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[komplanen]

But what's your threshold? The reason I ask is because the Framemeister adds about 24ms.

My Previous monitor had 30-something so with the new monitor and Framemeister it'd still be under that and I managed just fine. I guess I'm not that sensitive to it anymore, huh Also my TV has over 30 with modern consoles (all appropriate dynamic crap turned down). So I'll manage. Thanks for the tip. I'd rather play an upscaled game with 30ms of input lag than not play at all. However if I went with XRGB-3 and a CRT, what would the input lag look like then?

Is the SCART cable wired for the European standard or the Japanese? (If you don't know, it's probably European.) You'd have to get an adapter to use it with the Framemeister, which are commonly sold from the handful of online retailers who specialize in this stuff.

Yeah it's European since I'm from Europe Well cables are something I don't mind buying I guess. Only "retro" console I have right now is the PSOne (US) since I don't consider my older European consoles to be worth shit because of the PAL standard. If I'm gonna do retro gaming well it'd be a waste of money upscale some crappy 25/50FPS slowed down horse crap with black bars..

Also I guess the Framemeister and most of that company's products don't come with 230V wall warts so I'm gonna have to figure out that stuff as well.

Might have to slowly start buying that stuff so it doesn't all pile up into one huge bill.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

My Previous monitor had 30-something so with the new monitor and Framemeister it'd still be under that and I managed just fine. Also my TV has over 30 with modern consoles (all appropriate dynamic crap turned down). So I'll manage. Thanks for the tip. I'd rather play an upscaled game with 30ms of input lag than not play at all. However if I went with XRGB-3 and a CRT, what would the input lag look like then?

- The Framemeister adds about 24ms in all modes.
- The XRGB-3's B0 mode adds about 22ms in its full upscaler mode (1080p), has both VGA and DVI output, but has no scanlines.
- The XRGB-3's B1 mode has scanlines and only 2ms of lag, but only has 480p VGA output. That's perfect for a CRT monitor but might not look great on 1080p flat panels.

 

[Ramune]

I got a new VGA monitor for my Dreamcast. Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 200. Looks fantastic! May get a Hanzo so I can play the non-VGA games on it. Right now I have S-Video into the PVM just in case.

I got a $6 PlayStation Scart cable. Figure I'd try that out while I wait for my Genesis power mod. It looks really poor - either the scart cable is bad, the scart to BNC is bad, or something is up with the RGB on my PVM. Won't know until I get my Genesis power mod to do more testing (my guess is cheap cable)!

Top - Einhander 480i through PS2 component. Bottom - PSOne RGB scart.

Where did you get that cable, Play-Asia? You might have been unlucky like I have and gotten a dud cable. :/

 

[komplanen]

- The Framemeister adds about 24ms in all modes.
- The XRGB-3's B0 mode adds about 22ms in its full upscaler mode (1080p), has both VGA and DVI output, but has no scanlines.
- The XRGB-3's B1 mode has scanlines and only 2ms of lag, but only has 480p VGA output. That's perfect for a CRT monitor but might not look great on 1080p flat panels.

Thank you so much for your help. You've been more valuable than I can put into words I think ultimately I'll go with a Framemeister and its input lag because it's the solution that requires least amount of hassle (don't need to clear room for a CRT and I'm super anal about picture quality and hate the era of CRT fiddling with all the settings trying to get a geometrically perfect image). Also I figured that the Framemeister's HDMI output is probably the best for modern capture cards if I want to live stream or record video for YouTube. No need for cable splitting etc.

By the way, does the Framemeister allow for disabling the scanlines? I've been watching pictures with and without them and I'm not yet 100% certain which way I roll.

 

[Mercutio]

Thank you so much for your help. You've been more valuable than I can put into words I think ultimately I'll go with a Framemeister and its input lag because it's the solution that requires least amount of hassle (don't need to clear room for a CRT and I'm super anal about picture quality and hate the era of CRT fiddling with all the settings trying to get a geometrically perfect image). Also I figured that the Framemeister's HDMI output is probably the best for modern capture cards if I want to live stream or record video for YouTube. No need for cable splitting etc.

