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[Exclamation-One]

Thanks, lostinblue. I agree that older games should be seen the way it was on a CRT display and not w/ picture perfect pixels (that old Final Fantasy example comes to mind).

I just have doubts that there can ever be an 'objectively' pure/perfect picture. For me, that comparison of Super Metroid looks way too crisp and WAY TOO DARK using only scanlines.

It would look good if it wasn't for the blurry look and the chromanoise effect on lower part, over that wall and polluting the black.

My folks had a rather large TV which had a fair amount of bloom. Might be nostalgia talking, but R-Type would probably have looked liked the screenshot that Lettuce posted. Looks awesome.

 

[Andy the cook]

So I have my mini snes plugged in to the xrgb mini, I'm getting sound but no picture. All it has is a blue screen with "no_input" on it.

Spoiler

This is probably a really simple fix but I'm a noobie, so be nice

 

[RobFox64tm]

So I have my mini snes plugged in to the xrgb mini, I'm getting sound but no picture. All it has is a blue screen with "no_input" on it.

Spoiler

This is probably a really simple fix but I'm a noobie, so be nice

Is your SNES Mini RGB modded? This feature didn't come with this version of SNES sadly, so it won't work through the RGB input on the mini.

 

[Lettuce]

Regarding Super Metroid:

I'd say scanlines are more "accurate".
I would look good if it wasn't for the blurry look and the blurry chromanoise/shine/bloomy effect on lower part, after the object stops and it starts polluting the black.

Sigh... I hate those filters, they always screw up more often than not.

The fact is if i took a screen shot that close to my CRT it would probably look more blurry

But back to what Exclamation-One was asking about Shovel Knight, there was a program i used to use that would allow you to add overlays over Windows and so you could make a scanline overlay to your exact screen resolution, that would probably produce better effect that what sweet fx does for these pixel art games.I cant remember for the life of me what the program was called, anyone have any ideas?

 

[Andy the cook]

Is your SNES Mini RGB modded? This feature didn't come with this version of SNES sadly, so it won't work through the RGB input on the mini.

Yes it is.

 

[sixteen-bit]

The fact is if i took a screen shot that close to my CRT it would probably look more blurry

But back to what Exclamation-One was asking about Shovel Knight, there was a program i used to use that would allow you to add overlays over Windows and so you could make a scanline overlay to your exact screen resolution, that would probably produce better effect that what sweet fx does for these pixel art games.I cant remember for the life of me what the program was called, anyone have any ideas?

I got the analog version.

 

[lostinblue]

I just have doubts that there can ever be an 'objectively' pure/perfect picture. For me, that comparison of Super Metroid looks way too crisp and WAY TOO DARK using only scanlines.

Scanline perceptible width depends on amount of TVLines - for example on Trinitron scanlines will be thicker on the models with most TVL's, same is true for all TV's able to display them, overall brightness (as previously implied too) and also aperture grille/shadow mask type/structure too.

Thing with Metroid there is that I had limited amount of resolution and colors to show just that, that thickness is very HiDef Trinitron with 1 line of data and 1 blank, most CRT TV's are probably more like as if each line of image information was 2 pixels tall and the blank one 1 pixel tall, kind of ratio.

Like this:

With light fluctuations doing the rest.

Effectively more often than not they blend like this:

But I couldn't do that on the GIF, 50% transparency on the even (black) lines would mean almost doubling colors. GIF's are limited to 256 colors and I wanted to be faithful to the original.

What I'm saying is... it shouldn't be as dark as I originally showed (methodology explained now) and even if it was it would be counting on the CRT brightness to counter it, most CRT's in good working condition can get very bright, also whites definitely won't appear dim/grey bar very low brightness going on, it usually "overflows" specifically there, the brighther the colors are.

Of course that's what that shovel knight shader was attempting to, but it wasn't very good.

The fact is if i took a screen shot that close to my CRT it would probably look more blurry

You're simulating scanlines via shaders... on a CRT?

That's kinda full circle in itself.

I just dislike the bloom in that part I pointed, but that makes it completely unusable for me.

 

[televator]

Hahahahahahaha... So get this. While i was asleep this morning, my best friend who's mind I apparently contaminated with all my talk of RGB and XM29s, went out and picked up an XM29 for 50 bucks. Just. Like. That. Hahahahahaha....

