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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
- Start date
- Status
crap. seems minus is sabotaging me.
i'm gonna fix that.
edit: fixed.
is it really that bad to use widescreen? i can make new ones with 4:3 (i was planning to do other games too)
i'm gonna fix that.
edit: fixed.
is it really that bad to use widescreen? i can make new ones with 4:3 (i was planning to do other games too)
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Well, if the point is to do a comparison, anything that could distort the image is going to be an issue.
GayForMaster
Banned
Are there PVM/BVMs without scanlines?
Wish I could take such good photos of my PVM!
If I could I'd show off Super Metroid, Guardian Heroes, and Streets of Rage, just off the top of my head.
IrishNinja
Member
So.... should we make a separate PVM RGB thread?
"CRTs & RGB: Retro gaming done better"?
I kid I kid 
Seriously though, should we split the discussion? I kinda feel bad now for perverting this pure upscaler thread with my PVM lark all the time.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Why?
The majority of the things that get discussed would just be duplicated across both threads anyway. Cables, system mods, signal/tech Q&A, snide remarks about Hyperkin and their ilk, peripheral topics like video capture, etc.
Oh I don't want to have it split. I'm just not sure why the title and OP has to stay as upscalers only, when the discussion is equally (if not more so) about CRTs and PVMs/BVMs. If I didn't know that was discussed so often in this thread already I'd probably end up here and then wonder why it was so quiet, lol.
lostinblue
Banned
Yes.
But it's unlikely you'll come across them anytime soon.
They still cost too much and are too new.All CRT PVM/BVM's have scanlines going for them. Actual scanline width varies with the amount of TVLines they have, they say the highest spec'ed ones show something like a 2 pixel scanline against 1 pixel of actual detail - which is a matter of taste, but it's a lot more like a scanline generator with width regulation on high these days than a CRT, albeit not regulable (although brightness is).
600 and 800 TVL models don't do that so I'm guessing that remark is for the 1100 TVL ones. Most important is getting one that isn't half-life or further down it's life.
Friend of Sonic
Member
I don't know if I should be thinking about this, but what happens down the road when all of these PVMs are dead? Will we ever see a company do a run of gamer oriented CRTs? Is that even possible? I think there's a market, a small one, but a market. Or will we just be using upscalers for modern television sets because that will be the only viable option?
sixteen-bit
Member
By the time mine die, I just hope there's a good enough alternative available so I don't feel like I'm settling.
Friend of Sonic
Member
I've seen a XRGB in action. It's cool. But I really like using a CRT.
sixteen-bit
Member
Yeah. Pretty much my concern is with the input lag.
lostinblue
Banned
I've thought about that a lot too, in a sense being able to buy these new would be a godsend for years to come.
I know the PVM/BVM factory still exist, it first stopped doing stuff in 2004 but was later reopened in 2007. Manufactured until 2009. Still there - most likely.
One could most likely pull one like the Impossible project which is the story of a dude that actually purchased the last Polaroid factory when Polaroid announced they would exit the business and have been happily gaining track of the technology ever since.
But I don't have the money, we don't have the money. Nor the engineers, nor... But I'd love to see it happen.
It's not just CRT's that are missing, it's a brand focused on gaming altogether. Imagine a 55" or 65"screen with 640x480, 1280x960 or 1920x1440 (these HD variants are perfect multiples of SD so scaling would be perfect 1:2 or 1:3 but could also be used as HDTV's with black bars), of course there could be a market there, you could even throw scanline options in for free and obviously a lot of ports, Scart, S-video, VGA, component (you could even throw something like an integrated xrgb mini).
I'd buy.
It's worth being said that at 60.000 hours minimum until half life some of us have gaming monitors for a lot of years since they are not to be used for anything else. And if it hits half life you can try and pull a lazarus on it with voltage changes and the like, for real desperate people I guess.
lostinblue
Banned
Have you hugged your PVM's today? ™
I wish I had the money for more CRT hunting (not just PVM's, I've reached the conclusion I'm a CRT lover, I like tinkering and testing I can see one with a good design and upmarket for it's time without wanting to plug stuff onto it), it's really hard to get a job in the poor side of europe these days so acquisitions are on standby. With the spike in SNES and PSone prices I've been trying to get stuff on the cheap before it's too late, with a budget, so yeah.
