Shin Johnpv
Member
If you have room I'd like to be on that list as well!
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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If you have room I'd like to be on that list as well!
Shin Johnpv
Member
What SNES ones what went for 100+?
Why so angry about composite? Indeed, it's weak by today's standard, but....
Given all the constrains it has to obey, composite is optimal like no other.
(a real engineering feat, technological-wise)
It's a great technological feat that should have never arrived into our homes. RF was needed for aerial TV, and a such needed a Composite signal to merge to the audio signal. But when you are close enough to the source that you can use cables, there is no reason at all to encode everything into a single wire instead of using several wires to carry everything you need. Even then, the separations are arbitrary: why give stereo audio their own cables, but keep luma and chroma packed together in a single wire? I could, maybe, understand if we were to go from RF to S-Video, but Composite has never been good for the end user.
speedlolita
Member
Calling composite composhit is our privilege as Europeans having access to RGB easily. 
Actually the chip can do both, it just needs to be told what to output via one of its pin. Which is why I'm confused by the need of an oscillator mod, the PAL or NTSC colour encoding should be respected regardless of the actual sync freq. This chip should be able to output PAL50, PAL60, NTSC60, NTSC50. The Megadrive itself as the circuitry to compute at both 50Hz and 60Hz.
datasheet for one of several encoder chips that came with the Megadrive:
http://reflexd.com/sites/default/files/BookFiles/Fujitsu_MB3514.pdf
A guy who did a mod, with a video to show it off (his schematics are offline unfortunately)
http://assemblergames.com/l/threads...60hz-mod-but-with-true-ntsc-pal-output.47326/
I don't quite know how the Megadrive work in regards to PAL/NTSC encoding, but I suspect the circuit switches to NTSC when the 60Hz jumper is on, and this guy has a PAL-only TV so needs an additional mod to keep it PAL.
The crystal oscillators in PAL and NTSC machines are different, which result in a tiny difference in vsync frequency: 60Hz Euro consoles output 59.94Hz, US consoles output 59.97Hz. It makes no difference to a tube, but the Framemeister can be fussy about it, giving a slightly stuttering scrolling. I believe it's the only reason to do a crystal mode.
socksfelloff
Member
I recently got my hands on a BC ps3 with cfw and I've been playing around to see which I like better.
Ps3 via component@480p - vga converter on a high end CRT computer monitor looks incredible. I don't like ps2 on a modern flat-screen. The scan lines @480 are a little too thin for ps1 stuff though but ps2 and psp look great. I prefer my PVM for the 240p stuff.
The ps2 hd collections also look fantastic this way
NTSC/composite video was a great invention from the Americans, in my book.
You should dive more into electronics. There is always a reason behind.
Cost.
For example;
RGB needs more HQ bandwidth amplifiers and signal paths. That's not for free.
Composite was very cost effective. RGB system were more expensive in total.
To transmit a higher quality/undistorted baseband audio signal.
Ah ok. Forgot the chip does both.
Perhaps for the frequency-divider-chain to generate sub-multiples thereof.
I'm sorry you lived through that age.Calling composite composhit is our privilege as Europeans having access to RGB easily.
Beer Monkey
Member
Calling composite composhit is our privilege as Europeans having access to RGB easily.
That karma for getting screwed with 50hz bullshit.
But S-Video and Component are both NTSC encoded, they carry the same signal with the same limitations / advantages as Composite, without all the interferences and overlap that comes with carrying everything in a single cable. There is no cost advantage in preferring Composite over these two. Most chips that output an encoded signal have at least chroma and luma on separate pins, sometimes even YUV on three pins, allowing for great modding on our side.
The engineers were most certainly audiophile, as they decided that audio was worth keeping separate to prevent interferences, yet didn't think the same would be useful for the different components of CVBS. Yet I'm sure comb filters were already a thing in the 50s.