By the way, does the Framemeister allow for disabling the scanlines? I've been watching pictures with and without them and I'm not yet 100% certain which way I roll.

You don't have to do Scanlines on the Framemeister. I use them on some things (PC Engine and Genesis) and not on others (SNES or Saturn). Completely optional.

 

[Adam Blue]

Where did you get that cable, Play-Asia? You might have been unlucky like I have and gotten a dud cable. :/

This is what I got - seems to have gone up a dollar or two: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RGB-Scart-C...ideo_Game_Cables_Adapters&hash=item3f37724e93

I see other scart cables, but without the A/V guncon connector. I mentioned the quality to my friend and he advised adding capacitors or something - I dunno how that works, may give it a try.

 

[honeymustardn]

Yep, looks like there are a few pins without continuity. Now I face the tricky task of desoldering what I've done. Urgghh.

Managed to take it apart (badly) and put it back together. Now I get a solid white screen (no audio still), which is some progress I guess? I have no idea what to do now. Maybe someone else needs to take a look.

 

[televator]

OMG... OMG... A few minutes ago. I seached CL for XM29 just for shits and gigs, and then my eyes poped outta my head! Some fantastic human being is selling one in the same valley that I'm in!

I will have it tomorrow! A TV for dreamcast 480p and a TV for scanlines? ...How about both? Muhahahahahaaaaaaaaaa

 

[Adam Blue]

OMG... OMG... A few minutes ago. I seached CL for XM29 just for shits and gigs, and then my eyes poped outta my head! Some fantastic human being is selling one in the same valley that I'm in!

I will have it tomorrow! A TV for dreamcast 480p and a TV for scanlines? ...How about both? Muhahahahahaaaaaaaaaa

Lucky! I found one on CL a few states over...but there's no practical way for me to get it. The drive would cost more than I want to pay for the TV. I think. I dunno.

 

[Peagles]

Managed to take it apart (badly) and put it back together. Now I get a solid white screen (no audio still), which is some progress I guess? I have no idea what to do now. Maybe someone else needs to take a look.

Maybe. There's the slim possibility your board is faulty, but otherwise it's down to your soldering. Recheck the guide, if every connection is at the correct orientation, re-check your soldering/connectivity. I empathise with your frustration but speaking from experience you just need to keep at it. However, if you think in doing so you'll break it, then get another set of eyes (and steady hands) on it.

 

[baphomet]

OMG... OMG... A few minutes ago. I seached CL for XM29 just for shits and gigs, and then my eyes poped outta my head! Some fantastic human being is selling one in the same valley that I'm in!

I will have it tomorrow! A TV for dreamcast 480p and a TV for scanlines? ...How about both? Muhahahahahaaaaaaaaaa

Can't beat that. Just make sure you bring something to test it with.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I would've jumped on the one in Florida that was posted here a few weeks ago, but I had no way to transport it, and I'd have to move it again in the near future since I want to get out of my apartment soon.

Someday.

 

[televator]

Can't beat that. Just make sure you bring something to test it with.

Dude has his NES RGB and his Neo Geo to show me it working. I suppose I could borrow his bnc connector and hook up one of the other geneses I have laying around. I could try the Saturn too.

Lucky! I found one on CL a few states over...but there's no practical way for me to get it. The drive would cost more than I want to pay for the TV. I think. I dunno.

Yeah comming from car enthusiasm myself, its one of those things than I'm willing to not let too many things stop me from acquiring it. I have rare car shit from Japan that only as many as I can count on one hand exist in the US. It also helps to have a buddy with a truck who also shares in the enthusiasm. Its much harder now that my income is more restricted these days though.

