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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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Question for the smart, cool dudes in this thread. I need to connect a device with SD VGA output (240p) to an xRGB Mini Framemeister. What's the best way to make that connection, given that the Framemeister lacks a VGA input port?

Something like this that connects VGA RGB pins to RGB on SCART, + handles converting hsync/vsync to csync. I think in the case of that cable you'd be missing audio on the scart cable so you could go for something more expensive if that's a concern.

Are you running JP-21? If so that's a bit more annoying...
 

ToastyFrog

Inexplicable Treasure Hate
Thanks. Audio shouldn't be a problem since I can always feed it through the front jacks on the Framemeister. And I can spring for a Euro SCART-to-mini-DIN dongle. I've come this far...
 

kjacobson

Neo Member
So I apologize as this is (probably) a noob Framemeister question, and I recently picked up an XRGB-mini -- and maybe I'm using it in ways they didn't intend.

So I've got a variety of consoles hooked up with different input methods:

SNES - SCART
Saturn - S-Video
Raspberry Pi/RetroPie - HDMI 1
Wii U - HDMI 2

Problem is, it seems that the settings change for each input, but I'd like to find a way to save it so the settings are locked to each input setting.

For example, I want my Wii U to appear in 1080p because it looks best in 1080, and same with the RetroPie. But for SNES and Saturn, I'd like to set those input methods to use 720p and have Scanlines turned on, with a variety of other settings.

How can I make it so these settings stick and are independent with each input? It seems like I've gotten it to at least be somewhat different before, but I don't know how. I'm running the latest firmware 2.03a, and my unit shipped with 2.02 (I just updated it to be sure - but it didn't seem to make any difference).

Appreciate it!
 

Madao

Member
Not all 1-Chip SNES' are equal. The SNES Mini with a very simple RGB mod will give you the sharpest picture you can get out of an SNES. A non-mini with a revision 3 1-Chip will give you a very close picture to a modded mini. Though there is no way to tell for sure if a non-mini has a 1-Chip or which revision it is without opening it up.

ah i see. so it is mostly a matter of getting RGB out of the machine without modding it.

the popularity of the 1-chip was throwing me off since it seemed a lot of people were searching it out vs going with a mini.

i invested in a RGB modded mini after selling my non-1chip units since they were old
 

Mega

Banned
Here's the Ultra HDMI with the new firmware that allows for simultaneous scanlines and Integer scaling. These images also have de-blur option and anti-AA patch enabled for optimal sharpness. Althougj blurrier, some games are better off without the anti-AA patch because of all the dithering. I can post some images without it on if anyone wants to see.

Hybrid scanlines
uJ7UJwJ.png


Simple scanlines
G6Vozkm.png


h5wzFKs.png


BwflYwI.png


Hybrid scanlines
uA2lFX1.png


Simple scanlines
VTKPZ6R.png
 

Conezays

Member
Here's the Ultra HDMI with the new firmware that allows for simultaneous scanlines and Integer scaling. These images also have de-blur option and anti-AA patch enabled for optimal sharpness. Althougj blurrier, some games are better off without the anti-AA patch because of all the dithering. I can post some images without it on if anyone wants to see.

Looks great! Loved Mischief Makers.
 
Here's the Ultra HDMI with the new firmware that allows for simultaneous scanlines and Integer scaling. These images also have de-blur option and anti-AA patch enabled for optimal sharpness. Althougj blurrier, some games are better off without the anti-AA patch because of all the dithering. I can post some images without it on if anyone wants to see.

Wow, first time I've seen N64 look that vibrant. Not a fan of that system aside from a few titles, but that looks quite good.
 

televator

Member
Here's the Ultra HDMI with the new firmware that allows for simultaneous scanlines and Integer scaling. These images also have de-blur option and anti-AA patch enabled for optimal sharpness. Althougj blurrier, some games are better off without the anti-AA patch because of all the dithering. I can post some images without it on if anyone wants to see.

God, I need that FPGA N64 today and not 10 years later.
 

anaron

Member
I have no idea if it actually affects video quality can anyone recommend a good composite+ S-video switch for CRT gaming?
 

Lynd7

Member
Here's the Ultra HDMI with the new firmware that allows for simultaneous scanlines and Integer scaling. These images also have de-blur option and anti-AA patch enabled for optimal sharpness. Althougj blurrier, some games are better off without the anti-AA patch because of all the dithering. I can post some images without it on if anyone wants to see.

New firmware? When was it released and is it on the retroactive site?
 

Vespa

Member
Great pics, Mega! Hybrid scanlines seem to let the brights bleed over, looks a little odd in pics maybe looks better in motion? It's nice that it's not too dark.
 

Mega

Banned
New firmware? When was it released and is it on the retroactive site?