The engineers were most certainly audiophile, as they decided that audio was worth keeping separate to prevent interferences, yet didn't think the same would be useful for the different components of CVBS. Yet I'm sure comb filters were already a thing in the 50s.
Barrel Cannon
Member
So thoughts on my PVM
Sega Saturn - Looks amazing in S-Video, this is probably the only console I want to go the RGB(and DC when I get one) because of all the fighters/shooters I intend to play on it.
N64/SNES/GC-I'm so happy using S-Video on my PVM for N64/SNES/GC that I think I probably won't find enough marginal utility from upgrading to RGB solutions(especially the GC which won't probably have a good affordable solution at least for the next year until prices drop on that new custom cable)
XBOX -I find using my XBOX on it using component has breathed new life into the console for me. After fine-tuning the settings with the knobs on the front(which was easy I might add) I find a lot of games looking a lot better than I remember, especially for a lot of darker titles where good blacks matter so much. I never owned a high end CRT.....didn't know what I was missing. I don't mind losing out on 480P TBH for all the other gains
PS2/NES -I've yet to test my NES/PS2 using composite but have low hopes for those because of the composite.
Xbox360 -I've yet to test 360 using component but don't know if I will find much use out of it cause most games were designed with ~500-720 horizontal lines of resolution and trying to cram that in will probably result in a significant amount of lost detail that would be hard to justify IMO
Might I ask what the downside to audio breakout cables is? Also I just realized I never checked if my PVM has a speaker or not... lol.
Sega Saturn - Looks amazing in S-Video, this is probably the only console I want to go the RGB(and DC when I get one) because of all the fighters/shooters I intend to play on it.
N64/SNES/GC-I'm so happy using S-Video on my PVM for N64/SNES/GC that I think I probably won't find enough marginal utility from upgrading to RGB solutions(especially the GC which won't probably have a good affordable solution at least for the next year until prices drop on that new custom cable)
XBOX -I find using my XBOX on it using component has breathed new life into the console for me. After fine-tuning the settings with the knobs on the front(which was easy I might add) I find a lot of games looking a lot better than I remember, especially for a lot of darker titles where good blacks matter so much. I never owned a high end CRT.....didn't know what I was missing. I don't mind losing out on 480P TBH for all the other gains
PS2/NES -I've yet to test my NES/PS2 using composite but have low hopes for those because of the composite.
Xbox360 -I've yet to test 360 using component but don't know if I will find much use out of it cause most games were designed with ~500-720 horizontal lines of resolution and trying to cram that in will probably result in a significant amount of lost detail that would be hard to justify IMO
Might I ask what the downside to audio breakout cables is? Also I just realized I never checked if my PVM has a speaker or not... lol.
Each pin you add makes a system much more expensive.
Each wire you add makes a system much more expensive.
Each (video) wire needs an amplifier.
Each (video) trace needs to be proper shielded / routed etc.
It really adds up. Edit: Esp. in the earlier days. But holds even today.
If you include more stuff, sure, you can build better video.
I think they were costphile. xD
Without the sound carrier, you can build a cheaper output amplifier.
Nope. Delay lines were very difficult to build and difficult to time right.
"PAL-D" TVs came around 1964, they had an analog (D)elay line for combing.
NormalFish
Banned
there isn't really a downside per se, but it greatly complicates your cable set up if you're not pushing all audio somewhere else.
Why deinterlace at all?
I like PS2 games on og PS2 hardware connected to the PVM at 480i through SCART or component. Interlaced images can be gorgeous on a display that is designed for them.
Plus it's entirely lag free.
I'll add you, but I'll have to go back through the list and parts before I can say there's enough there to make one for you. I'll be in touch later!
Retro_console_accessories when she set it to auction instead of buy now a few times. The thirst for her cables is real, lol.
SNES is RGB-ready, just get the required scart cable. PS2 has both RGB and Component, very cheap cable for the latter from places like Amazon. No reason to pass up on either of these and settle on S-Video.