He wants me to bring over my Kuro VGA to play Power Stone on DC on it. IM GONNA KICK HIS FICKING ASS. Hahahahaha

 

[Gruso]

Haha, don't you hate shit like that.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Hahahahahahaha... So get this. While i was asleep this morning, my best friend who's mind I apparently contaminated with all my talk of RGB and XM29s, went out and picked up an XM29 for 50 bucks. Just. Like. That. Hahahahahaha....

He wants me to bring over my Kuro VGA to play Power Stone on DC on it. IM GONNA KICK HIS FICKING ASS. Hahahahaha

the way XM29s fall out the sky where you live you're bound to find one

 

[televator]

the way XM29s fall out the sky where you live you're bound to find one

Yeah IDK man its hard seing them so close and yet I can't have them. I can't deal with these feels. To top it off, my friend am betray me. A few weeks ago, he couldn't give a shit about an old CRT and now the holly grail is in his hands?! He's my friend and I'm glad he found one, but its hard not to feel like this whole thing gives me rabies.

 

[RobFox64tm]

Yes it is.

Something similar happened to me when I got my N64 modded. Sound/no picture. Sent it back to my modding guy and he couldn't figure out what was causing it, but opening up the case and closing it again fixed the problem. He suspected that maybe it was screwed together too tight, so maybe that'll fix your issue as well.

 

[Andy the cook]

Something similar happened to me when I got my N64 modded. Sound/no picture. Sent it back to my modding guy and he couldn't figure out what was causing it, but opening up the case and closing it again fixed the problem. He suspected that maybe it was screwed together too tight, so maybe that'll fix your issue as well.

Ok I'll try contacting him, thanks

 

[lostinblue]

Yeah IDK man its hard seing them so close and yet I can't have them. I can't deal with these feels. To top it off, my friend am betray me. A few weeks ago, he couldn't give a shit about an old CRT and now the holly grail is in his hands?! He's my friend and I'm glad he found one, but its hard not to feel like this whole thing gives me rabies.

He should have asked if you wanted it but he probably knew the answer.

Being mad about it and bringing it up is bound to be seen as petty, so don't. But you're right and entitled to it nonetheless, and that will surely change the nature of your relation. I also know people like that, that can't hear something is good otherwise in a week's time they'll hunt it down and tell you. Even if you don't have it. Not even a thank you.

But they aren't my close friends for a reason and I avoid telling them whatever I'm into or doing because I know they'll follow just because - I believe in a way they are trying to be aknowledged by me, but that's another story.

I always feel like they must have no real opinion about things themselves, it's the sort of "I bought this because I was told it was great" that I hate so much, it's like they're lazy when it comes to thinking with their own heads, or understanding why. Understanding why is very important.

For a lot of things, you have to desperately want stuff before you acquire them otherwise they'll have no meaning - it's like when someone gets onto a TV shop and declares he wants the best one, does he really need one? He's probably just waving his wallet. In the end though there's no process to get there and you just take them for granted. And that's not right.

He wants me to bring over my Kuro VGA to play Power Stone on DC on it. IM GONNA KICK HIS FICKING ASS. Hahahahaha

Tell him it cost you 50 bucks, hence, you'll happily trade it for his XM29.

 

[Friend of Sonic]

I'd love to get a XM29, but I have a TV stand I love, but it only supports 90 lbs (recommended) I feel like I'm already pushing my luck with the 20l5 and the two speakers I bought to set next to it. I guess you could go old school and buy one of the old Entertainment centers with a square partition. But I could never find one there it sat at viewing level of me sitting on the loveseat.

Anyway, moot point, after my experience with my first 20l5 getting trashed internally in transit, and the fact I live in AZ, home of no cool CRTs ever, I guess I don't need to chase the dream. Also, I keep telling myself the visual fidelity will be slightly better with a smaller screen to soothe my obsessions.

EDIT: According to Search Tempest, an ad in Phoenix was put up 6 days ago for a XM29 that is now deleted. ...Son of a bitch...

 

[televator]

He should have asked if you wanted it but he probably knew the answer.

Being mad about it and bringing it up is bound to be seen as petty, so don't. But you're right and entitled to it nonetheless, and that will surely change the nature of your relation. I also know people like that, that can't hear something is good otherwise in a week's time they'll hunt it down and tell you. Even if you don't have it. Not even a thank you.

But they aren't my close friends for a reason and I avoid telling them whatever I'm into or doing because I know they'll follow just because - I believe in a way they are trying to be aknowledged by me, but that's another story.

I always feel like they must have no real opinion about things themselves, it's the sort of "I bought this because I was told it was great" that I hate so much, it's like they're lazy when it comes to thinking with their own heads, or understanding why. Understanding why is very important.