Marshall, the guy behind the mod, sent it to me via email. He was beta testing new scanlines+integer firmware with some people. I tried a couple versions after asking for a progress update (I've been in touch about this on/off for a few months as it was the most glaring omission from the menus). The last version sent is just about ready as a final release according to him.
 

rou021

Member
I'm using a Sony BVM-1915 for almost 2 years and recently I found out that it's recommended to use BNC terminators for connectors that are not used.

Then, I bought a few BNC terminators to use with the loop-through outputs - since I'm using only one device connected to the monitor. To my surprise, the picture became very dark and dim. It seems the contrast is way too low.

So, using BNC terminators produces a picture with a VERY low contrast. To correct this problem, I need to increase my contrast from 50% (without BNC terminators) to almost 100% (with BNC terminators).

Curiously, I have a small CRT PC monitor with a default contrast setting of 100%. I also have a Sony Wega consumer TV which the "normal" settings is using the contrast at 80% and the "brilliant" and "sports" settings use the contrast at 100%. Now it seems a bit odd that my BVM is able to produce high contrast using only 50% (without the BNC connector).

What's going on? Should I use the terminators with my contrast at almost 100% or remove the terminators and use my contrast at 50%, like I was always doing before?
It's my understanding that a dimmer picture is normal with BNC terminators.

I've read that contrast should be to the max for the better colours, and brightness to about half or whatever level you are comfortable with. Then you dim the contrast a bit if you want a more subdued picture.

To properly adjust contrast (white level), it's best to use a test pattern. There are a ton of good, cheap calibration discs that have this (there may or may not be one on the 240p Test Suite, but I can't remember). If you have a THX DVD, it also may have the THX Optimizer as an extra, which is a collection basic test patterns. It's gets very difficult, if not impossible to set contrast without a pattern.

Once you have the pattern displayed on screen, you'll want to turn up the contrast control as high it will go until any of the following happens:

Clipping: The upper range of white will start to blend together, losing fine detail. It starts at the brightest white levels and works its way down the higher contrast is set. Ideally you want to see as many gradations of white as possible.

Blooming: This is similar to clipping, but results in a fuzziness or blur around bright objects on screen. The brighter/whiter the object, the more blooming will affect its appearance. Again there's a loss of detail or clarity.

Geometry Distortion/Warping: If the contrast is too high, then it may cause warping or distortion. A good way to check this is with a grid pattaern in additon to a white level pattern.

Discoloration: Too high of a contrast can lead to changes in the color of white. Instead of mainting a neutral shade, white could shift to a different shade (such as blue). This will then affect other colors, throwing off the acccuracy of the display.

If any of these happen, you'll want to turn the contrast down until just before they occur. Once you've done that, you should then turn it down further until it's comfortable to view. If it's too high you'll easily get eye strain--especially if the room is dark. Also keep in mind that the higher you have it adjusted, the more strain you'll put on the components too (particulary the picture tube).

Before or after you've adjusted the contrast (or white level) control, you'll want to adjust the brightness (or black level) control. This requires a test pattern as well, which would also be on the same discs that contain one for contrast (I know for sure the 240p Suite has this particular pattern).

To adjust black level, you'll want to turn down the brightnss control all of the way until the darkest bars in he pattern (which are supposed to be equal to or darker than video black) dissappear. The next bar or couple of bars that are slightly lighter should be just barely visible. More specifics for this will depend on the specifc test pattern you are using, though the idea is the same for all of them. I should also add that black level may need to be adjusted differently depending on the input or source.

It's important to keep in mind that the brightness and contrast controls often interact with each other (especially on CRTs), so changes to one may affect the other. You may need to switch back and forth, readjusting until they're both consistent. Also keep in mind that CRTs will change black and white level dynamically depending what's displayed on screen (despite having the exact same settings). A full white screen, a small white square on a black background, and a checkerboard pattern will each show differing levels of white and black (they should all be the same on a perfect display).

As for color, technically, contrast does affect the color. If white and black are correctly set, however, then this isn't a problem. Adjusting color is a completely seperate beast and should only be done after white and black have been properly set. Fortunately, when displaying an RGB signal on CRT montiors, there shouldn't be any color calibration needed as the controls are often locked out. Some later model Sony monitors also have an auto color calibration function too.
 

Mega

Banned
Setting brightness and contrast with 240p Suite is pretty easy. If you get something that looks good with the games you play then you shouldn't spend too much extra time with it. All my monitor calibrations vary from one to the next, but it's downright unnoticeable unless I'm looking at them side by side.