Later Alligator
Member
these bvm/pvm monitors are all really small screens
while i can appreciate the quality of them i need something bigger!
while i can appreciate the quality of them i need something bigger!
Friend of Sonic
Member
I'm gonna read about the Impossible Project-- sounds fascinating. Also, that is shocking the PVM/BVM factory opened back up and operated until 2009? That's crazy, I didn't know CRT production had lasted that long.
lostinblue
Banned
Sony initially offloaded every production line in 2004, CRT line died, Plasma was nuked and the LCD line started using Samsung panels (the Sony+Samsung venture, with sony investing in Samsung's tech).
Thing is CRT's still hadn't been surpassed, and arguably still haven't, which makes this a very funny read:
-> http://www.dolby.com/us/en/professi...0-professional-reference-monitor-details.html
A Dolbi monitor that costs several dozens of dollars is ignoring LCD and Plasma altogether and focusing in "we finally did it, CRT you unlikely final boss motherfuckers" kind of speech.
Obviously though, and because this is still true, after Sony discontinued them professionals were baffled... Every professional photographer worth it's money is still using CRT because of color accuracy too... And they didn't want LCD Sony professional products at all, so Sony had to pull a phoenix down on it.
They still have stock, so if you have a studio and one of your PVM's bites the dust you can still buy a new one (which is why Sony still gives PVM and BVM's support like they were purchased yesterday - infact they could be, albeit only the A-series), I believe the 14" ones are 10.000 euros or so, which is the original price and never to be rebated. And they're selling, slowly but surely. Studios usually use the 14 in clusters of 4 (which is why they're so easy to come by, but usually half life), 20 inchers are more uncommon and then there's the 32" behemoths that are very hard to come by for less than 1500 euros a pop.
Their page actually still lists the top range flagship of old. Discontinued yeah, but I know 6 months ago they had stock. (not for 10.000 euros though, original price - no rebates)
When they shut down production again in 2009 it was because they wanted to sell and impose their new OLED line, but I'd guess a new CRT run is never out the cards so long as professionals sought after them.
The Impossible Project is fascinating alright, they started out without access to chemicals that were manufactured elsewhere so there was a fair bit of high level reverse engineering, with trial and error going on but they were always quite open about it and willing to replace films that went bad and the like. It's now reaching a point when it's very mature but it's technically the third generation of film already, first gen shown degradation (crystallization), second gen is fine but developing color pictures takes 45 minutes or so and it's more sensible to light in the first minutes (hence it has to be shielded), against the original 2/3 minutes. New gen is finally matching the last Polaroid films manufactured.
I've been using my polaroid not only due to it's newfound "hipster"style... it's kind of amazing the drawing power it has, if you are taking a photo at someone it always turns into a group photo and then everyone wants to keep the picture that came out... but also because I felt they deserved my money, kind of thing. I think it's sad to see hard earned research done on analog picture and video (CRT's in particular) lost forever so I'm very willing to support these counter-currents.
Later Alligator
Member
my lekeng arrived today, and my snes/genesis cables arrived last week.
my eyes! all of the composite smudging is gone... specifically for snes. is it normal to get no video output at all on a non-rgb modded n64? my understanding is you would get something just really dark
my eyes! all of the composite smudging is gone... specifically for snes. is it normal to get no video output at all on a non-rgb modded n64? my understanding is you would get something just really dark
lostinblue
Banned
Everything can be solved with a little R&D and most likely borrowing the solutions Plasmas had to employ in later years because they were similar in a lot of strange ways. The phosphor used, for instance.
Reducing the power draw down up to LCD OLED standards being harder, just as it was for Plasma. But replacing components... not so much.
CRT's are still manufactured. Phillips still sells them in india.
Ikegami also manufactured them until not too long ago (perhaps as late as 2011/2012).
I'm sure there are a few other examples... I'm 95% sure I've seen iconic TV's lately (the portable aquarium design with rounded tube) reproduced and sold as new in "Design" stores latel... I'm not betting on it being a 80's product because they were shinning and had a modern factory packaging going on.