For a lot of things, you have to desperately want stuff before you acquire them otherwise they'll have no meaning - it's like when someone gets onto a TV shop and declares he wants the best one, does he really need one? He's probably just waving his wallet. In the end though there's no process to get there and you just take them for granted. And that's not right.Tell him it cost you 50 bucks, hence, you'll happily trade it for his XM29.

Yeah you pretty much nailed my sentiment. Though usually it was the opposite thing that annoyed me. People comming to me and asking me what would be the best piece of tech for X use. I tell them in great detail what makes something "better" and what sorts of things to avoid... I come back a week later and they've got a big shit eating grin on their face and they ask me what I think of their ginormous, dirt cheap, shitty brand, LCD TV. sigh

Anyway, my best friend is my brother. I'll be angry, but a TV ain't gonna fuck every thing up. However, you are also right that this does change something. It brings to light something that will factor into what I choose to let him in on. That's not something that was there before. Fucking life.

 

[Later Alligator]

The majority of Genesis/Megadrive models have an infamously awful composite output that you absolutely want to avoid at all costs (for RGB you need a raw sync cable because the awfulness of the composite will still shit the bed otherwise).

gotcha, thanks

lucky that my scart to 8 pin adapter showed up today and i cant believe how good it looks!

 

[theSlacker]

I have never seen an xm29 for sale and you have a close encounter with 2 in a week.

Imo you should just pack up all your retro stuff and just move into where he has it set up. That will learn him.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Yeah you pretty much nailed my sentiment. Though usually it was the opposite thing that annoyed me. People comming to me and asking me what would be the best piece of tech for X use. I tell them in great detail what makes something "better" and what sorts of things to avoid... I come back a week later and they've got a big shit eating grin on their face and they ask me what I think of their ginormous, dirt cheap, shitty brand, LCD TV. sigh

Anyway, my best friend is my brother. I'll be angry, but a TV ain't gonna fuck every thing up. However, you are also right that this does change something. It brings to light something that will factor into what I choose to let him in on. That's not something that was there before. Fucking life.

Lesson learned, lol. Only discuss stuff you already own or don't want.

 

[IrishNinja]

i couldn't do that. like, a PVM would be neat, but if one fell outta my lap, id have to hit up a buddy who's made a life goal of finding one first.

 

[Gruso]

I was even scared to ask about the B&O 4000 here. What if it's highly sought after? What if another Ausgaffer does a search for giggles and sees the one I'm quietly bidding on? But I wanted some opinions before buying, so it was a catch 22. Much hand wringing ensued.

 

[baphomet]

I was even scared to ask about the B&O 4000 here. What if it's highly sought after? What if another Ausgaffer does a search for giggles and sees the one I'm quietly bidding on? But I wanted some opinions before buying, so it was a catch 22. Much hand wringing ensued.

Yup, never mention stuff like that if you plan on buying it. See a great deal on something you have no interest in, but someone else may? Let people know. But if I see something I want, I won't mention it until after I win it.

 

[Adam Blue]

Looks like someone has a bunch of PVM-20l5's in Vancouver. It says $600...not sure if that's for the lot or what. But $600 is outrageous for a single display.

 

[DracoBlade]

So I was walking by a goodwill on the way to lunch and said what the hell I haven't gone goodwill hunting in awhile, took a chance and went in. Absolutely nothing beyond clothes and knick knacks, terrible, till I walked by the tv aisle and saw this:

Having been on GAF, Retro Gaf in particular I always remember people mentioning Trinitron's/WEGA's were one of the best CRT's for retro gaming. Was surprised to find a trinitron out of nowhere to say the least, especially when its marked at $15. I took the chance and the back pain from lifting the heavy son of a bitch and bought it.

This thing destroyed my room setup lol.

(Sorry for my terrible Iphone pics!)

After looking up the model number and doing some quick google searches apparently this is my model 27" Trinitron® WEGA® Model # KV-27FV15


Having very limited knowledge on Trinitron's and CRT's in general, is this a good model? Is my back pain justified friends? I'm about to test my Neo Geo CD on it via Svideo and see if this legend of CRT quality lives true!

 

[Adam Blue]

As far as I know (and from what I've tested since I used to own one), it is the best consumer CRT available.