No breakout in your console cables means all audio routed into one place... your scart switch for example, which can then output audio to your receiver, external speakers, etc. Audio breakout at the console level is needlessly messy.
SmellyHoundRedux
Banned
I don't know if this is the right place, but does anyone want an 32 in. SD TV, with some minor scratches on the screen? The base is broken but still works. I used it for all my old games, and looks pretty good for SNES/genesis games. I live in southern MA, if anyone is interested, you just got to help me get it down 2.5 flights of stairs and you can have it.
Shin Johnpv
Member
I...I don't understand how scart cables are so expensive over in america.
I just don't get it. Can't you guys like, order from the UK? We have shitloads of RGB cables on ebay for each console for a few quid each. Or is it specifically ones built for c-sync and the like? Because even then, in most cases it's not a dealbreaker.
I just don't get it. Can't you guys like, order from the UK? We have shitloads of RGB cables on ebay for each console for a few quid each. Or is it specifically ones built for c-sync and the like? Because even then, in most cases it's not a dealbreaker.
Indeed! IMO, I think PS3's playback of PS1 and PS2 games has been seriously misrepresented and underestimated, strictly speaking of raw picture quality. Latency can still be an issue.
I hope Vespa doesn't mind if I cross post my reply from the Xbox thread, but it's highly relevant in this thread too:
All component standard is sub sampled. That's broadcast standard. There's no such thing as analog video output component connection (YPbPr) that isn't sub sampled. The standard being 4:2:2, 16-235
That being said the Xbox has very nice component picture. It's picture quality looks as good as any modern system over component. It has the edge over PS2 and GameCube. Just take a look at the picture I posted above on this same page... It doesn't suffer from dithering or banding like those systems. It was the only console of that generation with a 32bit color bit depth! The other consoles had a maximum of 24bit color, so that's why you'd see more banding in their picture. In fact GameCube games were often 16bit color depth. And the truth about the GameCube is that it's RGB is obtained by up sampling the analog component signal, because the GC and Wii are hardware limited to YUV standard.
Component and VGA have the same luxury of bypassing the anti flickering filter built into the Xbox's video encoder. That's a very good thing indeed as most people have the false impression that Xbox's picture quality sucks... They just haven't seen the light about the unfiltered component output. The one thing I'm unclear about however is whether RGBHV is up sampled from the sub sampled component signal. Internally digital component can technically be lossless color space inside the frame buffer (4:4:4, YCbCr, no sub sampling). That would be the best case for the RGBHV, but like I said, I'm not sure if that is the case.
Edit: Actually the Dreamcast had several color modes, including 32bit color. How could I forget about my precious?
Post Edit: the preceding comments only apply to 31+ KHz component signals. 480i Xbox applies an ugly flicker filter, though it has been brought to my attention that there are Homebrew apps that can turn the filter down.
No we can't, unfortunately. North American SCART cables have to be made specifically to work with NTSC consoles, because NTSC Scart never really had a standard over here.
Beer Monkey
Member
Eh, I have a cheapo Saturn SCART (not JP21) cable that I imported around 1997 that works fine on my original NTSC US Saturn and my broadcast monitor. It's got CSYNC even.
I still ended up ordering one from retro_console_accessories and her build quality is much better.
NormalFish
Banned
yeah, I think the biggest reason people order nice SCART cables is because -- what for it -- they want nice SCART cables.
It's a quality thing, not a necessity.
It's a quality thing, not a necessity.
socksfelloff
Member
That's my main setup exactly. Im always open to trying new things though that's why I've been playing around with the ps3.
Beer Monkey
Member
There are definitely differences in pinouts for some consoles/revisions between the US and EU. It's going to depend on the specifics. Easier for her to just say that these are for US across the board than try to deal with the exceptions if people tried to start using them with PAL consoles.
sixteen-bit
Member
Yeah I think this is the case for Saturn but I'm not 100% sure
I hate interlacing, in fact the PS2 is the main console I have to deinterlace to even get 60 FPS out of it and better image quality as well. That's why I tend to go for Gamecube and Xbox multiplats over it.