 

[sixteen-bit]

OMG... OMG... A few minutes ago. I seached CL for XM29 just for shits and gigs, and then my eyes poped outta my head! Some fantastic human being is selling one in the same valley that I'm in!

I will have it tomorrow! A TV for dreamcast 480p and a TV for scanlines? ...How about both? Muhahahahahaaaaaaaaaa

sheeeit

congrats

 

[televator]

Just got cock blocked big time . Dude texted me back a few minutes ago. His best friend just saw it and he's gonna sell it to him..... FFFFFFffffffffffffuck

This TV dares to elude me?! Its becomming my white whale.

 

[Peagles]

Fuck that.

Don't worry, it wasn't meant to be then. The geometry and convergence is probably all sorts of messed up and not worth it. You'll find the perfect XM29 next time.

 

[sixteen-bit]

dat emotional rollercoaster

 

[televator]

To put it into more perspective: This is the second time I've been inches away from acquiring it. The first time, they (Yeah, plural. There were 3 sets) were literally right in front of me, but I was prohibited from directly buying them because of some stupid fucking rules at my work place.

ArrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrgh! I'm gonna lose my fucking mind!

Next time this TV shows up, I might have to hurt people. Lol

 

[theSlacker]

Next time this TV shows up, I might have to hurt people. Lol

Why wait? Hurt people now, get tv later.

 

[Peagles]

Why wait? Hurt people now, get tv later.

Orrr... hurt someone who owns said TV, then take it from them!

 

[televator]

Fuck that.

Don't worry, it wasn't meant to be then. The geometry and convergence is probably all sorts of messed up and not worth it. You'll find the perfect XM29 next time.

Dude sounded like a pro AV guy... thanks for trying to make me see a bright side, Peagles.

Haha, no worries. I will own an XM29. I seem to find them somewhat frequently for now. Its just a matter of time.

 

[Peagles]

Dude sounded like a pro AV guy... thanks for trying to make me see a bright side, Peagles.

Haha, no worries. I will own an XM29. I seem to find them somewhat frequently for now. Its just a matter of time.

I just feel so gutted for you. Luckily there seem to be a few in your area so you're right, it's just a matter of time. The perfect XM29 will fall into your arms and you will hug it for days!

 

[Adam Blue]

Dude sounded like a pro AV guy... thanks for trying to make me see a bright side, Peagles.

Haha, no worries. I will own an XM29. I seem to find them somewhat frequently for now. Its just a matter of time.

Ah man...that would destroy me. I'm so obsessed with getting the best for my retro consoles. It's taking over my life right now.

 

[IrishNinja]

it's gonna happen, televators. keep looking & you'll find the one man!

 

[Gruso]

Anyone running a Bang & Olufsen MX4000 or similar? They've only just come onto my radar. Being a consumer set, I realise it won't hold a candle to a broadcast monitor (or even a consumer Trinitron according to many). But they still look to be a beautiful display in their own right.

http://www.beoworld.org/prod_details.asp?pid=635

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqkVH_TbfMA

There are a couple on the market in my area... very tempting. An RGB modded N64 is the most modern thing I'll be running.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I've heard good things.
also i wish futurematt5 would upload more frequently, lol

 

[televator]

Ah man...that would destroy me. I'm so obsessed with getting the best for my retro consoles. It's taking over my life right now.

Scary but true for me as well. Let's just say everything within a 16 hour round trip car drive is now on my radar. Somewheres oer de horizon hides de great whale. Arrrrr!

 

[Later Alligator]

is there a known issue with the genesis to a framemeister via composite?

I have mine connected that way while i wait for my scart to 8 pin connector to show up and the colors are all messed up. connect it straight to the receiver and it looks fine....

also the genesis via scart to my old lekeng upscaler and it looks fine as well, its just the framemeister where the colors get messed.

snes, n64, nes, dreamcast, etc... via composite into the framemeister work fine, its just the genesis that does this

 

[IrishNinja]

is there a known issue with the genesis to a framemeister via composite?

yes
it's the best system but it looks like butt on composite

 

[sixteen-bit]

It's an XRGB not XComposite

 

[STG!]