 

[Khaz]

I wonder if you could open American CRTs and solder RGB on them. I'm not really knowledgeable about that stuff but apparently the RGB format is as simple as each colour channel controls each three of electron beams, with the sync telling them when to start (as in "go back to the upper left corner when I say so"). I don't think there is signal interpretation of any sort, so much that in order to decrease brightness of a colour, you just need to solder a resistor in its path.

 

[baphomet]

I wonder if you could open American CRTs and solder RGB on them. I'm not really knowledgeable about that stuff but apparently the RGB format is as simple as each colour channel controls each three of electron beams, with the sync telling them when to start (as in "go back to the upper left corner when I say so"). I don't think there is signal interpretation of any sort, so much that in order to decrease brightness of a colour, you just need to solder a resistor in its path.

Its possible, but also needlessly complicated and dangerous.

 

[Khaz]

Dangerous, I'll give you that. But complicated? How so? Do you know more about it / have access to resources? If it's just a matter of soldering four RCA at the end of the tube, it could put an end to the foolish quest for The Ultimate PVM.

Do Not Try This At Home / Ask For Parental Supervision, of course.

[edit] Damn, viletim is everywhere

[edit2] Apparently, this is something people do. I'm learning every day.

 

[Adam Blue]

Dangerous, I'll give you that. But complicated? How so? Do you know more about it / have access to resources? If it's just a matter of soldering four RCA at the end of the tube, it could put an end to the foolish quest for The Ultimate PVM.

Do Not Try This At Home / Ask For Parental Supervision, of course.

[edit] Damn, viletim is everywhere

[edit2] Apparently, this is something people do. I'm learning every day.

This is awesome. Thanks for sharing.

 

[televator]

i couldn't do that. like, a PVM would be neat, but if one fell outta my lap, id have to hit up a buddy who's made a life goal of finding one first.

We should be friends, ninja. I guess that's the root of this. Knowing that if the situation were reversed, I would pass the find on to the friend. Bros before professional editing monitors. Lol

 

[dhonk]

Yesssss.

My god, thats the most gorgeous CRT I've ever seen. I'm pretty much screwed being an american yeah? Would love to have one.

 

[Gruso]

I believe they were sold in the States, so just keep an ear to the ground. They don't seem to be very common, but when they do appear, not many people seem to know or care what they are.

Picking mine up tonight - hopefully I'll get some impressions up in the next day.

 

[Andy the cook]

My xrgb-mini has seemed to have croaked. I can no longer get it to display any picture apart from things like this,

Has anyone else run in to something like this before?

 

[ZealousD]

Alright guys. I picked up an OG Xbox. I'd like to have component video on this thing. What are my options? Somebody told me that most 3rd party component cables are kind of ass on the thing.

 

[balladofthewindfish]

My first question: I have read here on GAF that Wii VC games look better than they did back in the day. Is that true?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

My first question: I have read here on GAF that Wii VC games look better than they did back in the day. Is that true?

Probably varies on a lot of factors. I think that even the different VC platforms have different filters to some degree; I recall NES games being a little dark or something. Never done a side by side comparison but I could probably try that sometime.

Sort of a tangent: Anyone else kind of roll their eyes when somebody busts out "PQ" or "IQ" when talking about visuals? Personally, it always comes across to me as trying to sound informed while saying absolutely nothing of substance.

 

[Khaz]

I don't even know what PQ and IQ mean.

 

[Gruso]

I'm deducing Picture Quality / Image Quality. Have to agree, even if you skip the hip abbreviations, they really say absolutely nothing.

 

[IrishNinja]

picture quality/image quality, i believe

*edit DAMMIT

 

[Khaz]

My first question: I have read here on GAF that Wii VC games look better than they did back in the day. Is that true?

The guy you quoted says nothing substancial except that it looks better than RF.

Anything looks better than RF. Even Composite looks better than RF. VC doesn't do any magic or apply special filters (to my knowledge), and games don't look any different than what hey should look. You just missed the correct look back in the day because you were living in America and playing on shitty RF or Composite.

If you are playing the with a Wii plugged to a modern flatscreen TV, be wary of input lag. Mega Man 9 is virtually unplayable when I plug my Wii on my parents TV. Like that video with the guy debunking that terrible budget upscaler every clueless person is acquiring.

 

[7DollarHagane]

Okay here's my question. I have genesis, nes, and SNES connected via SCART to component and enjoy the clarity and color.

What I don't understand is that I feel like with over the air TV we got a better picture quality (with a good signal) than these old systems give with RF. Why was RF so bad on these older consoles in comparison? You were using the same coaxial connection on the TV.