For some consoles only. SEGA Saturn and the SNES have different pinout between the European consoles and the NTSC consoles, for no reason. But most other consoles have the same video output and can use cables from wherever.
She is one of the only US seller of Scart cables. Buying her cables is less expensive than importing one from the old continent.
And also she just makes good cables. Very few people make Scart cables for consoles with coax wires, most of what's out is cheap unshielded cabling that catches interferences from everywhere.
Uh...I've exclusively owned NTSC consoles and every single one works fine with UK SCART cables apart from the SNES which requires a resistor for the PAL console iirc.
What she is saying sounds like bullshit.
Beer Monkey
Member
Interestingly enough I just found this for the Saturn.
Apparently how much this affects the image (if using a EU SCART cable on a US console) depends on the monitor, and some will not display the image (while mine does). I did notice a very slight "wiggling" from side to side of some scanlines using the cheap EU cable, I assumed it was from the cheapness of the cable.
EDIT: Now I'm guessing that my cheap EU SCART cable for Saturn is using composite for sync.
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4236.0
Either way, the eBay cables are nice and most mass market SCART cables are cheap and shoddy in my experience. YMMV.
Apparently how much this affects the image (if using a EU SCART cable on a US console) depends on the monitor, and some will not display the image (while mine does). I did notice a very slight "wiggling" from side to side of some scanlines using the cheap EU cable, I assumed it was from the cheapness of the cable.
EDIT: Now I'm guessing that my cheap EU SCART cable for Saturn is using composite for sync.
http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4236.0
Either way, the eBay cables are nice and most mass market SCART cables are cheap and shoddy in my experience. YMMV.
It really depends on how you cable is made. You can make cables work in all regions by not using pin1 on saturn, and using pin8 or 9 for your sync. Connecting pin1 through a small capacitor to Scart pin 8 make a fully functional euro cable that will also work on a US console, but the US console won't switch the TV on / switch to the correct aspect ratio, unlike a European console.
Beer Monkey
Member
Yeah, I just realized that my cheap EU cable is probably using composite or luma for sync. Which explains the very, very slight instability I have noticed on some scanlines with that cable. My cable from retro is surely using pin 1. Both are workable, the latter is superior and is a much better constructed cable anyway.
See the above quoted post. It's not bullshit. Thanks for clarifying, Beer.
Beer Monkey
Member
Well, there are definitely consoles where an EU user could buy her SCART cables and have them work perfectly because there would be no difference. Genesis/Megadrive, PS1, surely some others.
On the other hand, if somebody bought her USA Saturn SCART cable and plugged it into an EU monitor with an actual SCART input, it would feed 9v DC into the sync pin, and that could fry the input on the monitor!
So the safe thing is for her to tell people that her cables are for US consoles only.
On the other hand, if somebody bought her USA Saturn SCART cable and plugged it into an EU monitor with an actual SCART input, it would feed 9v DC into the sync pin, and that could fry the input on the monitor!
So the safe thing is for her to tell people that her cables are for US consoles only.
IrishNinja
Member
yes, we can order from places of varying quality from the UK, but retro:
1) is domestic (same state as me too!)
2) is known for quality
3) takes custom orders
4) makes things easier on many by labeling things like THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED FOR XRGB etc, mind you many of us here aren't familiar with the tech and there's horror stories of people mixing JP/EU scarts & blowing out equipment
yeah, was said but she left at least one pair to open bidding rather than buy it now, and shit got ridiculous.
might step on some toes here, but i'm gonna be honest; part of me thinks she should jack up her prices a bit. it's plainly obvious there's tons of demand, her feedback/quality of work is high, and she has what looks like a near-monopoly in this region. if every other reseller & shmuck is gonna inflate the bubble, part of me thinks someone who's actually providing an in-demand service should feel free to take suckers for a ride from time to time, too.
1) is domestic (same state as me too!)