Color casts (particularly in whites) are another thing that doesn't matter unless your monitor is way off or you're doing color critical work (which video games are not). In most cases, a slight cast is normal and the eye adjusts to not notice it unless there's something to contrast against (another monitor,a color chart). And our eyes are not pre-defined colorimeters. How we perceive colors changes constantly depending on medium, contrast, adjacent colors, ambient lighting, room decor, time of day, weather, season, personal mood, what we recently consumed (caffeine), amount of sleep we had, and so on. I used to obsess over color, still do, but I call it a wrap if I get to 90-95% of where I wanna be. What bothers me nowadays is stuff like a unusual very purple sky in SMB with certain NES color profiles, or vWii's severe blurriness and bad scaling.

Guy with the BVM... If it's dim with terminators and needs to be set to 100% for decent contrast, then the tube is probably weak with a lot of hours on it. It's probably when the tube was fresh that it needed terminators or else the RGB picture was too intense and would cause distortion. I would just play without them and enjoy the CRT for the remainder of its life (not a comment on its remaining life being short as it could still be years).
 

Rich!

Member
oh fucking lame

I get to the checkout with my new TV, decide to pay on finance (£400 down, pay remaining half in six months' time) and it turns out I need to pay the £400/deposit on the card connected to my bank account (ie. my debit card). I forgot the PIN for it months ago and haven't bothered to ask my bank for a new one as I use my credit card for daily purchases and the bank for cash withdrawals.

ah well. I shall return for it....next week.
 
Guy with the BVM... If it's dim with terminators and needs to be set to 100% for decent contrast, then the tube is probably weak with a lot of hours on it. It's probably when the tube was fresh that it needed terminators or else the RGB picture was too intense and would cause distortion. I would just play without them and enjoy the CRT for the remainder of its life (not a comment on its remaining life being short as it could still be years).

If not using the terminators gives you, for example, a 50% boost in the contrast, and using terminators cut 50% of the contrast, wouldn't be the same effect on the monitor lifespan to use the contrast at 50% (without terminators) or 100% (with terminators)?

Also, if the correct way to adjust the monitor is setting the picture to maximum contrast and then adjust the brightness accordingly, this method seems to work better with the terminators, because without terminators setting the contrast to 100% is too much.

Edit: With the 240p Suite (Genesis version), using the PLUGE test pattern, I can notice that setting the contrast to 100% with the terminators is also too much, because the scanlines in the white box are no longer visible. Even with the terminators I needed to reduce a good margin of the contrast to calibrate the picture correctly (according to 240p Suite).
 

Khaz

Member
Look at the cool shading effect the pipe has in composite mode that's completely lost in the other images.

Pretty sure that's an artefact of dot crawl digital upscaling. The colour inaccuracies of Composite do allow for some blending, but a still image like this one isn't representative of the result on a CRT.
 
Pretty sure that's an artefact of dot crawl digital upscaling. The colour inaccuracies of Composite do allow for some blending, but a still image like this one isn't representative of the result on a CRT.

The way those artifacts appear is very dependent on the display hardware as well.
 

Hero

Member
Hey guys, I read the OP but I'm a little confused, so I'm just going to ask for some direct help if that's cool.

So my brother bought a modded SNES that has an S-Video out port, but his HDTV doesn't have an S-Video port, but RGB. Does he need a converter/adapter here then? If so, can anyone recommend one?
 

Rich!

Member
Hey guys, I read the OP but I'm a little confused, so I'm just going to ask for some direct help if that's cool.

So my brother bought a modded SNES that has an S-Video out port, but his HDTV doesn't have an S-Video port, but RGB. Does he need a converter/adapter here then? If so, can anyone recommend one?

lol noooo don't use s video!

SNES outputs RGB natively. Buy an rgb scart cable (assuming your TV does have an rgb scart socket) Enjoy.
 

Hero

Member
lol noooo don't use s video!

SNES outputs RGB natively. Buy an rgb scart cable (assuming your TV does have an rgb scart socket) Enjoy.

Is this what you're talking about by SCART?

1-84m-21-pin-A-V-TV-Video-Game-font-b-Scart-b-font-RGB-Cable.jpg


If so, I don't know if his TV has that. I know he has the R/G/B colored connectors...

I will post a picture later if I can.
 

StayDead

Member
My new TV doesn't have any scart ports, for now I'm using my composite cables RBY port and using my Dreamcast's native RBY cable and N64/SNES cable. Is this fine to be using or should I look at a better solution?
 

grendelrt

Member
Is this what you're talking about by SCART?

1-84m-21-pin-A-V-TV-Video-Game-font-b-Scart-b-font-RGB-Cable.jpg


If so, I don't know if his TV has that. I know he has the R/G/B colored connectors...

I will post a picture later if I can.
If they are just red green and blue it's more than likely component not rgb, rgb is either a scart input or 4 bnc female connectors. You would need a scart to component converter and a scart cable.
 