Furthermore with digital broadcast you can now get HD signal and pretty good quality sound through over the air through a coaxial jack.

Why isn't there any solution for these consoles that uses the coaxial connection at a much higher quality?

 

[Khaz]

Because broadband TV is tricking you. You are watching live action, with many gradients of colours and no clear demarcation between colours at the pixel level, inherent blurriness in films due to cameras, no straight lines either, everything is curved. The faults of Composite and RF are less prominent under these conditions, but you can still see them when watching carefully and of course switching from Composite to RGB on your DVD for example would still give you a noticeably better picture.

Videogames on the contrary need pixel-perfect colour precision, every bleeding colour, wobbly straight line will be immediately noticed.

You can test by watching a shopping channel, or a news channel with many boxes with scrolling text. You'll notice the Composite problems on the edges of the box and the background. You will have trouble reading the small prints too. I'm using an external DVB-T receiver on my CRT, and it allows me to switch from Composite to RGB instantly (as both go through Scart) and it pretty much confirms what I'm saying: it doesn't make much a difference on live action, but give lots of clarity on digital inserts like maps, logos, text.

[edit] Of course the benefits of RGB on Broadband TV came with Digital TV and its specific encoding, before that it didn't make any difference obviously. Analogue TV was bad RF signal that was less noticed because it was live action picture.

 

[Peagles]

I don't even know what PQ and IQ mean.

They both sound wanky.

 

[dark10x]

My xrgb-mini has seemed to have croaked. I can no longer get it to display any picture apart from things like this,

Has anyone else run in to something like this before?

Does it react or only display that color? That looks like the default blue screen that is displayed when there is no input.

Maybe the TV is having an issue instead?

 

[7DollarHagane]

Because broadband TV is tricking you. You are watching live action, with many gradients of colours and no clear demarcation between colours at the pixel level, inherent blurriness in films due to cameras, no straight lines either, everything is curved. The faults of Composite and RF are less prominent under these conditions, but you can still see them when watching carefully and of course switching from Composite to RGB on your DVD for example would still give you a noticeably better picture.

Videogames on the contrary need pixel-perfect colour precision, every bleeding colour, wobbly straight line will be immediately noticed.

You can test by watching a shopping channel, or a news channel with many boxes with scrolling text. You'll notice the Composite problems on the edges of the box and the background. You will have trouble reading the small prints too. I'm using an external DVB-T receiver on my CRT, and it allows me to switch from Composite to RGB instantly (as both go through Scart) and it pretty much confirms what I'm saying: it doesn't make much a difference on live action, but give lots of clarity on digital inserts like maps, logos, text.

[edit] Of course the benefits of RGB on Broadband TV came with Digital TV and its specific encoding, before that it didn't make any difference obviously. Analogue TV was bad RF signal that was less noticed because it was live action picture.

Okay, that makes sense about old over the air coaxial connections. But why now can we get a nice crisp HD picture of a football game over the air using only the coaxial jack and an antenna, but connect a game console or DVD with that same coaxial, and its blurry and fuzzy?

There's something I'm not understanding about the capabilities of that simple coaxial jack on almost every TV since the 80s.

 

[Khaz]

Okay, that makes sense about old over the air coaxial connections. But why now can we get a nice crisp HD picture of a football game over the air using only the coaxial jack and an antenna, but connect a game console or DVD with that same coaxial, and its blurry and fuzzy?

There's something I'm not understanding about the capabilities of that simple coaxial jack on almost every TV since the 80s.

Digital Vs analogue. You can encode much more information in bits and it doesn't suffer signal degradation like analogue waves. Its why you can download an HD film while having a crystal clear conversation on skype but still have shitty audio when using a wired phone on the same line.

 

[Andy the cook]

Does it react or only display that color? That looks like the default blue screen that is displayed when there is no input.

Maybe the TV is having an issue instead?

I've tried it with my ps3, ps4, and wiiu, but still the only time I get those bars is when the xrgb-mini is plugged in.

 

[balladofthewindfish]

I am going to do some more research about the image quality of Wii VC games. I hope I did not make a mistake by spending $400 buying every game worth playing on the service...

Anyway, what are my options to get the best visual quality out of my NES? I know that its best native signal is composite, but there must something I can do.

 

[sixteen-bit]

viletim's NESRGB is your best bet for improving video quality on NES.

 

[balladofthewindfish]

viletim's NESRGB is your best bet for improving video quality on NES.

Do you have any helpful resources for the layman on the NESRGB? I am lost among all the technical jargon.