 240p to 480p.
Instead it averages ever dozen lines or so and never does true doubling.
Which means you can't reclaim the original 240p image with scanline processing. It's impossible.
so, not even setting it to 480i or 480p output with component let it replicate what the regular Wii does? that sucks.
For 240. Or rather it might be more accurate to say what the Wii doesn't do for 240p. Iirc the Wii is capable of native 240p.
Link_enfant
Member
I'm having some weird trouble with RBG video output on retro consoles right now.
Well, currently I don't have a CRT so I just use my Samsung HDTV for everything.
But it seems there are issues with either the TV or its scart RGB plug.
Whenever I play the Dreamcast (PAL, original RGB cable) or the Super Famicom (using GameCube's PAL RGB cable, which is just perfect on CRT), the whites and brightness seem to be crushed. Just as if I increased the brightness setting too high and other settings randomly.
The snow village in Secret of Mana is a great example: I almost can't see anything, the trees' borders aren't visible, colors a bit over saturated, etc.
Of course I tried to change the settings accordingly (those problems occur with the default settings), but I just can't get the image to look right, whether I change the contrast or brightness.
Using a composite cable or the other scart plug resolves the issue, but of course the image quality drops and look really bad in the end.
I've tried running Shenmue on Dreamcast and I noticed the same issue at the very beginning, the title screen was way too bright.
Also, many years ago I bought an official japanese Super Famicom RGB cable, but could never get it to work for some reason. No image on CRT, and weird red moving waves on HDTV. But I guess that's a compability issue since it's supposed to be plugged into a japanese TV.
I haven't tried to play GameCube on this TV yet, but it don't really mind for this console as I only use Nintendont on my Wii now.
On my previous HDTV (also Samsung) I don't remember having this problem, at least for GC which I played for some time because of PSO and online features.
Any idea on what's causing this?
Well, currently I don't have a CRT so I just use my Samsung HDTV for everything.
But it seems there are issues with either the TV or its scart RGB plug.
Whenever I play the Dreamcast (PAL, original RGB cable) or the Super Famicom (using GameCube's PAL RGB cable, which is just perfect on CRT), the whites and brightness seem to be crushed. Just as if I increased the brightness setting too high and other settings randomly.
The snow village in Secret of Mana is a great example: I almost can't see anything, the trees' borders aren't visible, colors a bit over saturated, etc.
Of course I tried to change the settings accordingly (those problems occur with the default settings), but I just can't get the image to look right, whether I change the contrast or brightness.
Using a composite cable or the other scart plug resolves the issue, but of course the image quality drops and look really bad in the end.
I've tried running Shenmue on Dreamcast and I noticed the same issue at the very beginning, the title screen was way too bright.
Also, many years ago I bought an official japanese Super Famicom RGB cable, but could never get it to work for some reason. No image on CRT, and weird red moving waves on HDTV. But I guess that's a compability issue since it's supposed to be plugged into a japanese TV.
I haven't tried to play GameCube on this TV yet, but it don't really mind for this console as I only use Nintendont on my Wii now.
On my previous HDTV (also Samsung) I don't remember having this problem, at least for GC which I played for some time because of PSO and online features.
Any idea on what's causing this?
heh. no wonder the thing didn't switch modes when i checked 240p in the test suite. i thought it was weird but never asked here why it was like that.
IrishNinja
Member
ive seen it tons of times, and i literally don't get it. people in the final minutes will open bid shit way over what even current (CIB) BIN's are at, because they wanted that copy - it's irrational, and yeah, i stay far from it.
Yeh it's wired for JP21, not RGB SCART, so the pins don't match up. I believe it's not even recommended to try it because of voltage pins being different.
Yeah, though 240p is within the range of specs for HDMI, it's not widely employed by manufacturers. Then one might wonder why Nintendo didn't allow for 240p via component... But I'm not inside Nintendo's head. It sucks for people who are big on Virtual console classic releases, but from the complaint threads I've read about WiiU VC games... Scaling is just half the problem. It seem with some games Nintendo couldnt even bother to account for grayscale differences form old RGB games now on a RGB limited console.