2) is known for quality
3) takes custom orders
4) makes things easier on many by labeling things like THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED FOR XRGB etc, mind you many of us here aren't familiar with the tech and there's horror stories of people mixing JP/EU scarts & blowing out equipment
yeah, was said but she left at least one pair to open bidding rather than buy it now, and shit got ridiculous.
might step on some toes here, but i'm gonna be honest; part of me thinks she should jack up her prices a bit. it's plainly obvious there's tons of demand, her feedback/quality of work is high, and she has what looks like a near-monopoly in this region. if every other reseller & shmuck is gonna inflate the bubble, part of me thinks someone who's actually providing an in-demand service should feel free to take suckers for a ride from time to time, too.
yes, i am comfortably saying this as someone who currently has all the cables he needs, haha
Beer Monkey
Member
Hm, I should really buy every cable I will eventually need right now. Hadn't really thought about not knowing what the future may hold.
protomouse
Member
Just picked up an RGB-modded French NUS-001 N64 unit off eBay for around 60 quid + shipping. Seller recommended using a SNES SCART cable instead of a GameCube one, citing brightness issues with the latter. I have my SNES cable from RetroGamingCables on hand, so hopefully that'll produce good results. I admit I'm not up to speed on cabling, but from what I can tell the difference (roughly speaking) is that SNES cables use resistors while GC cables use capacitors.
NormalFish
Banned
the SNES is the only console I know for certain has meaningful differences between NTSC and PAL cables.
Beer Monkey
Member
Well, there's the Saturn example I gave. Do NOT use the NTSC SCART cable with a PAL console or you'll be pumping 9V DC into the sync pin. You can use the PAL cable with an NTSC console though (with no *true* CSYNC unless it's a fancy cable with a stripper circuit).
Barrel Cannon
Member
So if I'm understanding this correctly if I'm displaying in 480i i will still get this flicker filter even with component cables
?SNES: I just feel like S-Video is so beautiful over composite that anything else would just be way to minor to truly justify for myself. But down the line if I have the excess cash I will plop down for one.
PS2: You are right on this, I should just go out on kijiji and find one on the cheap
@breakout cables I see what you guys all mean now. I didn't really think about that factor because I was just kind of testing everything one by one but the end goal would be to have everything plugged in and it would complicate the wire setup quite a bit and make it a whole lot messier. Having BNC/Audio from a SCART switch that has all the connectors is probably the cleanest thing possible to do.
Shin Johnpv
Member
There's a small handful of differences, like NTSC SNES cables need capacitors in the cable if I remember right. That said though both retro_gaming_accessories, and retrogamingcables.uk offer NTSC and PAL versions of those cables, and the small few others that have a difference. Though most don't.
Yes.So if I'm understanding this correctly if I'm displaying in 480i i will still get this flicker filter even with component cables
NormalFish
Banned
yeah, I missed your post. Same deal, though.
So if I'm understanding this correctly if I'm displaying in 480i i will still get this flicker filter even with component cables
Yes, though there are ways to minimize it by soft modding the box. If you are interested in doing so feel free to come over to the Xbox appreciation thread. I just recently soft moded my Xbox and I can provide help with exploitable memory hacks.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Retrogamingcables.UK does the last one as well, I do believe they also take custom orders and their quality is good. They're just not domestic.
There are a few other options out there, maybe not domestic. I have cables from her and retrogamingcables.uk and for me they've been equal in quality and the end signal. I think if she jacked up her prices she's leaving the door open for someone like retrogamingcables.uk to take a lot of business. Or for someone domestic to decided to compete with her. It could bite her in the ass.
Beer Monkey
Member
You could run an OG XBOX through an Extron unit to get 240p, though honestly I can't think of much outside of Street Fighter Anniversary or the Metal Slug titles that I'd want to do that with.
480p is the way to go for OG Xbox in general.
480p is the way to go for OG Xbox in general.
I wish there was Homebrew to force 240p like the GameCube.
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