Plenty of arcade CRT monitors are still produced...the chinese models, Nieman Displays in Canada, etc.
lostinblue
Banned
Thank you! I was googling for arcade monitor manufacturers but having no luck. Would take a while to get there.
I didn't know Nieman.
China has some CRT factories still going, but they are meant for the developing world, like those Phillips I've shown. Fact is the R&D for them has been stale since 2004/2005 and they're as cost reduced as possible too so they'll use poluting substances over clean ones in a heartbeat if that means cheaper to make. So they really couldn't be sold in europe anymore, perhaps US or Canada (I don't know US guidelines, but I believe energy star still applies).
Sony PVM/BVM and Ikegami CRT screens being the last developed world sold CRT's I know off that were upmarket, so upmarket they were only meant for pro's but still. One or two other brands, also, for sure. Hantarex was also in the game until 2009 or so, no? Newer arcade monitors I don't know. they should still have spares and perhaps the factory also on standby should they need more. But they don't sell the whole monitor anymore.
I feel like I'm forgetting someone else. Perhaps Mitsubishi or NEC? I don't know how long they lasted. Toshiba was possibly the last well know manufacturer to bow out on the consumer level. Phillips also lasted until 2008 and doing CRT HDTV's no less.
Huh... Sorry if this is a little off topic, but how are you running a GameCube game on a Wii U?
I've got a Nieman tri-sync. A bit pricey but exceptional quality.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
At this point, I think it just makes more sense for me to get an LCD or plasma for my new setup. I need it to be easy to rotate, and I want a pretty big screen. A CRT just isn't going to be practical for it.
But man, it's tough finding something legitimately good for gaming.
But man, it's tough finding something legitimately good for gaming.
lostinblue
Banned
I'll look into it as soon as I have the time.
I don't think they're sold in europe though (sadly), otherwise I would have heard the name.
Still, this is a market that shouldn't be left for dead imo.
Probably homebrew+Devolution.
lostinblue
Banned
R&D for it was cut down though, who knows where we could be today had it went on.
At one point there were working flat CRT's (really flat, not just the front) prototypes, able to match LCD's (LCD's of the time obviously). Of course, thinner neck on the back has extra problems to be solved (just like the flat front) but it can be done. Could be done. The 16:9 BVM's were flat, and not a single fuck had been given for they knew their shit.
There also where some very good TV's who were thiner than usual:
Mostly good design too, but it's far easier to accommodate than a solid block of... CRT.
Whoops, double post.
Apologies if these are dumb questions, but I've just bought my first PVM (14-L4) and I'm looking for some help. The only RGB cable I have at the moment is this one for my JP Saturn and I'm wondering what the best (/easiest) way to connect it is. From reading RetroRGB I was looking at the male SCART to BNC adaptor (with input SCART direction).
However, after talking to one of the guys on customer support he said I'd be better buying a female SCART to BNC if I wasn't planning on using a SCART selector box (I don't know what this is).
Any help would be appreciated. I buy the gear, but I don't know the first thing about it...
edit: do I want to pay the extra tenner for a sync cleaner?
However, after talking to one of the guys on customer support he said I'd be better buying a female SCART to BNC if I wasn't planning on using a SCART selector box (I don't know what this is).
Any help would be appreciated. I buy the gear, but I don't know the first thing about it...
edit: do I want to pay the extra tenner for a sync cleaner?
On the left. Unless you fancy constantly unplugging and re-plugging your cables whenever you switch console, you'll want one of those. Mine was £10 from Argos.
Basically if you buy with a female end you'll be able to connect a console's SCART cable directly, but will need an extra SCART cable to connect to a switch. If you go male instead, you won't be able to connect consoles directly, but it saves you from needing a superfluous SCART cable when using it with a switch (which is damn useful if you don't live in Europe and therefore can't just buy a goddamn SCART cable in any random electronics store).
Here's the usual recommended SCART switch if you're looking for one:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0015YYN1W/
Depends, some PVMs need one and some don't. But considering you mentioned you had a JP Saturn I would strongly recommend buying one without, because the non-PAL Saturns lack power on their AV out, which makes them incompatible with cables with built-in sync cleaners.