The chroma shift issue that I had and that Mado still has is really severe, I've only seen one other person mention it.
My Wii U was repaired and I noticed that when I returned to vWii it had gone, I tested it on all the display's I first noticed it on using the same hdmi cable and it was now comparable to a Wii. You didn't even have to get close to see the issue, it was just there, like strong chromatic aberration.
My Wii U was handed in for repair due to a stuck firmware issue but the letter mentioned hardware parts had been changed. I can only assume it was a rare hardware fault but that's not exactly concrete evidence.
somehow, none of this surprises me coming from Nintendo.
after seeing the kind of things they've done to VC on current gen and what they still do in PAL land, whoever is in charge of most things related to BC is pretty inept or is doing the smallest humanly possible effort to make BC work.
it's so funny how homebrew has to fix a lot of Nintendo's problems nowadays. at this rate, the only fix to vWii is gonna come from homebrew (if it's possible at all..)
you've even got things like Nintendont with all sorts of add-ins to make GC games usable on the current Wii U system with as many enabled fearures as possible. GC VC using a Nintendont-style wrapper would have let them have it and make more money in addition to the others. requiring a GC Smash adapter is not even an excuse anymore since they sell Wii games that require the remote and nunchuck and those don't come with the Wii U either.
in a way they're giving people reasons to not upgrade and stick with the original consoles, which is funny since it's actually damaging their own current sales.
i mean, imagine if BC was perfect and if the re-releases played better than the old consoles in every way. people would be more willing to double dip on VC. i can imagine how much people they've turned away with their crappy BC solutions. i'm almost in that camp now since i've stopped buying Wii U VC releases due to all this crap we've seen.
That's the original buyer trying to drive up prices for his next auction.
Edit: I meant the seller* (brain farted)
NormalFish
Banned
Nah, unless they're using a bunch of accounts, and buying it themselves, I've seen people have weird bid wars in to unreasonable territory.
Beer Monkey
Member
It cannot replicate what the regular Wii does at 480i/p component. It adds a big of lag and some image scaling/smoothing.
I believe we have similar TVs: Panasonic ST50 plasma TVs. I'm on a Wii kick lately. So the best PQ for Wii games on Wii U is to set the console on 480p and let the TV handle upscaling to 1080p?
I have the ST60, but yeah it's a night and day difference.
geniusbits
Member
I've been trying to figure out how to get the parts. My friend and I were talking about making a SCART switcher, he works at a place where we could print out boards, but I have zero idea of where to buy bulk parts.
Post results about it as well.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
So, having recently given another shot to N64 games on N64 hardware, I've decided rather like the softness of N64 output. It looked really smooth to me in the late 90s on a CRT, still looks nice through my framemeister, and you know... it's just a characteristic of the systen. It's a defining look of the system and when it's missing it just kinda seems wrong.
pretty neat things possible with the gameshark.
I think it's a happy balance with the GS. It reveals more detail without things turning into messy clumps of pixels.
The messy pixels look can be entirely mitigated by playing on a CRT or enabling the nice scanline filter in the Ultra HDMI mod.
I don't have direct capture stuff but I'll see what I can do.
I wanna see what this disabled AA + deblur does on HDMI N64 on my plasma. And also what disabled AA does on RGB N64 on my sharper CRTs which currently looks so blurry and unpleasant that I've been playing on the S-video JVC monitor instead.
I don't have direct capture stuff but I'll see what I can do.
I wanna see what this disabled AA + deblur does on HDMI N64 on my plasma. And also what disabled AA does on RGB N64 on my sharper CRTs which currently looks so blurry and unpleasant that I've been playing on the S-video JVC monitor instead.
I understand what you mean by this.
NormalFish
Banned
I was under the impression that the gameshark code method was essentially trial and error, and wasn't necessarily removing the right effects in all games. Has a more universal approach been found using the unit?
If I had an everdrive or gameshark I would do direct captures of this!
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