Ah man...that would destroy me. I'm so obsessed with getting the best for my retro consoles. It's taking over my life right now.

This sounds like me 14-15 years ago when I fully made the switch to RGB.

As for the guy looking for an XM29, you'll find it, just make sure the condition of it is to your liking. And test it out, as I've come across some pretty beat up ones out there. I truly lucked out with mine as it was basically new: the fellow I bought it from used it only once before putting it back in the box. He bought a plasma about a week or two later to use with his pro-audio displays/demonstrations. Really cool line of work his company was involved in, after I loaded up the monitor we ended up talking a bit about music production and sound installations.

That was certainly worth the 2+ hour trip in rush hour traffic on a Friday.

 

[IrishNinja]

It's an XRGB not XComposite

oh man i would totally buy an XComposite as a gag gift for some friends

 

[sixteen-bit]

oh man i would totally buy an XComposite as a gag gift for some friends

ultimate troll would be to get the proper font and typeface and similar graphical design that micomsoft uses and design a whole box and everything

 

[Sixfortyfive]

That XRGB-1 listing still has no bids and ends in about 5 hours.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390871426499&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1653

 

[televator]

That XRGB-1 listing still has no bids and ends in about 5 hours.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390871426499&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1653

What does it lack against the 3? At that price, I might get it in case I ever have need of one.

Also, I scrolled down and saw the price on those GC comp cables. Sweet ravioli, I'm lucky to have mine with original box for nowhere near that price!

 

[baphomet]

So I finally got a few Super Emotias in to downscale content to 240p. Just for fun I decided to run the 240p through the XRGB Mini upscaling it back to 720p and adding scanlines. Honestly it looked pretty damn cool. Especially stuff like Geometry Wars and Castle Crashers in true 240p was neat.

I also ran some stuff out to my PVMs because that's obviously how it'll be used (mostly running shmups and things like that to add scanlines back in). Here's a few shots of some stuff just showing how it looks. SFxT is mainly just to show a normally 1080p game in 240p.

Make sure to look at them in original resolution to see all the detail(or lack thereof).

 

[Later Alligator]

yes
it's the best system but it looks like butt on composite

im aware of that

how about with the colors looking green/blue instead of normal? any workaround for this?

It's an XRGB not XComposite

im also aware of that

as i said, im just hooking it up this way while my euro scart to mini 8 pin connector ships, it took longer to arrive then my xrgb from japan

 

[Gruso]

Yesssss.

 

[baphomet]

Yesssss.

Very nice. Any idea if that model has the deinterlace option?

 

[Gruso]

According to all my research it does.

Picking it up Friday night. Can't wait!

 

[antibolo]

is there a known issue with the genesis to a framemeister via composite?

I have mine connected that way while i wait for my scart to 8 pin connector to show up and the colors are all messed up. connect it straight to the receiver and it looks fine....

also the genesis via scart to my old lekeng upscaler and it looks fine as well, its just the framemeister where the colors get messed.

snes, n64, nes, dreamcast, etc... via composite into the framemeister work fine, its just the genesis that does this

The majority of Genesis/Megadrive models have an infamously awful composite output that you absolutely want to avoid at all costs (for RGB you need a raw sync cable because the awfulness of the composite will still shit the bed otherwise).

 

[Exclamation-One]

I'm curious about something. How do most of the people in this thread feel about 'enhancing' old / retro games through filters like SweetFX?

Here is an example from Shovel Knight:

LARGE VERSION

Personally I think this looks amazing, but I'm sure there are a lot of purists who'd scoff at the idea of adding bloom / Gaussian blur to games that didn't have it in mind.

What is more important? Accuracy, or good-looking visuals?