Here's the usual recommended SCART switch if you're looking for one:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0015YYN1W/
Depends, some PVMs need one and some don't. But considering you mentioned you had a JP Saturn I would strongly recommend buying one without, because the non-PAL Saturns lack power on their AV out, which makes them incompatible with cables with built-in sync cleaners.
lostinblue
Banned
I'd guess it's mostly a generational thing although the higher TVL's it has going on the more likely it'll do.
It's not a major omission and if you plug in something component onto it, although it can't show it properly it's not a "no image" result either, image gets divided in two and is shown side by side or something. I always plug my Wii with 480p turned on and then navigate the menus on the PVM to change it, it's kinda impressive to be able to do it like that on a 1995 PVM might I add.
lostinblue
Banned
I change it back to 480i over component and it works fine.
Set at 480p the image gets vertically divided and the halves are swapped (I think) so it's not displayed correctly and therefore not compatible but it's perfectly readable and able to be navigated up to the option to change it.
I always forget it's set for 480p when I plug them in.
I'll look into it as soon as I have the time.
I don't think they're sold in europe though (sadly), otherwise I would have heard the name.
Still, this is a market that shouldn't be left for dead imo.Probably homebrew+Devolution.
Whoa, whoa
whoa
holy shit
IrishNinja
Member
^again, this. our stuff is kinda niche so no, splitting RGB & upscalers from good CRT & PVM talk makes no sense, everything fits here and honestly we can edit the title but many people stumbled in & got info on CRTs/etc just fine as it is, i think we're good!
start here, i wish i knew about it when i got my newest plasma - fantastic IQ but more lag than the last model.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Cool, thanks. I'll check that out and ask around the shmups forum a bit and see where that gets me. It's kind of a pain researching TVs, but I'm moving and need a new one, so I might as well do it right.
The worst part about looking for a good HDTV is that since manufacturers tend to refresh their lines as often as every 6 months or so, getting reliable info about the current models is almost impossible.
Last time I bought an HDTV, all display lag info I could find were for last year models that were no longer sold in stores. Very frustrating!
Although nowadays it seems like they're finally getting better overall. Sony in particular seems to have started genuinely caring about display lag, and tends to have solid performance across their whole lineup. My next HDTV will most likely be a Sony.
Last time I bought an HDTV, all display lag info I could find were for last year models that were no longer sold in stores. Very frustrating!
Although nowadays it seems like they're finally getting better overall. Sony in particular seems to have started genuinely caring about display lag, and tends to have solid performance across their whole lineup. My next HDTV will most likely be a Sony.
Andy the cook
Neo Member
Hey guys I'm pretty new to all this retro upscaler stuff, so I want to ask some questions before I make a big investment. All I want is to play my original snes games on my hdtv and have them look as good as possible. Would you guys say that the xrgb-mini is the best way to do that at this current time? Also if I did happen to buy a xrgb, I heard that a modded snes mini puts out a better picture with an xrgb then a reg snes, Is that true? Thanks.
First off, just to clear any potential confusion - as many people seem to be confused:
EVERY original design SNES/Super Famicom, regardless of region, outputs RGB through SCART as default. The second revision (the US/JP SNES/SFC Mini) does not.
The first revisions of the SNES (1990-1995) use a motherboard design where the PPU chips are seperated into two modules. This is the default SNES design, and the majority are based on this motherboard. The image it outputs is slightly blurry, which is apparently Nintendo's original intention.
The second revision is the 1-CHIP revision that came out in 1995. This combines the PPU chips into one single module, and outputs a crystal clear image via RGB with no blurring at all. This is the same kind of image the SNES Mini outputs when modded for RGB (but slightly better on the Mini). The standard model 1-CHIP SNES's are very hard to find - and the only surefire way of knowing is by either hooking it up to your XRGB/CRT or opening it up to check the motherboard.
Some comparisons can be found at:
http://sd2snes.de/blog/archives/75
http://retrorgb.com/1chipsnes.html
sixteen-bit
Member
pretty much. why form your own dissenting opinion when nintendo obviously knows best?
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