Hero

Member
If they are just red green and blue it's more than likely component not rgb, rgb is either a scart input or 4 bnc female connectors. You would need a scart to component converter and a scart cable.

Okay, cool, I will have to get a picture of the inputs and post back here when I do. Thanks for the help everyone. :D
 

Rich!

Member
Here's an easier way to work it out:

Are you in the UK? You'll have a scart socket or an adapter for RGB.

Are you in America? You don't.
 

Khaz

Member
If so, I don't know if his TV has that. I know he has the R/G/B colored connectors...

If you are in the US, your TV doesn't have scart. The three RCA connectors you see are for Components cables, which isn't RGB even though the connectors are red, green and blue. I know, it's confusing.

You want either an encoder box outputting 240p Component, or an upscaler box outputting 1080p HDMI, depending on your TV and your finances.
 

Hero

Member
Here's an easier way to work it out:

Are you in the UK? You'll have a scart socket or an adapter for RGB.

Are you in America? You don't.

If you are in the US, your TV doesn't have scart. The three RCA connectors you see are for Components cables, which isn't RGB even though the connectors are red, green and blue. I know, it's confusing.

You want either an encoder box outputting 240p Component, or an upscaler box outputting 1080p HDMI, depending on your TV and your finances.

Yeah, in America, left that detail out.

And yeah, that is totally confusing.

What's the difference in price between an encoder box and an upscaler box?
 

Peltz

Member
Yeah, in America, left that detail out.

And yeah, that is totally confusing.

What's the difference in price between an encoder box and an upscaler box?
Welcome to the rabbit hole.

You want an upscaler. An transcoder will still look like shit on nearly every modern display because modern displays don't really understand 240p resolution.

Read up on the framemeister.
 

Hero

Member
Welcome to the rabbit hole.

You want an upscaler. An transcoder will still look like shit on nearly every modern display because modern displays don't really understand 240p resolution.

Read up on the framemeister.

That thing is like 400 dollars on Amazon. Holy crap.
 

Rich!

Member
That thing is like 400 dollars on Amazon. Holy crap.

Oh boy you ain't seen nothing yet. I modded all of my consoles myself for RGB (cheaper!) and my framemeister connected setup is still near enough two grands worth altogether.
 

NOLA_Gaffer

Banned
Honestly the easiest thing to do is hit up your local thrift store or Goodwill equivalent and pick up an old CRT for $5 to $20.

Unless you're really prepared to go all-in on retro gaming dropping the cash on scart cables and upscalers just isn't really worth it.

I settled on the happy medium of a prosumer CRT but due to its connections I'll never cross the S-Video barrier...nor do I want to spend the dosh to modify systems.
 
Honestly the easiest thing to do is hit up your local thrift store or Goodwill equivalent and pick up an old CRT for $5 to $20.

Unless you're really prepared to go all-in on retro gaming dropping the cash on scart cables and upscalers just isn't really worth it.

I settled on the happy medium of a prosumer CRT but due to its connections I'll never cross the S-Video barrier...nor do I want to spend the dosh to modify systems.

second this method. Unless you have financial resources to go hard, this is the best option.
 
Honestly the easiest thing to do is hit up your local thrift store or Goodwill equivalent and pick up an old CRT for $5 to $20.

Unless you're really prepared to go all-in on retro gaming dropping the cash on scart cables and upscalers just isn't really worth it.

I settled on the happy medium of a prosumer CRT but due to its connections I'll never cross the S-Video barrier...nor do I want to spend the dosh to modify systems.

I agree wit this, too. You'll only be about $10 in on the investment an you can see if it's for you. If you don't have the room and really must use the HDTV, then an s-video to component converter is the easiest step. However, be warned that the TV may not accept the 240p signal at all, and if it does it will probably have a fair amount of input lag and it will CERTAINLY look less than optimal.

If you want to go a step further and spend some money but not Framemeister money, you can buy a SCART cable and a SCART-to-component converter. That will set you back about $80. The picture will be a bit better but it will not change the other two issues I mentioned above.

Like Petlz, said ... welcome to the rabbit hole. (I think that needs to be the title of our OT2)
 
I agree wit this, too. You'll only be about $10 in on the investment an you can see if it's for you. If you don't have the room and really must use the HDTV, then an s-video to component converter is the easiest step. However, be warned that the TV may not accept the 240p signal at all, and if it does it will probably have a fair amount of input lag and it will CERTAINLY look less than optimal.

If you want to go a step further and spend some money but not Framemeister money, you can buy a SCART cable and a SCART-to-component converter. That will set you back about $80. The picture will be a bit better but it will not change the other two issues I mentioned above.

Like Petlz, said ... welcome to the rabbit hole. (I think that needs to be the title of our OT2)

Welcome to the Rabbit Hole. Entry Fee: $2000
 
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