 

[sixteen-bit]

What is more important? Accuracy, or good-looking visuals?

not mutually exclusive

 

[antibolo]

I think that looks terrible. The HUD text in particular looks like it's been shaken or something.

 

[Exclamation-One]

I think that looks terrible. The HUD text in particular looks like it's been shaken or something.

No way to avoid this, as far as I know. Fortunately, a few bits of text are the only place the game looks garbled.

not mutually exclusive

How do you mean? I'm talking about if someone were to tweak the colors on their old television set on an individual basis for each game (i.e. dark and atmospheric for Super Metroid vs. saturated colors for Mario 64).

 

[lostinblue]

That looks horrible.

There are ways to downsample something and/or work out the pixel alignment just so the font could have a change but that is a shit way to do it. SweetFX isn't meant to do that. They either had to "mask" and leave that out of the processed area (and if there's on screen text then it's screwed), render it separatedly or as it is, it sucks, needs work.

It looks like myopia.

Scanlines are fine (they don't look right if one doesn't click the larger version though because they didn't choose a good scaling relation while downsampling), but the rest is just ugh.

Also, for reference, depending on how bright you set them to, CRT's have that blooming going on naturally:

Same TV, different brightness settings.

They're trying to recreate that of course, but if I want that I'll just use a CRT.

 

[lostinblue]

How do you mean? I'm talking about if someone were to tweak the colors on their old television set on an individual basis for each game (i.e. dark and atmospheric for Super Metroid vs. saturated colors for Mario 64).

You sound like those dudes who buy an expensive TV who's almost calibrated out of the box and then declare "oh, but I want to see more RED... I'll just tweak this setting to the max", everything is connected when it comes to image, you pull a red injection here just so that looks very red and suddenly skin tones are orange.


SNES and N64 didn't have severely limited palettes so the colors on-screen are no doubt the intended ones... If they wanted to make Super Metroid darker they would - they didn't.


Calibrate range, make sure blacks are black and whites are white, as well as no black and white crush, as for tweaking it individually past messing with the brightness setting... I say don't... Unless you're calibrating your TV, then it's fine, but calibrating is not "I think this needs more blue!".

Accurate is almost always better, I mean tweaking the colors to no end is not much different than applying filters on a 2D game, of course there can be some poster childs of "it doesn't look so bad", but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't the intended vision behind it. Accuracy can be heavily discussed though, I believe retro games are too colorfully bright without scanlines for instance:

What I mean is, of course dudes doing games in the 80's and 90's took that into account, they would pitch a brighter green than they would otherwise because they knew the TV would change it; similarly they wouldn't use a tone as dark as they would otherwise for the very same reason.

Yeah, you can compensate palette for 240p in a pretty universal way, just make it dimmer... (game by game basis would be silly, just tweak some settings and use them all across the board). But I say you're better off adding scanlines.

EDIT: Oops, double post.

 

[Khaz]

I'm curious about something. How do most of the people in this thread feel about 'enhancing' old / retro games through filters like SweetFX?

Here is an example from Shovel Knight:

LARGE VERSION

Personally I think this looks amazing, but I'm sure there are a lot of purists who'd scoff at the idea of adding bloom / Gaussian blur to games that didn't have it in mind.

What is more important? Accuracy, or good-looking visuals?

Accurate visuals are good looking. What are you trying to say?



[edit] Composite, RF or whatever CVBS/NTSC mess you have in mind is not an accurate rendition of pre-HD home consoles visuals.

 

[Lettuce]

RetroArch has some nice bloom/glow shaders now that help the display pop a bit more....

 

[lostinblue]

Regarding Super Metroid:

I'd say scanlines are more "accurate".

RetroArch has some nice bloom/glow shaders now that help the display pop a bit more....

I would look good if it wasn't for the blurry look and the blurry chromanoise/shine/bloomy effect on lower part, after the object stops and it starts polluting the black.

Sigh... I hate those filters, they always screw up more often than not.